How did you install your FLARM brick and/or ADS-B Out?

[[email protected]]

Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
Did you install a dedicated fuse?
Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.
Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?

Thanks for your reply.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> Did you install a dedicated fuse?
powered by the S80 vary, which is connected to "nav" breaker

> Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
Slaved to S80

> Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument..
Dedicated

> Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
no

> If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
ADS-B out must be on, if installed, per FAA regs. Flarm is my logger, so always on.

> If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
Trig 22 must be factory updated, I believe. Not sure about the TN72. I have both.
>
> Thanks for your reply.

Other notes: I panel mounted the USB connector for the FLAM on the panel to facilitate updates and flight downloads. I was frustrated by not being able to see the LED on the Flarm brick, so I used an optical audio cable to remote it. I glued (after some belt sanding) one end of the optical cable to the side of the USB connector on the Flarm side, such that it lined up with the LED. On the panel side, I remove some of the optical connector jacket, exposing 1/4" of brass tubing with fiber inside. Then I drilled a small hole in the panel near the USB connector and epoxied the brass tubing/fiber in the hole. Now I can see the LED on the panel!

Matt

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument..
> Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
> If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
> If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
>
> Thanks for your reply.

First thanks for flying with a transponder and PowerFLARM.

You are trying to get what "ADS-B Out"? What exactly are you doing? TABS or 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out? In a type certified or experimental glider?

The Trig TN72 installation manual answers several of these questions. It specifies a 1A breaker for the TN72 for example.Â*

Why would you want an on/off switch for any of this? The Transponder and TN72 and PowerFLARM should all be on by default with your master avionics power, if there is a problem when you need to turn it off you have the breaker.

A 2020 compliant ADS-B Out system, just like a Transponder, is not supposed to be turned off in flight, Â*and with 1099ES Out, or even just Mode-S, if you do you are advertising exactly who you are to everybody watching.

Trig transponder software is updated by Mid Continent. It's a free upgrade, you just pay for shipping. Send them the transponder body and control head, and include a note just saying you want the software updated and your return address and phone number. Just ship it off, does not require an RMA, they will call you back when ready to return. They have a repair center in Kansas and another in Southern California, pick the one closest or call them to check if unsure. Usually takes about a week plus shipping. https://www.mcico.com/customer-service-warranty-service-centers

For 2020 ADS-B Out Compliance or TABS the transponder *must* be on software 2.12 or later. This upgrades the Transpoder to DO-260B/TSO-C166b aka "1090ES version 2" compatibility without which you have no hope of 2020 Compliance or all the TABS features working, and you will likely get is a please explain letter from the FAA.

See https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/trig-product-software

However there is no need to be on the very latest 2.13 software, if you are on 2.12 just use that. 2.13 adds supposedly improved GPS based air/ground determination... but that is aimed at GA aircraft. That GPS air/ground determination update was not intended for gliders and will likely fail in wave conditions with very low groundspeed, it may even fail in just strong headwinds. As I have posted here before, if going for 2020 compliance I would install the pitot "squat" switch from the TN70 STC kit, if a TABS install just set the squat switch to none in the setup menu. Â*Transmitting ground mode ADS-B Out messages while airborne is very bad and will get you noticed by the FAA. It's silly for most gliders to ever want to be in ground mode, we are not landing at SFO and taxying around, but for 2020 Compliance the FAA effectively requires all aircraft to transmit ground mode messages while on the ground. Every glider community Trig dealer should be up on this and asking if the install is TABS or 2020 Complaint and if the later should be offering to sell you that switch with the TN72, if they are not then find a better dealer.

You should assume that every 2020 Complaint or TABS installation might be a challenge to get the GPS receiver antenna position to work well enough. This is much more demanding than any other GPS antenna install you will have in a typical glider. You *have* to test this works by test-flying and reviewing FAA ADS-B Out public performance reports. The antenna needs to be high and central under the instrument cover, with as good a sky view as you can get down to the horizon all around. You may need to get rid of metal or other RF opaque objects in the sky view, that might include things like the brass instrument panel support rods on Schleicher gliders etc. Get the install done, maybe with the GPS antenna temporarily secured at first, and test fly it and pull a FAA Public ADS-B Out Performance Report and check this works before assuming you are done. If you or your A&P thinks a GPS splitter is acceptable for this use, be extra careful to performance test with that in the circuit, you may need to compare results with and without if the report shows problems.

While I want to encourage A&Ps to be doing more of these installs, they really need to be working with customers and insisting they test fly those aircraft, including even for TABS installs, and review the results together. A 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out install in a type certified glider clearly requires the A&P to make sure a test flight is done and FAA report obtained (or use fancy ADS-B Out ground test equipment which *nobody* has), all other cases are less clear... but just do it. I'm always happy to look over performance reports TABS installs will always get flagged as failing those FAA reports, which are looking only for 2020 Compliance. TABS will fail in NIC, SIL and SDA, that's expected, but the actual numbers in the report tell if it's working as a TABS device.

