Lakeway, TX

[birdman]

Hello,

I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.


"I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
different than the real times."

I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks

[John E. Carty]

The residents around Lakeway have been trying for a long time to get it
closed, they even have purposely placed deer feeders just off the airport
property near both ends of the runway. I used to fly out of their quite
frequently but now avoid the place like the plague :-(


"birdman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
> system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
> Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
> that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
> from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
> that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
>
>
> "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
> according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
> at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
> policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
> told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
> sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
> no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
> all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
> you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
> tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
> in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
> a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
> to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
> the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
> in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
> you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
> and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
> even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
> lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
> and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
> announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> different than the real times."
>
> I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
> up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
> word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
> Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
> as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
> of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
>

[Russ]

When I was on final I heard "Airport closed". The person transmitting
the message didn't identify which airport and I took it for granted
that it couldn't be Lakeway because the sun was still shining so bright
that I couldn't look at it. I glanced at my watch out of habit during
rollout and it was about 2018L. There has to be a citizen of lakeway
that observes the airport and immedialely calls the cops when someone
lands somewhere close to sunset. At any rate thanks for your reply. I
changed my name from birdman to Russ by the way. I'm the same person
that wrote the original message. Thanks


John E. Carty wrote:
> The residents around Lakeway have been trying for a long time to get
it
> closed, they even have purposely placed deer feeders just off the
airport
> property near both ends of the runway. I used to fly out of their
quite
> frequently but now avoid the place like the plague :-(
>
>
> "birdman" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the
court
> > system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at
Lakeway
> > Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> > sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police
officer
> > that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> > via a local television station and see if you could keep other
people
> > from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an
email
> > that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
> >
> >
> > "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30
pm
> > according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched
down
> > at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away
when a
> > policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset.
I
> > told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time
of
> > sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> > witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down
but
> > no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> > people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they
film
> > all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket
but
> > you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even
give
> > tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are
not
> > in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen
to
> > a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> > sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went
out
> > to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking
in
> > the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for
walking
> > in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> > overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices.
If
> > you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown
times
> > and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses
to
> > even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an
AOPA
> > lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> > convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> > should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after
sunset
> > and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service)
to
> > announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> > different than the real times."
> >
> > I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> > this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> > that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I
ended
> > up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> > following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread
the
> > word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the
way,
> > Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated
sunset
> > as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken
out
> > of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
> >

[Slick]

I swear this seems like I've read this before. Did someone just post on
this like two months ago or something. Am I going crazy?
"Russ" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> When I was on final I heard "Airport closed". The person transmitting
> the message didn't identify which airport and I took it for granted
> that it couldn't be Lakeway because the sun was still shining so bright
> that I couldn't look at it. I glanced at my watch out of habit during
> rollout and it was about 2018L. There has to be a citizen of lakeway
> that observes the airport and immedialely calls the cops when someone
> lands somewhere close to sunset. At any rate thanks for your reply. I
> changed my name from birdman to Russ by the way. I'm the same person
> that wrote the original message. Thanks
>
>
> John E. Carty wrote:
> > The residents around Lakeway have been trying for a long time to get
> it
> > closed, they even have purposely placed deer feeders just off the
> airport
> > property near both ends of the runway. I used to fly out of their
> quite
> > frequently but now avoid the place like the plague :-(
> >
> >
> > "birdman" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the
> court
> > > system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at
> Lakeway
> > > Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> > > sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police
> officer
> > > that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> > > via a local television station and see if you could keep other
> people
> > > from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an
> email
> > > that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
> > >
> > >
> > > "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30
> pm
> > > according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched
> down
> > > at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away
> when a
> > > policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset.
> I
> > > told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time
> of
> > > sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> > > witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down
> but
> > > no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> > > people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they
> film
> > > all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket
> but
> > > you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even
> give
> > > tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are
> not
> > > in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen
> to
> > > a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> > > sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went
> out
> > > to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking
> in
> > > the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for
> walking
> > > in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> > > overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices.
> If
> > > you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown
> times
> > > and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses
> to
> > > even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an
> AOPA
> > > lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> > > convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> > > should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after
> sunset
> > > and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service)
> to
> > > announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> > > different than the real times."
> > >
> > > I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> > > this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> > > that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I
> ended
> > > up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> > > following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread
> the
> > > word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the
> way,
> > > Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated
> sunset
> > > as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken
> out
> > > of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
> > >
>



