Power Commercial to Glider Commercial

[Mitty]

I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5 solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA

[soarski]

Guess you did not read the whole story......
it says 3 h of flight instruction with an instuctor, and they mention
OR 10 Training Flights with an instructor.....

Which I would say should be INCLUDING, since in good
Soaring conditions the 3 hrs could be done in one flight.
On the other hand, a good instructor would not let you solo until you
learnt good aproaches and landings, not to mention aero tow practice,
which might take up all of the 3 hrs.

Among other items, the 5 solo flights are for demonstrating, that you
actually learnt how to SOAR, meaning that you can stay up for a while!
Which was not required before....years back. Then you might be ready
for your 20 flights, which could be done in the pattern.(short) which
I would not recomend.

This is how I interpret 61.129 f

AND This would be for an applicant who is testpilot material.
You know yourself that different people have different talents and
learning curves.

[Mitty]

On 3/13/05 10:12 AM, soarski wrote the following:
> Guess you did not read the whole story......
> it says 3 h of flight instruction with an instuctor, and they mention
> OR 10 Training Flights with an instructor.....
>
That's not the part that is unclear. That's why I didn't mention it. The
question is whether I need 20 solo flights in order to have 20 flights as PIC.
Which it appears that I do.

[soarski]

Good boy........Or Girl?

Before you can be a PIC, you have to learn how to fly the aircraft.
You know how to fly an airplane, but not the aircraft that is called a
glider..........It is a different animal! Take your first lesson!

[BTIZ]

As I see it, and I'm not the final authority.. only a CFIG with a few other
power ratings thrown in:

(2) 200 hours of flight time as a pilot in heavier-than-air aircraft and at
least 20 flights in a glider as pilot in command, including at least-

(i) 3 hours of flight training in a glider or 10 training flights in a
glider with an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(6) of this part including at least 3 training flights in a glider
with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within
the 60-day period preceding the date of the test; and

(ii) 5 solo flights in a glider on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(6) of this part.

Moving from Commercial Power to Commercial Glider, you need 200hrs power AND
20 flights as Glider PIC. You are correct, you cannot log PIC while taking
dual instruction. IF you had a private glider rating, then you could log PIC
and DUAL received at the same time. If you have prior Pvt Glider experience,
the 20 PIC flight would not be an issue.

So, once you have solo'd, you need 20 PIC (solo) flights, and 5 of those
should be logged as preparation IAW 61.127(b)(6).

Also, 3 of 10 of your instruction flights have to be within the last 60 days
prior to check ride and logged as prep flights.

I've found by experience, that depending on the past experience of the
candidate, that at least 20 dual flights are need in a Grob 103 just to
complete the required training events and get the landing "down pat" to solo
standards. Pilots that have only flown jets have the hardest time. Propeller
pilots with tail wheel time have the easiest transition.

BT

"Mitty" > wrote in message
...
> I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been
> in a glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience
> even though I'll never fly one for hire.
>
> So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>
> "20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"
>
> But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not
> rated in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?
>
> (The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5
> solo flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating
> and then took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>
> TIA

[Nyal Williams]

I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
add a commercial rating right off the bat?

I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
and get some <experience> before adding the glider commercial.
> Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
the effort.


At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
>I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
>summer. Never been in a
>glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
>experience even though
>I'll never fly one for hire.
>
>So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>
>'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'
>
>But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
>since I'm not rated
>in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
>flights. Right?
>
>(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
>as PIC and but only 5 solo
>flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
>glider rating and then
>took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>
>TIA
>

[Bill Daniels]

"Mitty" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On 3/13/05 10:12 AM, soarski wrote the following:
> > Guess you did not read the whole story......
> > it says 3 h of flight instruction with an instuctor, and they mention
> > OR 10 Training Flights with an instructor.....
> >
> That's not the part that is unclear. That's why I didn't mention it. The
> question is whether I need 20 solo flights in order to have 20 flights as
PIC.
> Which it appears that I do.

