Pawnee TOST Hook Installation FAA Paperwork

[[email protected]]

We recently purchased a Pawnee that was a sprayer. In the process of changing the airworthiness certificate from Restricted Aerial Spraying to Restricted Towing. The DAR is looking for either an STC or 337 Field Approval paperwork for the TOST hook. The EASA Form 1 paperwork will not suffice. Does anyone have this paperwork? Please contact me ASAP.


Tim Hanke

518-365-7726 phone/ text

e-mail: tim AT adirondacksoaring.com

[Bob Youngblood]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> We recently purchased a Pawnee that was a sprayer. In the process of changing the airworthiness certificate from Restricted Aerial Spraying to Restricted Towing. The DAR is looking for either an STC or 337 Field Approval paperwork for the TOST hook. The EASA Form 1 paperwork will not suffice. Does anyone have this paperwork? Please contact me ASAP.
>
>
> Tim Hanke
>
> 518-365-7726 phone/ text
>
> e-mail: tim AT adirondacksoaring.com

There is NO STC! easy to get certified, 43-13-2A-B page 73-75,tells how to do it and get your mechanic to do a 337 and you are done with it. Bob

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 5:03:00 PM UTC-6, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > We recently purchased a Pawnee that was a sprayer. In the process of changing the airworthiness certificate from Restricted Aerial Spraying to Restricted Towing. The DAR is looking for either an STC or 337 Field Approval paperwork for the TOST hook. The EASA Form 1 paperwork will not suffice. Does anyone have this paperwork? Please contact me ASAP.
> >
> >
> > Tim Hanke
> >
> > 518-365-7726 phone/ text
> >
> > e-mail: tim AT adirondacksoaring.com
>
> There is NO STC! easy to get certified, 43-13-2A-B page 73-75,tells how to do it and get your mechanic to do a 337 and you are done with it. Bob

One restricted category Pawnee 260 TOST 337 done here in Colorado was not approved by the Denver FAA Flight Standards Inspector. The tow plane was ferried to Wichita for approval. That may have been just before AC 43-13-2B was published. Presumably Albany will be accommodating.

Frank

[[email protected]]

Thanks Bob! I think AC 43-13-2B is what I needed.



On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 7:03:00 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > We recently purchased a Pawnee that was a sprayer. In the process of changing the airworthiness certificate from Restricted Aerial Spraying to Restricted Towing. The DAR is looking for either an STC or 337 Field Approval paperwork for the TOST hook. The EASA Form 1 paperwork will not suffice. Does anyone have this paperwork? Please contact me ASAP.
> >
> >
> > Tim Hanke
> >
> > 518-365-7726 phone/ text
> >
> > e-mail: tim AT adirondacksoaring.com
>
> There is NO STC! easy to get certified, 43-13-2A-B page 73-75,tells how to do it and get your mechanic to do a 337 and you are done with it. Bob

[Charles Longley]

Out of curiosity why didn’t you move the Pawnee to a standard airworthiness certificate?

[[email protected]]

What's wrong with staying restricted?

[[email protected]]

Moving to standard not necessary and something of a hassle

[Charles Longley]

It’s restricted?

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 10:07:02 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> Out of curiosity why didn’t you move the Pawnee to a standard airworthiness certificate?

Keep the RESTRICTED category!!

[Charles Longley]

I guess the only real advantage of having a standard airworthiness certificate is you could do what you want with the airplane when you’re not towing. Take a restricted Pawnee into Johnson Creek and hang out with the Super Cub guys. FAA might take a dim view.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 8:55:51 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> I guess the only real advantage of having a standard airworthiness certificate is you could do what you want with the airplane when you’re not towing. Take a restricted Pawnee into Johnson Creek and hang out with the Super Cub guys. FAA might take a dim view.

The FAA could care less about taking a restricted class plane into Johnson Creek. Many other types of planes come to the fly-in other than super cubs. From my experiences most all super cub fliers would love to fly the Pawnee..

[Charles Longley]

Yeah so I guess you make my point. It’s advantageous to have a Pawnee with a standard airworthiness certificate as opposed to restricted. Who knows what the FAA would do. I have a bunch of experience in Super Cubs and Pawnees by the way. The Pawnee is far easier to fly and has that awesome O540! I am dreaming about how to stuff it into a Super Cub.

[Dan Marotta]

Look up Mike Patey and his Carbon Cub rebuild with the 8-cylinder Lycoming.