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[Slick]

BTW, there's nothing saying you can't buzz the airport after sunset. Even if
there was a law, they couldn't get your tail number at night.
"Slick" > wrote in message ...
> I swear this seems like I've read this before. Did someone just post on
> this like two months ago or something. Am I going crazy?
> "Russ" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > When I was on final I heard "Airport closed". The person transmitting
> > the message didn't identify which airport and I took it for granted
> > that it couldn't be Lakeway because the sun was still shining so bright
> > that I couldn't look at it. I glanced at my watch out of habit during
> > rollout and it was about 2018L. There has to be a citizen of lakeway
> > that observes the airport and immedialely calls the cops when someone
> > lands somewhere close to sunset. At any rate thanks for your reply. I
> > changed my name from birdman to Russ by the way. I'm the same person
> > that wrote the original message. Thanks
> >
> >
> > John E. Carty wrote:
> > > The residents around Lakeway have been trying for a long time to get
> > it
> > > closed, they even have purposely placed deer feeders just off the
> > airport
> > > property near both ends of the runway. I used to fly out of their
> > quite
> > > frequently but now avoid the place like the plague :-(
> > >
> > >
> > > "birdman" > wrote in message
> > > ups.com...
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the
> > court
> > > > system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at
> > Lakeway
> > > > Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> > > > sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police
> > officer
> > > > that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> > > > via a local television station and see if you could keep other
> > people
> > > > from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an
> > email
> > > > that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30
> > pm
> > > > according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched
> > down
> > > > at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away
> > when a
> > > > policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset.
> > I
> > > > told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time
> > of
> > > > sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> > > > witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down
> > but
> > > > no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> > > > people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they
> > film
> > > > all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket
> > but
> > > > you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even
> > give
> > > > tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are
> > not
> > > > in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen
> > to
> > > > a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> > > > sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went
> > out
> > > > to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking
> > in
> > > > the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for
> > walking
> > > > in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> > > > overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices.
> > If
> > > > you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown
> > times
> > > > and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses
> > to
> > > > even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an
> > AOPA
> > > > lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> > > > convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> > > > should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after
> > sunset
> > > > and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service)
> > to
> > > > announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> > > > different than the real times."
> > > >
> > > > I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> > > > this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> > > > that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I
> > ended
> > > > up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> > > > following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread
> > the
> > > > word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the
> > way,
> > > > Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated
> > sunset
> > > > as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken
> > out
> > > > of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
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[Dave S]

The fact is... its a small town.. its an affluent town... and they dont
really give a rats ass about anyone who doesnt 1) live there and 2) have
lots of money. Your jury trial is going to be made up of Lakeway
residents.. And they charge an outrageous amount for court costs in
order to discourage trials by court/encourage the plea.

As soon as you accept the fact that they REALLY dont WANT outsiders and
you take their business elsewhere, they will be happier, and you will
have less grief in your life.

Your only real recourse would be to get a DOJ or Texas Ranger
investigation into the law enforcement practices in that town..and that
would involve much more than just the airport curfew. Ask around.. if
you want to pick the fight that bad..

Dave

birdman wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
> system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
> Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
> that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
> from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
> that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
>
>
> "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
> according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
> at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
> policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
> told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
> sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
> no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
> all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
> you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
> tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
> in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
> a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
> to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
> the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
> in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
> you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
> and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
> even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
> lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
> and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
> announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> different than the real times."
>
> I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
> up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
> word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
> Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
> as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
> of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
>

[Peter Duniho]

"birdman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
> system in Lakeway TX.

I'm a little confused about what you want us to do about it?

If you truly believe that law enforcement at Lakeway is corrupt, I would
guess that's something you need to take up with the FBI. I would say that
if you cannot get a fair trial in Lakeway, that would amount to corruption.

A $1200 fine for what essentially ought to amount to a traffic infraction
seems pretty unreasonable to me. Surely there's something in the Texas
Constitution about punishments being required to fit the crime. I would
also take issue with the City making this a criminal (misdemeanor) offense,
but seeing as how they've made ALL zoning violations a criminal offense, and
seeing as how I don't actually know how common that is (in other
municipalities around the country), I won't say much more on that.