I am working on this now and will hopefully have some web pages up within a few weeks with setup instructions, testing instructions and other info the the TN72 in gliders in the USA.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 12:14:47 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> > Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> > Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> > Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for your input Darryl -- you're the bomb.

Details = experimental, 2020 ADS-B out compliant, TT22, TN-72 with squatt switch, TA-70 antenna. (For an experimental install, I really wonder what advantage the TA-70 has over "everyday" pucks)

Your current feelings about GPS antennea splitters?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 1:17:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.
> Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
> If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
> If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
>
> Thanks for your reply.

I have CORE only:
Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
Directly; display is powered by RJ45.
Did you install a dedicated fuse?
CB
Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
Dedicated switch
Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument
Dedicated provided GPS antenna (provided). Followed installation instructions for GPS and antenna spacing.
Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
Flying since 2012 with it; it is the last instrument to go off in my cockpit (if low power).

[Darryl Ramm]

I expect the TA70 antenna to have no advantage and lots of disadvantage over a TA50 or compatible antenna. Starting with it may be much easier to better position the small TA50. I believe Trig published enough statements about the TA50 Compatibility to use it for 2020 compliance in an experimental glider and enough for TABS in any glider. The situation with a 2020 compliant install with a TN70 in a type certified glider is more complex (that distant sound is me beating my head against the wall). I would not want to use the TA70 in any other installs except with the TN70 in a type certified glider following the TN70 STC.

Unfortunately some glider manufacturers were installing the TN70 thinking it was needed even in experimental gliders. That fugly wall wart has caused more problems that it was worth. Other glider manufacturers, working with Trig HQ, have standardized on the TA50 antenna at least for experimental gliders.

I am not a fan of GPS splitters for ADS-B Out system that may already be hard enough to get working. But again, if you you believe they can be used and meet compliance needs the emphasis should be on flight testing the whole setup. Certainly folks are using splitters for Some installs that seem to work OK.

With 2020 Compliance, great you are using the pneumatic squat switch. If you don’t mind I will shoot you a link to some draft doc soon.

[son_of_flubber]

Another issue to plan is where and how to physically mount the Trig transponder and GPS bricks. Using a long cable to connect the transponder brick to the panel unit gives you more flexibility on where to place the bricks. I mounted my two bricks on a vertical piece of plywood behind my headrest. I fabricated a perforated metal cover to insure air circulation around the bricks even if my 'survival bag' on the turtle deck is pressing against the perforated cover.

There's no carbon fiber in my glider. The GPS antenna is velcro-ed inside the fuselage above the turtle deck. The transponder antenna is inside the fuselage about four feet behind the bricks in the boom (as far away as possible from my head and metal parts). I made a special tool to reach back into the fuselage. Mounting the transponder antenna was by far the hardest part of the installation task. Powerflarm antennas are in the nose in front of the panel, so I have about five feet between my two GPS antennas.

I recommend giving yourself a lot of time to sort out where and how to mount the physical pieces. The wiring is trivially easy if you buy a custom made wiring harness.

[Scott Williams[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 12:17:18 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> Did you install a dedicated fuse?
trig TT22 powered by a dedicated fused circuit
> Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
Master switch supplies power to trig TT22 dedicated circuit
> Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.
Ta70 (actually a Rami AV 801)powered by TN70 WAAS GPS receiver
TN 70 powered by TT22
> Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
If I'm in the glider, on the ground or in the air, It's on.
> If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
No flarm. And I have yet to determine if I will ever need it,
I fly in western Oklahoma and only 1 other glider even has Flarm
In my area.
> If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
I have pulled seven or so ads-b reports and they all have been perfect.
I am hoping the Oudie will include a non flarm Ads-b In function the
future.

Cheers and good lift,
Scott

>
>

[Dan Marotta]

I mounted the TT22 remote box under the cockpit floor in front of the
stick in my LAK-17a.Â* It was a large empty space intended for a "nose
hook" which my glider did not have.Â* I purchased the custom cable but,
due to restrictions in the cable path, had to remove the connector from
one end and reinstall it after the cable was run.

I took the transponder with me when I acquired the Stemme and it was
simple to mount it vertically in the instrument box behind the panel.Â*
Later, when I added ADS-B, I mounted the TN72 box right next to the
TT22.Â* The TN72 is powered by a 1-Amp circuit breaker as required by the
STC for Certificated aircraft.Â* I also included a pitot-activated
"squat" switch for air/ground determination.Â* The TA70 antenna is
mounted on a shelf fabricated of aluminum sheet and attached to one of
the steel tubes in the engine bay.Â* It is located above the engine and
under the fiberglass turtle deck, which is easily removable.