On 11/9/2019 8:41 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
> Yeah so I guess you make my point. It’s advantageous to have a Pawnee with a standard airworthiness certificate as opposed to restricted. Who knows what the FAA would do. I have a bunch of experience in Super Cubs and Pawnees by the way. The Pawnee is far easier to fly and has that awesome O540! I am dreaming about how to stuff it into a Super Cub.

--
Dan, 5J

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 10:41:44 PM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> Yeah so I guess you make my point. It’s advantageous to have a Pawnee with a standard airworthiness certificate as opposed to restricted. Who knows what the FAA would do. I have a bunch of experience in Super Cubs and Pawnees by the way. The Pawnee is far easier to fly and has that awesome O540! I am dreaming about how to stuff it into a Super Cub.

Good morning Charlie, can you please explain why the restricted category is such a disadvantage. I have owned three Pawnee's, flew the Super Cub for many years, I really would like to understand your reasoning.

[Charles Longley]

Good morning Bob. From a club standpoint it probably doesn’t make much difference. From a possible personal airplane that you let out for towing it would make difference. Restricted means just that. Towing glider or whatever the restriction is, ferry flights, training flights, etc. Look at 91.313

Standard Airworthiness certificate with a 337 for the tow hook is a reasonable route to go.

[Charles Longley]

I can’t find it. Mike Patey does some pretty cool stuff! Bummer on Draco.
I wonder if an O540 is practical in a Super Cub?

[Roy B.]

Tim:
Do you need paperwork for the Tost reel system? Or just the Tost hook?
I think I may have it for the reel.
Roy

[[email protected]]

Roy,
We are good now. Have what we need and towed this weekend with our new Pawnee.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 9:30:01 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> Good morning Bob. From a club standpoint it probably doesn’t make much difference. From a possible personal airplane that you let out for towing it would make difference. Restricted means just that. Towing glider or whatever the restriction is, ferry flights, training flights, etc. Look at 91.313
>
> Standard Airworthiness certificate with a 337 for the tow hook is a reasonable route to go.

Good evening Charlie, it actually is up to the FSDO to determine if they want to change the restriction application. Some of them just leave them the way they were and do not worry about changing the restriction classification. Why change it?? Are you planning on teaching in the PAwnee, that would be very uncomfortable. There is no provision that states that you cannot fly the Pawnee anywhere you wish, I have had a couple of mine into some pretty big airports and never had an inspector ask me what I was spraying.
Keeping the Pawnee in the restricted category brings about many benefits. Bob

[Charles Longley]

Evening Bob,

What are the benefits of staying in the restricted category? I am really curious. All 3 of the Pawnees I fly have a standard airworthiness certificate.

Regards,
Charlie

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 7:37:05 PM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> Evening Bob,
>
> What are the benefits of staying in the restricted category? I am really curious. All 3 of the Pawnees I fly have a standard airworthiness certificate.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie

Early morning Charlie, Export and import paperwork and cost, Maintenance cost IA vs AP, and making changes in things that do not change design. power or thrust. Another benefit is noise abatement restrictions or lack of.

[[email protected]]

Ditto all what Bob said

[Roy B.]

Related to this topic: We have learned from bad experience that one must not "split" any part of a conversion to towing between 2 different FSDOs. The FAA does not always function as a unified agency and in our case the FSDO where the seller was located converted the certificate from "restricted - agriculture" to "restricted- glider/banner tow." BUT the FSDO where we (the buyer) were located refused the paperwork to install the tow hook. They actually claimed that the first FSDO acted improperly in converting the certificate. Essentially, one FAA office was claiming that another FAA office screwed up. It took me (a lawyer and then club president) 8 months to solve that problem. So, absent a really good reason, I think converting a certificate from Restricted to Standard is just asking for trouble.
ROY

[[email protected]]

> Related to this topic: We have learned from bad experience that one must not "split" any part of a conversion to towing between 2 different FSDOs.

As one of my FSDO contacts often said, "The FAA has about 92 FSDOs. Each one independently owned and operated."

