Tesla Model 3 and a glider

[bertvaneyken]

Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

[2G]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

I found this youtube video of a towing test with a model X. The results were not impressive. They were towing a horse trailer (4,500 lb), not a glider trailer. Power consumption jumped 3.8x at 70 mph, lower at 55 mph (about 2..7x). This was on flat ground at high altitude (less air resistance). My guess is that you will be around 2x with a glider trailer. Better plan your trip carefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhX3BmhJXc8

Tom

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg

[2G]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 8:54:15 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> > Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> >
> > Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg

How stupid is that?

[PAGA (XA^686)]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 4:19:35 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

Haters will hate... that ain't stupid at all, quite the opposite, it can be a memorable trip.

I have towed my gliders around the US with a Model S, best trips were with the 1-26 which has an open trailer and thus causes quite a lot of drag, and it can get shaky when passing behind a semi-truck (wake turbulence LOL). Electric cars are subjected to the same laws of physics, drag is proportional to the square of speed and thus you need to charge more often, so you may need to drive a bit slower to make it to your destination, given the amount of energy in the car... sounds familiar Mr MacCread? You have to fine tune your Speed to Ride, yes. Same difference as with a ICE towing vehicle, except you want to charge in properly designated areas with high amp plugs.

The beauty of your Tesla is that it tells you from inside the car where are all the chargers (high amp plugs really) and how much juice you are using at the speed you're driving, so it's easier to plan than to fly cross country on weak thermal over a dense forest in the north east. And the best part: while towing, your autopilot still works just fine, so your hands are free to make a nice espresso for example (using a handpresso?).

So yes you can tow a glider with your Tesla, enjoy!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WAPiksxqyxGn3etcA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/81gyd9afDUatkCwbA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YfhfAwZkgAGGSVXD7

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 9:19:35 PM UTC, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

Towing capacity is 910kg (legally, not practically). Hope it's a light glider.

[[email protected]]

I tow my 1-26 with a 3/4 ton ford pickup and we still take a pretty good shaking when around the semi’s.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/13/2019 7:49 PM:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>
>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>
> I found this youtube video of a towing test with a model X. The results were not impressive. They were towing a horse trailer (4,500 lb), not a glider trailer. Power consumption jumped 3.8x at 70 mph, lower at 55 mph (about 2..7x). This was on flat ground at high altitude (less air resistance). My guess is that you will be around 2x with a glider trailer. Better plan your trip carefully.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhX3BmhJXc8

My Dodge Caravan got about 27 mpg when not towing, about 20 mpg when towing a 1700
pound glider trailer. A Model 3 is slightly heavier, a modern trailer is lower
drag, so I would expect a Model 3 range to drop no more than it did on my Caravan;
ie, a power consumption increase of 35%, not 100%. My measurements on two other
vehicles I used to tow glider trailers indicated the change in mileage was
proportional to the weight change. For a 4000 pound vehicle towing a 1700 trailer,
that would be about a 40% increase in power consumption.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

If I was just towing within civilized areas an elect vehicle might be ok. I know Marion Cruze used to tow his 1-26 all across the country with a vw beetle without problems. But if I am operating out in the wilds of say UT/NM/NV, I dont think I would depend on something small and/or electric.

[Dan Marotta]

Wow!Â* Terrific!!!Â* A whole quarter of a mile.Â* Let's fill 'em both up
and send them out across Kansas...

On 12/13/2019 9:54 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>
>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg

--
Dan, 5J

[PAGA (XA^686)]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:48:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Wow!Â* Terrific!!!Â* A whole quarter of a mile.Â* Let's fill 'em both up
> and send them out across Kansas...
>
> On 12/13/2019 9:54 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> >> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> >>
> >> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I am coming to Kansas Dan, with the Model S towing 686 :-)

[Dan Marotta]

That's great, PAGA.Â* Don't take my comments to bad mouth Tesla.Â* I think
it's terrific what they've done to advance the state of the art (not to
mention their rockets).Â* My point was that a drag race is a seconds long
event in the life time of a car.Â* I've driven one or two and the
acceleration is truly astounding, but the charging stations are not very
convenient in New Mexico.Â* Have fun in KS and make a detour to Moriarty
if you have the time.

D

On 12/14/2019 9:55 AM, PAGA (XA^686) wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:48:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Wow!Â* Terrific!!!Â* A whole quarter of a mile.Â* Let's fill 'em both up
>> and send them out across Kansas...
>>
>> On 12/13/2019 9:54 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
>>>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>>>
>>>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> I am coming to Kansas Dan, with the Model S towing 686 :-)

--
Dan, 5J

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 4:19:35 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

I have been towing my 15m Cobra metal top trailer (13.5m Silent 2 Electro) back and forth between WI and FL for the last three years using a Telsa Model X 100D. When not towing, I plan for 3 kWhr/mile. When towing the glider trailer, I plan for 2 kWhr/mile. It is usually less than 2 kWhr, but I like to be conservative.
So with the 100 kWhr battery, and planning to arrive at the next charging location with a 20% charge reserve, I need to find a charger every 160 miles or so. Tesla's supercharger network lines nearly every Interstate highway in the U.S. with average distances between charging locations averaging closer to 80-100 miles. Lots of hotels also offer Tesla destination charger services that will easily and adequately charge a vehicle overnight. For reference, the Model X has a 5000 lb towing capacity. My glider/trailer weighed in at less than 1500 lb.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Scott Manley wrote on 12/14/2019 10:44 AM:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 4:19:35 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>
>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>
> I have been towing my 15m Cobra metal top trailer (13.5m Silent 2 Electro) back and forth between WI and FL for the last three years using a Telsa Model X 100D. When not towing, I plan for 3 kWhr/mile. When towing the glider trailer, I plan for 2 kWhr/mile. It is usually less than 2 kWhr, but I like to be conservative.
> So with the 100 kWhr battery, and planning to arrive at the next charging location with a 20% charge reserve, I need to find a charger every 160 miles or so. Tesla's supercharger network lines nearly every Interstate highway in the U.S. with average distances between charging locations averaging closer to 80-100 miles. Lots of hotels also offer Tesla destination charger services that will easily and adequately charge a vehicle overnight. For reference, the Model X has a 5000 lb towing capacity. My glider/trailer weighed in at less than 1500 lb.
>
Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3
kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like the
trailer improves your mileage.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean
> "3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds
> like the trailer improves your mileage.

More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused
here.

If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per
mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed
50 miles.

This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we
assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the
distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple
calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).
In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no
sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally
empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most
likely be rather less than 37kW.

I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a
hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this
is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other
information about towing with these vehicles.

I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to
60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally
guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for
coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be
matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs
would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity
appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Patrick McMahon]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 2:19:35 PM UTC-7, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

I understand the practical implication of long-distance trailering is that typical charging spots are pull-in, not pull-through. This likely means that you need to disconnect the trailer to charge.

I went back and forth from Alberta to Ontario through the US to retrieve a glider in November. This was the first trip in the last 5 years I couldn't have done with a Tesla. Because of 1) pull-in charging, 2) Montanna.

Watching for a trailer kit on a Model Y for my next vehicle. Buy $TSLA!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Patrick McMahon wrote on 12/14/2019 2:46 PM:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 2:19:35 PM UTC-7, bertvaneyken wrote:
>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>
>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>
> I understand the practical implication of long-distance trailering is that typical charging spots are pull-in, not pull-through. This likely means that you need to disconnect the trailer to charge.
>
> I went back and forth from Alberta to Ontario through the US to retrieve a glider in November. This was the first trip in the last 5 years I couldn't have done with a Tesla. Because of 1) pull-in charging, 2) Montanna.
>
> Watching for a trailer kit on a Model Y for my next vehicle. Buy $TSLA!

Charging stations are being installed in "many" Walmart parking lots, situated
away from the store where cars rarely park. The ones I've seen have plenty of room
to pull-in, charge, back out, and off you go. Other big box stores are probably
not far behind.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean
> > "3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds
> > like the trailer improves your mileage.
>
> More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused
> here.
>
> If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per
> mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed
> 50 miles.
>
> This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we
> assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the
> distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple
> calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW)..
> In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no
> sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally
> empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most
> likely be rather less than 37kW.
>
> I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a
> hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this
> is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other
> information about towing with these vehicles.
>
> I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
> with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to
> 60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally
> guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for
> coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be
> matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs
> would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity
> appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing. The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi.

