15 Hour Wonders

[Bob Youngblood]

The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

[[email protected]]

Ridiculous, blind leading the blind

[Tony[_5_]]

It's 15 hrs PIC time.

[son_of_flubber]

Maybe a CFI-ASEL adds CFI-Glider so that he can teach students to fly motorgliders. A number of PPL-ASEL move to motorgliders and fly them like airplanes.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

Has this ever been a problem? 99.99% of power CFIs are too smart, sensible, and scared to become CFIG add ons in 15 hours and go to battle with students. Chances are the .01% don't want to become CFIGs. Plus clubs have the ability to say no thank you to 15 hour CFIGs. I suppose it is a sort of loophole, or those guys are cheating compare to the 'I ran wings for 20 years before becoming a CFIG' crowd, yawn. No need to ask for more restrictions and no need to lose sleep over having more freedom than might be sensible, if such a thing is even possible.

[SoaringXCellence]

Actually the regulations state that any add-on category rating only requires 15 hours in category.

When I was a DPE I tested a few SEL to Glider CFI candidates, all of them wanted to become more proficient gliders pilots. Many of them used the add-on process as a renewal for their CFI certificate and never intended to teach in gliders. It's likely they have been teaching for at least two years before adding the glider rating.

They must also have received instruction from a glider certificated instructor before taking the test (though no endorsement is needed for the first attempt). They must also pass a knowledge test (short version, 25 questions) on soaring principles and topics.

The regulation also states that they must pass a Commercial Glider test first, before applying for the CFI-G.

I recite all of this to make the point that this is not a casual, single weekend process, and I think very few would actually apply for the test with only 15 hours.

Mike

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 9:49:07 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> Actually the regulations state that any add-on category rating only requires 15 hours in category.
>
> When I was a DPE I tested a few SEL to Glider CFI candidates, all of them wanted to become more proficient gliders pilots. Many of them used the add-on process as a renewal for their CFI certificate and never intended to teach in gliders. It's likely they have been teaching for at least two years before adding the glider rating.
>
> They must also have received instruction from a glider certificated instructor before taking the test (though no endorsement is needed for the first attempt). They must also pass a knowledge test (short version, 25 questions) on soaring principles and topics.
>
> The regulation also states that they must pass a Commercial Glider test first, before applying for the CFI-G.
>
> I recite all of this to make the point that this is not a casual, single weekend process, and I think very few would actually apply for the test with only 15 hours.
>
> Mike

Mike, IMHO the process has become a weekend gig. I can tell you of an instance where this has happened and I just sit back and shake my head and laugh..The current system is allowing for low experience level teachers to instruct introductory level pilots and the results will and are leading to a lesser quality of learning through experience.
I am not a teacher, never intended to even consider getting a CFIG, I would probably end up in jail from hitting someone in the back of the head, but I do have something that is much more valuable than that rating. There is no substitute for experience and that does go a long way, you would probably agree. When looking for a surgeon would you consider experience to be a factor?
I do fly both ends of the rope, and I can state for a fact that sometimes I say to myself that I hope this idiot doesn't kill me! Hopefully I have a few more years of glider flying left in me, but the experience has been great.

[[email protected]]

Do you know of an instance where a 15 hour CFIG went straight to frequent teaching? If so isn't that more a fault of the club or commercial operation? We get it it would be unsound if 300 hour airplane CFIs were doing 15 hours in gliders then going off teaching, but I don't see it happening. The only place it probably has happened is in the aviation flight academies that operated motor gliders. They must have had enough rules or gray hair supervision to make it work.
Yes I get the indignation cause it could happen and those 15 hour CFIG candidates didn't suffer enough. Personally I'd welcome airplane CFI add on to toss the CFIG in the pile early on, then take the process of using it really slow. Toss em easy stuff occasionally while they are recreational soaring and building experience. I encourage private pilot airplane transitions to jump straight to Commercial, not to immediately go out and hustle rides but so years down the road they are one less hurdle from becoming CFIs. As to the horror of creating low experienced commercial glider pilots most decline and do the private add on.

[Tony[_5_]]

I was probably a 500 hr airplane CFI when I got my 15 hrs PIC and added CFIG...

You act like this I some sort of new development. This has been the rule for a very long time. This is nothing new. It also applies to all additional categories for CFIs so it's not a glider specific thing.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 7:05:48 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> I was probably a 500 hr airplane CFI when I got my 15 hrs PIC and added CFIG...
>
> You act like this I some sort of new development. This has been the rule for a very long time. This is nothing new. It also applies to all additional categories for CFIs so it's not a glider specific thing.

Tony, I never said that this was a new development! I am saying that it is a very low requirement, I think most people would agree.

[richard wilkening]

The 15 Hr Wonder you bemoan had to pass the same CFI-G Checkride using the same PTS Standards that any other CFI-G Applicant has to pass. The point that low time CFIs are Instructing low time students is valid but has been the reality in power instruction for decades. If it was creating large problems it would have manifested itself long ago. In the Power world, Instructing is generally a way to build flight time after which the pilot moves on to less stressful, more lucrative assignments.

For me, the CFI Initial Checkride (1990) required more intense preparation than for my ATP (1993) and later Type Ratings on a jet airliners. As a very recent CFI-G Applicant (2019), I approached it with the same level of preparation as my initial so long ago. Do I know everything about gliders? No. Do you?

As Tony pointed out, the 15 hr. requirement is PIC, which means glider time AFTER certification as a Private or Commercial Glider pilot. Unless this low glider time pilot has access to a modern high performance ship, they may have had a lot of flights to get that 15 hrs.

[[email protected][_2_]]

New CFIGs tend to be overly conservative and that compensates somewhat for their experience level. They understand the science, working on teaching techniques and methods. There will always be ‘surprises’ irregardless of the experience level of the instructor. No pattern of concern has been established due to instructor experience level, or we would have been made aware by the Masters gatekeepers Knauff, Compton, and others.
New instructors spool up pretty quick, and the students desire not to die goes a long way.
I’ve solo a few 14 year olds on Harris Hill and elsewhere, and that always amaze me. I saw Star Wars with 7 of them.
I was a brand new instructor from Florida entrusted with their lives. I yelled, they soloed. It was tough. Fun tough.
What a hoot.
They all made it back to the field...but I, their instructor...landed a ride in the valley.
They yelled, I stood at attention. Others laugh.

R

[[email protected]]

Fake news

[Paul Agnew]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Fake news

Spot on.