I honestly don't know anything about how appeals for something like this
work, or if they are even allowed. I would think that for a misdemeanor
offense they would be. If they are, the appeal would eventually make it out
of the Lakeway jurisdiction, to a higher state court. It seems to me that a
good lawyer would be angling for cause for appeal, during the case in
Lakeway, rather than actually expecting to have a chance to win (assuming,
of course, that your claim of a biased court is true).

As far as proving your case goes, I would expect that a record of a
departure time (you didn't happen to depart from a controlled airport, did
you?), along with your legal record of your logged time for the flight,
would be sufficient to prove that you landed before sunset.

Again, I don't know how things are in Texas, but here in the State of
Washington, one benefit (the only benefit?) of a violation being a criminal
offense rather than an infraction is that the standard of proof on the part
of law enforcement is higher. "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is
required, rather than the more lax "preponderance of evidence" (i.e. if it's
even just 51% against you). An officer's statement wouldn't be sufficient
in that case; he'd have to have something in the way of solid,
substantiating documentation.

In other words, the burden of proof is on the law enforcement officer, and
the case ought to follow the traditional "innocent until proven guilty"
paradigm.

As for the definition of sunset, the Lakeway ordinance specifies the
definition of sunset. You can find the definitions for August 2004 to July
2005 here:
http://www.cityoflakeway.com/shared/CityOrdinances/Zoning_Exhibit-B.pdf
Assuming July 2004 was similar to July 2005 :), by their definition sunset
would have been some time between 8:27pm and 8:38 (depending on what day you
were actually cited). It appears that they simply get their data from
www.sunrisesunset.com

From a legal standpoint, it seems to me that the ticket written would
necessarily have to include the time that the officer witnessed you land,
along with whatever reference of sunset the officer is using. Otherwise,
how can they possibly expect to prove, even by a statement of the officer
(law enforcement almost always wins "your word against theirs" arguments in
court), that you landed after sunset? I would expect that a ticket not
including that information ought to be simply dismissed.

All of the above is hindsight. You apparently did not care enough about the
principle to see the case through, nor did AOPA apparently think it was
important enough to offer legal assistance. If everything was truly as
you've explained it, I would think that you'd have a good case. If you had
a good case, I would think that you wouldn't have accepted what amounts to a
plea bargain. That makes me think that there's probably aspects to the case
that you haven't shared with us that undermined your ability to defend
yourself.

I gather from various sources that Austin and its environs just isn't an
aviation-friendly area. Frankly, looking through their city ordinances, it
appears Lakeway in particular isn't very friendly to nearly anything that
could be construed as undesireable in the slightest way. I've seen CCR's
that aren't even close to being that strict.

The truth is that many airports benefit the community, and a community that
fails to appreciate that deserves to lose their airport. They WILL suffer
because of it, even if they don't realize it. Yes, that hurts us as pilots
too some times, but that's just how it goes. It sounds to me as though
there is insufficient support for the airport from the aviation community to
compete with the anti-aviation sentiment there. As pilots, we bemoan the
loss of airports wherever they happen, but frankly it doesn't do our cause
much good if we, the folks who ought to know best the difference between a
really important airport and one that really just isn't worth the trouble,
act like each and every airport is no less precious than any other.

As far as the other post mentioning deer feeders, if that's a documented
state of affairs, I would think that the FAA (if they really cared...again,
this comes down to just how important the airport is really) would apply the
same rules that prevent growing tall trees in the approach path, or siting a
landfill just off the end of the runway and have the deer feeders removed.
A person is not allowed to interfere with the safe passage of aircraft just
because that interference occurs on their own property rather than the
airport. Though, I wonder at just how much a deer feeder at each *end* of
the runway would really affect deer traffic on the runway itself. Not much,
I'd guess.

The funny thing is that the airport only gets 25 operations a day. That's
basically a dead airport already. But for anyone nearby to take offense
just plain dumb. If I recall correctly, an "operation" is a takeoff OR
landing, so on average there's actually only about a dozen takeoffs per day
(landings aren't usually very noisy), or about 1 per hour. Hardly enough
for anyone to get upset about. I've got a neighbor with a dog that barks
WAY more than that, and law enforcement couldn't care less (in spite of it
violating city, county, and state noise regulations). Of course, if the
city could make $1200 a pop citing the owner of the dog, maybe they'd take
the violation more seriously.

Sorry for the long post. There's just so much wrong about the situation,
both with respect to the apparent handling by the city, and with your
approach to your complaint, that I just had to comment on it all (or at
least the highlights).