As an instructor at a commercial glider operation, I think that you, like
most powered aircraft transition pilots, may be underestimating how
difficult this transition is. Today's SEL training programs place little
emphasis on basic airmanship, concentrating instead on things like
instrument flying and radio procedures. While difficult, a glider
transition is a tremendous amount of fun and it WILL make you a better
pilot.

Flying a glider requires a very high level of pure "stick and rudder"
airmanship. I bet the first time you take the controls of a glider you are
going to feel like a pre-solo student. The coordination standards are so
tight that a slip or skid that wouldn't even register on a ball will put our
yaw strings 30 degrees out of line - I want it dead center. That's only one
thing of many that soarski is referring to.

Go start your lessons. You'll be amazed at what you learn.

Bill Daniels

[Mitty]

On 3/13/05 10:55 AM, BTIZ wrote the following:
>
> Moving from Commercial Power to Commercial Glider, you need 200hrs power AND
> 20 flights as Glider PIC. You are correct, you cannot log PIC while taking
> dual instruction. IF you had a private glider rating, then you could log PIC
> and DUAL received at the same time. If you have prior Pvt Glider experience,
> the 20 PIC flight would not be an issue.
>
> So, once you have solo'd, you need 20 PIC (solo) flights, and 5 of those
> should be logged as preparation IAW 61.127(b)(6).
>
OK, that's what I thought. It must be very unusual for someone to have the 20
PIC flights with a much smaller number of solos.

>
> I've found by experience, that depending on the past experience of the
> candidate, that at least 20 dual flights are need in a Grob 103 just to
> complete the required training events and get the landing "down pat" to solo
> standards. Pilots that have only flown jets have the hardest time. Propeller
> pilots with tail wheel time have the easiest transition.
>
Piper driver here. & I'm not planning to set any speed records on the training.
Whatever it takes, it takes.

Thanks for the confirmation on my FAR-ology.

[Terry]

Mitty wrote:
>> But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since
I'm not rated
> in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?
>
================================================== ==============================

That's right and the fixed part of the training. As mentioned by
others, the variable is the time to solo.

At the commercial operation where I teach/check, we have many visitors
that complete their training in a few days. A few solo in a handful of
flights, but the average will be in the 15-20 range assuming the use of
the Schweizer 2-33. The Grob 103 will take longer since its
characteristics are less forgiving.

Working hard and with cooperative weather, you have a good chance to
finish the rating in 5 days. Four for training and a checkride on the
fifth. This assumes that you solo early on the second day, complete
the solos on the third or early on the fourth, with the balance of the
fourth day in checkride prep.

If you are a competent stick and rudder pilot and not a slave to GeePS
wizz stuff, this is a very realistic shedule. You need to ensure that
there are gliders, tows, instructors, and finally an examiner available
to complete within your schedule.

Good luck with your plan.

Terry Claussen
Estrella

[BTIZ]

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
>I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
> Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
> to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
> add a commercial rating right off the bat?
>

A glider add on rating counts as a BFR.. is your going to do it, and already
hold a commercial rating.. the difference between the Commercial and Pvt on
the check ride is the prep time.. the PTS is practically identical...

Why not add a rating for a BFR... Seaplane? Glider?

BT

[[email protected]]

Nyal,
I was a commercial power pilot(actually ATP) when I went for a
glider rating several years ago. I asked if I should go for a private
or commercial. I was told in no uncertain terms that I should go for a
commercial. Why? Only 10 more solo flights with slightly more rigid
standards. The savings? Extra checkride.
It makes NO sense for a commercial anything to add just a private.
For gliders, the 10 extra solo flights is a no-brainer.

Dean Chantiles

[Mark James Boyd]

Mitty,

Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:

Solo
If you are rated or have privileges

Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.

Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.

If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
quite helpful.

We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
privilege add-on and now he can log his further
instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
which he is pursuing.

In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.

Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
hurt anything.

*****screwy obscure stuff follows************

And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
(like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
aeronautical experience.

***********useless history of PIC follows***********

Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
PIC.

You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.

You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
Again this was changed in the 2005 version.

These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.

All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
along with the addition of SP.