As an aside on custom cables.Â* If you're flying an Experimental glider,
the custom cable should work just fine.Â* But, if you fly a Certificated
glider, it's not so simple.Â* In my case, the custom cable took
electrical power from the TT22 to power the TN70 which does not conform
to the STC.Â* I had to open the cable shells on the custom cable to
disconnect the power wires and I also had to add two wires for the
pneumatic air/ground switch.Â* The work was not difficult for anyone
familiar with cable assembly, but you should know.

I have a power flarm portable which is mounted to the top of the glare
shield which is not pertinent to your question.Â* The PF portable does
receive ADS-B traffic transmitted in response to my ADS-B Out
transmissions.Â* Targets are displayed on my ClearNav II moving map and
on a separate Flarm View display.

On 11/17/2019 8:09 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Another issue to plan is where and how to physically mount the Trig transponder and GPS bricks. Using a long cable to connect the transponder brick to the panel unit gives you more flexibility on where to place the bricks. I mounted my two bricks on a vertical piece of plywood behind my headrest. I fabricated a perforated metal cover to insure air circulation around the bricks even if my 'survival bag' on the turtle deck is pressing against the perforated cover.
>
> There's no carbon fiber in my glider. The GPS antenna is velcro-ed inside the fuselage above the turtle deck. The transponder antenna is inside the fuselage about four feet behind the bricks in the boom (as far away as possible from my head and metal parts). I made a special tool to reach back into the fuselage. Mounting the transponder antenna was by far the hardest part of the installation task. Powerflarm antennas are in the nose in front of the panel, so I have about five feet between my two GPS antennas.
>
> I recommend giving yourself a lot of time to sort out where and how to mount the physical pieces. The wiring is trivially easy if you buy a custom made wiring harness.

--
Dan, 5J

[Mike N.]

As an add on question to this topic, I currently have a Flarm core installed and am installing a Trig TT22 / TN72 for 2020 ADS-B compliance.

My question is, once the Trig transponder is installed, what configuration changes should I make to the Flarm?

I just started reading the Flarm manual, and thought this discussion relevant, so I'm asking....

One change I understand is the ICAO codes should be set to match in both.

I am very technically adept. I'll be going through the manuals, but thought I would raise this question here as well.

[[email protected]]

Remember, TN22 head and core have to be returned to Mid Contient to be upgraded for ADS-B 2020 compliance use.

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:33:07 PM UTC-5, Mike N. wrote:
> As an add on question to this topic, I currently have a Flarm core installed and am installing a Trig TT22 / TN72 for 2020 ADS-B compliance.
>
> My question is, once the Trig transponder is installed, what configuration changes should I make to the Flarm?
>
> I just started reading the Flarm manual, and thought this discussion relevant, so I'm asking....
>
> One change I understand is the ICAO codes should be set to match in both.
>
> I am very technically adept. I'll be going through the manuals, but thought I would raise this question here as well.

[Darryl Ramm]

If it's a recently purchased TT22 I would hope the software version is up to date enough. Which begs the question of how do you check the software version. You just the transponder on and the versions for all the parts shows on the LCD screen as it boots, and then disappears before you can note them down. The way I deal with that is have the iPhone camera ready and just take a photo of the screen.

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 12:21:18 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Remember, TN22 head and core have to be returned to Mid Contient to be upgraded for ADS-B 2020 compliance use.
>
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 2:33:07 PM UTC-5, Mike N. wrote:
> > As an add on question to this topic, I currently have a Flarm core installed and am installing a Trig TT22 / TN72 for 2020 ADS-B compliance.
> >
> > My question is, once the Trig transponder is installed, what configuration changes should I make to the Flarm?
> >
> > I just started reading the Flarm manual, and thought this discussion relevant, so I'm asking....
> >
> > One change I understand is the ICAO codes should be set to match in both.
> >
> > I am very technically adept. I'll be going through the manuals, but thought I would raise this question here as well.

[Mike N.]

Yep, that was just done. In fact the TT22 and TN72 should be arriving at my home tomorrow from Mid Avionics. Fully up to date.
Thanks

[Mike N.]

Any notes on what configuration changes should be made to Flarm core.
Once the installation of the Trig transponder is complete?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:33:07 AM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> As an add on question to this topic, I currently have a Flarm core installed and am installing a Trig TT22 / TN72 for 2020 ADS-B compliance.
>
> My question is, once the Trig transponder is installed, what configuration changes should I make to the Flarm?
>
> I just started reading the Flarm manual, and thought this discussion relevant, so I'm asking....
>
> One change I understand is the ICAO codes should be set to match in both.
>
> I am very technically adept. I'll be going through the manuals, but thought I would raise this question here as well.