Villifying pilots who legally meet the FAA requirements and pass the exam just adds to our burden trying to stem our declining CFI-G population.

To become a CFI-G you have to have already earned a Commercial Glider Pilot Certificate - not a gimme by any means. Having an CFI-A decreases the minimum requirements a little bit, but it doesn't change the Practical Test Standards that have to be met. CFI-G's don't want to sign off someone who isn't going to pass the exam and DPE's don't award flight instructor certificates unless they are confident the applicant is competent.

In my case, I added on my Comm-Glider four-and-a-half years ago to go along with my ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R (with around two thousand hours instructing) and 21,000 hours of flying. And, I still flew gliders for four years to gain the experience, not hours, I felt I needed to be an effective instructor. The experience has made me a better glider pilot overall, so it was worth it. Too bad there's no place to use it around here.

Let's talk about experience vs attitude, shall we?
In the past four years I've seen our local senior glider instructors land short of the runway on a road with a student, send a student for their first solo without their student pilot certificate or logbook endorsement, allow a minor to continue soloing well past the expiration of his solo endorsement, continue flying a glider they declared should be grounded and justifying doing so by saying they limit their max speed to 80kts, look the other way when someone (not a CFI-G) decided to autotow a known marginal pre-solo student so he could do some "landings" and later look the other way when that same student came back from a solo flight and recounted how he got himself into a spin and somehow survived when he, admittedly, used all of the wrong recovery procedures, and one who went around the patch only one time with a private pilot who was out of 90-day currency to carry passengers and declare her legal to do so without the full three landing required by FARs.

Being long in the tooth with a thick glider logbook doesn't endow you with superpowers or forgive poor judgement. Having the right attitude and applying one's previous experience flying and instructing in other types of heavier than air flying machines makes a huge difference in the equation.

I trust those endorsing CFI-G applicants and the DPEs to be the gatekeepers and to have all of us in the sport of soaring in their minds when they sign off a new CFI-G.

Can I have an AMEN?

Paul A.
CFI-A (1986), CFI-R (1993), and CFI-G (2019)
Jupiter, FL

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Paul Agnew wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Fake news
>
> Spot on.
>
> Villifying pilots who legally meet the FAA requirements and pass the exam just adds to our burden trying to stem our declining CFI-G population.
>
> To become a CFI-G you have to have already earned a Commercial Glider Pilot Certificate - not a gimme by any means. Having an CFI-A decreases the minimum requirements a little bit, but it doesn't change the Practical Test Standards that have to be met. CFI-G's don't want to sign off someone who isn't going to pass the exam and DPE's don't award flight instructor certificates unless they are confident the applicant is competent.
>
> In my case, I added on my Comm-Glider four-and-a-half years ago to go along with my ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R (with around two thousand hours instructing) and 21,000 hours of flying. And, I still flew gliders for four years to gain the experience, not hours, I felt I needed to be an effective instructor. The experience has made me a better glider pilot overall, so it was worth it. Too bad there's no place to use it around here.
>
> Let's talk about experience vs attitude, shall we?
> In the past four years I've seen our local senior glider instructors land short of the runway on a road with a student, send a student for their first solo without their student pilot certificate or logbook endorsement, allow a minor to continue soloing well past the expiration of his solo endorsement, continue flying a glider they declared should be grounded and justifying doing so by saying they limit their max speed to 80kts, look the other way when someone (not a CFI-G) decided to autotow a known marginal pre-solo student so he could do some "landings" and later look the other way when that same student came back from a solo flight and recounted how he got himself into a spin and somehow survived when he, admittedly, used all of the wrong recovery procedures, and one who went around the patch only one time with a private pilot who was out of 90-day currency to carry passengers and declare her legal to do so without the full three landing required by FARs.
>
> Being long in the tooth with a thick glider logbook doesn't endow you with superpowers or forgive poor judgement. Having the right attitude and applying one's previous experience flying and instructing in other types of heavier than air flying machines makes a huge difference in the equation.
>
> I trust those endorsing CFI-G applicants and the DPEs to be the gatekeepers and to have all of us in the sport of soaring in their minds when they sign off a new CFI-G.
>
> Can I have an AMEN?
>
> Paul A.
> CFI-A (1986), CFI-R (1993), and CFI-G (2019)
> Jupiter, FL

Agnew, get a life, you could not even stay behind the tow plane and blamed it on you daughters hair. Glad you took the the bait. Bob

[Paul Agnew]

Bob Youngblood said:
>
> Agnew, get a life, you could not even stay behind the tow plane and blamed it on you daughters hair. Glad you took the the bait. Bob

Standard response. You need a new line, Bob. And, internet trolling does not make you look better.

So, you're calling ME the 15 hour wonder? That's hilarious...and a bit sad to see from you - a founder and leader of the Treasure Coast Soaring Club. Have you seen my logbook? Do you have any idea of what I did to prepare for my checkride and where I've flown over the past four-plus years? Getting my CFI-G somewhere else instead of with your club must have really stuck in your craw for some reason. Don't take it personally.

So, kiting...let's put it out there. The lesson I learned is a badge of honor. Two years ago I briefly kited when I looked away from the towplane for a second to check on where I would go if the rope broke. (West side of Quad Lakes...empty lots...) I immediately corrected and was reaching for the release, but had the towplane in sight and was able to easily get back into position. As soon as I landed, I went right over and spoke with the tow pilot to apologize and to see if he had any feedback for me. He said he just thought I was letting my daughter fly and said he sees worse with students. (As you know, this was her first flight with me after her cancer surgery to remove her knee. Thanks for using her for your baseless vendetta.) I spoke with our "chief flight instructor" about it, got some pointers, and it was put to bed by everyone else but you for some reason. It was a great lesson learned for me. I commented on her mane of hair and how it needed to be tied back so I could see the panel, but I never blamed the kiting on it. That was on me. I admit my mistakes and learn from them.

You must have been satisfied at the time since you pressed me to give a number of revenue rides soon after. Money talks, I guess.

Now, I sure you don't want all of the Treasure Coast Soaring Club dirty laundry aired out here, so I'll just wish you well with the upcoming annual club meeting and hope to see TCSC turn the corner some day.