Pete

[aluckyguess]

If it is true about the Deerfeeders report it to the FAA and the FBI if you
can prove what you said. They would have to arrest them. If say the feeder
is right next to the airport instead of the other end of their property,
they just may end up in jail.
"birdman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
> system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
> Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
> that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
> from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
> that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
>
>
> "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
> according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
> at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
> policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
> told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
> sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
> no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
> all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
> you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
> tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
> in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
> a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
> to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
> the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
> in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
> you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
> and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
> even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
> lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
> and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
> announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> different than the real times."
>
> I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
> up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
> word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
> Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
> as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
> of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
>

[OtisWinslow]

One option .. if you could get anyone interested .. would be a sting
by some national media where by someone lands 15 min before sunset
and the entire event is filmed from an angle that makes the sunset
visible.

Other than that .. I'd go to the FAA, the U.S. Attorney's office and
the Texas Attorney General's office. Sounds like a pattern of
shakedowns to me.


"birdman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
> system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
> Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
> sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
> that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
> via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
> from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
> that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
>
>
> "I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
> according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
> at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
> policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
> told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
> sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
> witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
> no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
> people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
> all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
> you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
> tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
> in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
> a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
> sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
> to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
> the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
> in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
> overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
> you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
> and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
> even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
> lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
> convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
> should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
> and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
> announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
> different than the real times."
>
> I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
> this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
> that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
> up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
> following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
> word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
> Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
> as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
> of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks
>

[Big John]

Birdman

Go to and check out 6.2.6 in link below. Note part about Federal Gvt
which might be an out?

We can hunt before sun rise and after sunset, log flying time before
and after, etc.

Have you checked how much and what for, any Federal Money goes to
Lakeside?

Been a long time since I landed there but do they have any kind of an
approach where you could shoot low aproaches either in the twilight
zone or after dark (say about mid night :o)

What you need is a old BT-13 that shakes the fillings of your teeth.

Of course if you had to make an 'emergency landing' I think the Gvt
would step in and take a part?

Think out of the box. As granddad said, don't get mad, get even :o)

John

http://cityoflakeway.com/tool_pop.asp?toolID=134&openFile=%7Cshared%7CCityOrdinances%7CNOISE_Ordina nce_2004-08-16-2.pdf

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
On 11 Mar 2005 19:55:49 -0800, "birdman" > wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have a complaint and feel that I was taken advantage of by the court
>system in Lakeway TX. It concerns my landing a small plane at Lakeway
>Airport in July, of 2004. I knew that the Airport is closed after
>sunset and before sunrise but I was issued a ticket by a police officer
>that didn't even know what time sunset was. I wanted to pursue it
>via a local television station and see if you could keep other people
>from being taken advantage of. The following excerpt is from an email
>that I sent to an aviation bulletin board.
>
>
>"I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
>according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
>at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
>policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
>told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
>sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
>witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
>no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
>people loosing cases in court. It is a court of record and they film
>all activity so if you loose you not only have to pay the ticket but
>you have to pay court costs that are extremely high. They even give
>tickets to people walking in the park after sunset when signs are not
>in plain sight. It's $200 by the way for that offense. This happen to
>a daughter and son-in-law of a local airport resident that was baby
>sitting their grandchild while their daughter and son-in-law went out
>to eat. They finished dinner early so they decided to go walking in
>the park and was promptly issued a ticket in broad daylight for walking
>in the park after sunset. They have changed the speed limit signs
>overnight and have ticketed the citizens without issuing notices. If
>you land anywhere close to sunset, please have accurate touchdown times
>and a camera to prove your innocence. It takes more than witnesses to
>even get representation for a court hearing. I finally found an AOPA
>lawyer to represent me but after talking to his lawyer friends, he
>convinced me to ask for deferred adjudication which I did. Lakeway
>should abide by FAA regulations of 30 minutes before and after sunset
>and should install an AWOS(Automatic Weather Observation Service) to
>announce the sunset times in Lakeway because they are obviously
>different than the real times."
>
>I have been on probation with Lakeway since July of 2004 and am off
>this month. I didn't want to pursue any action until now for fear
>that they would automatically raise my fine back to the $1200. I ended
>up with 6 months probation and a 750 dollar fine. Please consider
>following up on this injustice. I will do anything to help spread the
>word about the way the community of Lakeway does business. By the way,
>Lakeway had an official sunset link on their website that stated sunset
>as being 2031 and after I was issued the ticket the link was taken out
>of the website. Is it a coverup? Thanks

