Mechanical vs electrical vario needles [Archive]

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October 2nd 19, 03:02 PM

Hi all,

I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.

On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.

But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.

I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?

[email protected]

October 2nd 19, 04:37 PM

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 3:02:58 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
>
> On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
>
> But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
>
> I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?

I use an LXNAV electronic vario and a Borgelt B40 stepper motor needle vario as backup. I have had absolutely no problem seeing the display in the LXNAV variometer in any situation from dull Scotland to bright South Africa.

JS[_5_]

October 2nd 19, 04:42 PM

Everyone will find a difference in their preference, but I find the varios without a needle to be wunderschoen.
There's Air-Glide S and ClearNav square display vario in the 29 (only needles are on ALT and ASI in that one) and we put an S100 in the Duo.
Once you're at one with the audio you don't look at the thing as much anyway.
But some pilots miss glancing at the angle of the mechanical needle.
An interesting combination is the LX S3 or S7 (depending on your needs) which have an orange mechanical needle, plus a display in the middle. Flown with both, and set them up to sound just like a Cambridge 302.
A great feature in new varios is the AHRS. Besides the backup for the once in a million cloud encounter, the compass is more accurate than any mechanical compass I've ever seen, even in turns and varied speeds.... You may be able to throw the mechanical thing in the bin, but read your aircraft's documentation first.
Jim

Tango Eight

October 2nd 19, 05:17 PM

With good audio, all I ever look at is the averager.

T8

[email protected]

October 2nd 19, 05:44 PM

Out of the electronic displays, the vario needle of the AirGlide S is the easiest to read in direct sunlight (see picture of last page at https://www.segelflug.de/tests/LS8/LS8.pdf). It has superior contrast compared to the recent LXNav varios (V8/S8 etc.).

The square ClearNav-Vario display also offers good contrast, but no classic needle anymore. It's a good vario. But for us customers in central Europe, it is more or less out of choice now due to a lack in customer support.

[email protected]

October 2nd 19, 07:23 PM

With the AirGlide, I get vario, wind direction, and vector to next turn point all in one glance. I listen to, but don't really look at the other vario with a needle except to crosscheck the climb rate.

Richard Pfiffner[_2_]

October 2nd 19, 10:27 PM

Nick Gilbert[_2_]

October 2nd 19, 10:41 PM

LX EOS has a needle also.

Nick.

On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 6:57:24 AM UTC+9:30, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:02:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
> >
> > On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
> >
> > But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
> >
> > I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?
>
> If you want a needle you could get an LXNAV V7, but the S8(57mm) S80(80mm) or S10, S100 are much nice and can be customized easily.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/lxnav_vario.htm
>
>
> The Air-Avionics is also a very nice vario.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/air_glide.htm
>
> I fly with S8, and Air-Avionics Display S, ISU
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

kirk.stant

October 2nd 19, 11:42 PM

Best of both worlds, especially as a backup:

https://www.westerboer.de/PDF/VW1000/VW1000_EN.pdf

Needle with just enough other digital data to be useful. Best electronic TE I've flown with - easy to have redundant TE that way.

Worth a look.

Kirk
66

[email protected]

October 3rd 19, 12:14 AM

I loved my Cambridge LNAV, which has a needle (and, BTW, will sell it, the GPS-NAV Model 20, and all accoutrements, including the panel mount for the old Compaq 1500 running GlideNavigator--which I still have several of!!).

I replaced it with a CNv with a square digital display. It's marvelous for centering thermals and has a superb audio. The UI sucks and the digital needle/edge display is not to my liking. The latter is annoying and not as quick to understand at a glance when both the needle and the scale are moving at the same time. I've love to have the separate analog display but don't feel like paying up just to get what I used to have as standard. I don't miss it much but it simply provides less instantly understandable information than the "old way". Progress.

Chip Bearden

October 3rd 19, 06:25 AM

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:02:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
>
> On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
>
> But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
>
> I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?

I think you are referring to a digital vs an analog vario. Analog signal processing has severe limitations, but if you are familiar with how they respond, you mentally interpret the presentation. Having flown one season with the LX system, and a couple of seasons with the Butterfly, I can't say that digital vs analog is clearly superior. You get more information with the digital, but does it really help you? The most helpful data I get is the relative lift as you circle, which can help you center a thermal.