Paul

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 7:39:08 PM UTC-5, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Bob Youngblood said:
> >
> > Agnew, get a life, you could not even stay behind the tow plane and blamed it on you daughters hair. Glad you took the the bait. Bob
>
> Standard response. You need a new line, Bob. And, internet trolling does not make you look better.
>
> So, you're calling ME the 15 hour wonder? That's hilarious...and a bit sad to see from you - a founder and leader of the Treasure Coast Soaring Club. Have you seen my logbook? Do you have any idea of what I did to prepare for my checkride and where I've flown over the past four-plus years? Getting my CFI-G somewhere else instead of with your club must have really stuck in your craw for some reason. Don't take it personally.
>
> So, kiting...let's put it out there. The lesson I learned is a badge of honor. Two years ago I briefly kited when I looked away from the towplane for a second to check on where I would go if the rope broke. (West side of Quad Lakes...empty lots...) I immediately corrected and was reaching for the release, but had the towplane in sight and was able to easily get back into position. As soon as I landed, I went right over and spoke with the tow pilot to apologize and to see if he had any feedback for me. He said he just thought I was letting my daughter fly and said he sees worse with students.. (As you know, this was her first flight with me after her cancer surgery to remove her knee. Thanks for using her for your baseless vendetta.) I spoke with our "chief flight instructor" about it, got some pointers, and it was put to bed by everyone else but you for some reason. It was a great lesson learned for me. I commented on her mane of hair and how it needed to be tied back so I could see the panel, but I never blamed the kiting on it. That was on me. I admit my mistakes and learn from them.
>
> You must have been satisfied at the time since you pressed me to give a number of revenue rides soon after. Money talks, I guess.
>
> Now, I sure you don't want all of the Treasure Coast Soaring Club dirty laundry aired out here, so I'll just wish you well with the upcoming annual club meeting and hope to see TCSC turn the corner some day.
>
> Paul

Yes Alfred, you are a 15 hour wonder. Probably 12 taking away those hours that you logged in the back seat of a reputable guys ship! Maybe I should post all those letters to the club that you sent. shall I go any further? So glad that you are gone, wishing you well in your new flying site. Bob

[Paul Agnew]

Is everyone enjoying this, yet? See the pattern?

You got me. My first name is Alfred. It was my father's name and I've was teased about it back when I was a child. You're the first adult to try it.

Feel free to post any of the emails I've sent regarding the club when I was tasked with trying to help organize the chaos. Hell, I may post them just for posterity.

Remember, I was recruited to go back on the board last year to help straighten things out and left after being duly elected when you orchestrated a revote to get yourself back on the board under dubious pretenses. This is a hobby - something we do for fun and I let you have your party without my help and to eliminate the growing liability. Newsflash - I just turned down another request this week to come get back on the board with the same hollow promise that you were taking a lesser role. Fool me once...

Post your own emails while you're at it. I'm sure everyone will find them entertaining.

Finally, I caution you against making false statements about my experience. You're patently wrong and are fabricating your assertions out of thin air with the intent to slander me. It's petty and embarrassing to watch.

Alfred "Alfie" Agnew

[Matt McBee]

Respectfully - could we please get back on topic and leave the personal vendettas to a private venue?
Matt

[Ramy[_2_]]

I recall there was a fatal accident in Hawaii a decade ago or so with a very low time, young instructor who was only flying for few weeks. Very little experience but met the minimum the FAA requires. IIRC he did not manage to recover from a spin.
I don’t have a link but I am sure one can search for it in the NTSB site.

Ramy

[2G]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:10:47 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> I recall there was a fatal accident in Hawaii a decade ago or so with a very low time, young instructor who was only flying for few weeks. Very little experience but met the minimum the FAA requires. IIRC he did not manage to recover from a spin.
> I don’t have a link but I am sure one can search for it in the NTSB site.
>
> Ramy

Here is what you are referring to:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20050420X00484&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 2:38:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:10:47 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > I recall there was a fatal accident in Hawaii a decade ago or so with a very low time, young instructor who was only flying for few weeks. Very little experience but met the minimum the FAA requires. IIRC he did not manage to recover from a spin.
> > I don’t have a link but I am sure one can search for it in the NTSB site.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Here is what you are referring to:
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20050420X00484&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA

Yes, that was a glider pilot who had only been qualified for three weeks.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 2:38:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:10:47 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > I recall there was a fatal accident in Hawaii a decade ago or so with a very low time, young instructor who was only flying for few weeks. Very little experience but met the minimum the FAA requires. IIRC he did not manage to recover from a spin.
> > I don’t have a link but I am sure one can search for it in the NTSB site.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Here is what you are referring to:
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20050420X00484&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA

The SSA also made the statement that the pilot in question had been given a quick path to his rating. The NTSB noted lack of experience and inadequate training. This is exactly the message conveyed in the original post, 15 hour wonder. The standards are set to a minimum, which IMHO results in low experience instructors not capable of teaching proper techniques.

[[email protected]]

I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."

While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.

My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience..

Walt Connelly

[[email protected]]

Ditto what Walt says. I fly pipeline work in my winter off season from crop spraying and am responsible for training new pipeline fliers. The vast majority of our pilots are young CFI’s who are looking for additional hours on their way to the airlines. I can tell you first hand that the level of stick and rudder skills in the vast majority of these guys is attrocious!

Yes they can make a 360 holding alt to +-100 and airspeed +- 10 but just barely, with the nose pitching up n down and the ball all over the place and they are slavishly dependant on their instruments. Yes they “pass� the commercial standard but they have no feel or understanding, or more serious, no desire to understand the nuances of proper airmanship. I quite literally have to reteach these guys how to make a steep coordinated turn. There are exceptions, I do run into a few guys who love flying and want to learn all they can of the foundations of airmanship. These guys are a joy to teach. But they are the exception.

What we have is something of a dumbing down of basic flying skills. And this is being passed down the line. While guys are great at working the electronics and at flight communications, they are not taught or encouraged to perfect the flying of the airplane. I’m afraid this same trend is working its way into soaring.

[[email protected]]

Paul, I think our issue is not the shortage of CFI-G’s, but their reluctance to use their rating. Our club has three who are licensed but don’t teach. I think you will see the same trend nationally. Just in the last issue of Soaring there are at least five new cfi’s in the picture section, but I wonder how many of them are actually going to become active in teaching.

As for guys meeting the FAA standards to get a rating, I think my post above and walts experience says/demonstrates what we think about that.

