LS3a oxygen cylinder specification

[ian]

I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.

The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
been at that time?

Thanks

Ian

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 2:33:48 AM UTC-8, ian wrote:
> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>
> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
> been at that time?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian

Ian, perhaps this document is useful.
Jim

https://www.eiga.eu/publications/eiga-documents/doc-3619-catalogue-of-control-marks-on-cylinders/

[ian]

On 12/3/19 6:44 PM, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 2:33:48 AM UTC-8, ian wrote:
>> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
>> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
>> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
>> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
>> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
>> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>>
>> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
>> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
>> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
>> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
>> been at that time?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ian
>
> Ian, perhaps this document is useful.
> Jim
>
> https://www.eiga.eu/publications/eiga-documents/doc-3619-catalogue-of-control-marks-on-cylinders/
>

Thanks that looks very interesting, I am sure we can tie my cylinder
back to an original inspection. Also a lot of other information on that
site, including lists of known defective cylinders (I don't believe mine
is on that list).

Any idea what the actual manufacturing spec would have been applicable
in Germany in the late 1970's?

Ian

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Interesting document on pressure tank markings. Is there a US version of this somewhere?

Thanks, John

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 7:55:41 AM UTC-8, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Interesting document on pressure tank markings. Is there a US version of this somewhere?
>
> Thanks, John

Of course I can't find a document I've had for years, a simple explanation of cylinder markings!

Here's a course from Los Alamos National Lab.

https://permalink.lanl.gov/object/tr?what=info:lanl-repo/lareport/LA-UR-13-28838

And cylinder manufacturer markings.

http://www.ctcseminars.com/files/technical/CYLMFGRLIST2017.pdf

Jim

[ian]

On 12/3/19 6:44 PM, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 2:33:48 AM UTC-8, ian wrote:
>> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
>> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
>> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
>> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
>> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
>> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>>
>> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
>> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
>> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
>> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
>> been at that time?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ian
>
> Ian, perhaps this document is useful.
> Jim
>
> https://www.eiga.eu/publications/eiga-documents/doc-3619-catalogue-of-control-marks-on-cylinders/
>

That was useful but still not enough for the inspector. They could
identify the inspectorate stamping. But the need to identify the
manufacturer as well as the standard that it was made to.

Any suggestions on interpreting the manufacturer's markings as well the
applicable standard?

Thanks

Ian

[[email protected]]

Why go through all of the bureaucratic BS? If a dive shop has to comply with excessive inspection protocols, take the cylinder to a hydrotest facility that deals with welding cylinders. I have been getting cylinders tested through Argyle Welding (company has been bought by Praxair https://www.praxair.com/). Cost is about $35 and it generally takes a week or so.

[ian]

On 12/6/19 2:58 PM, wrote:
> Why go through all of the bureaucratic BS? If a dive shop has to comply with excessive inspection protocols, take the cylinder to a hydrotest facility that deals with welding cylinders. I have been getting cylinders tested through Argyle Welding (company has been bought by Praxair https://www.praxair.com/). Cost is about $35 and it generally takes a week or so.
>

The inspectors main line of business is fire extinguishes. There is a
big issue with local legislation regarding pressure vessels. They have
to be tested and certified before they can be filled. Inspection fee is
only bout $7 but he won't do it if the certification standard is not
stamped on the bottle.

Then I have another issue, the local dive shop says they wont fill steel
cylinders over 30 years old, but that is just their policy, it is no
longer part of legislation. But there are others who might ...

[[email protected]]

If it was any cylinder except the steel one you have, I would just say bite the bullet and replace it with a new aluminum cylinder. Unfortunately, the receptacle in the LS-3 ONLY accepts that particular size, and they are difficult to find. The aluminum equivalent is too large in diameter to fit in the mount socket, and modifying the 'glass is a difficult job that brings its own problems with getting approval for the change. Where are you located? I might be able to direct you to a hydrotest facility that won't make you jump through flaming hoops. (Never a good idea with an O2 cylinder :-)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 12/6/2019 6:52 AM:
> If it was any cylinder except the steel one you have, I would just say bite the bullet and replace it with a new aluminum cylinder. Unfortunately, the receptacle in the LS-3 ONLY accepts that particular size, and they are difficult to find. The aluminum equivalent is too large in diameter to fit in the mount socket, and modifying the 'glass is a difficult job that brings its own problems with getting approval for the change. Where are you located? I might be able to direct you to a hydrotest facility that won't make you jump through flaming hoops. (Never a good idea with an O2 cylinder :-)
>
Expensive, perhaps, but can a cylinder that fits be purchased from Europe? In one
of my older gliders, a medical bottle would barely fit, but it did go in.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Ian Kennedy]

At 15:26 06 December 2019, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/6/2019 6:52 AM:
>> If it was any cylinder except the steel one you have, I would just say
>bite the bullet and replace it with a new aluminum cylinder.
Unfortunately,
>the receptacle in the LS-3 ONLY accepts that particular size, and they
are
>difficult to find. The aluminum equivalent is too large in diameter to
fit
>in the mount socket, and modifying the 'glass is a difficult job that
>brings its own problems with getting approval for the change. Where are
you
>located? I might be able to direct you to a hydrotest facility that won't
>make you jump through flaming hoops. (Never a good idea with an O2
cylinder
>:-)
>>
>Expensive, perhaps, but can a cylinder that fits be purchased from
Europe?
>In one
>of my older gliders, a medical bottle would barely fit, but it did go in.
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
Hello Ian,

Navboys in the UK sell a bottle that fits,

https://www.navboys.com/3L_Steel_100mm_Oxy_Cylinder.html

Got one a couple of months ago when I bought my LS3-17.

