Can only CFIs teach flying?

[jp]

Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:23:24 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?

You have to define 'instruct.'

[Duster[_2_]]

Of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQGFLxadGiM

[Dan Marotta]

I taught my wife to fly and I'm not, and don't want to be, a CFI.

Can she get a license based upon my instruction?Â* No.Â* Can she fly the
airplane and the glider?Â* Yes.Â* She does not want to do takeoffs and
landings, but since she took instruction up to solo with a CFI and a
CFI-G, I have no doubt she can get us on the ground if necessary.

On 10/4/2019 5:56 PM, wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:23:24 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
>> Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?
> You have to define 'instruct.'

--
Dan, 5J

[SoaringXCellence]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 4:23:24 PM UTC-7, jp wrote:
> Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?

The answer is, it depends on the level of training and whether the "student" needs to log instruction:

(all answers are for the USA)

1. If a pilot is rated and wants to get "instruction" in cross country, or another aspect of soaring, then the "instructor" does not need to be rated, and the "student" simply logs PIC time.

2. If there is a regulatory requirement to log training time, then most times the one providing instruction must be a CFI.

3. If the one receiving loggable instruction is not able to act as PIC (out of currency or not rated) then the instructor must be a CFI.

4. If a student rated pilot has another person in the glider, that person can only be a CFI. Anyone else would constitute a passenger that is prohibited for the Student Pilot.

Mike B. (CFI, CFII, MEI, CFI-G and former DPE for all of that)

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Read Mike's post twice! Right on.

Over the decades as a CFI in gliders and airplanes, I have spent many ground and flight hours "undoing" some very poor skills and serious misunderstandings regarding the aeronautical knowledge of many student pilots as well as airplane rated transition to glider pilots who were "taught" by non-CFI's..

Certificated Flight Instructors carefully plan their ground and flight lessons and develop an "economy of words" for the topics they teach because this first bit of learning is usually what many pilots will revert to in times of stress, and that stress is often felt during a typical aerotow and landing.

This is the "Law of Primacy."

As a Designated Pilot Examiner I've seen dangerously large landing patterns, too much reference to the instruments, not clearing turns or not looking outside for other aircraft or reading the sky for clues regarding lift and sink. The worst is any pilot encountering sink in the landing pattern or the drop from a wind gradient on short final and pulling back on the stick (pitching up) in both scenarios! Yikes!

In teaching beginning cross-country soaring I've see poor thermaling technique, inability to "read the sky"and "inaccurate" accuracy landings -- essential skills for XC and why I offer a "Rusty Pilot" course and also encourage / conduct the Bronze Badge test.

[[email protected]]

There is one common, required logbook endorsement unique to the soaring community that doesn't have to be issued by an instructor. Do any glider only rated pilots know what it is?

DT

[Bruce Hoult]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 3:56:29 PM UTC+13, wrote:
> There is one common, required logbook endorsement unique to the soaring community that doesn't have to be issued by an instructor. Do any glider only rated pilots know what it is?

There is the DI duplicate control check, but that's in the aircraft's logbook, not the pilot's.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 10:56:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> There is one common, required logbook endorsement unique to the soaring community that doesn't have to be issued by an instructor. Do any glider only rated pilots know what it is?
>
> DT

Tow endorsement

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:23:24 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?

If you are a captain flying part 121 YES YOU CAN

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:23:24 PM UTC-4, jp wrote:
> Is it legal for non-CFIs to instruct others to fly?

JP Contact me off-line for my thoughts on your inquiry.

smanley @ wisc dot edu or 608 222 6843 or Skype "scooter.manley"

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 2:48:17 AM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 10:56:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > There is one common, required logbook endorsement unique to the soaring community that doesn't have to be issued by an instructor. Do any glider only rated pilots know what it is?
> >
> > DT
>
> Tow endorsement

Yes, another current towpilot can endorse the towing instruction for the initial and the 24 month recurrent endorsement (as needed) but the mandatory GLIDER TRAINING requirement in FAR 61.69 for the initial towpilot endorsement must be logged with a CFIG.

I just gave the FAR 61.69 ground and flight instruction in my Cessna 182 towplane and the glider training in my ASK-13 to 6 brand new towpilots for FREE at Marfa in southwest Texas. Like my free checkrides for glider flight instructor (Initial and Renewal), we obviously cannot get aloft without good tow pilots.