In article >,
Mitty > wrote:
>I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been in a
>glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even though
>I'll never fly one for hire.
>
>So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>
>"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"
>
>But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not rated
>in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?
>
>(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5 solo
>flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and then
>took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>
>TIA


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article . com>,
soarski > wrote:
>
>Among other items, the 5 solo flights are for demonstrating, that you
>actually learnt how to SOAR, meaning that you can stay up for a while!
>Which was not required before....years back.

I haven't seen any requirement that soaring MUST be accomplished
during any part of the training or testing for a glider license.
Everything I have read, including the PTS, makes allowance for
doing this training with no soaring weather available whatsoever.

IF soaring weather is available, then soaring is demonstrated,
but if it isn't as far as I can tell this is no barrier to
completing training and license.

>Then you might be ready
>for your 20 flights, which could be done in the pattern.(short) which
>I would not recomend.

Clearly if there is soaring weather, pattern tows are a
missed opportunity. Agreed, just doing patterns isn't the
best way to learn anything except...patterns.

But if the FAA had wanted hours of PIC, they would have
put that in there. It isn't there.

>AND This would be for an applicant who is testpilot material.
>You know yourself that different people have different talents and
>learning curves.

Agreed. Very different.

I have had one pilot (an ATP who was testpilot material) do everything
perfectly, including tow, on the very first flight in a glider.
Out of maybe 50 first flights in gliders, this was the only time
this ever happened. But I have seen (and been) students with
the minimums show proficiency, complete a checkride successfully,
and continue on to fly safely.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Mitty > wrote:
>
>
>On 3/13/05 10:12 AM, soarski wrote the following:
>> Guess you did not read the whole story......
>> it says 3 h of flight instruction with an instuctor, and they mention
>> OR 10 Training Flights with an instructor.....
>>
>That's not the part that is unclear. That's why I didn't mention it. The
>question is whether I need 20 solo flights in order to have 20 flights as PIC.
>Which it appears that I do.

Solo is by far the most clear and accepted way to log PIC.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

Nyal,

He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't need
to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting the extra
10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.

There's just no compelling reason to get a Private instead of
a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for gliders
anyway).

In article >,
Nyal Williams > wrote:
>I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
>Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
>to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
>add a commercial rating right off the bat?
>
>I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
>and get some <experience> before adding the glider commercial.
>> Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
>you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
>the effort.
>
>
>At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
>>I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
>>summer. Never been in a
>>glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
>>experience even though
>>I'll never fly one for hire.
>>
>>So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>>
>>'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'
>>
>>But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
>>since I'm not rated
>>in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
>>flights. Right?
>>
>>(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
>>as PIC and but only 5 solo
>>flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
>>glider rating and then
>>took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>>
>>TIA
>>
>
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

In article om>,
Terry > wrote:
>
>At the commercial operation where I teach/check, we have many visitors
>that complete their training in a few days. A few solo in a handful of
>flights, but the average will be in the 15-20 range assuming the use of
>the Schweizer 2-33. The Grob 103 will take longer since its
>characteristics are less forgiving.

Same here. Pretty typical solo 4-10 flights for those
who are already airplane pilots. 15-30 for those who've never flown
anything before.

>If you are a competent stick and rudder pilot and not a slave to GeePS
>wizz stuff,

ROFL. Twin Garmin 100s, fuel totalizer, blah blah. I got
to watch a guy last night playing with toys, and missread back
frequency changes for ATC. Sigh...no need for ME to create a
realistic inflight distraction...

>this is a very realistic shedule. You need to ensure that
>there are gliders, tows, instructors, and finally an examiner available
>to complete within your schedule.

1) Airworthy glider,
2) student,
3) CFI,
4) towpilot,
5) airworthy towplane,
6) good weather,
7) DPE

It's hard to get all 7 together. I've found that the best bet is
to train and test in lousy or marginal soaring weather. Less
competition for resources. Also, scratching for weak lift
is really fun!