I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X):
edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html

This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors:

* heat (degrades range)
* elevation (degrades range going uphill)
* wind (headwinds degrade range)
* uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are back-in)
* tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range

His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph.

At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing. And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind.

The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some locations), but would you want to?

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:54:36 -0800, 2G wrote:

> The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
> locations), but would you want to?
>
Very interesting: thanks.

I'd wondered if hill-climbing impacted range, so that's clarified, but it
does raise another point: I thought that the extra energy needed to climb
a hill would be mitigated by regenerative braking on down-hill stretches,
but evidently not.

I also hadn't factored in the costs of running aircon, but over here we
do have cooler summers than almost all of your side of the pond has.

I suppose the an electric gets bitten in winter too, in the sense that an
IC car gets heating for free, while an electric needs to suck on the
battery to keep the cabin warm.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:54:36 -0800, 2G wrote:
>
> > The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
> > locations), but would you want to?
> >
> Very interesting: thanks.
>
> I'd wondered if hill-climbing impacted range, so that's clarified, but it
> does raise another point: I thought that the extra energy needed to climb
> a hill would be mitigated by regenerative braking on down-hill stretches,
> but evidently not.
>
> I also hadn't factored in the costs of running aircon, but over here we
> do have cooler summers than almost all of your side of the pond has.
>
> I suppose the an electric gets bitten in winter too, in the sense that an
> IC car gets heating for free, while an electric needs to suck on the
> battery to keep the cabin warm.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Climbing hills is only recovered if you also descend those same hills. In the western US, we call it the "high desert" for a reason:it IS HIGH! So, I am going from sea level to 6,000 ft.

Having cooler temps is a double-edged sword: you also have poorer soaring conditions. The high desert is also HOT!

For me, the show-stopper is the incredibly SLOW average trip speed - I want to spend my time flying, not travelling.

IC cars aren't heated for free: the engine must be brought up to operating temp regardless of the outside temp. Mileage drops during the winter even while you are getting for pounds of fuel per gallon.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 4:34:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Charging stations are being installed in "many" Walmart parking lots, situated
> away from the store where cars rarely park. The ones I've seen have plenty of room
> to pull-in, charge, back out, and off you go. Other big box stores are probably
> not far behind.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

A minor point of data: In NZ last month at Omarama, I saw something odd in the field across the highway from the gliderport. I pulled-in to check it out and there was the Tesla charging station.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b2nmt2r4ljdrpga/2019-11-28%2009.36.55.jpg?dl=0
I'm not sure I'd rent a Tesla to wander around the South Island, but if you're there to fly or just passing through, you can charge while you fly.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3
>>> kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like
>>> the trailer improves your mileage.
>>
>> More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here.
>>
>> If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile,
>> apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50
>> miles.
>>
>> This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it
>> is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and
>> will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during
>> that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the
>> travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan
>> to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the
>> averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW.
>>
>> I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid,
>> and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm
>> interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about
>> towing with these vehicles.
>>
>> I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
>> with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by
>> both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate
>> travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and
>> pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an
>> equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be
>> interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more
>> expensive than petrol.
>>
>>
>> -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing.
> The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi.
>
> I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X):
> edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html
>
> This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the
> weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be
> significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much
> worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the
> 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be
> 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors:
>
> * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind
> (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are
> back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range
>
> His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the
> entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to
> uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider
> trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the
> trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have
> reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph.
>
> At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next
> charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between
> charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was
> unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing.
> And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind.
>
> The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
> locations), but would you want to?

What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than
accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and
grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider
trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow.

Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds
report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles,
and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back
into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 9:18:50 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM:
> > On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3
> >>> kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like
> >>> the trailer improves your mileage.
> >>
> >> More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here.
> >>
> >> If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile,
> >> apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50
> >> miles.
> >>
> >> This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it
> >> is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and
> >> will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during
> >> that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the
> >> travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan
> >> to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the
> >> averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW.
> >>
> >> I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid,
> >> and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm
> >> interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about
> >> towing with these vehicles.
> >>
> >> I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
> >> with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by
> >> both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate
> >> travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and
> >> pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an
> >> equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be
> >> interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more
> >> expensive than petrol.
> >>
> >>
> >> -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing.
> > The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi.
> >
> > I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X):
> > edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html
> >
> > This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the
> > weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be
> > significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much
> > worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the
> > 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be
> > 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors:
> >
> > * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind
> > (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are
> > back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range
> >
> > His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the
> > entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to
> > uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider
> > trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the
> > trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have
> > reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph.
> >
> > At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next
> > charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between
> > charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was
> > unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing.
> > And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind.
> >
> > The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
> > locations), but would you want to?
>
> What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than
> accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and
> grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider
> trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow.
>
> Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds
> report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles,
> and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back
> into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Scott didn't provide any actual trip data like was provided in the Edmundon's report. At best, it was a recollection. The trailer in the Edmundon's report was more aerodynamic than a glider trailer, being an airfoil section. It was also lighter and had less wetted area. It was also significantly lighter, so I think a glider would be worse than this, and certainly not better by any significant margin. There is no question that if you try to tow with an electric your achieved cross-country speed is going to be abysmally slow. That is just a fact of the slow charging rate, even using superchargers.

He had no problem towing the trailer, which is no surprise as it is lighter and shorter than a glider trailer and well within the Tesla's towing capacity.

Tom

[Patrick McMahon]

The laws of physics and impact to fuel economy do not change for ICE vs. EV on the implication of cooling, hill climbing, headwind or speed, while they are better for EV at altitude and braking.

The Tesla is a great option, would be some considerations for really long-distance relocations, but otherwise wholly adequate, and dramatically better as a vehicle overall. I envy the opportunity to consider it, the towing option for the Model 3 is not an available feature at this time in Canada.

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:42:13 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 9:18:50 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > 2G wrote on 12/14/2019 5:54 PM:
> > > On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3
> > >>> kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like
> > >>> the trailer improves your mileage.
> > >>
> > >> More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused here.
> > >>
> > >> If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per mile,
> > >> apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed 50
> > >> miles.
> > >>
> > >> This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we assume it
> > >> is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the distance and
> > >> will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple calculation, during
> > >> that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).. In real traffic the
> > >> travel time is likely to be more than that and no sensible driver will plan
> > >> to arrive at the next charger with a totally empty battery. Consequently the
> > >> averaged power consumption will most likely be rather less than 37kW..
> > >>
> > >> I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a hybrid,
> > >> and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this is why I'm
> > >> interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other information about
> > >> towing with these vehicles.
> > >>
> > >> I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
> > >> with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to 60mph by
> > >> both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally guestimate
> > >> travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for coffee breaks and
> > >> pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be matched with an
> > >> equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs would also be
> > >> interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity appears to be 15% more
> > >> expensive than petrol.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > >
> > > I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing.
> > > The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi.
> > >
> > > I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X):
> > > edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html
> > >
> > > This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the
> > > weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be
> > > significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much
> > > worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the
> > > 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be
> > > 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors:
> > >
> > > * heat (degrades range) * elevation (degrades range going uphill) * wind
> > > (headwinds degrade range) * uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are
> > > back-in) * tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range
> > >
> > > His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the
> > > entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to
> > > uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider
> > > trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the
> > > trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have
> > > reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph.
> > >
> > > At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next
> > > charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between
> > > charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was
> > > unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing.
> > > And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind.
> > >
> > > The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
> > > locations), but would you want to?
> >
> > What's missing from his report is how much the trailer affected things, other than
> > accessing the charger. The other issues were not trailer related (heat and
> > grades). Also, while the trailer is lighter, it is taller and wider than a glider
> > trailer, so I think a 15m glider trailer would actually be easier to tow.
> >
> > Scott's experience may reflect the effect of a glider trailer better than Edmunds
> > report. Still, heat and cold affect an electric vehicle more than ICE vehicles,
> > and charging is going to be a problem with a trailer as long as you have to back
> > into places. Better get an electric car with a front charge port!
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> Scott didn't provide any actual trip data like was provided in the Edmundon's report. At best, it was a recollection. The trailer in the Edmundon's report was more aerodynamic than a glider trailer, being an airfoil section.. It was also lighter and had less wetted area. It was also significantly lighter, so I think a glider would be worse than this, and certainly not better by any significant margin. There is no question that if you try to tow with an electric your achieved cross-country speed is going to be abysmally slow. That is just a fact of the slow charging rate, even using superchargers.
>
> He had no problem towing the trailer, which is no surprise as it is lighter and shorter than a glider trailer and well within the Tesla's towing capacity.
>
> Tom

The issue of heat was the first that I had heard of it. This discusses it further:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex

"Extreme heat is also a drag on electric vehicles. When outside temperatures heat up to 95 degrees Fahrenheit and air conditioning is used inside the vehicle, driving ranges can decrease by 17 percent, AAA reports. Extreme temperatures certainly play a role in diminishing driving range, but the use of the vehicle’s heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system in these conditions — particularly the heat — has by far the greatest effect."