I am also flying with a digital altimeter, a Garmin G5. This can be MORE useful than a vario when entering a thermal, as its altitude strip accurately shows your climb rate, and is unaffected by gusts, as far as I can see.

The future is in digital instrumentation, so we need to become accustomed to it. Plus, digital varios can be upgraded easily with software - this is not the case with analog circuitry.

Tom

krasw

October 3rd 19, 08:06 AM

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 08:25:26 UTC+3, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:02:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
> >
> > On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
> >
> > But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
> >
> > I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?
>
> I think you are referring to a digital vs an analog vario. Analog signal processing has severe limitations, but if you are familiar with how they respond, you mentally interpret the presentation. Having flown one season with the LX system, and a couple of seasons with the Butterfly, I can't say that digital vs analog is clearly superior. You get more information with the digital, but does it really help you? The most helpful data I get is the relative lift as you circle, which can help you center a thermal.
>
> I am also flying with a digital altimeter, a Garmin G5. This can be MORE useful than a vario when entering a thermal, as its altitude strip accurately shows your climb rate, and is unaffected by gusts, as far as I can see.
>
> The future is in digital instrumentation, so we need to become accustomed to it. Plus, digital varios can be upgraded easily with software - this is not the case with analog circuitry.
>
> Tom

AFAIK all modern varios are digital in a sense that they do pressure signal processing digitally, meaning that pressure sensor outputs are converted into bits. We are talking here about how to display those bits to pilot, by using numbers, pointers on LCD-display, or "analogue way" with stepper motors driving mechanical needle. My experience is that to get as readable LCD image of analogue instrument as the real thing you need a very expensive display.

Dan Marotta

October 3rd 19, 03:26 PM

I'm fortunate to have the panel space for TWO ClearNav vario displays,
one analog needle and one digital.Â* I really like the thermal assistant
on the digital display, it's way better than the one on my wife's XCSoar
which appears to be a simple polar plot of the lift strength around the
circle.Â* I like the analog needle driven by a stepper motor on the
"analog" display.Â* But their main function for me is the speed to fly
information and, especially, the audio.

I also have a 57mm (yes, I speak metric on occasion) Winter vario which
I also look at on occasion.Â* Both the CN and the Winter are very closely
in agreement.

As to which is better...Â* Way back in the dark ages when I was in
engineering school, we had access to a gigantic IBM computer which we
could program via punch cards which were submitted for batch
processing.Â* But, to do our real work, we used slide rules, being taught
that 3 significant digits (the last of which was interpolated visually)
was sufficient to build the Golden Gate Bridge and the SR-71.Â* Beyond
that it's simply numbers.

On 10/2/2019 11:25 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:02:58 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
>>
>> On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
>>
>> But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
>>
>> I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?
> I think you are referring to a digital vs an analog vario. Analog signal processing has severe limitations, but if you are familiar with how they respond, you mentally interpret the presentation. Having flown one season with the LX system, and a couple of seasons with the Butterfly, I can't say that digital vs analog is clearly superior. You get more information with the digital, but does it really help you? The most helpful data I get is the relative lift as you circle, which can help you center a thermal.
>
> I am also flying with a digital altimeter, a Garmin G5. This can be MORE useful than a vario when entering a thermal, as its altitude strip accurately shows your climb rate, and is unaffected by gusts, as far as I can see.
>
> The future is in digital instrumentation, so we need to become accustomed to it. Plus, digital varios can be upgraded easily with software - this is not the case with analog circuitry.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

Bob Youngblood

October 4th 19, 12:26 AM

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 10:02:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering buying a new vario, but am stuck deciding between the new generation of LXNAV/Airglide varios with entirely electronic displays, or a Cambridge/Borgelt type with a mechanical needle.
>
> On one hand, with a pure display vario, there are so many more features available. AHRS, multiple needles displayed, wind readouts.
>
> But, I can imagine they're difficult to read in direct sunlight, and a mechanical needle vario is much more readable from a quick glance. After all, most other instruments in the cockpit are all mechanical needles.
>
> I'm curious to your experiences. Do you prefer the new style with all the bells and whistles, or a more traditional vario?