[[email protected]]

I’ll just touch on the part you don’t ask: No it’s not a good idea. It’s fun to show friends and family a little about how things work while flying, but hard core instruction? No way - Our wonderful sport is dangerous enough as is.

Cheers,
Bruno -B4

[WB]

Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.

We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.

T8

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 5:42:07 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> > Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
>
> We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
>
> T8

Poor choice of words or explanation? If you roll a G103 slow enough you will be feeding in top rudder to keep the nose from falling through. However the rudder has not swapped function with elevator. I flew a 10 hour aerobatic course with Les Horvath. When I thought he would sign my logbook he told me he was not a CFIG so could not sign the book. You can certainly learn much from non-CFIG's like XC flying. But for the basics through private I would pick a CFIG with grey hair.

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:24:26 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 5:42:07 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> > > Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
> >
> > We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
> >
> > T8
>
> Poor choice of words or explanation? If you roll a G103 slow enough you will be feeding in top rudder to keep the nose from falling through. However the rudder has not swapped function with elevator. I flew a 10 hour aerobatic course with Les Horvath. When I thought he would sign my logbook he told me he was not a CFIG so could not sign the book. You can certainly learn much from non-CFIG's like XC flying. But for the basics through private I would pick a CFIG with grey hair.

You fed in the top rudder to keep the nose from yawing through :-).

T8

[Deming Gray]

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:57:54 AM UTC-4, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 2:48:17 AM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 10:56:29 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > There is one common, required logbook endorsement unique to the soaring community that doesn't have to be issued by an instructor. Do any glider only rated pilots know what it is?
> > >
> > > DT
> >
> > Tow endorsement
>
> Yes, another current towpilot can endorse the towing instruction for the initial and the 24 month recurrent endorsement (as needed) but the mandatory GLIDER TRAINING requirement in FAR 61.69 for the initial towpilot endorsement must be logged with a CFIG.
>
> I just gave the FAR 61.69 ground and flight instruction in my Cessna 182 towplane and the glider training in my ASK-13 to 6 brand new towpilots for FREE at Marfa in southwest Texas. Like my free checkrides for glider flight instructor (Initial and Renewal), we obviously cannot get aloft without good tow pilots.

Hi Burt,

I am very interested in your tow pilot course. I tow for the Civil Air Patrol in C-182 aircraft now. I would enjoy reading your tow pilot training material. I have read the Bob Warner book on towing gliders. I also am interested in coming to Marfa to fly my ASW20B soon. I would appreciate any information you may have regarding glider flying at Marfa too. Thanks, Deming

[Dan Marotta]

I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward.Â*
So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
horizontal components of lift.

I read a story on one of the aviation newsletters recently where a young
FAA inspector was riding jump seat in an airliner.Â* As they waited for
takeoff clearance, she asked the captain which controlled speed, the
elevators or throttle.Â* Then the captain said that the throttles
controlled speed, she corrected him saying that throttle controls
altitude and elevator controls speed.

The captain thought about that and then said to the copilot:Â* " When
we're cleared for takeoff, I'll push the yoke full forward and, when we
attain takeoff speed, you push the throttles up so we can get
airborne."Â* The moral - what they taught you in class ain't always the
way it works in reality.

On 10/5/2019 6:42 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
>> Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
> We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
>
> T8

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

Dan,

The reference frame is important. It's much easier to teach and discuss what's happening when we use the aircraft as the frame of reference.

We try hard to teach what happens in reality.

