Long Term Motorglider Launch costs

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
He smiles and takes off.
I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
really cost him?
Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
That's 250 launches
In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
65X 250 launches = $16,250

What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
Do you try to keep track?
Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
Thanks in advance
T

[2G]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:23:41 PM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> He smiles and takes off.
> I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> really cost him?
> Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
> That's 250 launches
> In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> 65X 250 launches = $16,250
>
> What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> Do you try to keep track?
> Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
> Thanks in advance
> T

I've always said that NOBODY buys a MG to save money on tows. It falls more into the category of that's the ONLY way to get airborne. I guess you could by a towplane and hire or find a tow pilot. Cost savings, if any, occur by avoiding travel costs to a site with a towplane, which can be considerable. One weekend away from home can run $300 - $500. Finally, it can save you the cost of a divorce, which I understand to be VERY EXPENSIVE.

Tom

[jfitch]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:23:41 PM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> He smiles and takes off.
> I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> really cost him?
> Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
> That's 250 launches
> In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> 65X 250 launches = $16,250
>
> What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> Do you try to keep track?
> Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
> Thanks in advance
> T

A rare instance when I will agree with 2G :). A MG is a convenience, not an economy. A self launch engine is at least a $50K option. At 5% interest (still available even in this economy) that is $2500 a year income, or at your prices 38 launches per year. Forever. Not counting gas, maintenance, etc. Historically you have gotten the capital back when you sell the MG, but you are still out the time value of the money.

On operations, it costs me about 1/2 gallon per launch at around $5/gal in 100LL, so $2.50 per. There is extra routine maintenance every year, paying someone to do it might amount to 5 hours or $375. Unscheduled is hard to quantify - I've had about $2000 worth in 20 years but some have had way more. Since I do most of the work myself, I'm averaging about $5 in maintenance per launch. Many fields now have a motorglider launch fee, to recover some of the fixed cost of the operation, where I fly that is $10 - so now I'm up to $17.50 for my free launch. A retrieve costs me about $5 in gas, vs. at least $200 in tow plane charges, average about one a year so that comes off of it. Best guess is under $10 per launch on operations.

But - roaring off the runway waving to your buddies who are 10th in line, or announcing on the CTAF "L6 will attempt an engine restart" above 5 of your best friends sitting on the ground at the landout site waiting for the towplane - priceless! I get to launch when I want, at my own pace, no one pushing me from behind or in my way in front. And the inconvenience of a retrieve is almost 100% mitigated which leads to more flying.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM:
> Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> He smiles and takes off.
> I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> really cost him?
> Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
> That's 250 launches
> In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> 65X 250 launches = $16,250
>
> What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> Do you try to keep track?
> Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?

The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch
uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi
time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like
requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses,
fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped
began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years.

The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours
if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't.

The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car
or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes;
sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to
having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth
to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or
towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead.

So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you
never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very
conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to
explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get
home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best
glider we've ever had, and worth every penny!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 7:04:40 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM:
> > Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> > He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> > He smiles and takes off.
> > I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> > really cost him?
> > Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> > Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too..
> > That's 250 launches
> > In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> > 65X 250 launches = $16,250
> >
> > What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> > Do you try to keep track?
> > Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
>
> The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch
> uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi
> time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like
> requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses,
> fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped
> began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years.
>
> The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours
> if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't.
>
> The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car
> or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes;
> sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to
> having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth
> to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or
> towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead.
>
> So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you
> never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very
> conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to
> explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get
> home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best
> glider we've ever had, and worth every penny!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

In SW Florida the closest glider operation is at least a 2 hour drive away. I have a Phoenix Motorglider in a standard T-Hangar at the Naples airport, which is 10 minutes from my house. It takes me another 10 minutes to pull the motorglider out of the hangar and install the wing tips and I am flying (unless I am lined up behind a bunch of business jets waiting for takeoff).

That's the beauty of owning a touring motorglider.

[[email protected]]

One cost that has not been mentioned is the insurance premium on a motorglider. Potential hazards and risks aside, you are paying your premium based on a much higher hull value. Anybody care to chime in with premium costs on say, a DG-400? That would give a decent reference point when compared to a pure glider of the same era and roughly the same performance such as the ASW-20. Newer ships will have bigger numbers for sure, but it would be interesting to get some data.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 12/15/2019 5:24 AM:
> One cost that has not been mentioned is the insurance premium on a motorglider. Potential hazards and risks aside, you are paying your premium based on a much higher hull value. Anybody care to chime in with premium costs on say, a DG-400? That would give a decent reference point when compared to a pure glider of the same era and roughly the same performance such as the ASW-20. Newer ships will have bigger numbers for sure, but it would be interesting to get some data.
>
I suggest you contact your current insurer, present them with the two gliders you
want to compare and the hull value you give them. That would be the best data you
can get. My experience is insurance premiums rise more slowly the hull value; for
example, adding $50K motor value to a $100K glider will increase the premium
significantly less than 50%. But maybe that's just me and my ratings and crash
free history over decades, and Costello. Ask them about your costs: Quick, easy,
and relevant.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

My experience is that hull premium scales almost directly proportional to insured value. As I recall, through Costello, it is about 1.5 to 1.8% of insured value to obtain in hull coverage (ground and in motion) for a year. This is based on a sample from early fiberglass sailplanes up through a complex two seat motorglider. I can't readily find my data on motor versus non motor for liability, but on all my gliders, liability coverage is the same, regardless of model. They may have messed up on my two seater, as I think the premium is the same on it for liability as it is on the single seaters.

If you are with Costello, and paying more than 1.8% of insured hull value per year, you are probably flying a plane that has had more claim dollars paid. I guess I am lucky that I am the dataset for most of my planes!