The ICAO code should match. That's true for FLARM used with any Mode-S transponder and FLARM, not just ADS-B Out. But even without either I would hope folks are using the aircraft's ICAO address as the ID.

.... if for no other reason this makes it easier to know the aircraft ID if you go missing and folks need to invoke FLARM SAR. Digression on FLARM SAR....

Not specifically related to this, but a reminder: You should also register your contest ID with FLARMnet using that ICAO address so other folks can more easily ID you... that also helps confirm folks have the right ID for your glider if FLARM SAR is used.

What's FLARM SAR? It's an adjunct to other search and rescue technology. FLARM units record periodic data on other FLARM units they see, that's what is used to do range analysis using the online FLARM tool for example. It can be useful if gliders are flying in mountainous or other regions with poor radar, ADS-B or OGN coverage and for whatever reasons the glider does not have inReach or Spot or similar devices or they are not working. Everything you need to know to invoke FLARM SAR is at https://flarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SAR_Text.pdf

FLARM SAR was used with the crash of the Duo Discus last year flying out of Truckee where Sergio Colacevich and Jim Alton tragically lost their lives. FLARM was able to construct part of the flight path towards the location of the crash, using data from one other glider. While not a help in that situation it could have been useful to exclude having a missing glider crew that needed a SAR response. Thanks to the folks at FLARM for a very quick response on that, and for Ramy Yanetz for chasing down FLARM log files from nearby gliders. And in this case it showed its use a a backup, it appeared that the SPOT tracker in the glider may have been accidentally turned off after testing on the ground before the flight. All very tragic and two great folks that all of us in the region will miss. Please lets try to learn and improve from that.

Since FLARM SAR does not seem well known in the USA I would ask clubs and glider operations to start talking about it more to raise awareness. Again, pilots can help by checking their FLARM ID is configured to their glider ICAO address, and that the FLARM is set up on FLARMnet... again makes it easier to find you if bad things happen without confusion about the FLARM ID you are using... and make sure you can download the FLARM log file *from your FLARM unit* so you can help others...

One of the nice things happening in Region 11 as well is Philip Lee and other folks working to install OGN receivers at popular gliding locations. Lots of Kudos to PASCO for funding those units. And I know this is trickling down into Region 12 as well. And again OGN provides SAR capabilities for FLARM equipped gliders if they are in line of site range of an OGN receiver. I believe Tom Serkowski is looking at installing OGN as well as FlightAware ADS-B receivers near Inyokern. And other clubs like the Soaring Club of Houston Association already have FlightAware receivers (free from FlightAware) at their location. More technology than you can poke a stick at... but good stuff with a little bit of though/understanding/planning.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 1:07:12 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> Any notes on what configuration changes should be made to Flarm core.
> Once the installation of the Trig transponder is complete?

You just need to tell the FLARM you have a Mode-S transponder (important you say it's Mode-S not Mode-C) And see how things go.

On the TT22 Setup side as I've been suggesting for a while now, I would select that you have a 1090ES receiver (i.e. your PowerFLARM with ADS-B option). That "capability code" gets broadcast by the TT22 and used by the FAA ground infrastructure to work out wether to broadcast ADS-R or TIS-B traffic data for your aircraft (i.e. so you can see other aircraft seen by the FAA ground systems that have UAT-Out or only a transponder (and not 10990ES Out)).

Currently PowerFLARM does not decode ADS-R or TIS-B but that is things FLARM is actively working on. So you might a well set your ADS-B Out that you have 1090ES In so it's ready for that PowerFLARM ADS-R and TIS-B support.

[Mike N.]

Thanks, good data.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument..
> Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
> If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
> If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
>
> Thanks for your reply.

I refuse to install flarm, because I consider that company to be actively obstructing the adoption of adsb in gliders, by diverting money better spent on adsb, and by not allowing flarm traffic displays to accept non-flarm-format inputs. My glider has a Trig 22 and TN72 and a scout adsb-in sending data to the foreflight on my kneepad iphone.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 7:31:50 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> > Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> > Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> > Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.

[[email protected]]

Darryl- When posting on RAS with a message such as this, please use the "SARCASM FONT." Lots of readers just can't make the intellectual leap.

[Tom BravoMike]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 9:31:50 PM UTC-6, wrote:
(...)
>
> I refuse to install flarm, because I consider that company to be actively obstructing the adoption of adsb in gliders, by diverting money better spent on adsb, and by not allowing flarm traffic displays to accept non-flarm-format inputs. My glider has a Trig 22 and TN72 and a scout adsb-in sending data to the foreflight on my kneepad iphone.