Or you can just go somewhere that is set up ideally for this kind of
concentrated training. Isn't there somewhere like that
just south of Pheonix, AZ? Southwest has cheap flights in and out of
PHX, right? ;P

>
>Good luck with your plan.
>
>Terry Claussen
>Estrella
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Nyal Williams]

Mark,

I have had a conversation with just such a transition
pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
also say lack of experience. I don't think a person
is well served by giving him a commercial rating when
he hasn't flown a full season's weather. Both he and
the public will expect too much of him. In case of
any sort of mishap, the FAA will be much harder on
him with the commercial than with the private ticket.


At 18:30 14 March 2005, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>Nyal,
>
> He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't
>need
>to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting
>the extra
>10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.
>
>There's just no compelling reason to get a Private
>instead of
>a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
>experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for
>gliders
>anyway).
>
>In article ,
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>>I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
>>Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
>>to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
>>add a commercial rating right off the bat?
>>
>>I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
>>and get some before adding the glider commercial.
>>> Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
>>you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
>>the effort.
>>
>>
>>At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
>>>I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
>>>summer. Never been in a
>>>glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
>>>experience even though
>>>I'll never fly one for hire.
>>>
>>>So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>>>
>>>'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'
>>>
>>>But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
>>>since I'm not rated
>>>in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
>>>flights. Right?
>>>
>>>(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
>>>as PIC and but only 5 solo
>>>flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
>>>glider rating and then
>>>took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>>>
>>>TIA
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>
>------------+
>Mark J. Boyd
>

[Tony Verhulst]

Nyal Williams wrote:

> I have had a conversation with just such a transition
> pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
> When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
> was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
> can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
> also say lack of experience.

Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
glider pilot yet. Your example is a case in point, IMHO. A few years
ago, here in the north east US, a highly experienced power pilot and
newly minted glider instructor, experienced an off field landing during
a local instructional flight. The cause was attributed to the topic at hand.

Tony V.

[Stefan]

Tony Verhulst wrote:

> Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
> you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
> meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
> glider pilot yet.

We can argue whether cross country skills should be required to get a
glider licence. (It is in Europe.) But I won't argue that a glider
*instructor* without thorough cross country skills is a joke. A blind
teaching the blind.

Stefan

[Bob Korves]

I guess I have been confused all these years. I thought the goal of flying
was to have fun, not to gather ratings... 8^)
-Bob Korves

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:4235d0d8$1@darkstar...
> Mitty,
>
> Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
> there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:
>
> Solo
> If you are rated or have privileges
>
> Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
> if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
> is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
> almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
> glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.
>
> Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
> in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
> flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.
>
> If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
> SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
> flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
> quite helpful.
>
> We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
> rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
> and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
> privilege add-on and now he can log his further
> instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
> which he is pursuing.
>
> In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
> anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
> have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
> and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
> the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.
>
> Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
> signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
> hurt anything.
>
> *****screwy obscure stuff follows************
>
> And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
> an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
> an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
> you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
> you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
> (like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
> in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
> have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
> ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
> and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
> aeronautical experience.
>
> ***********useless history of PIC follows***********
>
> Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
> PIC.
>
> You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
> passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
> fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
> ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
> new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.
>
> You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
> manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
> Again this was changed in the 2005 version.
>
> These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
> inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
> locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.
>
> All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
> got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
> PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
> along with the addition of SP.
>
>
> In article >,
> Mitty > wrote:
> >I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been
in a
> >glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even
though
> >I'll never fly one for hire.
> >
> >So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
> >
> >"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"
> >
> >But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not
rated
> >in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?
> >
> >(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5
solo
> >flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and
then
> >took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
> >
> >TIA
>
>
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

It's a lot harder to have fun without any insurance.
The insurers give significantly better rates for commercial
ratings vs. solo or private. And they won't insure pilots
(even those with ASEL commercial, or even ATP) who just
have glider solo for some aircraft.

I do almost all of my work for the insurance companies.
10 hours of dual for this or that to become insurable.
I also get business from pilots who want to really
SSSTTTRRREETTCCCHHH their capabilities, without
reducing safety. Currency stuff and specialized stuff.

