2020 Mackay, Idaho Regatta

[Boise Pilot]

Annual Mackay, ID Regatta at U62 airport, tows will be available from July 16 through July 26. mountain and valley flying. O2 - refills are not available nearby, Spot or equivalent required. FLARM STRONGLY recommended. Limited options for RV or motels so reservations so suggest making them early. Nightly group dinners and lots of social activity. Non flying days, hiking, fishing, biking and touring. Airport tie down space requires tie down equipment. contact Tom Dixon
(dixon. put in the two digit number and letter for the measurement for the long wings on an ASG 29 @gmail.com)
"
For information, questions and info on places to stay.
Tom
Boise, ID

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.

The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.

The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?

Thanks, John

[Brian[_1_]]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
>
> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
>
> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
>
> Thanks, John

He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.

[Dan Marotta]

In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
who wanted it.

On 10/31/2019 8:40 AM, Brian wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
>> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
>>
>> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
>>
>> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
>>
>> Thanks, John
> He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:34 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
> large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
> month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
> trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
> who wanted it.
>
> On 10/31/2019 8:40 AM, Brian wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> >> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
> >>
> >> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
> >>
> >> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
> >>
> >> Thanks, John
> > He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Make that free beer and you could create a movement.

[Dan Marotta]

Back in the 90s, when I made home brew, I always brought plenty to the
glider port.Â* Never had to look for someone to help remove the wings. :-D

On 10/31/2019 10:31 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:34 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
>> large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
>> month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
>> trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
>> who wanted it.
>>
>> On 10/31/2019 8:40 AM, Brian wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
>>>> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
>>>>
>>>> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
>>>>
>>>> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, John
>>> He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Make that free beer and you could create a movement.

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Great idea and what I was thinking....bring large supply, maybe some adaptors, charge market price plus....the whole "what is cost to get it elsewhere?" Don't rape, but a markup is sorta OK....

No, never really needed O2 in eastern flatlands....most I will need is a diamond climb in SE NYS....last regular badge flight out of my home field (06N.....Middletown, NY....).....I have earned EVERY badge from same home field....from "A" through gold and 2 diamonds....missing diamond altitude.....I believe 6 in NYS....I would love to add a 1000K from here as well....slight chance.....

[Boise Pilot]

See Brian's response. Historically we have had some bring big bottles to use as refills. We have the necessary hoses and adapters for USA stuff. Those that bring the big bottles - large med tanks - get first use but usually are able to help others. My glider only has room for the small 'D' bottles but I have 5 of them so have not needed to refill in the past. Towards the end of the stay one may only get 1,100 lbs +/- . A commercial refill is about 3 hours each way. So obtaining a large bottle as Dan suggested is optimal.
tom





On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
>
> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
>
> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
>
> Thanks, John

[Brian[_1_]]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 9:43:34 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
> large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
> month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
> trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
> who wanted it.

That is pretty much exactly what I do only I already have a Large Bottle. My O2 supplier will let me delay the exchange of my old bottle for a couple weeks for a minimal charge ($15?) So I usually have the bottle left over oxygen from last year and a full bottle. But at Mackay we typically spend a lot of time between 16-18K with the option of going to 28K (Wave Window) so in two weeks we can use a significant amount of oxygen. Donations are accepted to offset the cost of the O2.

Brian

[Matt Herron (Sr)]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:34 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
> large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
> month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
> trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
> who wanted it.
>
> On 10/31/2019 8:40 AM, Brian wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> >> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
> >>
> >> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
> >>
> >> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
> >>
> >> Thanks, John
> > He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Oxygen is Oxygen. There is no difference between aviation and commercial welding oxygen except for liability insurance. I once ran a welding business so I have a large bottle of welding Oxygen that I use to refill my glider bottle. Done it for years. no problem.
And it's easy to rent a welding bottle from any commercial supplier for far less bucks.
Matt Herron

[[email protected]]

> Oxygen is Oxygen. There is no difference between aviation and commercial welding oxygen except for liability insurance.

For a given tank, there is likely no physical difference, but the fill procedure appears different.
For welding, just fill is ok.
For medical and PBO, evacuate first is required.

If the previous user left the tank open for a while, there is a small chance of moisture but probably nothing else harmful.

I can get a big tank of pbo for a month from the welding shop for $35. The problem is I have to give them a week's notice so they will have it. And I can't go to a random Tractor Supply to get it.

For me, the extra hassle is worth not having to think about such an easily avoided 'probably'.

[[email protected]]

> For welding, just fill is ok.
> For medical and PBO, evacuate first is required.
>
> If the previous user left the tank open for a while, there is a small chance of moisture but probably nothing else harmful.

The above protocol is true at the supplier, but not necessarily in the field. The reason for evacuation of the cylinders for medical and PBO (or ABO) is that the O2 refill has a lot number that is recorded by the supplier.

I doubt that many pilots run their tanks to zero pressure before refilling, and then it is unlikely that the valve is left open and the regulator exposed to ambient atmosphere (and thus possible moisture contamination.)