As I understood the Edmund's article, high temperature degraded range by more than just using the AC. Apparently the conversion electronics and/or battery are not as efficient at higher temperatures. The trailer affects it because more energy is required to pull it, and the car's battery must use even more of its capacity to supply it. When towing with ICE you don't even notice these efficiency losses, as you have more than adequate fuel supply. This is not the case with electrics, where you are running on the ragged edge of capacity. So much so that the Edmundon's reporter had to shut off the AC in 100 F weather. The only comparable situation I have run into towing is using marginal tow vehicles (a minivan) going over high desert mountain passes. I have had to use the heater to increase the cooling capacity of the engine to prevent over-heating. I replaced the minivan with a SUV.

The bottom line is that towing with an electric car raises a lot of issues that should be understood BEFORE hitting the road.

Tom

[swinkelj]

Op vrijdag 13 december 2019 22:19:35 UTC+1 schreef bertvaneyken:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/rijden-met-aanhanger-met-de-tesla-model-3.157907/page-4

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 18:47:47 -0800, 2G wrote:

> IC cars aren't heated for free: the engine must be brought up to
> operating temp regardless of the outside temp. Mileage drops during the
> winter even while you are getting for pounds of fuel per gallon.
>
True, but that's also the case in summer - at least over here. Similarly,
my car is pretty much up to temperature by the time I've driven it across
town (under 3 miles - the gliding club is 43 miles away). The only time
its running while stationary at the start of a trip is for the 10 minutes
or so when I need to scrape frost off the windows and the electric
windscreen will be on then as well.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 01:52:45 -0800, swinkelj wrote:

> Op vrijdag 13 december 2019 22:19:35 UTC+1 schreef bertvaneyken:
>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>
>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European)
>> gliding holiday.
>
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/rijden-met-aanhanger-met-de-
tesla-model-3.157907/page-4

Ah Ha - 0.225 kWh/km ! That clarifies things a lot.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Still hard to beat the energy density of gasoline. Batteries just don't come close, and when they are "empty," you are still hauling the weight around. I'll stick with my F-150 at 18 mpg and 400+ mile range. At 75 mph.

[[email protected]]

Me too I will stick with my F250 diesel 4x4, gets around 17pmg hauling , has near 500 mile range and when, not if, I land out in the toolies, she can get to me and haul me out.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:54:54 -0800, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> Me too I will stick with my F250 diesel 4x4, gets around 17pmg hauling ,
> has near 500 mile range and when, not if, I land out in the toolies, she
> can get to me and haul me out.

I still sometimes miss the Series 2 long wheelbase 2.4l petrol Landrover
I had in the '70s. Fitted with full length roof rack, better seats and an
extra 10 gallon tank for longer range, it took four of us and a load of
camping gear from the UK to India and back, with basically only tyre
problems and a clutch change, though it did eat three speedometer heads
along the way.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

My bad. I did mean 3 miles per kWhr when not towing, and 2 miles per kWhr when towing the glider trailer. Other considerations mentioned. Wind is a factor: headwinds hurt, tailwinds help, but I checked winds before I made a trip and factored it in when charging. I was usually running the A/C while towing. I didn't notice any effect on range, although logically there is some effect. I was not traveling in 100 degree heat, but 90s were not uncommon. I did have to unhook the trailer about 1/2 the time at charging stations. We tend to spread out total trip time over more days (luxury of being retired), so a few extra minutes at a stop to unhook/rehook the trailer was not an issue. Traveling mostly north/south through the eastern U.S. I didn't have to deal with a lot of terrain. By the way, the Tesla navigation system does factor in elevation changes when calculating the energy required for a proposed route. The most dramatic elevation change in a short period of time was a 1000 ft ridge in Tennessee. The climb occurred over about 7 miles and the energy consumption on the way up went off the chart. On the flats, while towing, the Model X uses about 400-450 watt-hrs/mile. Climbing the ridge saw values well over 900 watt-hrs / mile. To minimize consumption on the way up, I got in line with the semis and drove at 35 mph (minimized aerodynamic drag). On the 7 mile trip down the other side, the regenerative braking (no need to use the actual brakes) returns more than 1/2 of what was required to climb the ridge (descent at about 55 mph). Another point of reference, for safety sake, we came to traveling in the right lane with the professional truck drivers, moving along at about 5 miles under the posted limit at a steady pace, so about 65 mph most of the time. Besides being safer, right lane travel was much more relaxing and often entertaining as we calmly watched the neurotic behavior of those to our left. Tesla's adaptive cruise uses the maximum distance to the vehicle ahead setting when in trailer mode. Tesla's automatic lane tracking (auto-steer) is disabled in trailer mode.

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:42:37 AM UTC-8, Scott Manley wrote:
> My bad. I did mean 3 miles per kWhr when not towing, and 2 miles per kWhr when towing the glider trailer. Other considerations mentioned. Wind is a factor: headwinds hurt, tailwinds help, but I checked winds before I made a trip and factored it in when charging. I was usually running the A/C while towing. I didn't notice any effect on range, although logically there is some effect. I was not traveling in 100 degree heat, but 90s were not uncommon. I did have to unhook the trailer about 1/2 the time at charging stations. We tend to spread out total trip time over more days (luxury of being retired), so a few extra minutes at a stop to unhook/rehook the trailer was not an issue. Traveling mostly north/south through the eastern U.S. I didn't have to deal with a lot of terrain. By the way, the Tesla navigation system does factor in elevation changes when calculating the energy required for a proposed route. The most dramatic elevation change in a short period of time was a 1000 ft ridge in Tennessee. The climb occurred over about 7 miles and the energy consumption on the way up went off the chart. On the flats, while towing, the Model X uses about 400-450 watt-hrs/mile. Climbing the ridge saw values well over 900 watt-hrs / mile. To minimize consumption on the way up, I got in line with the semis and drove at 35 mph (minimized aerodynamic drag). On the 7 mile trip down the other side, the regenerative braking (no need to use the actual brakes) returns more than 1/2 of what was required to climb the ridge (descent at about 55 mph). Another point of reference, for safety sake, we came to traveling in the right lane with the professional truck drivers, moving along at about 5 miles under the posted limit at a steady pace, so about 65 mph most of the time. Besides being safer, right lane travel was much more relaxing and often entertaining as we calmly watched the neurotic behavior of those to our left. Tesla's adaptive cruise uses the maximum distance to the vehicle ahead setting when in trailer mode. Tesla's automatic lane tracking (auto-steer) is disabled in trailer mode.

It's interesting how much different the power consumption is, 23%, between the glider and the travel trailers, which must be due to the larger frontal area. Correcting for a correspondingly shorter charging time, the cross country trip speed will jump to an eye-popping 27.6 mph. Ely, NV, however, would be out of the question.

Tom

[Mike N.]

This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.

I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.

I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward.

However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F

I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity.

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
>
> I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
>
> I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward.
>
> However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F
>
> I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity.

Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.

Tom


Tom

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 4:36:02 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> > This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
> >
> > I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
> >
> > I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward.
> >
> > However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F
> >
> > I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity.
>
> Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
>
> Tom

Tom hasn't been to a Toyota dealer lately.