I refuse to install FLARM because it doesn't make sense to me that I actually need BOTH the FLARM and a transponder/ADSB to see and be seen by others in the air. I know and understand the point about 'collision avoidance' vs. 'situational awareness'. I accept the fact that competition pilots flying in gaggles feel and are safer with the additional warnings from FLARM. ADDITIONAL to your eyes, because if you are flying that close to other aircraft(s) you should be looking out and not at the instruments.
All my clubs' gliders are equipped with FLARM, but I heard several skeptical opinions from fellow members. My recent experience was: beep-beep-beep... Where is he? Oh gosh, so close cutting in behind me at the same altitude. I'd rather be warned in advance about him approaching to be able to control his position all the time.
Also, very discouraging to me are the endless discussions about antennas, range issues and software updates.
So I'm looking forward to seeing a device integrating and combining the advantages of gliding-specific FLARMs with GA universal transponders/ADS-B.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 9:45:09 AM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 9:31:50 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> (...)
> >
> > I refuse to install flarm, because I consider that company to be actively obstructing the adoption of adsb in gliders, by diverting money better spent on adsb, and by not allowing flarm traffic displays to accept non-flarm-format inputs. My glider has a Trig 22 and TN72 and a scout adsb-in sending data to the foreflight on my kneepad iphone.
>
> I refuse to install FLARM because it doesn't make sense to me that I actually need BOTH the FLARM and a transponder/ADSB to see and be seen by others in the air. I know and understand the point about 'collision avoidance' vs. 'situational awareness'. I accept the fact that competition pilots flying in gaggles feel and are safer with the additional warnings from FLARM. ADDITIONAL to your eyes, because if you are flying that close to other aircraft(s) you should be looking out and not at the instruments.
> All my clubs' gliders are equipped with FLARM, but I heard several skeptical opinions from fellow members. My recent experience was: beep-beep-beep.... Where is he? Oh gosh, so close cutting in behind me at the same altitude.. I'd rather be warned in advance about him approaching to be able to control his position all the time.
> Also, very discouraging to me are the endless discussions about antennas, range issues and software updates.

> So I'm looking forward to seeing a device integrating and combining the advantages of gliding-specific FLARMs with GA universal transponders/ADS-B.

^^ That's just not going to happen. And you can get a flavor for why from other concurrent threads here.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Tom BravoMike wrote on 11/21/2019 9:45 AM:
> On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 9:31:50 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> (...)
>>
>> I refuse to install flarm, because I consider that company to be actively
>> obstructing the adoption of adsb in gliders, by diverting money better spent
>> on adsb, and by not allowing flarm traffic displays to accept
>> non-flarm-format inputs. My glider has a Trig 22 and TN72 and a scout
>> adsb-in sending data to the foreflight on my kneepad iphone.
>
> I refuse to install FLARM because it doesn't make sense to me that I actually
> need BOTH the FLARM and a transponder/ADSB to see and be seen by others in the
> air. I know and understand the point about 'collision avoidance' vs.
> 'situational awareness'. I accept the fact that competition pilots flying in
> gaggles feel and are safer with the additional warnings from FLARM. ADDITIONAL
> to your eyes, because if you are flying that close to other aircraft(s) you
> should be looking out and not at the instruments. All my clubs' gliders are
> equipped with FLARM, but I heard several skeptical opinions from fellow
> members. My recent experience was: beep-beep-beep... Where is he? Oh gosh, so
> close cutting in behind me at the same altitude. I'd rather be warned in
> advance about him approaching to be able to control his position all the time.
> Also, very discouraging to me are the endless discussions about antennas,
> range issues and software updates. So I'm looking forward to seeing a device
> integrating and combining the advantages of gliding-specific FLARMs with GA
> universal transponders/ADS-B.
>
Your beep-beep-beep... analysis missed half of what Flarm does for you: the OTHER
glider was also alerted to the potential conflict. And before the beep beep beep,
Flarm will alert you to the other glider coming into range, and you can track it's
progress on the screen well before the collision warning.

I have a glider with a Mode C transponder and Flarm: the transponder alerts most
airplanes to my presence; the FLARM alerts most gliders to my presence; Flarm
shows me the gliders and airplanes with transponders. To add ADS-B would cost me
about $3000 (Mode S transponder + TN72), and would only slightly increase the
number of airplanes that sense me, and would not change the number of airplanes
and gliders I can sense.

I do have a full ADS-B system (Dynon Skyview) in my Phoenix touring motorglider,
and it's great system for detecting airplanes, but not gliders. When I've flown it
at glider camps or contests, I also use a portable Flarm.