[Ron McKinnon]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
>
> Go to and check out 6.2.6 in link below. Note part about Federal Gvt
> which might be an out?
>
> >
> http://cityoflakeway.com/tool_pop.asp?toolID=134&openFile=%7Cshared%7CCityOrdinances%7CNOISE_Ordina nce_2004-08-16-2.pdf
>
> `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````
> On 11 Mar 2005 19:55:49 -0800, "birdman" > wrote:
>>
>>"I landed at Lakeway in the middle of July, 2004. Sunset was 8:30 pm
>>according to the newspaper and other official records. I touched down
>>at about 8:20 pm and had the airplane tied down and walking away when a
>>policeman came up and issued me a ticket for landing after sunset. I
>>told him I touched down at 8:20 pm and asked him of the exact time of
>>sunset. He didn't know but issued me a $1200 ticket. I had 3
>>witnesses with sworn affidavits as to the time that I touched down but
>>no lawyers would touch the case because of Lakeway's reputation of
>>people loosing (sic) cases in court.

I (oddly enough) read the noise ordinance provided. I'm wondering why
it is introduced here; It does not seem to be relevant to the discussion:

1. The original poster said nothing about the ticket being for noise
violation. He stated as being for 'landing after sunset' (though there
has been some inference that such rule might be derived from
considerations of noise abatement.)

2. The ordinance has no language relating to sunset, sunrise, daylight or
darkness. The only time-relevant parts are specified in terms of specific
clock times. There is no basis in the ordinance for a violation in
terms of 'after sunset'.

3. While the ordinance directs the Noise Compliance Office to
'consult with airport proprietor to recommend changes in airport
operations to minimize any noise, which the airport owner may
have authority to control in its capacity as proprietor", it also
states that "Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit,
restrict, penalize, enjoin or in any manner regulate the movement
of aircraft, which are in all respects conducted in accordance with
or pursuant to applicable Laws or regulations."

-- while the airport proprietor might, inspired by this ordinance,
elect to close the airport 'after sunset' (if authorized to do so) with
an intent to minimize noise in the spirit of compliance with this
ordinance, such closure would not fall under the authority or
direction of this ordinance, and any violation of such airport policy
or regulation would seem to be a matter pursuant to the authority,
if any, under which such regulation is valid, which would be
unrelated to this ordinance.

4. In any case, a violation of the noise ordinance, except for specific
circumstances of which aircraft operations are not listed,
requires sound that exceeds specified sound levels (between given
hours), "measured for a duration of at least one minute" (Note:
'Measured' and 'at least one minute').

The measurement of such noise is explicitly stated for certain
circumstances (Loudspeakers, radios etc.) in terms of causing
"a noise violation across a residential real property boundary".
It is not clear that this last criterion applies to all circumstances,
but would arguably be a reasonable inference (there's corresponding
language for 'recreational motor vehicles', which *might* be
applicable to some aircraft).

It would require that the occurrence (the 'landing of the aircraft'
produce a measurable noise level in excess of the specified
values (depending on the specific time of day), across such
a residential boundary (arguably). It would seem unlikely
that a landing aircraft would do this.

(An interesting by-the-way - the ordinance also prohibits the
operation of "any motor vehicle or motorcycle not equipped
with a muffler or other sound dissipative device in good working
order, and in constant operation." This would seem to make
electric vehicles illegal.)

[Peter Duniho]

"Ron McKinnon" > wrote in message
news:GKlZd.678765$8l.580657@pd7tw1no...
> I (oddly enough) read the noise ordinance provided. I'm wondering why
> it is introduced here; It does not seem to be relevant to the discussion

Obviously, it was introduced because the person who introduced it doesn't
have a clue regarding the actual issue.

The regulation at issue here is not a noise ordinance, but rather part of
the Lakeway zoning ordinance. Any violation of the zoning ordinance is a
misdemeanor, punishable by up to a $2000 fine. It just happens that part of
the ordinance describes an "aviation district", which is the only place any
aviation is permitted, and where aviation is permitted only between sunrise
and sunset.

As such, none of the rest of your comments are relevant to this discussion
either. Sorry if you wasted a lot of time on them.