T8

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 2:16:45 PM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 4:36:02 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> > > This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
> > >
> > > I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
> > >
> > > I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward.
> > >
> > > However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F
> > >
> > > I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity.
> >
> > Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom hasn't been to a Toyota dealer lately.
>
> T8

So it seems. Take a look at the RAV4 (available in both gas only and hybrid):

Gas only:
$25,850
28/35 mpg (city/highway)

Hybrid:
$28,100
35/38 mpg (city/highway)

Cost difference: $2,250
Fuel savings (National average 8,500 mi/yr @ $2.65/gal): $255/$51 per year
Years to recoup cost: 9/44 years

Few of us keep cars for 9 years (I do), but virtually none of us keep them 44 years. And that doesn't factor in the higher maintenance costs of the hybrid. If you do, I am sure you will lose money on the hybrid. This is why people stopped buying hybrids - you need much higher fuel costs to justify it.

[Dan Marotta]

Regenerative braking does work but, like other things in life, there's
no free lunch.Â* There are losses (heat, friction, induction, hysteresis)
in any system, electrical or mechanical, so you don't recoup all you
spent going up hill by going down hill.



On 12/14/2019 7:09 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:54:36 -0800, 2G wrote:
>
>> The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
>> locations), but would you want to?
>>
> Very interesting: thanks.
>
> I'd wondered if hill-climbing impacted range, so that's clarified, but it
> does raise another point: I thought that the extra energy needed to climb
> a hill would be mitigated by regenerative braking on down-hill stretches,
> but evidently not.
>
> I also hadn't factored in the costs of running aircon, but over here we
> do have cooler summers than almost all of your side of the pond has.
>
> I suppose the an electric gets bitten in winter too, in the sense that an
> IC car gets heating for free, while an electric needs to suck on the
> battery to keep the cabin warm.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:54:44 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Regenerative braking does work but, like other things in life, there's
> no free lunch.Â* There are losses (heat, friction, induction, hysteresis)
> in any system, electrical or mechanical, so you don't recoup all you
> spent going up hill by going down hill.
>
Yes,I understand that (Chemistry degree, so allegedly I have/had a decent
grasp on basic physics). So, I understand that you don't get back all the
energy spent in getting higher when you come down again.

What I don't understand is what proportion of that energy you get back,
given the current state of automotive engineering. This is why I'm asking
questions about it.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Ah...Â* Someone previously mentioned getting about 50% back going down a
hill from what he used going up.Â* I'm sure that's variable, too.

I think these electric cars are terrific and, for a lot of folks, work
out great.Â* But, for me and others who live out in the wilderness, they
just can't /_yet_/ compete with gasoline or diesel over the spectrum of
use.Â* There will come a day, however, when the state of the art will
announce the demise of internal combustion engines.Â* I hope I'm around
to see it.

On 12/15/2019 4:26 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:54:44 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> Regenerative braking does work but, like other things in life, there's
>> no free lunch.Â* There are losses (heat, friction, induction, hysteresis)
>> in any system, electrical or mechanical, so you don't recoup all you
>> spent going up hill by going down hill.
>>
> Yes,I understand that (Chemistry degree, so allegedly I have/had a decent
> grasp on basic physics). So, I understand that you don't get back all the
> energy spent in getting higher when you come down again.
>
> What I don't understand is what proportion of that energy you get back,
> given the current state of automotive engineering. This is why I'm asking
> questions about it.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 3:37:34 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Ah...Â* Someone previously mentioned getting about 50% back going
> down a hill from what he used going up.Â* I'm sure that's variable,
> too.
>
>
>
> I think these electric cars are terrific and, for a lot of folks,
> work out great.Â* But, for me and others who live out in the
> wilderness, they just can't yet compete with gasoline
> or diesel over the spectrum of use.Â* There will come a day, however,
> when the state of the art will announce the demise of internal
> combustion engines.Â* I hope I'm around to see it.
>
>
>
>
> On 12/15/2019 4:26 PM, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:54:44 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>
> Regenerative braking does work but, like other things in life, there's
> no free lunch.Â* There are losses (heat, friction, induction, hysteresis)
> in any system, electrical or mechanical, so you don't recoup all you
> spent going up hill by going down hill.
>
>
>
> Yes,I understand that (Chemistry degree, so allegedly I have/had a decent
> grasp on basic physics). So, I understand that you don't get back all the
> energy spent in getting higher when you come down again.
>
> What I don't understand is what proportion of that energy you get back,
> given the current state of automotive engineering. This is why I'm asking
> questions about it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

I think that is close enough for our purposes. By way of comparison, it takes 20% more energy to recharge my glider battery than it delivered. This includes battery and dc-dc charger inefficiencies.

Tom

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM:
> > On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
> >> This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the limiting factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
> >>
> >> I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring electric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not to mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
> >>
> >> I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great things to push the technology forward.
> >>
> >> However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early adopter of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles made in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of transportation. F
> >>
> >> I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to maturity.
> >
> > Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
> >
>
> You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd add a small
> engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway speed, and
> reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles. It's then a
> plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different from a
> typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are still
> relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on gas, 28
> mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For most owners,
> most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily exceed 150 mpg.
>
> But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to tow a
> glider trailer. Let's get back to that.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That configuration doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer, however.

There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly slow overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well, you could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas.

Tom

[Alan Garside]

You can always put a generator in the trailer to keep the car charged up,
but make sure its a three phase generator.

At 02:43 16 December 2019, 2G wrote:
>On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM:
>> > On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
>> >> This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the
limiting
>=
>factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
>> >>
>> >> I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring
>el=
>ectric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not
to
>=
>mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
>> >>
>> >> I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great
things
>=
>to push the technology forward.
>> >>
>> >> However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early
adopter
>=
>of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles
>ma=
>de in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of
>t=
>ransportation. F
>> >>
>> >> I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to
>m=
>aturity.
>> >=20
>> > Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and
>ab=
>andoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental
>be=
>nefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about
>twice=
> what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that
would
>=
>bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
>> >=20
>>=20
>> You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd
add
>=
>a small=20
>> engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway
>spee=
>d, and=20
>> reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles.
It's
>=
>then a=20
>> plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different
>from=
> a=20
>> typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are
>stil=
>l=20
>> relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on
>g=
>as, 28=20
>> mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For
>most=
> owners,=20
>> most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily
>exceed=
> 150 mpg.
>>=20
>> But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to
>to=
>w a=20
>> glider trailer. Let's get back to that.
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>email=
> me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-th=
>e-guide-1
>
>You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That
>configuration=
> doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer,
>h=
>owever.
>
>There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly
>s=
>low overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well,
>you=
> could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas.
>
>Tom
>

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:43:11 -0800, 2G wrote:

> I think that is close enough for our purposes. By way of comparison, it
> takes 20% more energy to recharge my glider battery than it delivered.
> This includes battery and dc-dc charger inefficiencies.
>
Thanks, guys. Most helpful, especially the charging losses.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Yeah!Â* And have an extension cord between the trailer and the car and
keep the generator running in the trailer so that you don't have to stop
until you need to pee, which you could mitigate by drilling a hole in
the floor to run your relief system outside.Â* Oh, and bring a bunch of
water along to clean up the glider of generator exhaust, or to put out
the fire in the trailer. :-D

Winter is less than a week away...


On 12/16/2019 2:26 AM, Alan Garside wrote:
> You can always put a generator in the trailer to keep the car charged up,
> but make sure its a three phase generator.
>
> At 02:43 16 December 2019, 2G wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 5:01:56 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>> 2G wrote on 12/15/2019 1:35 PM:
>>>> On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-8, Mike N. wrote:
>>>>> This is the critical point. Energy density, it is really the
> limiting
>> =
>> factor of electric versus fossil fueled vehicles.
>>>>> I'm really looking forward to new battery technology that can bring
>> el=
>> ectric storage to be even relatively close to that of fossil fuels. Not
> to
>> =
>> mention the battery deterioration, disposal, and replacement aspects.
>>>>> I like leading edge technologies. I think Tesla has done great
> things
>> =
>> to push the technology forward.
>>>>> However I personally cannot afford the cost of being an early
> adopter
>> =
>> of electric vehicles. Despite the the technogy advancement in e-vehicles
>> ma=
>> de in the last 10 years, we are still in the infancy of this new breed of
>> t=
>> ransportation. F
>>>>> I am really waiting for a larger hybrid mini SUV platform to come to
>> m=
>> aturity.
>>>> =20
>>>> Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and
>> ab=
>> andoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental
>> be=
>> nefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about
>> twice=
>> what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that
> would
>> =
>> bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
>>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> You would not add an engine and transmission to 5400 lb Tesla. You'd
> add
>> =
>> a small=20
>>> engine/generator sufficient to keep the batteries charged at highway
>> spee=
>> d, and=20
>>> reduce the battery to, say, 100 mile capacity instead of 300 miles.
> It's
>> =
>> then a=20
>>> plug-in hybrid, and it's characteristics are significantly different
>> from=
>> a=20
>>> typical hybrid. It'd be cheaper than the 100D, because batteries are
>> stil=
>> l=20
>>> relatively expensive. The Prius Prime is a good example, with 50 mpg on
>> g=
>> as, 28=20
>>> mile electric range, and 500 mile total range (10 gallon tank!). For
>> most=
>> owners,=20
>>> most of the driving would be electric, and "gas milage" can easily
>> exceed=
>> 150 mpg.
>>> =20
>>> But, we seem to have drifted rather far from the ability of a Tesla to
>> to=
>> w a=20
>>> glider trailer. Let's get back to that.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> --=20
>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>> email=
>> me)
>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-th=
>> e-guide-1
>>
>> You can already buy that car - it's called a Chevy Volt. That
>> configuration=
>> doesn't seem to capture the imagination of the tree-hugging EV customer,
>> h=
>> owever.
>>
>> There's no question that the Tesla can tow a glider, but at an incredibly
>> s=
>> low overall speed (under 30 mph). And forget about going to Ely - well,
>> you=
>> could throw in a motor-generator and a lot of gas.
>>
>> Tom
>>