Out of interest, how do you secure the bottle from sliding forward?

Cheers

Ian Kennedy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 3:33:48 AM UTC-7, ian wrote:
> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>
> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
> been at that time?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 3:33:48 AM UTC-7, ian wrote:
> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>
> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
> been at that time?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian

This Summer I went down to the local welding/medical supply business in town and inquired about steel O2 bottles. They had a couple in the back that fit perfectly in my LS3. For about $65 they put on a new valve, did a hydro test and filled it with O2. They were happy to get rid of it.

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 8:40:32 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>
> This Summer I went down to the local welding/medical supply business in town and inquired about steel O2 bottles. They had a couple in the back that fit perfectly in my LS3. For about $65 they put on a new valve, did a hydro test and filled it with O2. They were happy to get rid of it.

The steel E cylinder was the standard medical cylinder. I've swapped "out of hydro" E cylinders at a local supplier. They did the same, swapping the medical valve for my CGA540 while I waited. Think it was $18 at the time.
But those cylinders are getting rare.
AL-682 is the E equivalent, but slightly larger diameter. If the mounting tube is tapered, perhaps a D equivalent AL-415 will fit.
You might try borrowing from friends to see what will fit. With a modern dispenser system a smaller cylinder goes a long way, especially if you're not routinely cruising at high altitude.
Jim

[[email protected]]

My gas supplier (Matheson-TriGas) finally scrapped all the steel E cylinders they had. I picked through the pile before they did and only got a couple of decent ones that weren't too rusted and banged up. Had them sandblasted, hydrotested and repainted. Unfortunately, I sold the last one three years ago and haven't been able to find any more. FYI, the diameter of the steel E cylinder is 100 mm. The Mountain High E&S equivalent AL-415 is 111 mm (4..4 in.) as is the AL-682. The cylinder lengths are 410 mm (16.2 in.) and 650 mm (25.6 in.) Neither of them will fit into an LS or Schleicher cylinder receptacle. (At least models through the ASG-29. I don't know whether the newer gliders have been changed to accept aluminum cylinders.) Unfortunately, European glider manufacturers do not take into account the needs of pilots flying in Western soaring conditions. I am regularly called on by European visitors to Moriarty for assistance in modifying their tiny little O2 systems to accommodate long high altitude flights.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, 3 December 2019 03:33:48 UTC-7, ian wrote:
> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>
> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
> been at that time?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ian

I have a LS3-a and I use a KF-011 cylinder from Mountain High. It is a little smaller diameter so I taped two 1/2" strips of foam around it at each end. It fits in there snugly and doesn't go anywhere. It is easily removed for refilling. Using an EDS (electronic delivery system)from Mountain High makes O2 last a long time so the volume of the cylinder is not a problem.

R5

[[email protected]]

The KF-011 Kevlar wrapped cylinder is a good choice, but with a couple of drawbacks: It has a 15 year life limit from the date of the first hydro test before it must be removed from service, meaning after the expiration date, you will have a hard time getting it refilled at an FBO, you won't be able to get it tested and it might make your annual airframe inspection problematic. The second drawback is that it costs about 350% of a comparable aluminum cylinder. ($700 vs. $200 or so from Mountain High) But, if you can't find a suitable steel E cylinder, it might be the only choice that doesn't involve surgery on the aircraft to make an aluminum cylinder fit.

[John Foster]

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> The KF-011 Kevlar wrapped cylinder is a good choice, but with a couple of drawbacks: It has a 15 year life limit from the date of the first hydro test before it must be removed from service, meaning after the expiration date, you will have a hard time getting it refilled at an FBO, you won't be able to get it tested and it might make your annual airframe inspection problematic. The second drawback is that it costs about 350% of a comparable aluminum cylinder. ($700 vs. $200 or so from Mountain High) But, if you can't find a suitable steel E cylinder, it might be the only choice that doesn't involve surgery on the aircraft to make an aluminum cylinder fit.

Does it matter if the bottom of the cylinder is flat or rounded? I believe older bottles had rounded bottoms, whereas newer ones are flat on the bottom.

[ian]

On 12/3/19 12:33 PM, ian wrote:
> I am trying to get my oxygen cylinder inspected for refilling. It is due
> for a hydro test and inspection. However there has been a shake up of
> cylinder inspections in the local dive industry and as a result the
> inspector is checking all the paperwork very thoroughly. Unfortunately
> he cannot identify the manufacture specification from the markings on
> the cylinder, which is a bit of an issue.
>
> The cylinder was supplied by Rolladen Schneider, with my LS3a, when it
> was delivered new. It is a steel 4l cylinder, manufactured in Germany in
> 1979 that fits exactly into the molded O2 cylinder recess in the glider.
> Does anybody know what the applicable manufacturing specification would
> been at that time?

I am back to square one with this. I need to track down some records
that will establish who made the cylinder and what standard it was made to.

Is there anyone in Germany who could assist?

Would this cylinder be eligible for inspection and re-full in Germany today?

(I could look for another 100mm diameter 4l cylinder, but they are very
rare. Or I could get it refilled privately, but first prize is to
document the cylinder that I currently have).

Thanks

Ian