[Tango Whisky]

Le mardi 10 décembre 2019 15:31:15 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."
>
> While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.
>
> My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience.
>
> Walt Connelly

In Germany or Switzerland, any new CFI gets a preliminary rating and is required to do his teaching for the first 150 flights or so under the supervision of an experienced CFI. Only then his rating is turned into the "permanent" 3-years rating.
Training towards the rating is a 14 days fulltime course with an entry test, and a final test. Candidates must carry the endorsement of the head of the flight school they want to teach for (typically the club's chief instructor).

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 9:31:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."
>
> While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.
>
> My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience.
>
> Walt Connelly

Well put Walt, you hit the nail on the head. I like you have been around this game for quiet a few years, have seen many accidents and have watched several new instructors tell students the opposite of what they should know. There is no substitute for experience, I remember the instructor that endorsed me for my checkride back in the 70's. A very good instructor and qualified to say the least, his obit noted that he had 60 thousand hours of flight time. When Bill Harris wasn't flying for Delta he was at the glider club in Miami teaching. When Mary Gaffaney was called to do the checkride there was never a question about the students ability. The common factor there was experience, plain and simple and never any doubt when Mary was called to examine.
Our club has very good experienced instructors, and my towplanes are safe as you have observed. Our club double checks with two instructors prior to taking a student to the checkride phase. Just last weekend one of our instructors asked me to get another instructor to confirm the students ability prior to the checkride. That instructor happened to be CFI in rotor and aircraft along with CFIG and when he is not flying a G5, or his helicopter, or Staggerwing he is teaching in gliders for volunteer work at the club. The big attribute is experience and there is no substitute for it.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:22:28 PM UTC-6, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

"There's no substitute for experience." Well, there's more to it than that isn't there? While it is popular to cringe at the idea of a pilot with less time in the seat to move through ratings and endorsements quickly it's the old salts I've seen make the worst mistakes. As a former "wunderkind" I watched the Experts do all of the following:
1.) Spin a glider onto it's wing tip from 10 feet with a passenger after an extraordinarily poor traffic pattern with multiple better scenarios available.
2.) Stall a 2-33 on short final while trying to show another CFIG how short they could land into a headwind so they wouldn't have to walk so far after landing.
3.) Pull up to clear power lines after letting a student get too low and fly too wide of a pattern. (with better out landing options)
4.) Strike props.
5.) Wrap tow ropes around wings demonstrating slack rope recovery.
6.) Santa Clause flight reviews for buddies who shouldn't be flying.
7.) No endorsement solos.
8.) Check ride sign offs without proper endorsements.
9.) A general attitude of having seen everything and knowing everything. But you'll never see one of them at a seminar or with a book in their hand. And you sure as hell won't see them outside of the traffic pattern let alone on a cross country flight.

Geez I could come up with examples all day... It takes effort to be a good CFI, while the low time instructor may not have the time in the seat they can usually make up for it with good margins and dedication. They won't be perfect but they'll do better than the guy who's in it for a free tow.
I'll agree that there is a lack of quality in the instruction available. However, if you look a bit past the hourly requirement you'll see there isn't much to earning any of the glider certificates in the U.S. The PTS/ACS at every certificate level is designed to evaluate a person's ability to fly a 2-33 in the local area and traffic pattern. Examiners seem to gloss over the sections about soaring. I understand in Europe CFIG applicants have much higher standards then the US. Maybe if we improved our product our population wouldn't be in decline?

[[email protected]]

Bob,

My point is that time is not the Be All and End All, other skills which one brings to the table are important. Intelligence, desire, previous teaching experience and an in check ego can make the 15 hour pilot the perfect candidate. The disparity in flying ability from one person to another is ginormous, as a tow pilot you know this well as do I. Pull a guy who has flown in the military for 20 years and/or the airlines and then pull a low time private pilot. Yes there are some outstanding PPLs but in general the difference is palpable.

Someone like Paul with an ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R, 2000 hours instructing and 21,000 hours of flying brings much to the table. You can't buy that, it comes with time and experience. Those of us without that level of experience would do well to pay attention when they speak. That is NOT to say that someone with 15 hours PIC in a glider and wet ink on a CFIG cant be a good instructor and someone has to be their first student. However as Tango Whiskey noted in Germany and Switzerland a new CFIG is supervised for a period of time by an experienced instructor, a requirement that might need to be adopted here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I was recruited to teach Nuclear Medicine to student technologists at a Community College. I met all but one of the minimum requirements and could have picked that up easily but I'm not the type. I've seen lots of teachers and instructors who were not the type. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now happy helicopter pilot.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Bob,
>
> My point is that time is not the Be All and End All, other skills which one brings to the table are important. Intelligence, desire, previous teaching experience and an in check ego can make the 15 hour pilot the perfect candidate. The disparity in flying ability from one person to another is ginormous, as a tow pilot you know this well as do I. Pull a guy who has flown in the military for 20 years and/or the airlines and then pull a low time private pilot. Yes there are some outstanding PPLs but in general the difference is palpable.
>
> Someone like Paul with an ATP, 5 Type Ratings, Comm-ASEL, Comm-Rotorcraft, CFI-A and CFI-R, 2000 hours instructing and 21,000 hours of flying brings much to the table. You can't buy that, it comes with time and experience. Those of us without that level of experience would do well to pay attention when they speak. That is NOT to say that someone with 15 hours PIC in a glider and wet ink on a CFIG cant be a good instructor and someone has to be their first student. However as Tango Whiskey noted in Germany and Switzerland a new CFIG is supervised for a period of time by an experienced instructor, a requirement that might need to be adopted here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
>
> I was recruited to teach Nuclear Medicine to student technologists at a Community College. I met all but one of the minimum requirements and could have picked that up easily but I'm not the type. I've seen lots of teachers and instructors who were not the type. Like Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former tow pilot
> Now happy helicopter pilot.

Thanks Walt, this thread was not intended to make Paul an example. We, our club could give a rats ass. The thread was about the minimum requirements and how people perceived that requirement. Having an ATP, CFIH, and all the other acronyms are meaningless when it comes to gliders IMHO. Most of the ATP types have to learn what the rudders are all about.
There is a big difference between teaching glider flight and teaching soaring.

[[email protected]]

Bob
I sure agree on the ATP does not = soaring skills. There is dang near no crossover in knowledge from conmercial power flight (specially jet/complex) to soaring. In fact much of what is standard practice in that type of flying becomes down tight dangerous in gliders. What counts is stick n rudder skills, low level wx analysis, short field landing ability and other skills completely lacking in commercial aviation. Give me a guy with a couple hundred hours of back country low level flying over the ATP jet jockee with a thousand hours anytime.