--
Dan, 5J

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/16/2019 8:13 AM:
> Yeah!* And have an extension cord between the trailer and the car and keep the
> generator running in the trailer so that you don't have to stop until you need to
> pee, which you could mitigate by drilling a hole in the floor to run your relief
> system outside.* Oh, and bring a bunch of water along to clean up the glider of
> generator exhaust, or to put out the fire in the trailer. :-D
>
> Winter is less than a week away...

Will the Tesla let you drive and charge simultaneously? I don't think it would
have to be a 3 phase generator, but just a two phase 240VAC 40 amp to supply power
like you have in a home, using a 10KW generator (kind of big for a glider
trailer). That would almost double your range, since it can charge at 30
miles/hour. Still, I think I'd rather stop at a charger while I pee, get a bite to
eat, and walk around some.

My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on
the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings...

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 11:30:12 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on
> the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings...

Or, pulling the trailer to your next destination while you are soaring there!

Steve Leonard

[Dan Marotta]

On 12/16/2019 10:30 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I
> hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS
> postings...


Just put it on Cruise Control...

--
Dan, 5J

[Alan Garside]

The electric Rover (I don't know the model) takes 38 hours to recharge on a
single phase supply but only 4 hours on a three phase supply. Is the Tesla
3 similar?


At 17:56 16 December 2019, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>On 12/16/2019 10:30 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I
>> hang out on the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS
>> postings...
>
>
>Just put it on Cruise Control...
>
>--
>Dan, 5J
>

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

I didn't get the memo either.

I would think it depends a bit on what mission profiles you are thinking of as well as price-performance tradeoffs one might be willing to make. Also, the tradeoffs aren't necessarily as stark as what you describe - at least not when I looked at it.

I recently ordered a plug-in hybrid SUV. It gets about 25 miles of range in all-electric mode, which should cover about 75% of my daily driving trips when I'm not going cross-country to a glider contest or something. Obviously in the higher desert of the western US and remote glider fields make it pretty impractical to be in an all-electric vehicle.

My garage is pre-wired for 220V charging to that helped with the decision. One other reason I got it was the extra torque and horsepower. Max torque (electric motors have a super-flat torque curves compared to ICE propulsion) is 55% higher and horsepower is 36% higher at a cost of about 13% higher weight. This makes torque/weight about 35% higher and 0-60 time is about 25% faster. So the extra performance more than compensates for the extra 600 lbs in weight. It also allows you to go with a smaller and more efficient V-6 instead of a bigger, more expensive and less efficient gas engine. Yes, I know I probably don't need that much extra performance, but combining it with the all-electric around town capability pushed me over the edge.

Yes, the base price is also 15% higher to get an electric plus gas engine, but this compares to a 75% premium (!) to go with a bigger ICE propulsion system. So, hybrid got me a similar performance boost at a fraction of the incremental cost. For me and my wide range of missions (very short trips plus very long trips) it made sense to go plug-in hybrid. I understand that the cost-performance tradeoff might not work for everyone, but it worked for me.

I also tend to keep my cars for nearly a decade. That helps in the justification. Different manufacturers and models will present different design tradeoffs. I'm happy with my decision for now.

Andy Blackburn
9B

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 3:36:02 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> Maybe you didn't get the memo, but auto manufacturers have tried and abandoned hybrid vehicles - they add a lot of cost for a small incremental benefit. The Tesla 100D already weighs in at a whooping 5400 lbs, about twice what an ICE sedan weighs. Adding an engine and transmission to that would bring it up to around 7000 lbs, more than my Super Duty F250 weighs.
>
> Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Steve Leonard wrote on 12/16/2019 9:45 AM:
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 11:30:12 AM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>> My dream is a self-driving motorhome that can tow the glider while I hang out on
>> the couch, sipping a glass of wine, catching up on RAS postings...
>
> Or, pulling the trailer to your next destination while you are soaring there!

Oh, sure, during the day! But at night, a little wine, some whining on RAS, then
off to bed, while RoboHome takes us to the next soaring area.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Alan Garside wrote on 12/16/2019 10:08 AM:
> The electric Rover (I don't know the model) takes 38 hours to recharge on a
> single phase supply but only 4 hours on a three phase supply. Is the Tesla
> 3 similar?

I assume so, but it also charges fairly fast on a single phase 240VAC, 50A
circuit, like you find in RV parks. That's good for 30 miles/hour; a single phase,
120VAC 15A wall receptacle can only charge at 4 miles/hour. I really don't know
the best choice for a generator to put in your trailer, but you do have 240VAC
single phase in most homes. It's what the city utility delivers.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Charlie Quebec]

Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.

Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
>
> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
>
Speed possibly?

In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing speed
limit below the standard motorway limit there too.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 4:23 PM:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
>>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
>>
>> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
>>
> Speed possibly?
>
> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing speed
> limit below the standard motorway limit there too.

It's a big country, and we do have some impatient pilots, so that's certainly some
of it. Some western states have 80 mph speed limits on the interstate highways.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:00:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 4:23 PM:
>> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
>>>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
>>>
>>> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
>>>
>> Speed possibly?
>>
>> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
>> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing
>> speed limit below the standard motorway limit there too.
>
> It's a big country, and we do have some impatient pilots, so that's
> certainly some of it. Some western states have 80 mph speed limits on
> the interstate highways.

Thinking back, I remember that in the early '90s California had a lower
towing speed on freeways than for unencumbered cars, so from what you
said I guess this type of restriction no longer exists.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 6:22:47 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?

I know! I know!
1) The Europeans use much stiffer suspension
2) Which is SO uncomfortable, they drive at wuss speeds.

Have I got it right R?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 5:31 PM:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:00:40 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>> Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 4:23 PM:
>>> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
>>>>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
>>>>
>>>> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
>>>>
>>> Speed possibly?
>>>
>>> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
>>> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing
>>> speed limit below the standard motorway limit there too.
>>
>> It's a big country, and we do have some impatient pilots, so that's
>> certainly some of it. Some western states have 80 mph speed limits on
>> the interstate highways.
>
> Thinking back, I remember that in the early '90s California had a lower
> towing speed on freeways than for unencumbered cars, so from what you
> said I guess this type of restriction no longer exists.

It still exists in California: 55 mph towing speed for any vehicle towing a
trailer. Most states do not have restrictions for automobiles, pickups, and
motorhomes, but only for commercial vehicles ("semis" towing trailers [aka 18
wheelers]). Even those are at least 60 mph, usually 65, sometimes higher.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

More importantly, how long until the Tesla Model 3 is autonomous? No more need for ground crew!

[2G]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:16:13 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> > Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> >
> > Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>
> More importantly, how long until the Tesla Model 3 is autonomous? No more need for ground crew!