-Evan

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 12:07:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
> elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward..Â*
> So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
> horizontal components of lift.
>
> I read a story on one of the aviation newsletters recently where a young
> FAA inspector was riding jump seat in an airliner.Â* As they waited for
> takeoff clearance, she asked the captain which controlled speed, the
> elevators or throttle.Â* Then the captain said that the throttles
> controlled speed, she corrected him saying that throttle controls
> altitude and elevator controls speed.
>
> The captain thought about that and then said to the copilot:Â* " When
> we're cleared for takeoff, I'll push the yoke full forward and, when we
> attain takeoff speed, you push the throttles up so we can get
> airborne."Â* The moral - what they taught you in class ain't always the
> way it works in reality.
>
> On 10/5/2019 6:42 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> >> Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
> > We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
> >
> > T8
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Thread drift light on here.
When your paying for and getting training you have to search out good instructors you can connect with.
When I was getting my initial Cezzna training in Broomfield Colorado { Jeffco } in 1983 I had a instructor that was extremely nervous and didn't have a good feel for the airplane, I had been flying airplanes like a Cezzna T210 and V Tail Beechcraft Bonanza since I was about 13, so I kinda had a good feel for how things were suppose to go.
I don't know how that guy ever got his CFI rating. He seems to be scared to me!
That said I've been very fortunate to have had some really excellent instructors through out my career, not all were CFI rated.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 12:07:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
> elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward..Â*
> So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
> horizontal components of lift.
>
> I read a story on one of the aviation newsletters recently where a young
> FAA inspector was riding jump seat in an airliner.Â* As they waited for
> takeoff clearance, she asked the captain which controlled speed, the
> elevators or throttle.Â* Then the captain said that the throttles
> controlled speed, she corrected him saying that throttle controls
> altitude and elevator controls speed.
>
> The captain thought about that and then said to the copilot:Â* " When
> we're cleared for takeoff, I'll push the yoke full forward and, when we
> attain takeoff speed, you push the throttles up so we can get
> airborne."Â* The moral - what they taught you in class ain't always the
> way it works in reality.
>
> On 10/5/2019 6:42 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> >> Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
> > We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
> >
> > T8
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Well stated Dan, don't you just love it when the so called know it all eats a bit of humble pie!

[5Z]

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 12:31:37 PM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 12:07:25 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
> > elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward.Â*
> > So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
> > horizontal components of lift.
> >
> > I read a story on one of the aviation newsletters recently where a young
> > FAA inspector was riding jump seat in an airliner.Â* As they waited for
> > takeoff clearance, she asked the captain which controlled speed, the
> > elevators or throttle.Â* Then the captain said that the throttles
> > controlled speed, she corrected him saying that throttle controls
> > altitude and elevator controls speed.
> >
> > The captain thought about that and then said to the copilot:Â* " When
> > we're cleared for takeoff, I'll push the yoke full forward and, when we
> > attain takeoff speed, you push the throttles up so we can get
> > airborne."Â* The moral - what they taught you in class ain't always the
> > way it works in reality.
> >
> > On 10/5/2019 6:42 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 6:59:20 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> > >> Even CFI’s sometimes put out some really bad info. A local old timer CFI was notorious for teaching students that if they have an engine fail on takeoff, that they could easily make a turn back to the field at low altitude by holding the wings level and doing a 180 with just the rudder! I actually heard this guy teaching that and his whole explanation of why it should work.
> > > We had a local 'barnstormer', a charming and persuasive fellow, convince a few of our student pilots that in a steep enough turn, the rudder and elevator swap functions. And of course, once they'd bought that explanation, they really didn't want to let go.
> > >
> > > T8
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Well stated Dan, don't you just love it when the so called know it all eats a bit of humble pie!

But.... When on final approach, the elevator does control airspeed and throttle (spoilers) the altitude (rate of descent). There's a lot of nuance to flying well. :-)

Tom

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 5:07:25 AM UTC+13, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
> elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward..Â*
> So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
> horizontal components of lift.

If you are flying straight and level and then roll into a 90 degree bank while keeping the same elevator position then you will enjoy turning with 1G of centripetal acceleration. Until the nose falls through. And then you'll enjoy a 1G pullout (more as the speed builds).

The only way you can *not* turn in that 90 degree bank is if you actually moved the stick forward to the position that would give you a zero-G pushover in level flight.

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 3:28:04 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 5:07:25 AM UTC+13, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or down
> > elevator, the plane won't turn.Â* The nose will simply knife downward.Â*
> > So, am I clinging to something?Â* Think vectors and the vertical and
> > horizontal components of lift.
>
> If you are flying straight and level and then roll into a 90 degree bank while keeping the same elevator position then you will enjoy turning with 1G of centripetal acceleration. Until the nose falls through. And then you'll enjoy a 1G pullout (more as the speed builds).
>
> The only way you can *not* turn in that 90 degree bank is if you actually moved the stick forward to the position that would give you a zero-G pushover in level flight.

You haven't tried explaining this to a student, have you? :-)

Here's what really happens if you bank to 90 degrees while holding the elevator control in one place: the nose drops starts dropping the moment you begin to bank, the aircraft begins to accelerate and the g forces increase. There is -no- period of time that "you will enjoy turning at 1G of centripetal acceleration."