Most pilots that have Flarm installed do not engage in "endless discussions about
antennas, range issues and software updates" - we just turn it on and use it. Some
pilot will have problems, but once the installation is done correctly, it's just
the yearly updates that confuse some pilots. Some are also confused by updating
their flight computer or vario software and the databases, but they get some help
with those, too, and then go fly for another year.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

I agree completely with Eric, I would not trade the PowerFlarm for ADSB in/out for my 27. Its absoulutly necessary IMHO for contest flying. I also fly a 170B with Skybeacon adsb out and stratus 2 in on a Ipad and foreflight and around busy class D airspace. Its very useful but not as good at alerts as the PowerFlarm is.

CH ASW27/C170B

[Thomas Van de Velde]

Here's how: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KuVwn8tV9iLHkPgx7

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 11:15:42 PM UTC-6, Thomas Van de Velde wrote:
> Here's how: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KuVwn8tV9iLHkPgx7

Interesting, a TN70 and no squat switch.
It the plane experimental or standard?

[Dan Marotta]

You can set up the system to use GPS ground speed as your air/ground
determinant.Â* For most flights that would be just fine, but not so with
wave flights when ground speed can decrease to the point where you'd be
reporting on ground while still at altitude.Â* Since I live in an area
where wave flights are not infrequent, I elected to install a pneumatic
switch for that purpose.

On 11/22/2019 6:07 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 11:15:42 PM UTC-6, Thomas Van de Velde wrote:
>> Here's how: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KuVwn8tV9iLHkPgx7
> Interesting, a TN70 and no squat switch.
> It the plane experimental or standard?

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

FLARM isn't absolutely necessary for contest flying but it sure is safer. I tend to roll my eyes at the endless discussions here about the latest technology in soaring (despite--or, rather, because of--having worked in IT for 20 years). But after I borrowed a portable FLARM for the Nationals in 2015, I arranged to buy the loaner.

Yeah, everyone should keep their eyes out of the cockpit at all times. But we're human. We make mistakes. Vision is imperfect. We can't see behind us. FLARM isn't perfect, either, but it's a lot better than the alternatives as far as I can tell.

Much of the chatter here is about increasing the effective range because, contrary to early and earnest assurances, FLARM IS of tactical value. Stealth mode retains nearly all of the safety benefits and negates most of the tactical value but that discussion is dead. In the meantime, I'm always nervous when I learn that one or more pilots at a contest don't have FLARM. In my experience over the past 50+ years, the majority (though certainly not all) of mid-air collision risks at contests and busy gliderports are other gliders.

Holding out against FLARM reminds me of that phrase, "the perfect is the enemy of the good." You can wait for the perfect anti-collision device for gliders. In the meantime, FLARM is pretty good, doesn't require expensive regulatory compliance, doesn't need a bigger battery, and costs less. I voted with my wallet. :)

Chip Bearden
JB

[[email protected]]

> You can set up the system...

There you go, answering a sensible what it takes to make it work question.
I was asking why use that combination to make it legal?
(My head hurts thinking sensible and ADSB at the same time.)

If it's experimental, why use a TN70 instead of a TN72.
If it's standard, I thought the STC wanted the airspeed switch.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 9:24:20 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 7:31:50 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 10:17:18 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Is it powered direct or by another instrument?
> > > Did you install a dedicated fuse?
> > > Did you install a dedicated off/on switch or is it slaved?
> > > Do you use a dedicated GPS antennae or split with another instrument.
> > > Do you ever have the in-flight need to turn it off?
> > > If you have both, why would you fly with one on and not the other?
> > > If necessary, how is the Trig -2X and the TN-72 software updated?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> > I refuse to install flarm, because I consider that company to be actively obstructing the adoption of adsb in gliders, by diverting money better spent on adsb, and by not allowing flarm traffic displays to accept non-flarm-format inputs. My glider has a Trig 22 and TN72 and a scout adsb-in sending data to the foreflight on my kneepad iphone.
>
> Yes the evil anti-ADS-B company that developed an ADS-B In product largely for the USA market? And worked to get that ADS-B In support shipped as standard in the USA? And that many hundreds of gliders pilots in the USA have adopted, increasingly alongside 1090ES Out in their gliders.
>
> Please let us all know what exact display manufacturers is being prevented doing anything by FLARM. That's gotta violate a bunch of laws in the USA and Europe. One example will do. The whole global gliding community will owe you a deep favor for uncovering this horrible and illegal business practice.
>
> And your traffic display used with ADS-B In works great in glider on glider situations? Like thermalling? Maybe you could post a video online of it working. Lots of people have hoped for an ADS-B solution that could do that and not been able to find it, but wow you have! That is fantastic! And all my use of Foreflight with ADS-B In I can't get close to working out how you would do this. Waiting to be wowed....