Sorry, but all Tesla autonomous features are disabled in the towing mode.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Tom, your comparison between hybrid and regular gas car is completely off.
I am on my second Lexus RX hybrid SUV. Cost few thousand more but I probably recoup it in couple of years.
Most of us glider pilots drive far more than 8000 miles per year. More like 20K miles per year for me. And at least anywhere in the west, cost of gas is $3-$4 on average. And you don’t need to use premium as they said.. I am getting close to 5MPG more on average (26MPG overall average city+Hwy with lots of towing) And the maintenance cost is actually less as the brakes need replacement every 100-150K miles thanks to the regenerative braking. And the hybrid battery last longer then the car probably. My 2007 RX400 has over 250K, and never needed more than the scheduled maintenance. Never broke down. I only needed to replace the 12v battery few times. Best car I ever owned and towed gliders with. I hope my new RX450 will serve me as well.
My wife has a tesla model 3 and we both love it. But I can’t imagine hooking my glider trailer to it.

Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, and last time (and hopefully THE last time) I was in California,
the speed limit while towing a trailer was 55 mph.

On 12/16/2019 6:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 4:23 PM:
>> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
>>>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
>>>
>>> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
>>>
>> Speed possibly?
>>
>> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
>> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing
>> speed
>> limit below the standard motorway limit there too.
>
> It's a big country, and we do have some impatient pilots, so that's
> certainly some of it. Some western states have 80 mph speed limits on
> the interstate highways.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Does the car know that it's towing a trailer or do you have to tell it
so?Â* My mere Ford has a separate towing mode, but I have to manually set it.

On 12/16/2019 9:37 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:16:13 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
>>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>>>
>>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>> More importantly, how long until the Tesla Model 3 is autonomous? No more need for ground crew!
> Sorry, but all Tesla autonomous features are disabled in the towing mode.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:21:37 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Does the car know that it's towing a trailer or do you have to tell it
> so?Â* My mere Ford has a separate towing mode, but I have to manually set it.
>
> On 12/16/2019 9:37 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:16:13 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> >> On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> >>> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> >>>
> >>> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
> >> More importantly, how long until the Tesla Model 3 is autonomous? No more need for ground crew!
> > Sorry, but all Tesla autonomous features are disabled in the towing mode.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Dan, the scary thing is that yes, the car knows. My Mercedes SUV gives me a warning that the blind spot feature is disabled as soon as I hook up the trailer.

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

You can set trailer mode manually, but the Model X goes into trailer mode when I plug the trailer lights in.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:37:55 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:16:13 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
> > > Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> > >
> > > Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
> >
> > More importantly, how long until the Tesla Model 3 is autonomous? No more need for ground crew!
>
> Sorry, but all Tesla autonomous features are disabled in the towing mode.

Get Elon into gliding and soon we will have self driving trailers!

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, 17 December 2019 00:23:55 UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
> >> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
> >
> > Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
> >
> Speed possibly?
>
> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing speed
> limit below the standard motorway limit there too.
>
Not always. In some countries there's no difference for towing, e.g. France 130 km/h Belgium 120 km/h. Others quite low, like 80 km/h, or used to be 70 km/h in a couple.

Another post speculates that European cars have hard suspension and we drive like a wuss. I don't think so.

From the sound of the average speed mentioned by the Tesla on longer trips towing, any fuel cost saving might be outweighed by extra hotel bills.

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

Folks who don't drive electric vehicles often equate charging with putting fuel into a tank. Fill'er up. The reality is, when traveling I only charge to a capacity that allows me to reach the next planned charge location with a 20% reserve. If the next charge stop only requires a 60% charge (40% for travel + 20% reserve), I only charge until the battery reaches 60% (about 20 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger); then I hit the road. I rarely charge to 100%. For openers, the batteries don't like being fully charged, and secondarily charging is like pouring water into a bucket. When the bucket is empty, you can pour as fast as you like, but as the bucket approaches full, you need to slow down. So I can charge the Model X from 20% to 80% in the same time it takes to charge from 80% to 100%. To reduce time charging, the tactic is to run the battery down to as low a charge as is comfortable and then charge up only as needed to reach the next charging location. For what it is worth, having to stop for 1/2 hr to charge every 2-3 hours and driving in the left lane with the professional truck drivers and slight lower speeds makes for much more relaxed travel. Back to the topic of towing, the extra mass of the Model X (5500 lb) makes it a very stable towing platform. With the exceptions of a 35% reduction in range and not being able to see much out the back window, I barely noticed I was pulling a 30 foot trailer. The ample torque also allows for worry free and nearly instantaneous passing ability. A fellow Model X owner once told me, and after having driven mine for 3 years I must agree, none of the things you think would be a problem with an electric vehicle (especially a Tesla) are actually problems.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Scott Manley wrote on 12/17/2019 12:19 PM:
For what it is worth, having to stop for 1/2
> hr to charge every 2-3 hours and driving in the left lane with the professional
> truck drivers and slight lower speeds makes for much more relaxed travel. Back
> to the topic of towing, the extra mass of the Model X (5500 lb) makes it a very
> stable towing platform. With the exceptions of a 35% reduction in range and
> not being able to see much out the back window, I barely noticed I was pulling
> a 30 foot trailer. The ample torque also allows for worry free and nearly
> instantaneous passing ability. A fellow Model X owner once told me, and after
> having driven mine for 3 years I must agree, none of the things you think would
> be a problem with an electric vehicle (especially a Tesla) are actually
> problems.
>
You are still driving faster, though stopping about as often, as I do in my
motorhome towing my trailer. I fantasize about pickup/van electric propulsion
migrating to small(ish) motorhomes like mine, so I can get more than 400 miles out
of a 50 gallon tank. And, maybe get much better acceleration onto the freeways and
around the folks going 55 in the 65 lane.

Not sure which fantasy will arrive first, just hoping I last long enough to at
least see one appear: electric motorhomes or self-driving motorhomes.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 11:49:26 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> Tom, your comparison between hybrid and regular gas car is completely off..
> I am on my second Lexus RX hybrid SUV. Cost few thousand more but I probably recoup it in couple of years.
> Most of us glider pilots drive far more than 8000 miles per year. More like 20K miles per year for me. And at least anywhere in the west, cost of gas is $3-$4 on average. And you don’t need to use premium as they said. I am getting close to 5MPG more on average (26MPG overall average city+Hwy with lots of towing) And the maintenance cost is actually less as the brakes need replacement every 100-150K miles thanks to the regenerative braking. And the hybrid battery last longer then the car probably. My 2007 RX400 has over 250K, and never needed more than the scheduled maintenance. Never broke down. I only needed to replace the 12v battery few times. Best car I ever owned and towed gliders with. I hope my new RX450 will serve me as well.
> My wife has a tesla model 3 and we both love it. But I can’t imagine hooking my glider trailer to it.
>
> Ramy

Ramy,

My analysis was based on Toyota's published numbers for the RAV4 which are government approved. The mileage and gas price is a national average - look it up. I am a glider pilot and I drive about 6,500 miles per year. If I use your mileage and CA prices the payback period drops to between 2.5 and 12 years, longer if you figure the time-value of money. A hybrid clearly makes more sense if you live in CA and do (a lot of) mostly city driving, but most of us don't. And I haven't had to do a brake job on any of my vehicles in many years.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Very informative, thanks!

On 12/17/2019 1:19 PM, Scott Manley wrote:
> Folks who don't drive electric vehicles often equate charging with putting fuel into a tank. Fill'er up. The reality is, when traveling I only charge to a capacity that allows me to reach the next planned charge location with a 20% reserve. If the next charge stop only requires a 60% charge (40% for travel + 20% reserve), I only charge until the battery reaches 60% (about 20 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger); then I hit the road. I rarely charge to 100%. For openers, the batteries don't like being fully charged, and secondarily charging is like pouring water into a bucket. When the bucket is empty, you can pour as fast as you like, but as the bucket approaches full, you need to slow down. So I can charge the Model X from 20% to 80% in the same time it takes to charge from 80% to 100%. To reduce time charging, the tactic is to run the battery down to as low a charge as is comfortable and then charge up only as needed to reach the next charging location. For what it is worth, having to stop for 1/2 hr to charge every 2-3 hours and driving in the left lane with the professional truck drivers and slight lower speeds makes for much more relaxed travel. Back to the topic of towing, the extra mass of the Model X (5500 lb) makes it a very stable towing platform. With the exceptions of a 35% reduction in range and not being able to see much out the back window, I barely noticed I was pulling a 30 foot trailer. The ample torque also allows for worry free and nearly instantaneous passing ability. A fellow Model X owner once told me, and after having driven mine for 3 years I must agree, none of the things you think would be a problem with an electric vehicle (especially a Tesla) are actually problems.

