Electric Variometer reading backwards

[JoeManji]

I have an issue with the electric variometer in my Libelle. I believe it is a Winter -- I will look up the exact model when I get a chance to visit the gliderport again, but for now, I was wondering if anyone has some idea what might be going wrong.

The following description has been confirmed by referencing my altimeter over time during climbs/descents and my mechanical variometer that is working correctly.

When I am climbing, I get "climbing" tones that have a higher pitch the faster I climb, but the variometer needle is pointing down. When I am descending, I get the slow, low-pitch "descending" tones, but the needle is pointing up. The proportions seem correct, but the needle is pointing in the opposite direction.

My thoughts are that the computer is pushing out correct data, considering that the tones are correct, but it is somehow reversed going to the needle. I wonder if the two wires could have been reversed during maintenance by a previous owner, but if that's not what happened, I'm afraid that if I swap them, it might break the computer or variometer.

Again, sorry for the lack of specifics -- I will try to post them later. But for now, has anybody heard of this error before, or do you have any suggestions?

[Dan Marotta]

Is it possible that the variometer is in cruise mode when you expect it
to be in climb mode or vice versa?Â* Is there a Climb/Cruise switch on
the stick or panel?Â* How about such a switch on the flap system that may
have come loose or lost a wire?

On 12/19/2019 9:19 AM, JoeManji wrote:
> I have an issue with the electric variometer in my Libelle. I believe it is a Winter -- I will look up the exact model when I get a chance to visit the gliderport again, but for now, I was wondering if anyone has some idea what might be going wrong.
>
> The following description has been confirmed by referencing my altimeter over time during climbs/descents and my mechanical variometer that is working correctly.
>
> When I am climbing, I get "climbing" tones that have a higher pitch the faster I climb, but the variometer needle is pointing down. When I am descending, I get the slow, low-pitch "descending" tones, but the needle is pointing up. The proportions seem correct, but the needle is pointing in the opposite direction.
>
> My thoughts are that the computer is pushing out correct data, considering that the tones are correct, but it is somehow reversed going to the needle. I wonder if the two wires could have been reversed during maintenance by a previous owner, but if that's not what happened, I'm afraid that if I swap them, it might break the computer or variometer.
>
> Again, sorry for the lack of specifics -- I will try to post them later. But for now, has anybody heard of this error before, or do you have any suggestions?

--
Dan, 5J

[JoeManji]

I don't believe it's a cruise/climb thing. It's definitely possible since the manual for the computer is all in german lol. But I tried flipping every switch and spinning every dial while in flight, and none corrected the direction of the needle. Some settings seemed to change a multipluer, making it seem to read a stronger/weaker climb, but none changed the direction.

[Tony[_5_]]

When i first got the Cherokee it had an old Crossfell electric vario that ran on 3 or 4 D Cell batteries. It exhibited the same behavior which i attributed to crossed wires. I actually got pretty good at climbing when the needle was pointing down.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Turn the meter over.

:-)

Steve Leonard

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:19:16 AM UTC-7, JoeManji wrote:
> I have an issue with the electric variometer in my Libelle. I believe it is a Winter -- I will look up the exact model when I get a chance to visit the gliderport again, but for now, I was wondering if anyone has some idea what might be going wrong.
>
> The following description has been confirmed by referencing my altimeter over time during climbs/descents and my mechanical variometer that is working correctly.
>
> When I am climbing, I get "climbing" tones that have a higher pitch the faster I climb, but the variometer needle is pointing down. When I am descending, I get the slow, low-pitch "descending" tones, but the needle is pointing up. The proportions seem correct, but the needle is pointing in the opposite direction.
>
> My thoughts are that the computer is pushing out correct data, considering that the tones are correct, but it is somehow reversed going to the needle. I wonder if the two wires could have been reversed during maintenance by a previous owner, but if that's not what happened, I'm afraid that if I swap them, it might break the computer or variometer.
>
> Again, sorry for the lack of specifics -- I will try to post them later. But for now, has anybody heard of this error before, or do you have any suggestions?

Joe
Give Up and buy a LXNav S3 You'll be so glad you did- and not very expensive.
Ask Santa for One I think he keeps them in stock -You need a TE Probe thou, do you have one to connect to it?
Merry Christmas

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 10:06:25 AM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 9:19:16 AM UTC-7, JoeManji wrote:
> > I have an issue with the electric variometer in my Libelle. I believe it is a Winter -- I will look up the exact model when I get a chance to visit the gliderport again, but for now, I was wondering if anyone has some idea what might be going wrong.
> >
> > The following description has been confirmed by referencing my altimeter over time during climbs/descents and my mechanical variometer that is working correctly.
> >
> > When I am climbing, I get "climbing" tones that have a higher pitch the faster I climb, but the variometer needle is pointing down. When I am descending, I get the slow, low-pitch "descending" tones, but the needle is pointing up. The proportions seem correct, but the needle is pointing in the opposite direction.
> >
> > My thoughts are that the computer is pushing out correct data, considering that the tones are correct, but it is somehow reversed going to the needle. I wonder if the two wires could have been reversed during maintenance by a previous owner, but if that's not what happened, I'm afraid that if I swap them, it might break the computer or variometer.
> >
> > Again, sorry for the lack of specifics -- I will try to post them later.. But for now, has anybody heard of this error before, or do you have any suggestions?
>
> Joe
> Give Up and buy a LXNav S3 You'll be so glad you did- and not very expensive.
> Ask Santa for One I think he keeps them in stock -You need a TE Probe thou, do you have one to connect to it?
> Merry Christmas

I have the S3 as my 3rd vario, it is a great vario. But do consider getting the UPS battery pack sold as an accessary, provides 8 hours of operation with audio if you loss ship's batteries .