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 3:57:08 PM UTC-8, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Sunday, November 10, 2019 at 9:30:01 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> > Good morning Bob. From a club standpoint it probably doesn’t make much difference. From a possible personal airplane that you let out for towing it would make difference. Restricted means just that. Towing glider or whatever the restriction is, ferry flights, training flights, etc. Look at 91.313
> >
> > Standard Airworthiness certificate with a 337 for the tow hook is a reasonable route to go.
>
> Good evening Charlie, it actually is up to the FSDO to determine if they want to change the restriction application. Some of them just leave them the way they were and do not worry about changing the restriction classification. Why change it?? Are you planning on teaching in the PAwnee, that would be very uncomfortable. There is no provision that states that you cannot fly the Pawnee anywhere you wish, I have had a couple of mine into some pretty big airports and never had an inspector ask me what I was spraying.
> Keeping the Pawnee in the restricted category brings about many benefits. Bob

>There is no provision that states that you cannot fly the [Restricted] Pawnee anywhere you wish

Yes, there is.

91.313 states:

(e) Except when operating in accordance with the terms and conditions of a certificate of waiver or special operating limitations issued by the Administrator, no person may operate a restricted category civil aircraft within the United States -

(1) Over a densely populated area;

(2) In a congested airway; or

(3) Near a busy airport where passenger transport operations are conducted.

[Dan Marotta]

Start HERE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYkDRiEnYwA> and rummage
around.Â* Or just look for "Scrappy" on youtube and start from the
beginning on the design philosophy.

On 11/10/2019 8:01 AM, Charles Longley wrote:
> I can’t find it. Mike Patey does some pretty cool stuff! Bummer on Draco.
> I wonder if an O540 is practical in a Super Cub?

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

This regulation is so vaguely written by the FAA as to being meaningless. Speaking from experience operation a restricted category aircraft ( duster), we run into these three “restrictions� all the time. One fsdo’s definition of densely populated is not the same as anothers. Same goes for a busy airway. As for pasenger carrying airport, every airport that has a guy giving his neighbor a ride, is a passenger carrying airport. These so called restrictions were designed to be vague for the specific purpose of giving the feds legal latitude in case of an incident.

I can tell you practically speaking they are ignored.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 2:51:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> This regulation is so vaguely written by the FAA as to being meaningless. Speaking from experience operation a restricted category aircraft ( duster), we run into these three “restrictions� all the time. One fsdo’s definition of densely populated is not the same as anothers.. Same goes for a busy airway. As for pasenger carrying airport, every airport that has a guy giving his neighbor a ride, is a passenger carrying airport. These so called restrictions were designed to be vague for the specific purpose of giving the feds legal latitude in case of an incident.
>
> I can tell you practically speaking they are ignored.

Oh, the old 91.1?? I have to laugh when you speak about that FAR! I have landed a Pawnee in many airports. talked to many control towers and not one time did anyone say that you cannot land here. Also have flown over many congested areas, Oklahoma City, Dallas, New Orleans, Atlanta, WPB, Orl, They never told me to stay away.

[[email protected]]

Yeh Bob, we ferry in and out of major air centers all year long, go to airshows, do spray demonstrations etc. Never ever been questioned. I have even been ramp checked and the issue of being restricted, experimental, or standard has never come up. My advice? Quit looking for reds under beds, dont make trouble for yourselves by opening up cans of worms. Leave your classification as is.
Dan

[Charles Longley]

Well I found one thing you can’t do with a restricted airworthiness certificate. Fly into a foreign country without their express permission. One of the Pawnees I fly was in 50 Shades of Grey which was filmed in Canada. If I ever buy a personal Pawnee I’ll probably move it to a standard airworthiness certificate if it doesn’t have one already.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 4:56:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Yeh Bob, we ferry in and out of major air centers all year long, go to airshows, do spray demonstrations etc. Never ever been questioned. I have even been ramp checked and the issue of being restricted, experimental, or standard has never come up. My advice? Quit looking for reds under beds, dont make trouble for yourselves by opening up cans of worms. Leave your classification as is.
> Dan

So much for the density population theory. Here in Florida during the hot muggy wet summers it is not unusual to see the Air Tractor 502 or a DC-3 blanket spraying for mosquitoes. The air Tractors do dawn and dusk applications and the DC-3 does large area spraying, and yes over dense population areas.

[Charles Longley]

So that glider that illegally went into Canada can be aero retrieved but only if the tow plane has a standard airworthiness certificate. ;)

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 9:53:52 PM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> So that glider that illegally went into Canada can be aero retrieved but only if the tow plane has a standard airworthiness certificate. ;)

Good morning Charlie, give it up!!

[Charles Longley]

Good morning Bob, never!!!

How about we agree to disagree? :)