Also, just in case you haven't noticed, medical cylinders generally use the CGA-870 post-type filling port as opposed to the CGA-540 outlet found on welding and Aviator's Breathing Oxygen cylinders. A special adapter will be required to transfill the medical cylinder from a typical CGA-540 fitting.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 10:54:29 AM UTC-8, Matt Herron (Sr) wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:43:34 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > In the past, at another location, a friend and I on safari rented a
> > large O2 bottle from the local medical supplier.Â* Cost was $42 for a
> > month though we only needed it for a week.Â* We brought our own
> > trans-fill hose and, at the end of the week, offered free O2 for anyone
> > who wanted it.
> >
> > On 10/31/2019 8:40 AM, Brian wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 6:41:46 AM UTC-6, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > >> I must ask about the lack of "nearby" oxygen refills.
> > >>
> > >> The regatta is 10 days long. The field elevation is 5892ft. So oxygen use would be expected and refills would be needed.
> > >>
> > >> The limiting factor is then how far away would one have to travel to get a quick turnaround refill?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks, John
> > > He is just saying that commercially available oxygen is not available close by, so don't plan on coming and then filling up your oxygen bottles because the supply is limited. If you are coming and can bring extra please do, If you need oxygen please coordinate with Tom, a number of us bring extra, But availability is a bit potluck, if you don't bring your own. So far we have always had enough, and just want to keep it that way.
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Oxygen is Oxygen. There is no difference between aviation and commercial welding oxygen except for liability insurance. I once ran a welding business so I have a large bottle of welding Oxygen that I use to refill my glider bottle. Done it for years. no problem.
> And it's easy to rent a welding bottle from any commercial supplier for far less bucks.
> Matt Herron

I spoke to an O2 supplier about this once. He agreed that "oxygen is oxygen", but he said that there is a cleanliness standard for medical and PBO bottles. Contamination from a bottle may cause a system malfunction which in a welding application is no big deal, but in PBO or medical could be fatal..

[Dan Marotta]

Good info about evacuating.Â* Only idiots would leave a bottle open to
the environment, but the world does seem to be populated by them in
increasing numbers.Â* I keep my bottle closed and blow out the trans fill
hose with O2 before closing the system to fill the aircraft bottle.Â* In
my original post I only mentioned medical oxygen because that was the
only supplier in town.Â* Locally, I simply go to the gas supplier and get
"oxygen".Â* I own my bottle but rather than hang on to it for 5 years and
then get a hydrostatic test, I just swap it out for another bottle.

On 11/10/2019 3:32 PM, wrote:
>> Oxygen is Oxygen. There is no difference between aviation and commercial welding oxygen except for liability insurance.
> For a given tank, there is likely no physical difference, but the fill procedure appears different.
> For welding, just fill is ok.
> For medical and PBO, evacuate first is required.
>
> If the previous user left the tank open for a while, there is a small chance of moisture but probably nothing else harmful.
>
> I can get a big tank of pbo for a month from the welding shop for $35. The problem is I have to give them a week's notice so they will have it. And I can't go to a random Tractor Supply to get it.
>
> For me, the extra hassle is worth not having to think about such an easily avoided 'probably'.
>
>
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

That's right, Mark.Â* The bottle we rented at the medical supply place
had a CGA-540 valve.

On 11/10/2019 4:05 PM, wrote:
>> For welding, just fill is ok.
>> For medical and PBO, evacuate first is required.
>>
>> If the previous user left the tank open for a while, there is a small chance of moisture but probably nothing else harmful.
> The above protocol is true at the supplier, but not necessarily in the field. The reason for evacuation of the cylinders for medical and PBO (or ABO) is that the O2 refill has a lot number that is recorded by the supplier.
>
> I doubt that many pilots run their tanks to zero pressure before refilling, and then it is unlikely that the valve is left open and the regulator exposed to ambient atmosphere (and thus possible moisture contamination.)
>
> Also, just in case you haven't noticed, medical cylinders generally use the CGA-870 post-type filling port as opposed to the CGA-540 outlet found on welding and Aviator's Breathing Oxygen cylinders. A special adapter will be required to transfill the medical cylinder from a typical CGA-540 fitting.

--
Dan, 5J

[Brian[_1_]]

It would seem to me that contaminated oxygen used to weld the airplane together could be Fatal also.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Brian wrote on 11/11/2019 9:13 PM:
> It would seem to me that contaminated oxygen used to weld the airplane together could be Fatal also.
>
I was told many years ago by a gas supplier, that welding oxygen has strict
contamination requirements, and that we can safely breathe oxygen that a welder
would reject.

Concerns over water freezing in the regulator seem exaggerated: even if a bottle
had only humid air in it before filling, that air will be only 15psi/2000psi =
0.0075 = 0.75% of the bottle after filling, reducing the humidity by over a 100.
The dewpoint is then well below -30F, so it's not going to freeze in the regulator.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1