Pete

[Jose]

> The regulation at issue here is not a noise ordinance, but rather part of
> the Lakeway zoning ordinance. Any violation of the zoning ordinance is a
> misdemeanor, punishable by up to a $2000 fine. It just happens that part of
> the ordinance describes an "aviation district", which is the only place any
> aviation is permitted, and where aviation is permitted only between sunrise
> and sunset.

Seems to me this would be an illegal usurpation of Federal authority
(over aviation).

Jose
--
Math is a game. The object of the game is to figure out the rules.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
> Seems to me this would be an illegal usurpation of Federal authority (over
> aviation).

Could be. I'm not an expert in that area of law. I will point out that the
way that the regulations are written, it may not be. I generalized when I
described the regulations, and what they actually prohibit is aircraft
taking off or landing outside of the aviation district. You can fly through
the airspace above other areas within Lakeway, of course. After all, you
would have to in order to get to the aviation district.

Given that the regulation basically addresses only those activities that
occur on the ground, I think it's possible that it doesn't represent an
illegal usurpation of Federal authority. After all, there is precedent for
regulations affecting the operation of aircraft being upheld as legal, as
long as those regulations don't step on the FAA's toes.

Also, all that said, there is ample precedent of regulations that probably
ARE illegal usurpations of Federal authority, but which have never been
contested vigorously enough to have them revoked. AOPA in particular spends
a lot of time warning municipalities about potentially illegal rules, but
I'm not aware of many instances where they actually took a municipality to
court over such rules, nor of an individual doing the same.

A rule that is illegal but which is never contested might as well be legal.

Pete

[[email protected]]

Dave S wrote:
>
> As soon as you accept the fact that they REALLY dont WANT outsiders
and
> you take their business elsewhere, they will be happier, and you will

> have less grief in your life.


I've landed and stayed at Lakeway a number of times as a "transient"
and never felt unwelcome there... in fact quite the opposite. They were
more than happy to let me tie down overnight, and waive the tiedown fee
when I bought some fuel, which by the way was very affordable, similar
price as the other popular G.A. fuel stops in the region.

They are very serious about wanting folks to confine takeoff and
landing operations to well after sunrise and well before sunset, and it
is their right to do so. I've run across several pilots who've used the
Lakeway airport that just seem to get really irked about when an
organization who operates a private airport that is published as open
to the public dares to have the audacity to restrict some operations
there. However Lakeway should post the hours of operation to be one
hour after sunrise to one hour before sunset if that's what they really
intend for it to be.

[Peter Duniho]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Ok... I am a firm believer in private property and courtesy...
>
> However.. if this is a PRIVATE field then the city cops have no business
> enforcing what amounts to "traffic laws" on this PRIVATE PROPERTY. You
> cant get a speeding ticket for ignoring a stop sign on a private road or
> in a private parking lot...because city traffic rules dont apply there.

Minor nit: if the private property owner asks for traffic laws to be
enforced, they may be. For example, at a local business campus, some roads
are private. But speed and stop sign enforcement has been done in the past,
on request to the local law enforcement.

More relevant to this particular discussion, note that the laws are actually
part of the zoning regulations, and violations are criminal offenses, not
infractions (as one might expect). There is plenty of precedence for such
laws being enforced on private property.

> But, semantics aside.. this is a small affluent town, with a small
> affluent town mentality, that stacks the deck against the out of towner
> who cuts it close. I think it would be WONDERFUL if they put in an ASOS of
> some kind and tied an "airport closed" message to a photo cell...

I certainly agree that the necessary information needs to be made available
to the pilot. Your idea of an ASOS with a notice as to whether the airport
is open or closed is an excellent one. But, my bet is that most
"violations" occur either just before or just after sunset, and inasmuch as
the arrests are probably a decent money maker for the city, there's probably
not much support for spending public money for the benefit of the private
airport.

I also think that given the criminal nature of the offense, an arrest needs
to be accompanied by more than just the officer's statement. Real proof of
violation needs to be provided. Finally, I think it's absurd that a
violation of even a half hour could be considered legitimate, given the
likely true nature of the regulation (noise abatement). Aeronautical safety
must be given highest precedence, and an allowance for the sometimes
variable nature of flight times must be made.

As I mentioned before, I suspect anyone who cared enough could actually take
a violation through the court system and come out on top. But you need
someone willing to pursue it that far, without any guarantee of winning.

Pete