Glider cross-country is an example. Instructors like me
get pilots into stretching their legs on cross-countries.
The badge stuff helps, as does talks on the patio.
But the poster asked about getting a commercial rating, not what to
do with it, or whether he could have fun without it, so I
answered that question.

Absolutely it's about fun, though. And there really isn't much fun
in 20 pattern tows. So I'd hope the original poster would
have a bit of fun scratching lift or even soaring at a
great location.

One guy did his very first flight recently, for 3 hours
with a CFIG. He was definitely more hooked by that than
a sled ride :)

And he got better training too, no argument there...

In article >,
Bob Korves <bkorves@winfirstDECIMALcom> wrote:
>I guess I have been confused all these years. I thought the goal of flying
>was to have fun, not to gather ratings... 8^)
>-Bob Korves
>
>"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
>news:4235d0d8$1@darkstar...
>> Mitty,
>>
>> Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
>> there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:
>>
>> Solo
>> If you are rated or have privileges
>>
>> Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
>> if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
>> is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
>> almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
>> glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.
>>
>> Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
>> in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
>> flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.
>>
>> If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
>> SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
>> flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
>> quite helpful.
>>
>> We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
>> rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
>> and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
>> privilege add-on and now he can log his further
>> instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
>> which he is pursuing.
>>
>> In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
>> anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
>> have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
>> and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
>> the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.
>>
>> Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
>> signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
>> hurt anything.
>>
>> *****screwy obscure stuff follows************
>>
>> And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
>> an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
>> an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
>> you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
>> you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
>> (like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
>> in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
>> have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
>> ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
>> and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
>> aeronautical experience.
>>
>> ***********useless history of PIC follows***********
>>
>> Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
>> PIC.
>>
>> You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
>> passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
>> fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
>> ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
>> new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.
>>
>> You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
>> manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
>> Again this was changed in the 2005 version.
>>
>> These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
>> inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
>> locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.
>>
>> All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
>> got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
>> PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
>> along with the addition of SP.
>>
>>
>> In article >,
>> Mitty > wrote:
>> >I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been
>in a
>> >glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even
>though
>> >I'll never fly one for hire.
>> >
>> >So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>> >
>> >"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"
>> >
>> >But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not
>rated
>> >in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?
>> >
>> >(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5
>solo
>> >flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and
>then
>> >took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>> >
>> >TIA
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ------------+
>> Mark J. Boyd
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

There is a big difference between getting a commercial rating
and enforcing good judgement.

What you say is equally true about a very experienced commercial
glider pilot who has never flown wave or used oxygen in the Sierras.
So what? He's certainly legal to do so, but one expects the pilot
to recognise his personal limitations.

Same for medicals, currency, etc. The public is very well served by
a pilot with a commercial rating (or any rating or privilege, for
that matter) who flies safely, with accurate self-assessment.

In article >,
Nyal Williams > wrote:
>Mark,
>
>I have had a conversation with just such a transition
>pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
> When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
>was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
>can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
>also say lack of experience.

Agreed.

>I don't think a person
>is well served by giving him a commercial rating when
>he hasn't flown a full season's weather.

I believe this depends on the location. Beyond that,
getting experience and judgement required to fly safely in
any given weather or location (which may be different from
training) is a pilot responsibility, not an instructor responsibility.
I don't require my students to fly in wave before I sign them
off for a rating. I expect them and teach them to
get dual in wave before flying it, however. The regs
allow this, and I believe this is right. Are you
suggesting a "wave" endorsement, or a "season" endorsement
or regulatory requirement?

I do agree that the person is better served by flying for a whole
season's weather, and knowing the area, and becoming accustomed to
passenger for hire flights locally before giving more
"interesting" flights. And certainly acro training or X-C training
and experience before doing these things for hire. But
this is a call I give to the pilots, who I expect to use good
judgement.

>Both he and
>the public will expect too much of him. In case of
>any sort of mishap, the FAA will be much harder on
>him with the commercial than with the private ticket.