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:19:41 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Yes, and last time (and hopefully THE last time) I was in California,
> the speed limit while towing a trailer was 55 mph.
>
> On 12/16/2019 6:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Martin Gregorie wrote on 12/16/2019 4:23 PM:
> >> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 15:22:44 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Charlie Quebec wrote on 12/16/2019 2:20 PM:
> >>>> Ah, Americans and their overcompensation trucks.sad.
> >>>
> >>> Why is the same trailer stable in Europe, but not in America?
> >>>
> >> Speed possibly?
> >>
> >> In the UK towing with a car at more than 60mph makes you eligible for a
> >> speeding ticket. I haven't towed in Europe, but I'd expect a towing
> >> speed
> >> limit below the standard motorway limit there too.
> >
> > It's a big country, and we do have some impatient pilots, so that's
> > certainly some of it. Some western states have 80 mph speed limits on
> > the interstate highways.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

It still is, but if you actually drive 55 you will be passed by A LOT of vehicles towing trailers (meaning most).

Tom

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 6:43:59 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:19:41 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Yes, and last time (and hopefully THE last time) I was in California,
> > the speed limit while towing a trailer was 55 mph.
>
> It still is, but if you actually drive 55 you will be passed by A LOT of vehicles towing trailers (meaning most).
>
> Tom

And when I am towing a glider through California, I am happy to let someone else get the Certificate of Rapid Progress by driving over 55 MPH while I cruise along at 55 MPH.

Steve Leonard

[2G]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 6:43:59 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:19:41 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Yes, and last time (and hopefully THE last time) I was in California,
> > > the speed limit while towing a trailer was 55 mph.
> >
> > It still is, but if you actually drive 55 you will be passed by A LOT of vehicles towing trailers (meaning most).
> >
> > Tom
>
> And when I am towing a glider through California, I am happy to let someone else get the Certificate of Rapid Progress by driving over 55 MPH while I cruise along at 55 MPH.
>
> Steve Leonard

My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!

Tom

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>
> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
>
> Tom

Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?

Steve Leonard

[John Foster]

On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> >
> > My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
> >
> > Tom
>
> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
>
> Steve Leonard

Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>>>
>>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
>>
>> Steve Leonard
>
> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.

I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
please, please leave space for others to do so.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:58:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
> > On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> >>>
> >>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>
> >> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
> >>
> >> Steve Leonard
> >
> > Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.
>
> I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
> out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
> many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
> follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
> driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
> when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
> please, please leave space for others to do so.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

You didn't read my comment very well - my wife WAS driving the speed limit: any trucks wanting to pass would have been SPEEDING. They wanted her to leave TWO spaces for semi's to pull in.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/18/2019 5:19 PM:
> On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:58:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
>>>>
>>>> Steve Leonard
>>>
>>> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.
>>
>> I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
>> out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
>> many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
>> follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
>> driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
>> when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
>> please, please leave space for others to do so.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> You didn't read my comment very well - my wife WAS driving the speed limit: any trucks wanting to pass would have been SPEEDING. They wanted her to leave TWO spaces for semi's to pull in.

Ah, you didn't say semi's. I thought you meant big trucks without trailers. I
still admire and encourage his concern about people that follow closely, even if
he mishandled that situation. It's rare that people get reprimanded for following
too closely, even though it can trigger dangerous driving from other people trying
to pass.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:35:02 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/18/2019 5:19 PM:
> > On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:58:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
> >>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve Leonard
> >>>
> >>> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.
> >>
> >> I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
> >> out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
> >> many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
> >> follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
> >> driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
> >> when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
> >> please, please leave space for others to do so.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > You didn't read my comment very well - my wife WAS driving the speed limit: any trucks wanting to pass would have been SPEEDING. They wanted her to leave TWO spaces for semi's to pull in.
>
> Ah, you didn't say semi's. I thought you meant big trucks without trailers. I
> still admire and encourage his concern about people that follow closely, even if
> he mishandled that situation. It's rare that people get reprimanded for following
> too closely, even though it can trigger dangerous driving from other people trying
> to pass.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

A semi IS a truck. This was not about "following too closely," this was about leaving space for TWO semi's to pass her and pull in. AND the semi's would have to be clearly speeding. When you are pacing with traffic you DON'T leave such large gaps. It just shows that the CA trooper was not worried AT ALL about speeding trucks. He actually admonished her about being OVER THE LIMIT (55 mph) at 60 mph.

Tom

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 8:35:02 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> 2G wrote on 12/18/2019 5:19 PM:
> > On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:58:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
> >>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve Leonard
> >>>
> >>> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.
> >>
> >> I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
> >> out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
> >> many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
> >> follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
> >> driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
> >> when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
> >> please, please leave space for others to do so.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> >> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > You didn't read my comment very well - my wife WAS driving the speed limit: any trucks wanting to pass would have been SPEEDING. They wanted her to leave TWO spaces for semi's to pull in.
>
> Ah, you didn't say semi's. I thought you meant big trucks without trailers. I
> still admire and encourage his concern about people that follow closely, even if
> he mishandled that situation. It's rare that people get reprimanded for following
> too closely, even though it can trigger dangerous driving from other people trying
> to pass.
>
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Following too closely is when there is not enough room for you to stop if the vehicle in front of you stops suddenly. Anything else is BS. Show me the traffic statute/law that requires leaving space between you and the next vehicle for a semi truck to pull in-between you.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:41:06 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > >
> > > My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
> >
> > Steve Leonard
>
> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.

With all due respect I submit that is a bit of a logic jump based on the word of the husband of an alleged aggrieved. I live in California, the planet's fifth largest economy, and leader in social, economic morays. I am also learned in the law. I can unequivocally state that there is no jurisdiction on Earth where an accused has more rights than the State. Believe it or not Victims Rights are relatively new in jurisprudence.

[JS[_5_]]

Anyone seen or heard from that Tesla 3? Fred has really drifted on this one..

I'm always interested in hearing about efficient, practical vehicles that can tow. Most glider trailers in the world are not towed by anything with a truck suspension! Of the three vehicles I compared towing the same heavy glider, the Chevy Tahoe was largest, least efficient and worst at towing. The 2.5l Outback was the winner. Holden Commodore in the middle somewhere.
The last quest for a vehicle had the following requirements:

Fun and comfortable to drive.
All wheel drive.
Can easily tow a Duo.
At least 30 miles per gallon (under 7.8l/100km) in normal use.
Long range.
Affordable.

A used GLK250 fit the bill well. Last trip was 244 miles at 78 mph average door to door, still at 29.7 mpg and arriving with half a tank. It'll do much better on that trip if kept below "a ton", but that's sometimes part of the fun and comfortable to drive bit, somewhat like a Tesla.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Now that you mention it, back when I had a glider with a trailer, my
wife's 3.6l Subaru Outback was the best towing vehicle I ever used. It's
hard to find the flat 6 for a Subaru these days, but she found one and
loves it.Â* Now with over 150,000 miles and still runs like new.

On 12/19/2019 10:31 AM, JS wrote:
> Anyone seen or heard from that Tesla 3? Fred has really drifted on this one.
>
> I'm always interested in hearing about efficient, practical vehicles that can tow. Most glider trailers in the world are not towed by anything with a truck suspension! Of the three vehicles I compared towing the same heavy glider, the Chevy Tahoe was largest, least efficient and worst at towing. The 2.5l Outback was the winner. Holden Commodore in the middle somewhere.
> The last quest for a vehicle had the following requirements:
>
> Fun and comfortable to drive.
> All wheel drive.
> Can easily tow a Duo.
> At least 30 miles per gallon (under 7.8l/100km) in normal use.
> Long range.
> Affordable.
>
> A used GLK250 fit the bill well. Last trip was 244 miles at 78 mph average door to door, still at 29.7 mpg and arriving with half a tank. It'll do much better on that trip if kept below "a ton", but that's sometimes part of the fun and comfortable to drive bit, somewhat like a Tesla.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[James Metcalfe]

At 16:10 19 December 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>... leader in social, economic morays. I am also learned in the law.