Langewiesche (Stick and Rudder) has it right. Think of the elevator control as your angle of attack control. Chapter one, "How a wing is flown". What a great place to start the explanation of the art of flying.

best,
Evan Ludeman

[James Lambert]

At 11:44 08 October 2019, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 3:28:04 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 5:07:25 AM UTC+13, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> > I can roll up into a 90 degree bank and, if I don't apply up or
down=20
>> > elevator, the plane won't turn.=C2=A0 The nose will simply knife
>downwa=
>rd.=C2=A0=20
>> > So, am I clinging to something?=C2=A0 Think vectors and the vertical
>an=
>d=20
>> > horizontal components of lift.
>>=20
>> If you are flying straight and level and then roll into a 90 degree
bank
>=
>while keeping the same elevator position then you will enjoy turning with
>1=
>G of centripetal acceleration. Until the nose falls through. And then
>you'l=
>l enjoy a 1G pullout (more as the speed builds).
>>=20
>> The only way you can *not* turn in that 90 degree bank is if you
>actually=
> moved the stick forward to the position that would give you a zero-G
>pusho=
>ver in level flight.
>
>You haven't tried explaining this to a student, have you? :-)
>
>Here's what really happens if you bank to 90 degrees while holding the
>elev=
>ator control in one place: the nose drops starts dropping the moment you
>b=
>egin to bank, the aircraft begins to accelerate and the g forces
increase.
>=
> There is -no- period of time that "you will enjoy turning at 1G of
>centrip=
>etal acceleration." =20
> =20
>Langewiesche (Stick and Rudder) has it right. Think of the elevator
>contro=
>l as your angle of attack control. Chapter one, "How a wing is flown".
>Wh=
>at a great place to start the explanation of the art of flying.
>
>best,
>Evan Ludeman


>Funnily enough.... the assumption is made that the tail is acting with a
'downward' force, counterbalancing the mass ahead of the lift... with
neutral stability, the elevator actually exerts no force in pitch. And it
is also possible that the tail generates lift to support a rearward C of G
!!!
Banking to 90 deg and holding that angle changes the whole dynamic of the
weight and lift distribution, the fin and rudder now come out to play....
!!!

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 17:37:00 +0000, James Lambert wrote:

> Funnily enough.... the assumption is made that the tail is acting with a
> 'downward' force, counterbalancing the mass ahead of the lift... with
> neutral stability, the elevator actually exerts no force in pitch. And
> it is also possible that the tail generates lift to support a rearward C
> of G !!!
>
Indeed, but every glider I know the W&B for has the CG in front of the CL
at all flying speeds (CL approaches 30% MAC at the stall, but as airspeed
rises it moves further back.

I'm far from certain that I'd want to fly anything with the CL at or
behind the CG. Here's why:

I know quite a lot about trimming small aircraft with rear CG positions -
virtually all competition free flight models are set up this way because
having both wing and tail providing lift adds efficiency, especially if
the tail is flying at its minimum drag AOA. Which is the case for a well-
designed model. Numbers: the F1A gliders (F1A is the international class
for towline gliders - typically 2.2-2.7m span, min weight 420g) all flew
best with the CG at 55% of MAC, a main wing AOA of about 8 degrees and
the flat bottomed lifting tail at about 3.5 dergees AOA. The stability
was good - it has to be to handle rough thermals and the turbulence you
get below 50-100ft on a windy day. But I would not want to fly an
aircraft with that trim set-up because the trim sensitivity was extreme -
my tail had a 90 mm chord and I used a 10BA bolt as the trim adjuster
(thats 1.7mm diameter, with a 0.35mm pitch). I could easily see the
effect of half a turn on the trim (both still air duration and dynamic
recovery from upsets) and so used to fine tune them in terms of 1/4 turn
adjustments. That gives a 0.09mm movement at the TE of a 90mm chord
tailplane, so a very small angular change indeed. 1-2 turns took it from
stalling to an under-elevated over fast glide.

On the other hand, similarly sized models with the CG in front of the CL,
so flying with down force on the tail, are easy to trim by adding or
removing pieces of 0.8mm or 1.6mm balsa under the TE of the tailplane.

Bottom line: I would not want to hand-fly anything with that amount of
pitch sensitivity so am happy to leave anything with its CG behind the CL
in the hands of other, better and braver pilots than myself.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 19:41:20 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> I'm far from certain that I'd want to fly anything with the CL at or
> behind the CG. Here's why:
>
Errrrm: this should, of course, read:

I'm far from certain that I'd want to fly anything with the CG at or
behind the CL. Here's why:


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org