[[email protected][_2_]]

NUTS!

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 5:57:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Bob
> I sure agree on the ATP does not = soaring skills. There is dang near no crossover in knowledge from conmercial power flight (specially jet/complex) to soaring. In fact much of what is standard practice in that type of flying becomes down tight dangerous in gliders. What counts is stick n rudder skills, low level wx analysis, short field landing ability and other skills completely lacking in commercial aviation. Give me a guy with a couple hundred hours of back country low level flying over the ATP jet jockee with a thousand hours anytime.

uneekc, you are completely correct, recently I had a guy come to the field and ask if he could tow, I raised my eyebrows and said how much time do you have? His reply was 20 thousand hours, my next question was do you have tailwheel time, answer, NO!, I am an ATP.
You mentioned short field landings, I promise you that these 15 hour wonders have no idea as to how you make an off field landing. They have no idea as to how to teach it. What about thermal entry and departure. Can they teach reading clouds, understanding of energy conversion in flight. The list goes on and on. Bob

[[email protected]]

FAA doesn't care about soaring, and that's fine by me. If you want to fly gliders, don't kill the towpilot and spot your landings. If you want to teach flying gliders that's about the extent of it as well as far as they're concerned. In Germany you need to take months of ground school to fly gliders. Careful complaining that gummint hain't big enuf. Our rules have been in place since before 1975 and I think they're fine.
Hawaii accident pilot was not an instructor nor acting as such. Fake news.

[Colten Coughlin]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:23:10 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> It's 15 hrs PIC time.

still 15 hour PIC is just about nothing. I am 16 and just got my Private Pilot glider 3 days ago and I have about that and I would not trust myself to teach others how to do what we do. It is dangerous and needs a very competent pilot to teach students how to fly.

[[email protected]]

Congrats!

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 12/10/2019 7:25 PM, Colten Coughlin wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:23:10 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
>> It's 15 hrs PIC time.
>
> still 15 hour PIC is just about nothing. I am 16 and just got my Private
> Pilot glider 3 days ago and I have about that and I would not trust myself
> to teach others how to do what we do. It is dangerous and needs a very
> competent pilot to teach students how to fly.

Congratulations on your PPG!!!

Instructing's like much else in life: A man's got to know his limitations.
(That's a well-known line from a movie made before you were born; your Dad
likely knows which one!)

Bob W.

[Tony[_5_]]

You have 15 total but only about 3 hrs PIC. You would first have to do about 150 more flights, turn 18, and pass the commercial test. Then train and pass the cfig test. By then you'd have a lot more experience and be minimally qualified to teach like I was in 2005. I'm looking forward to that day for you Colten :)

[[email protected]]

Well, there will always be a minimum threshold for everything. The FAA gets to make the decision and the industry must abide by it. Getting the FAA to make changes is like tying to herd cats. I learned what needed to be learned to pass the check ride without ever really "soaring." Soaring generally comes when one has a certificate and goes off in a two seater with an experienced "soaring" pilot.

Walt Connelly

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 8:28:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Well, there will always be a minimum threshold for everything. The FAA gets to make the decision and the industry must abide by it. Getting the FAA to make changes is like tying to herd cats. I learned what needed to be learned to pass the check ride without ever really "soaring." Soaring generally comes when one has a certificate and goes off in a two seater with an experienced "soaring" pilot.
>
> Walt Connelly

Fortunately, those are just minimums. I teach soaring, and I start teaching soaring pre-solo.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dennis Cavagnaro]

As a pilot who flew hang gliders for 38 years back in the day we learned pretty much by ourselves and got gliders with no experience. After a few flights I hooked up my harness to a buddy and launched him. No one would do that today and I doubt anyone wants to take on that responsibility without the expience and knowledge today. You don’t need rules all the time.

DC

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 05:52:44 -0800, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> Fortunately, those are just minimums. I teach soaring, and I start
> teaching soaring pre-solo.
>
Same is done over here: my path to solo is pretty much the norm in my
club except that my first logged flight was an aero-towed launch in an
ASK-21 at Front Royale, VA.

I learnt and was sent solo on a winch and didn't get my solo aero-tow
signoff until after I'd gotten my Silver C.

However, I was being taught how to find and centre thermals (9th flight)
before I was permitted to fly the top half of a winch launch (10th
flight). I flew the whole launch and the landing on my 19th flight with
just under 4.5 hours total time in ASK-21 and G.103 gliders. I was
introduced to the Puchacz on my 20th flight and started learning to plan
circuits on my 24th flight and was sent solo in an ASK-21 on my 80th
flight.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

After solo I flew a total of 20 solo flights, took my commercial add-on
check ride in the morning and was hauling paying passengers in a twin
Lark that afternoon.Â* That was all around the local field and I quickly
got tired of flying for "free" so I bought a Mosquito.

I had a friend who also had a Mosquito and he dragged me along on my
first cross country flight.Â* I never looked back after that.Â* My check
ride consisted of aero tow, stalls, slow flight, and normal and
emergency landings.Â* Soaring?Â* What was that?

On 12/11/2019 6:28 AM, wrote:
> Well, there will always be a minimum threshold for everything. The FAA gets to make the decision and the industry must abide by it. Getting the FAA to make changes is like tying to herd cats. I learned what needed to be learned to pass the check ride without ever really "soaring." Soaring generally comes when one has a certificate and goes off in a two seater with an experienced "soaring" pilot.
>
> Walt Connelly
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that those 15 hours are not
/_total_/ time, but glider time.Â* You won't find any CFI of any sort
with 15 hours of total time.Â* In my case I already had thousands of
hours and decades of experience before I got my Commercial Glider add
on.Â* This is just like politics; grab one little detail and blow it all
out of proportion.