Someone told you to get an LX S7, this is a great tool, you do not need all the fancy stuff. Why not combine the S7 with a mechanical an you will be just fine.

Dan Daly[_2_]

October 4th 19, 12:43 AM

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:14:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I loved my Cambridge LNAV, which has a needle (and, BTW, will sell it, the GPS-NAV Model 20, and all accoutrements, including the panel mount for the old Compaq 1500 running GlideNavigator--which I still have several of!!).
>
> I replaced it with a CNv with a square digital display. It's marvelous for centering thermals and has a superb audio. The UI sucks and the digital needle/edge display is not to my liking. The latter is annoying and not as quick to understand at a glance when both the needle and the scale are moving at the same time. I've love to have the separate analog display but don't feel like paying up just to get what I used to have as standard. I don't miss it much but it simply provides less instantly understandable information than the "old way". Progress.
>
> Chip Bearden

I agree with CNv edge display comments... I wonder if there is a market for a 57mm display with just a mechanical needle driven by a step motor... I'd buy one. I have an LX V3 and my eyes go to it, not the square display.

Dan Marotta

October 4th 19, 01:53 AM

A Cambridge 302 might suit your needs.Â* I haven't had one in several
years but, IIRC, it was simply an electric vario with the needle run by
a stepper motor.Â* It was really good, too!

On 10/3/2019 5:43 PM, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:14:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>> I loved my Cambridge LNAV, which has a needle (and, BTW, will sell it, the GPS-NAV Model 20, and all accoutrements, including the panel mount for the old Compaq 1500 running GlideNavigator--which I still have several of!!).
>>
>> I replaced it with a CNv with a square digital display. It's marvelous for centering thermals and has a superb audio. The UI sucks and the digital needle/edge display is not to my liking. The latter is annoying and not as quick to understand at a glance when both the needle and the scale are moving at the same time. I've love to have the separate analog display but don't feel like paying up just to get what I used to have as standard. I don't miss it much but it simply provides less instantly understandable information than the "old way". Progress.
>>
>> Chip Bearden
> I agree with CNv edge display comments... I wonder if there is a market for a 57mm display with just a mechanical needle driven by a step motor... I'd buy one. I have an LX V3 and my eyes go to it, not the square display.

--
Dan, 5J

Roy B.

October 9th 19, 01:29 PM

Dan (5J)
I was talking to some of our club's Junior members (ages 12- 18) once and mentioned a "slide rule". One of the kids asked, "what's a slide rule?" Before I could answer another kid said "It's an old calculating thing - kinda like an abacus."

Sorry, but we are OLD.

I've used all types of varios, including full electronic, and electronic with stepper motor. As long as they move linearly with my 57 mm Winter I have found no difference. While I fly with an LX V9 now, I think the best vario I ever had was my old Cambridge 302. It was great and remained immediately responsive in very weak conditions when you were fighting for survival and a half or a third knot mattered. They did not keep pace as a logger - but they were and remain a great vario.
ROY

Tango Eight

October 9th 19, 02:18 PM

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 8:29:35 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> Dan (5J)
> I was talking to some of our club's Junior members (ages 12- 18) once and mentioned a "slide rule". One of the kids asked, "what's a slide rule?" Before I could answer another kid said "It's an old calculating thing - kinda like an abacus."
>
> Sorry, but we are OLD.
>
> I've used all types of varios, including full electronic, and electronic with stepper motor. As long as they move linearly with my 57 mm Winter I have found no difference. While I fly with an LX V9 now, I think the best vario I ever had was my old Cambridge 302. It was great and remained immediately responsive in very weak conditions when you were fighting for survival and a half or a third knot mattered. They did not keep pace as a logger - but they were and remain a great vario.
> ROY

glidersource.com Usually a few 302s and 303s available. I have a good 302 (with correct gps date) and a pair of 303 displays I no longer need. Will work better in your glider than on my shelf.

Evan Ludeman