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:37 PM:
> I have the S3 as my 3rd vario, it is a great vario. But do consider getting the UPS battery pack sold as an accessary, provides 8 hours of operation with audio if you loss ship's batteries .
>
How do you use 3 varios? Are the audio's going on all of them? Which one do you
believe?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 11:19:16 AM UTC-5, JoeManji wrote:
> I have an issue with the electric variometer in my Libelle. I believe it is a Winter -- I will look up the exact model when I get a chance to visit the gliderport again, but for now, I was wondering if anyone has some idea what might be going wrong.
>
> The following description has been confirmed by referencing my altimeter over time during climbs/descents and my mechanical variometer that is working correctly.
>
> When I am climbing, I get "climbing" tones that have a higher pitch the faster I climb, but the variometer needle is pointing down. When I am descending, I get the slow, low-pitch "descending" tones, but the needle is pointing up. The proportions seem correct, but the needle is pointing in the opposite direction.
>
> My thoughts are that the computer is pushing out correct data, considering that the tones are correct, but it is somehow reversed going to the needle. I wonder if the two wires could have been reversed during maintenance by a previous owner, but if that's not what happened, I'm afraid that if I swap them, it might break the computer or variometer.
>
> Again, sorry for the lack of specifics -- I will try to post them later. But for now, has anybody heard of this error before, or do you have any suggestions?

You must have more than one variometer in the glider. As far as I'm aware, Winter variometers are all mechanical instruments. If your Winter vario operates in reverse it would be due to plumbing in the back being connected in reverse. This is easily checked by confirming that the tubes are correctly connected. To do this squeeze the tube coming from the capacity flask and watch the needle. If it goes up when you squeeze it is correct.
Does your other variometer read correctly?
UH

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:22:26 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:37 PM:
> > I have the S3 as my 3rd vario, it is a great vario. But do consider getting the UPS battery pack sold as an accessary, provides 8 hours of operation with audio if you loss ship's batteries .
> >
> How do you use 3 varios? Are the audio's going on all of them? Which one do you
> believe?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

3 varios is better than 2, since you can decide by majority vote, no ties :-)

[JoeManji]

I could be wrong, but I thought it only had two electrical wires attached to it when I looked behind the instrument panel. I didn't completely remove it though, so it is possible there was a pneumatic tube hiding back there as well. I will check that next time I visit the glider!

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 1:22:26 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:37 PM:
> > I have the S3 as my 3rd vario, it is a great vario. But do consider getting the UPS battery pack sold as an accessary, provides 8 hours of operation with audio if you loss ship's batteries .
> >
> How do you use 3 varios? Are the audio's going on all of them? Which one do you
> believe?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

It is next to cup holder, didn't you get one in your glider?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 1:22:26 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 12/19/2019 12:37 PM:
> > I have the S3 as my 3rd vario, it is a great vario. But do consider getting the UPS battery pack sold as an accessary, provides 8 hours of operation with audio if you loss ship's batteries .
> >
> How do you use 3 varios? Are the audio's going on all of them? Which one do you
> believe?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

If is is very gusty I switch audio to the Butterfly and I believe the blue dot, for normal soaring it is V80 saved with 9070, and on those days when the clouds are lying, and I can't seem to believe the varios I turn up the volume on the S3 and that that has never failed to work when nothing else does. Plus it literally would not fail when everything else does as it has an independent battery or ship power. I do like 2G's panel but I up set mine up to work if I lose the main bus, get to airport without batteries... Steam gauge ASI, and ALT.

[AS]

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 11:50:58 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Turn the meter over.
>
> :-)
>
> Steve Leonard

Fly inverted! ;-)

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

I’d look for a restrictor in your pneumatic lines, they were used to slow down overactive various back in the day before we got good total energy probes. Another issue could be 3 various sharing one total energy input, a slight decrease in pressure seen in the first vario can cause a slight flow from the other various, in the opposite direction. Add a restrictor to this mess and you can get trapped pressures in the system. No more than 2 various should be sharing your total energy probe. I fly with a fairly fast electric vario with audio and a slow second vario, don’t feel I need any more.
Hope this helps,
JJ

[Per Carlin]

Is the variometer integrated with the Computer or is it separate and connetced via a wire?

My old Zander SR940 had an separate Guage for the variometer and it was possible to reverse the polarity in the electrical wiring. That would result in the behavior you describe.

[Charlie Quebec]

If it’s a Winter, it’s mechanical not electric. You have the TE and flask the wrong way around, don’t ask how I know...... :)

[JoeManji]

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 4:58:53 PM UTC-5, Per Carlin wrote:
> Is the variometer integrated with the Computer or is it separate and connetced via a wire?
>
> My old Zander SR940 had an separate Guage for the variometer and it was possible to reverse the polarity in the electrical wiring. That would result in the behavior you describe.

It is separate and from what I could see, it was connected by two electrical wires. These wires also seemed to have been (poorly) reconnected at some point by twisting the wires together and using electrical tape, so the reversed polarity seems very likely to me, especially after reading your post.

I'm still unsure of the vario model, but I confirmed the computer is a Zander SR 800. I think I will try swapping those two wires next chance I get (and soldering them properly while I'm at it).

[JoeManji]

Unfortunately, it seems I can't edit my original post, but since I've been corrected, I will say I was clearly mistaken -- it's definitely not a Winter vario; it is an electrical one connected to the computer.

Thank you all for your input so far -- I'll update once I get a chance to work on it again!