On 12/10/2019 9:27 PM, Tony wrote:
> You have 15 total but only about 3 hrs PIC. You would first have to do about 150 more flights, turn 18, and pass the commercial test. Then train and pass the cfig test. By then you'd have a lot more experience and be minimally qualified to teach like I was in 2005. I'm looking forward to that day for you Colten :)

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

We should teach students to soar concurrently with gliding and to the best we can. But my take on the licensing bit(in the US) is that it is a glider license and soaring is the sport you use a glider license for. Get the gliding license, sometimes without any demonstration of soaring skill, then go off chase soaring at what ever level you wish to tackle.
Different from the European standards that ties soaring skill and experience in with the rating. Both have pluses and minuses.
For those horrified at the prospect of Airplane CFIs with 15 hour glider instructor add ons, whatever you do don't go look at the minimums for the Sport Pilot Glider Instructor rating. Hint 61.411 lolz
We should have a contest to see which club can make a Sport Pilot Glider Instructor with the least amount of time;)

[Bob Youngblood]

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> We should teach students to soar concurrently with gliding and to the best we can. But my take on the licensing bit(in the US) is that it is a glider license and soaring is the sport you use a glider license for. Get the gliding license, sometimes without any demonstration of soaring skill, then go off chase soaring at what ever level you wish to tackle.
> Different from the European standards that ties soaring skill and experience in with the rating. Both have pluses and minuses.
> For those horrified at the prospect of Airplane CFIs with 15 hour glider instructor add ons, whatever you do don't go look at the minimums for the Sport Pilot Glider Instructor rating. Hint 61.411 lolz
> We should have a contest to see which club can make a Sport Pilot Glider Instructor with the least amount of time;)

That would be a great contest, instead of The Voice, we could say The Course.

[Gary Wayland]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

Remembering my friend Capt. McQuigg.

After flying for Evergreen around the world for a couple of months, he would come down to the GP for some ASW27 time. Ok, Captain, that was the worst damn 27 landing I've ever seen Andy!

Well, Gary after flying 90 feet from the cockpit to the ground in 747's to 3' foot off the runway, it does take a bit of time to get that perspective back...... Of course, us glider guys love to pound our buddies in the ground when we see any APPEARANCE in weakness... When did I get pounded the worst by my glider buddies? When I was 2000 feet, miles into the Everglades and they were looking down at me at 5,000!

This has nothing to do with CFGI! We are always in the competition after that rope is released. Let us keep it light here!!!!

Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!

[Dan Marotta]

Good point!

I remember the 747 captains from Dallas who would drop it in at Black
Forest due to the higher true airspeed (ground speed) give the 9,000+
foot density altitude we so often had.

On 12/13/2019 4:02 PM, Gary Wayland wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
>> The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?
> Remembering my friend Capt. McQuigg.
>
> After flying for Evergreen around the world for a couple of months, he would come down to the GP for some ASW27 time. Ok, Captain, that was the worst damn 27 landing I've ever seen Andy!
>
> Well, Gary after flying 90 feet from the cockpit to the ground in 747's to 3' foot off the runway, it does take a bit of time to get that perspective back...... Of course, us glider guys love to pound our buddies in the ground when we see any APPEARANCE in weakness... When did I get pounded the worst by my glider buddies? When I was 2000 feet, miles into the Everglades and they were looking down at me at 5,000!
>
> This has nothing to do with CFGI! We are always in the competition after that rope is released. Let us keep it light here!!!!
>
> Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 11:38:16 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:10:47 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > I recall there was a fatal accident in Hawaii a decade ago or so with a very low time, young instructor who was only flying for few weeks. Very little experience but met the minimum the FAA requires. IIRC he did not manage to recover from a spin.
> > I don’t have a link but I am sure one can search for it in the NTSB site.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Here is what you are referring to:
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20050420X00484&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=LA

I read this report and I have several hundred hours in 2-32's. Sometime's mishap responsibility lays with the entire organization. For those that do not know a 2-32 is a great honest aircraft, just like a T-6 or SNJ, but ham fist it and you will end up in a spin. There is no way I would let a pilot with 48 hours total time fly one of these birds with passengers! While flying a 2-32 I have experienced an over the top spin entry out of a slip (just in one particular 2-32 and only slipping left wing down) I have had another 2-32 go from a spin to a spiral in ¼ turn. If you are low time this bird is best experienced with someone that knows what they are doing, in my humble opinion. I do love flying a 2-32 though.

[[email protected]]

Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!

I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter pilot.

[Gary Wayland]

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

Any SEL pilot usually thinks he knows it all when transitioning to gliders. If a 15-hour CFIG can't follow the tow plane, then we have a real problem. The FAA was thinking 7 seven hours when they made the rules, then doubled it to make sure, IMHO... And the guys at the field know if the CFIG pilot is an accident waiting to happen. They don't need to look at hours flown. Some come with natural gifts that others don't have. Hours are to get that little piece of paper. The rest is up to the community to police it.

Florida was crazy to give me a learner's permit to drive my Honda 90 on the road!
And the cops would chase us as we drove our Go-karts and homemade mini bikes on the road.
We had a big dent in the dryer that was in the garage. Flying into the garage as the garage door slammed down was a frequent occasion. The dent was a testament to too little brakes as we crashed hiding from the law!

I was in an R22 that had a boom strike! Now that is another story! And still alive to tell the tale!

What is the old saying? If you walked away from it, it was a good landing....

I did take a ride with a CFIG once that smelled of alcohol. The best pilot I ever ran into.

Credentials do not always make good instructors. But, I guess its the minimum that gives you status and keeps the insurance current...

[Gary Wayland]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:25:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!
>
> I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter pilot.

The kid was like 20! But, he was a good stick from Switzerland. But when I did my check ride in the R22, the examiner was an old pro. I learned more in the short flight then my entire time with my instructor, other than the basics...... I'm not taking anything from the instructor. Both made me a good Heli pilot...

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?
>
> Any SEL pilot usually thinks he knows it all when transitioning to gliders. If a 15-hour CFIG can't follow the tow plane, then we have a real problem. The FAA was thinking 7 seven hours when they made the rules, then doubled it to make sure, IMHO... And the guys at the field know if the CFIG pilot is an accident waiting to happen. They don't need to look at hours flown. Some come with natural gifts that others don't have. Hours are to get that little piece of paper. The rest is up to the community to police it.
>
> Florida was crazy to give me a learner's permit to drive my Honda 90 on the road!
> And the cops would chase us as we drove our Go-karts and homemade mini bikes on the road.
> We had a big dent in the dryer that was in the garage. Flying into the garage as the garage door slammed down was a frequent occasion. The dent was a testament to too little brakes as we crashed hiding from the law!
>
> I was in an R22 that had a boom strike! Now that is another story! And still alive to tell the tale!
>
> What is the old saying? If you walked away from it, it was a good landing....
>
> I did take a ride with a CFIG once that smelled of alcohol. The best pilot I ever ran into.
>
> Credentials do not always make good instructors. But, I guess its the minimum that gives you status and keeps the insurance current...