Only if he is exercising the commercial privilege.
If he enjoys the insurance being lower, but does no
flying for hire, I wouldn't expect any greater enforcement action
than for a private (at least I'm not aware of this
happening in the past).

>
>
>At 18:30 14 March 2005, Mark James Boyd wrote:
>>Nyal,
>>
>> He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't
>>need
>>to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting
>>the extra
>>10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.
>>
>>There's just no compelling reason to get a Private
>>instead of
>>a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
>>experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for
>>gliders
>>anyway).
>>
>>In article ,
>>Nyal Williams wrote:
>>>I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
>>>Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
>>>to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
>>>add a commercial rating right off the bat?
>>>
>>>I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
>>>and get some before adding the glider commercial.
>>>> Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
>>>you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
>>>the effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
>>>>I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
>>>>summer. Never been in a
>>>>glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
>>>>experience even though
>>>>I'll never fly one for hire.
>>>>
>>>>So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>>>>
>>>>'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'
>>>>
>>>>But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
>>>>since I'm not rated
>>>>in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
>>>>flights. Right?
>>>>
>>>>(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
>>>>as PIC and but only 5 solo
>>>>flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
>>>>glider rating and then
>>>>took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>>>>
>>>>TIA
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>------------+
>>Mark J. Boyd
>>
>
>
>


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Mark James Boyd]

I've heard of a very experienced glider pilot
made an off-field landing during a local instructional flight
for the very same (wind) reason.

One thing you all seem to have missed is that in the past
5 years of the several dozen fatal glider accidents, not a SINGLE one
was a student pilot. In my opinion, the
recent trainees are the MOST careful, because they have
less complacency.

The glider pilots I know who are recent ratings exercise
quite good and conservative judgement. I would expect the poster
to get his commercial glider rating, and then only use the
commercial privileges quite responsibly.

In article >,
Tony Verhulst > wrote:
>Nyal Williams wrote:
>
>> I have had a conversation with just such a transition
>> pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
>> When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
>> was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
>> can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
>> also say lack of experience.
>
>Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
>you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
>meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
>glider pilot yet. Your example is a case in point, IMHO. A few years
>ago, here in the north east US, a highly experienced power pilot and
>newly minted glider instructor, experienced an off field landing during
>a local instructional flight. The cause was attributed to the topic at hand.
>
>Tony V.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Bob Korves]

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:42366195$1@darkstar...
(snip)
> Absolutely it's about fun, though. And there really isn't much fun
> in 20 pattern tows. So I'd hope the original poster would
> have a bit of fun scratching lift or even soaring at a
> great location.
>
(big snip)

Agreed, Mark,
My point was that soaring is a journey more than a destination. Enjoy the
ride! Rather than trying to get those 20 flights "out of the way", instead
savor them, revel in the new experiences. New ratings are certainly OK, if
one needs or wants them, but they aren't what Orville and Wilbur or DaVinci
or most of us were dreaming about when we got into flying.

I got a new tow pilot endorsement last weekend, on my private license. I
couldn't care less that I will never make money at towing. I get to help
the club, to help my fellow glider pilots get into the air, and, most of
all, get to learn a bunch of new skills. I now have a whole new viewpoint
on soaring that I had missed all these years. A new aircraft model has
shown me a glimpse of her personality, and we are now tentative and aloof
partners. Logbook sign-off? Oh yeah, I guess I need that for the FAA and
the insurance.

I understand that you are a professional pilot and naturally plan to make
some money at flying. That is wonderful. Just don't ever let the trappings
take away the pure joy of flight...
-Bob Korves

[m pautz]

Mitty wrote:

> I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never
> been in a glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
> experience even though I'll never fly one for hire.
>
> So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2
>
> "20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"
>
> But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm
> not rated in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights.
> Right?
>
> (The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only
> 5 solo flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider
> rating and then took dual for the Commercial. Right?)
>
> TIA

The 5 flights can be part of the 20, but those 5 have to involve
practicing 61.127(b)(6). So make sure that you make a notation in your
log book that you had practiced 61.127(b)(6) for at least 5 of those 20
flights.