Darryl,
My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough. The nice bright traffic displays only accept flarm-format data. Regarding your other point about adsb not being suitable for collision avoidance in a thermal: I agree, but neither is flarm. I do believe that the future (in the USA) lies with adsb, and on that basis I'd argue that money spent on flarm is money diverted from being better spent on adsb.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 4:23:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough. The nice bright traffic displays only accept flarm-format data.

Some misunderstandings are expressed in your comment. See the Powerflarm web page:

>>Transponder and ADS-B Receiver

While many aircraft are already FLARM-equipped, there are still some that are not. With the optional transponder and ADS-B 1090ES receiver, available in select PowerFLARM devices, you are protected from those aircraft as well.. The additional receiver listens for intruders transmitting Mode-C, Mode-S, and ADS-B messages on 1090 MHz, and includes those aircraft in the smart trajectory prediction and collision warning algorithms. <<

https://flarm.com/products/powerflarm/

And recently mentioned in another RAS thread is ongoing work to bring TIS-B and ADS-R to Powerflarm and that will improve ADS-B capabilities.

[JS[_5_]]

I installed mine with pop rivets.
Jim

[Mike N.]

I have a Power Flarm I just acquired when I recently purchased a glider.

How can I determine if I have the ADS-B 1090ES receiver? Or is this something I can add?

I looked on the Flarm web site mentioned above and it I could not find information that tells me if I have, or how to add the ADS-B 1090ES receiver.

Thanks

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 7:53:06 AM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> I have a Power Flarm I just acquired when I recently purchased a glider.
>
> How can I determine if I have the ADS-B 1090ES receiver? Or is this something I can add?
>
> I looked on the Flarm web site mentioned above and it I could not find information that tells me if I have, or how to add the ADS-B 1090ES receiver.
>
> Thanks

Mike,

Email or call me with the serial number of the PowerFlarm and I will find out if it is ADS-B equipped. Most in the USA were ADS-B equipped.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
> My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough.
You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
phone.Â* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
from the high wing.Â* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
--
Dan, 5J

[Mike N.]

Thanks will do.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
> > My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough.
> You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
> phone.Â* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
> from the high wing.Â* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
> --
> Dan, 5J

Thanks Dan, but an phone is just not bright enough in my bright glider cockpit. The traffic displays sold for Flarm would do fine, but they only accept flarm data, which means I'd have to buy a flarm system. I suspect this to be a marketing decision to drive flarm sales. Because I think this, I will definitely not buy any flarm product.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 11/27/2019 6:08 PM:
> On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
>>> My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough.
>> You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
>> phone.* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
>> from the high wing.* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
>
> Thanks Dan, but an phone is just not bright enough in my bright glider cockpit. The traffic displays sold for Flarm would do fine, but they only accept flarm data, which means I'd have to buy a flarm system. I suspect this to be a marketing decision to drive flarm sales. Because I think this, I will definitely not buy any flarm product.
>
I use an iPhone 6 Plus in my glider to run iGlide. Brightness is adequate to good,
ditto when using Foreflight or similar (I can switch between the applications
while flying). You can buy an iPhone newer iPhone 6, some of which are even
brighter, especially the newest ones.

Instead of being angry with Flarm for displays that work only with Flarm, be angry
at the Scout provider for making it Foreflight/OS only, and not compatible with
some other display.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Delta8]

wrote on 11/27/2019 6:08 PM:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough.
You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
phone.* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
from the high wing.* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
--
Dan, 5J

Thanks Dan, but an phone is just not bright enough in my bright glider cockpit. The traffic displays sold for Flarm would do fine, but they only accept flarm data, which means I'd have to buy a flarm system. I suspect this to be a marketing decision to drive flarm sales. Because I think this, I will definitely not buy any flarm product.

I use an iPhone 6 Plus in my glider to run iGlide. Brightness is adequate to good,
ditto when using Foreflight or similar (I can switch between the applications
while flying). You can buy an iPhone newer iPhone 6, some of which are even
brighter, especially the newest ones.

Instead of being angry with Flarm for displays that work only with Flarm, be angry
at the Scout provider for making it Foreflight/OS only, and not compatible with
some other display.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

I use an I phone 6s and 90% of the time the screen is bright enough I found tilting the mount a little helps . I use a Crew Dog electronics Statux with Fore flight . I get voice audio collision avoidance warnings along with terrain warnings while on the ridge and sometime will alert "Short Final" while in the pattern . I must admit the audio warnings can be confusing while thermaling as it gives an O'clock audio that may be a second or two delayed. It would be nice to have a screen.