Gary, yes, following the tow plane should be very routine for someone with all those ratings and experience, but we see it all the time. I can tell you all kind of stories about the days past in Miami, but as you well know having the fortune of flying with Bennie and Alfonso was such a joy. Long before Alfonso came into the picture Bennie and I were out at Mary's flying almost every day. I was a young guy that had just bought my first sailplane, a Standard Cirrus from a man named Ray Galloway. Bennie took me under his wing and taught me things that I would have never been able to learn without his guidance. That was sometime back in the late 70's and soon Alfonso showed up and things began to really rock. Pablo, AKA Paul Crowell was our daily tow pilot and to give you some idea as to the amount of flying that we were doing a review of my log book shows three flights on three consecutive days averaging 9 hours per day. I guess the point is that of the best glider pilots that I ever encountered was Bennie Flowers. Bennie was a Army Air Corps pilot with extensive glider flight training. I still have visions of the old TG-3 that he converted into a soaring machine.
Bennie Flew for Eastern, and often Andy McQuigg would come down to Thermal Research and fly with Bennie, Alfonso and myself. So when you talk about experience, you certainly know what I am referring to, did we have a blast! Bob

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!
>
> I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter pilot.

Walt you should really try to find more experienced instructor. I believe a helicopter pilot with under 500 hours is still very much a student. If you are near Southern Cal get sometime with Chin Tu at Civic in Carlsbad.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:54:32 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!
> >
> > I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity.. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter pilot.
>
> Walt you should really try to find more experienced instructor. I believe a helicopter pilot with under 500 hours is still very much a student. If you are near Southern Cal get sometime with Chin Tu at Civic in Carlsbad.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:54:32 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!
> >
> > I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity.. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter pilot.
>
> Walt you should really try to find more experienced instructor. I believe a helicopter pilot with under 500 hours is still very much a student. If you are near Southern Cal get sometime with Chin Tu at Civic in Carlsbad.

I already have my PPL helicopter, trying to find out how old the oldest successful candidate for a CPL Helicopter might have been, I'd like to take it at an older age. I believe my examiner thinks I'm the oldest successful PPL Rotorcaft candidate he has examined. Don't ever intend to fly or work again, just find myself with disposable income and what better way to dispose of it than flying.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

[Dan Marotta]

:-D

On 12/14/2019 4:52 PM, wrote:
> just find myself with disposable income and what better way to dispose of it than flying.

--
Dan, 5J

[Gary Wayland]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:54:32 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 12:25:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Learning to fly an R22 from a kid that looks like he was 14 years would get you grey hairs real quick! And then to see his hand cocked from that stick as you thought you were going to DIE at the first hover was a learning experience I'll cherish the rest of my life! I made it!
> >
> > I took one intro flight in an R22, read the documents informing you of the SFAR and the special training requiements and opted for the Guimbal Cabri G2. Got my rating in the Guimbal which has a few quirks of its own. True, the oldest instructor was a middle 20 something and there were instructors there who had never done a sign off for student solo or practical test but that is largely the nature of flight instuction these days. Now going to do some advanced training with a nice young guy, under 300 hours total but he appears to me to have the requisite flying skills and verbal capacity.. Again, it's not all about hours but SKILL, ABILITY especially in the communications phase and the proper personality. Just because you are a world aerobatic champion with far more skill than the average CFIG candidate doesn't mean you can properly train a glider pilot. I'm actually impressed with the youngster with whom I am not doing the whirlybird thing.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter pilot.
>
> Walt you should really try to find more experienced instructor. I believe a helicopter pilot with under 500 hours is still very much a student. If you are near Southern Cal get sometime with Chin Tu at Civic in Carlsbad.

I have three hundred hours in an R44. Just enough to let me ferry a new one out of Robinson factory single seat. They take hours in a helicopter to be a big deal... You better respect Helicopters if you want to live a long happy life! Darn, they are fun! Gliders, too!!!

ASW27b Suzie Q

[Gary Wayland]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:11:42 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > > The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?
> >
> > Any SEL pilot usually thinks he knows it all when transitioning to gliders. If a 15-hour CFIG can't follow the tow plane, then we have a real problem. The FAA was thinking 7 seven hours when they made the rules, then doubled it to make sure, IMHO... And the guys at the field know if the CFIG pilot is an accident waiting to happen. They don't need to look at hours flown.. Some come with natural gifts that others don't have. Hours are to get that little piece of paper. The rest is up to the community to police it.
> >
> > Florida was crazy to give me a learner's permit to drive my Honda 90 on the road!
> > And the cops would chase us as we drove our Go-karts and homemade mini bikes on the road.
> > We had a big dent in the dryer that was in the garage. Flying into the garage as the garage door slammed down was a frequent occasion. The dent was a testament to too little brakes as we crashed hiding from the law!
> >
> > I was in an R22 that had a boom strike! Now that is another story! And still alive to tell the tale!
> >
> > What is the old saying? If you walked away from it, it was a good landing...
> >
> > I did take a ride with a CFIG once that smelled of alcohol. The best pilot I ever ran into.
> >
> > Credentials do not always make good instructors. But, I guess its the minimum that gives you status and keeps the insurance current...
>
> Gary, yes, following the tow plane should be very routine for someone with all those ratings and experience, but we see it all the time. I can tell you all kind of stories about the days past in Miami, but as you well know having the fortune of flying with Bennie and Alfonso was such a joy. Long before Alfonso came into the picture Bennie and I were out at Mary's flying almost every day. I was a young guy that had just bought my first sailplane, a Standard Cirrus from a man named Ray Galloway. Bennie took me under his wing and taught me things that I would have never been able to learn without his guidance. That was sometime back in the late 70's and soon Alfonso showed up and things began to really rock. Pablo, AKA Paul Crowell was our daily tow pilot and to give you some idea as to the amount of flying that we were doing a review of my log book shows three flights on three consecutive days averaging 9 hours per day. I guess the point is that of the best glider pilots that I ever encountered was Bennie Flowers. Bennie was a Army Air Corps pilot with extensive glider flight training. I still have visions of the old TG-3 that he converted into a soaring machine.
> Bennie Flew for Eastern, and often Andy McQuigg would come down to Thermal Research and fly with Bennie, Alfonso and myself. So when you talk about experience, you certainly know what I am referring to, did we have a blast! Bob

Yes, these guys at Miami were the best of the best. The Fonz (E9), Bennie, Bill our 60 thousand hour tow pilot, Jon Fox and all that flew there. My brother was also inspirational in getting into the sport. Thanks, Charlie!