"Morays" ?? Clearly more slippery than a Latin-literate legal eagle (who
would have written "mores") (;-o)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 12/18/2019 9:01 PM:
> On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:35:02 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> 2G wrote on 12/18/2019 5:19 PM:
>>> On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 4:58:16 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>>> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 4:41 PM:
>>>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2019 at 7:42:30 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My wife got a warning from a CA trooper for NOT ALLOWING sufficient space between her and the vehicle in front for speeding trucks to pass her on a 2-lane highway!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Always amazing when you get in trouble for accidentally keeping someone else from breaking the law, isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Leonard
>>>>>
>>>>> Gotta love that California mind-set where the criminal has more rights than the victim.
>>>>
>>>> I'm with the trooper, who sounds generous in giving only a warning (mercy for an
>>>> out of state driver?). I've often been forced to drive below the speed limit for
>>>> many miles on two lane roads by vehicles that do not pass the lead vehicle, but
>>>> follow too closely to safely pass them. It's a difficult situation when I'm
>>>> driving a car, very difficult when driving the motorhome, and generally impossible
>>>> when I'm towing the glider trailer with my motorhome. If you aren't going to pass,
>>>> please, please leave space for others to do so.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>>>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>>>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>>>
>>> You didn't read my comment very well - my wife WAS driving the speed limit: any trucks wanting to pass would have been SPEEDING. They wanted her to leave TWO spaces for semi's to pull in.
>>
>> Ah, you didn't say semi's. I thought you meant big trucks without trailers. I
>> still admire and encourage his concern about people that follow closely, even if
>> he mishandled that situation. It's rare that people get reprimanded for following
>> too closely, even though it can trigger dangerous driving from other people trying
>> to pass.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
>> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> A semi IS a truck. This was not about "following too closely," this was about leaving space for TWO semi's to pass her and pull in. AND the semi's would have to be clearly speeding. When you are pacing with traffic you DON'T leave such large gaps. It just shows that the CA trooper was not worried AT ALL about speeding trucks. He actually admonished her about being OVER THE LIMIT (55 mph) at 60 mph.

My reply was to Steve Leonard. I'm sorry it sounded like I was talking about your
wife's driving - that was not my intention.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 9:03 PM:


> Following too closely is when there is not enough room for you to stop if the
> vehicle in front of you stops suddenly. Anything else is BS. Show me the
> traffic statute/law that requires leaving space between you and the next
> vehicle for a semi truck to pull in-between you.
>
I don't know if there is a legal requirement to leave room for people enter your
lane ahead of you on a two lane highway, but as matter of courtesy and safety, I
routinely provide that space when I do not intend to pass the care ahead of me.
Courtesy - I don't want to impede drivers that are able to travel faster than I
can; Safety - so people are less likely to take the extra risk of having to pass
two or more vehicles at the same time. That's safer for them and the rest of us
that are nearby, or approaching.

Generally, this situation occurs when I'm in my motorhome, towing my trailer. I'm
already something a moving road block, so I try not to make it worse.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-8, James Metcalfe wrote:
> At 16:10 19 December 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >... leader in social, economic morays. I am also learned in the law.
>
> "Morays" ?? Clearly more slippery than a Latin-literate legal eagle (who
> would have written "mores") (;-o)

Can you say auto-correct on phone? Sheesh, everyone is so critical. Hope you saw the forest through the tree. Merry Christmas

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 10:21:54 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 9:03 PM:
>
>
> > Following too closely is when there is not enough room for you to stop if the
> > vehicle in front of you stops suddenly. Anything else is BS. Show me the
> > traffic statute/law that requires leaving space between you and the next
> > vehicle for a semi truck to pull in-between you.
> >
> I don't know if there is a legal requirement to leave room for people enter your
> lane ahead of you on a two lane highway, but as matter of courtesy and safety, I
> routinely provide that space when I do not intend to pass the care ahead of me.
> Courtesy - I don't want to impede drivers that are able to travel faster than I
> can; Safety - so people are less likely to take the extra risk of having to pass
> two or more vehicles at the same time. That's safer for them and the rest of us
> that are nearby, or approaching.
>
> Generally, this situation occurs when I'm in my motorhome, towing my trailer. I'm
> already something a moving road block, so I try not to make it worse.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Real simple, leave 2 seconds distance between you and the target in front, works at any speed and will keep you within the law.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:47 PM:
> On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 10:21:54 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 9:03 PM:
>>
>>
>>> Following too closely is when there is not enough room for you to stop if the
>>> vehicle in front of you stops suddenly. Anything else is BS. Show me the
>>> traffic statute/law that requires leaving space between you and the next
>>> vehicle for a semi truck to pull in-between you.
>>>
>> I don't know if there is a legal requirement to leave room for people enter your
>> lane ahead of you on a two lane highway, but as matter of courtesy and safety, I
>> routinely provide that space when I do not intend to pass the care ahead of me.
>> Courtesy - I don't want to impede drivers that are able to travel faster than I
>> can; Safety - so people are less likely to take the extra risk of having to pass
>> two or more vehicles at the same time. That's safer for them and the rest of us
>> that are nearby, or approaching.
>>
>> Generally, this situation occurs when I'm in my motorhome, towing my trailer. I'm
>> already something a moving road block, so I try not to make it worse.

> Real simple, leave 2 seconds distance between you and the target in front, works at any speed and will keep you within the law.
>
That's the minimum distance I use when I am trying to pass, or keeping up with the
car ahead in a busy traffic situation. It's not enough for a car to comfortably
pass me and pull in, and way too short for someone towing a trailer with a car to
pull in. That requires at least 3 seconds, probably more, and I usually use more.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 1:31:51 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:47 PM:
> > On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 10:21:54 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> John Foster wrote on 12/18/2019 9:03 PM:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Following too closely is when there is not enough room for you to stop if the
> >>> vehicle in front of you stops suddenly. Anything else is BS. Show me the
> >>> traffic statute/law that requires leaving space between you and the next
> >>> vehicle for a semi truck to pull in-between you.
> >>>
> >> I don't know if there is a legal requirement to leave room for people enter your
> >> lane ahead of you on a two lane highway, but as matter of courtesy and safety, I
> >> routinely provide that space when I do not intend to pass the care ahead of me.
> >> Courtesy - I don't want to impede drivers that are able to travel faster than I
> >> can; Safety - so people are less likely to take the extra risk of having to pass
> >> two or more vehicles at the same time. That's safer for them and the rest of us
> >> that are nearby, or approaching.
> >>
> >> Generally, this situation occurs when I'm in my motorhome, towing my trailer. I'm
> >> already something a moving road block, so I try not to make it worse.
>
> > Real simple, leave 2 seconds distance between you and the target in front, works at any speed and will keep you within the law.
> >
> That's the minimum distance I use when I am trying to pass, or keeping up with the
> car ahead in a busy traffic situation. It's not enough for a car to comfortably
> pass me and pull in, and way too short for someone towing a trailer with a car to
> pull in. That requires at least 3 seconds, probably more, and I usually use more.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Here is the CA driver's handbook:

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/web/eng_pdf/dl600.pdf

The ONLY place in it that they mention "following distance" (pg. 66) is when behind a motorcycle (pg. 76) - absolutely NOTHING about giving semi's space to pass you. If you did abide by what the CA trouper told my wife you would have to allow MORE than 3 seconds, and more like 4 seconds. Sometimes troupers make up laws on the fly and lump it into "careless driving"...

[kinsell]

On 12/13/19 2:19 PM, bertvaneyken wrote:
> Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
>
> Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
>

screw the Tesla, the Fisker Ocean is on the scene now. Features karaoke
on the HUD, and California mode for the windows. 300 mile range, 0-60
in 2.9 seconds.

Even better, solar cells on the roof are said to provide 1000 free
miles. They're a little vague, is that per day, per week, or during the
lifetime of the car?? I'd bet on the third option. If you run out of
juice on your way to Ely, you're not stuck, just slows you down a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0sMYhHUIP0

[2G]

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 10:03:57 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
> On 12/13/19 2:19 PM, bertvaneyken wrote:
> > Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?
> >
> > Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
> >
>
> screw the Tesla, the Fisker Ocean is on the scene now. Features karaoke
> on the HUD, and California mode for the windows. 300 mile range, 0-60
> in 2.9 seconds.
>
> Even better, solar cells on the roof are said to provide 1000 free
> miles. They're a little vague, is that per day, per week, or during the
> lifetime of the car?? I'd bet on the third option. If you run out of
> juice on your way to Ely, you're not stuck, just slows you down a bit.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0sMYhHUIP0

It would be kinda nice to arrive DURING the soaring season.

Tom