Steve Leonard

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Eric Greenwell wrote on 12/14/2019 5:04 PM:
> Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM:
>> Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
>> He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
>> He smiles and takes off.
>> I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
>> really cost him?
>> Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per
>> gasoline powered motorglider launch?
>> * Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the
>> engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
>> That's 250 launches
>> In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
>> 65X 250 launches = $16,250
>>
>> What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
>> Do you try to* keep track?
>> Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to
>> know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
>
> The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch
> uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi
> time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like
> requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses,
> fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped
> began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years.
>
> The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours
> if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't.
>
> The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car
> or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes;
> sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to
> having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth
> to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or
> towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead.
>
> So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you
> never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very
> conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to
> explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get
> home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best
> glider we've ever had, and worth every penny!

Adding to the above: You may be able to reduce launch costs with a motorglider, if
you can avoid a long drive to the towplane, and, instead, self-launch from an
airport near your home. And, while traveling with the glider, you can launch from
a nearby airport when you see cu forming, rather that deviating from your route to
a more distant gliderport (or weeping softly as you realize you will not be able
to fly in those lovely cu).

Some of my best flights were when traveling with motorglider, flying when things
looked good. There are lots of places with good soaring and no towplane for 100's
of miles. Think if it as improving the ROI in the "glider" part of the motorglider
- more flight time in better places!

[Dan Marotta]

The launch itself is way less expensive than the aero tow.Â* It's the
capital cost that's killer.

Last week another Stemme driver and I had a wonderful wave flight of
about 360 km with a 280 km triangle.Â* At some point in the flight he
asked me if I hated him for taking me for my first ride in a Stemme.Â* I
called him a ******* for causing me to spend so much money and then we
had a good laugh.Â* It's only money and I'll get a piece of it back when
I sell.

A little arithmetic is in order.Â* A Grob-103 or an LS-4 can be rented at
Moriarty for $50/hour.Â* Add to that about $65 for a tow. So a 4 hour
flight (you're only charged for the first 2 hours) would cost $165.Â*
Average that to $82.50/hour.Â* Now, if I sell my Stemme for, say, $50K
less than I paid for it and, to date, I've flown it 750 hours (in 4
years), that cost would amount to about $67/hour not counting
maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc.Â* Let's be generous and say $100/hour
which, given the comparison between the Stemme and the above ships, is
not a bad deal.Â* Not consider that I'll probably fly this ship another
8-10 years and another 1,000-1,500 hours and that hourly price drops
considerably.

To sum up, the expense of the tow is not really how much it costs on a
per unit basis, he's really saying that he laid out a lot of money to be
sitting in that cockpit.Â* He'll get a bunch of it back when he sells.

On 12/14/2019 4:23 PM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> He smiles and takes off.
> I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> really cost him?
> Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
> That's 250 launches
> In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> 65X 250 launches = $16,250
>
> What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> Do you try to keep track?
> Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
> Thanks in advance
> T

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The launch itself is way less expensive than the aero tow.Â* It's the
> capital cost that's killer.
>
> Last week another Stemme driver and I had a wonderful wave flight of
> about 360 km with a 280 km triangle.Â* At some point in the flight he
> asked me if I hated him for taking me for my first ride in a Stemme.Â* I
> called him a ******* for causing me to spend so much money and then we
> had a good laugh.Â* It's only money and I'll get a piece of it back when
> I sell.
>
> A little arithmetic is in order.Â* A Grob-103 or an LS-4 can be rented at
> Moriarty for $50/hour.Â* Add to that about $65 for a tow. So a 4 hour
> flight (you're only charged for the first 2 hours) would cost $165.Â*
> Average that to $82.50/hour.Â* Now, if I sell my Stemme for, say, $50K
> less than I paid for it and, to date, I've flown it 750 hours (in 4
> years), that cost would amount to about $67/hour not counting
> maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc.Â* Let's be generous and say $100/hour
> which, given the comparison between the Stemme and the above ships, is
> not a bad deal.Â* Not consider that I'll probably fly this ship another
> 8-10 years and another 1,000-1,500 hours and that hourly price drops
> considerably.
>
> To sum up, the expense of the tow is not really how much it costs on a
> per unit basis, he's really saying that he laid out a lot of money to be
> sitting in that cockpit.Â* He'll get a bunch of it back when he sells..
>
> On 12/14/2019 4:23 PM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> > He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> > He smiles and takes off.
> > I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> > really cost him?
> > Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> > Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too..
> > That's 250 launches
> > In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> > 65X 250 launches = $16,250
> >
> > What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> > Do you try to keep track?
> > Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
> > Thanks in advance
> > T
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

What price can you put on launching whenever and wherever you want? Priceless is my answer. I have watched pilots come out to the field at dawn to prep their gliders and be one of the first in the tow line. And when the towplane leaves, so do they. Just not having to travel every weekend to fly (and forget about weekdays) was enough for me to buy a MG. People mostly don't buy MGs because they can't afford them; if you can, go for it.

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:04:40 PM UTC-3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM:
> > Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
> > He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy"
> > He smiles and takes off.
> > I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch
> > really cost him?
> > Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch?
> > Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.
> > That's 250 launches
> > In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks.
> > 65X 250 launches = $16,250
> >
> > What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time?
> > Do you try to keep track?
> > Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ?
>
> The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch
> uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi
> time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like
> requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses,
> fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped
> began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years.
>
> The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours
> if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't.
>
> The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car
> or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes;
> sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to
> having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth
> to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or
> towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead.
>
> So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you
> never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very
> conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to
> explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get
> home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best
> glider we've ever had, and worth every penny!
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

True, only a motorglider allows one to explore remote places and /or fly in marginal weather.