I flew 250 hours in the first year in an libelle chasing Bennie and Al around the patch in their
Ventus C's...

RIP Bennie and Al. We miss you!

I have a piece of yarn Bennie gave me to attach to my 27 winglets. He asked me to watch what the yarn was doing during the flight. He played with making winglets for his Ventus. That piece of yarn will never leave my 27 winglet. Every time I see it, I think Bennie is out on my starboard wing flying with me...

It's a fantastic sport and we are the lucky ones to have experienced it!

[Bob Youngblood]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 9:47:04 PM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:11:42 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > > > The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?
> > >
> > > Any SEL pilot usually thinks he knows it all when transitioning to gliders. If a 15-hour CFIG can't follow the tow plane, then we have a real problem. The FAA was thinking 7 seven hours when they made the rules, then doubled it to make sure, IMHO... And the guys at the field know if the CFIG pilot is an accident waiting to happen. They don't need to look at hours flown. Some come with natural gifts that others don't have. Hours are to get that little piece of paper. The rest is up to the community to police it.
> > >
> > > Florida was crazy to give me a learner's permit to drive my Honda 90 on the road!
> > > And the cops would chase us as we drove our Go-karts and homemade mini bikes on the road.
> > > We had a big dent in the dryer that was in the garage. Flying into the garage as the garage door slammed down was a frequent occasion. The dent was a testament to too little brakes as we crashed hiding from the law!
> > >
> > > I was in an R22 that had a boom strike! Now that is another story! And still alive to tell the tale!
> > >
> > > What is the old saying? If you walked away from it, it was a good landing...
> > >
> > > I did take a ride with a CFIG once that smelled of alcohol. The best pilot I ever ran into.
> > >
> > > Credentials do not always make good instructors. But, I guess its the minimum that gives you status and keeps the insurance current...
> >
> > Gary, yes, following the tow plane should be very routine for someone with all those ratings and experience, but we see it all the time. I can tell you all kind of stories about the days past in Miami, but as you well know having the fortune of flying with Bennie and Alfonso was such a joy. Long before Alfonso came into the picture Bennie and I were out at Mary's flying almost every day. I was a young guy that had just bought my first sailplane, a Standard Cirrus from a man named Ray Galloway. Bennie took me under his wing and taught me things that I would have never been able to learn without his guidance. That was sometime back in the late 70's and soon Alfonso showed up and things began to really rock. Pablo, AKA Paul Crowell was our daily tow pilot and to give you some idea as to the amount of flying that we were doing a review of my log book shows three flights on three consecutive days averaging 9 hours per day. I guess the point is that of the best glider pilots that I ever encountered was Bennie Flowers. Bennie was a Army Air Corps pilot with extensive glider flight training. I still have visions of the old TG-3 that he converted into a soaring machine.
> > Bennie Flew for Eastern, and often Andy McQuigg would come down to Thermal Research and fly with Bennie, Alfonso and myself. So when you talk about experience, you certainly know what I am referring to, did we have a blast! Bob
>
> Yes, these guys at Miami were the best of the best. The Fonz (E9), Bennie, Bill our 60 thousand hour tow pilot, Jon Fox and all that flew there. My brother was also inspirational in getting into the sport. Thanks, Charlie!
>
> I flew 250 hours in the first year in an libelle chasing Bennie and Al around the patch in their
> Ventus C's...
>
> RIP Bennie and Al. We miss you!
>
> I have a piece of yarn Bennie gave me to attach to my 27 winglets. He asked me to watch what the yarn was doing during the flight. He played with making winglets for his Ventus. That piece of yarn will never leave my 27 winglet. Every time I see it, I think Bennie is out on my starboard wing flying with me...
>
> It's a fantastic sport and we are the lucky ones to have experienced it!

Gary, thanks for the memories. Bennie began flying gliders back in his early years and was influenced by a professor named August Raspet, who had been selected to head the MSU Aeronautical Engineering Dept. Raspet was a Cambridge educated engineer with a devotion for sailplane flight. Raspet was instrumental in the conversion project of the TG-3 that Bennie owned. I sure wish I had those pics of Bennie's old TG-3. Raspet also worked with other sailplane pilots including Dick Johnson, who would set a distance record in his RJ5 project that Raspet was heavily involved with its development and testing. Another interesting fact about Raspet was that he was responsible for getting the FAA to change some requirements for glider pilots. I will try and contact Bennie.s daughter and see if she still has a picture of Bennie's old TG-3, guys here would be amazed to see it. Bob

[[email protected]]

what better way to dispose of it than flying.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

R-22s are more dangerous than towing with Elmira Death Hooks. Sure are fun though.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 12:04:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> what better way to dispose of it than flying.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> R-22s are more dangerous than towing with Elmira Death Hooks. Sure are fun though.

The R22 was never meant to be a trainer but it is the most commonly used trainer in the world. WHY? Because ity is cheap. You want a great trainer try the Guimbal Cabri G2. As is the case with everything that leaves the ground you must respect it and understand it.

Walt Connelly

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-5, Gary Wayland wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?
>
> Any SEL pilot usually thinks he knows it all when transitioning to gliders. If a 15-hour CFIG can't follow the tow plane, then we have a real problem. The FAA was thinking 7 seven hours when they made the rules, then doubled it to make sure, IMHO... And the guys at the field know if the CFIG pilot is an accident waiting to happen. They don't need to look at hours flown. Some come with natural gifts that others don't have. Hours are to get that little piece of paper. The rest is up to the community to police it.
>
> Florida was crazy to give me a learner's permit to drive my Honda 90 on the road!
> And the cops would chase us as we drove our Go-karts and homemade mini bikes on the road.
> We had a big dent in the dryer that was in the garage. Flying into the garage as the garage door slammed down was a frequent occasion. The dent was a testament to too little brakes as we crashed hiding from the law!
>
> I was in an R22 that had a boom strike! Now that is another story! And still alive to tell the tale!
>
> What is the old saying? If you walked away from it, it was a good landing....
>
> I did take a ride with a CFIG once that smelled of alcohol. The best pilot I ever ran into.
>
> Credentials do not always make good instructors. But, I guess its the minimum that gives you status and keeps the insurance current...

The potential for a boom stike is one of the reasons for the SFAR on the Robinson. Tolerating a CFIG that smelled of alcohol is not a good move.

As for the Robbie, here is a good read: https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-robinson-helicopters/

Fly the Guimbal Cabri G2. Fine helicopter.

Walt Connelly