I do have a question if it will pick up Power Flarm /Flarm equipped aircraft? I do want to add a Flarm system in the future . Does Power Flarm/Flarm need to be integrated with the Stratux system ? Would I get collision warnings from my own Flarm system?

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 2:43:10 AM UTC-5, Delta8 wrote:
> I do have a question if it will pick up Power Flarm /Flarm equipped
> aircraft? I do want to add a Flarm system in the future . Does Power
> Flarm/Flarm need to be integrated with the Stratux system ? Would I get
> collision warnings from my own Flarm system?

You might want to read the material here to get a better understanding
of the different systems you are asking about:
http://www.nadler.com/GliderPilotUSAflarmWeb/FlarmHome.html

[Delta8]

On Friday, November 29, 2019 at 2:43:10 AM UTC-5, Delta8 wrote:
I do have a question if it will pick up Power Flarm /Flarm equipped
aircraft? I do want to add a Flarm system in the future . Does Power
Flarm/Flarm need to be integrated with the Stratux system ? Would I get
collision warnings from my own Flarm system?

You might want to read the material here to get a better understanding
of the different systems you are asking about:
http://www.nadler.com/GliderPilotUSAflarmWeb/FlarmHome.html

Great article thanks . Answered my question ...different frequency .

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 7:53:53 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 11/27/2019 6:08 PM:
> > On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
> >>> My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it.. My iphone is not bright enough.
> >> You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
> >> phone.Â* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
> >> from the high wing.Â* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> >
> > Thanks Dan, but an phone is just not bright enough in my bright glider cockpit. The traffic displays sold for Flarm would do fine, but they only accept flarm data, which means I'd have to buy a flarm system. I suspect this to be a marketing decision to drive flarm sales. Because I think this, I will definitely not buy any flarm product.
> >
> I use an iPhone 6 Plus in my glider to run iGlide. Brightness is adequate to good,
> ditto when using Foreflight or similar (I can switch between the applications
> while flying). You can buy an iPhone newer iPhone 6, some of which are even
> brighter, especially the newest ones.
>
> Instead of being angry with Flarm for displays that work only with Flarm, be angry
> at the Scout provider for making it Foreflight/OS only, and not compatible with
> some other display.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Hi Eric,
I agree that screen brightness is a personal opinion. My opinion is that iphones are inadequate as flight instruments. But it's true I can see my iphone screen in bright sunlight, by holding it at just the right angle. I do this for non time-critical information, like looking up airport information. But I want traffic information to be immediate.
I am presently angry at Flarm, for my suspicions of their harmful business practice that I mentioned. I might redirect my anger at Scout later.

[Dan Marotta]

I installed a cheapo Flarmview display.Â* It cost about $200, is daylight
readable, and displays Flarm, ADS-B, and Mode 3/A and Mode S transponder
equipped aircraft.Â* If I had to complain it would be that it's small,
but it works extremely well.Â* Oh, and it was plug and play.

On 11/29/2019 10:18 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 7:53:53 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> wrote on 11/27/2019 6:08 PM:
>>> On Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 9:15:31 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> On 11/26/2019 2:23 PM, wrote:
>>>>> My comment was based on my frustration in that I can buy a Scout adsb-in receiver for $200, but have no sunlight-readable display to use with it. My iphone is not bright enough.
>>>> You could try a hood initially made of light cardboard to shade your
>>>> phone.Â* I use an iPad in my C-180 and it works just fine given the shade
>>>> from the high wing.Â* It's practically useless in direct sunlight.
>>>> --
>>>> Dan, 5J
>>> Thanks Dan, but an phone is just not bright enough in my bright glider cockpit. The traffic displays sold for Flarm would do fine, but they only accept flarm data, which means I'd have to buy a flarm system. I suspect this to be a marketing decision to drive flarm sales. Because I think this, I will definitely not buy any flarm product.
>>>
>> I use an iPhone 6 Plus in my glider to run iGlide. Brightness is adequate to good,
>> ditto when using Foreflight or similar (I can switch between the applications
>> while flying). You can buy an iPhone newer iPhone 6, some of which are even
>> brighter, especially the newest ones.
>>
>> Instead of being angry with Flarm for displays that work only with Flarm, be angry
>> at the Scout provider for making it Foreflight/OS only, and not compatible with
>> some other display.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> Hi Eric,
> I agree that screen brightness is a personal opinion. My opinion is that iphones are inadequate as flight instruments. But it's true I can see my iphone screen in bright sunlight, by holding it at just the right angle. I do this for non time-critical information, like looking up airport information. But I want traffic information to be immediate.
> I am presently angry at Flarm, for my suspicions of their harmful business practice that I mentioned. I might redirect my anger at Scout later.

--
Dan, 5J