Mountain High EDS O2 system battery

[Bill Daniels]

I have an EDS on order and have been reading the manual available from their
web site. It says "USE 9V ALKALINE BATTERY ONLY" in caps for emphasis.
They then go on to say that you can also use and external battery of any
type you choose.

OK, so what would be wrong with using a 9V lithium smoke detector battery
that lasts 5 times longer than an alkaline? I use one of these as a backup
on my Borgelt B40 and I've never had to replace it.

Yep, I'm gonna ask Mountain High too.

Bill Daniels

[Marc Ramsey]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> OK, so what would be wrong with using a 9V lithium smoke detector battery
> that lasts 5 times longer than an alkaline? I use one of these as a backup
> on my Borgelt B40 and I've never had to replace it.

The EDS likely has an internal power supervisor which is monitoring the
battery voltage, and triggers an alarm when the amount of remaining run
time drops below a threshold. The discharge profile for lithium
batteries is different from alkaline, the alarm may be triggered too
early, or too late...

Marc

[Bela]

Bill,
a standard alkaline lasts me about one year.
I have a hard time remembering to replace it annually... 5 years is
too long....
Bela

[Bill Daniels]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
om...
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > OK, so what would be wrong with using a 9V lithium smoke detector
battery
> > that lasts 5 times longer than an alkaline? I use one of these as a
backup
> > on my Borgelt B40 and I've never had to replace it.
>
> The EDS likely has an internal power supervisor which is monitoring the
> battery voltage, and triggers an alarm when the amount of remaining run
> time drops below a threshold. The discharge profile for lithium
> batteries is different from alkaline, the alarm may be triggered too
> early, or too late...
>
> Marc

Good observation. Here's a bit of further research.

When I normalize and replot the discharge data as voltage vs. % life instead
of V vs. hours, the shape of the discharge curve of lithium seems to be
identical to alkaline.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
_
Mountain High says this about the Low Battery Warning:

The EDS model D-1 unit continuously monitors the condition of the battery
during operation. The unit flashes the red LED once every two seconds to
warn that the battery has dropped to about 6 volts. The unit will, however,
continue to operate properly for about four (4) hours @ 25° C after the
indicator starts to flash. It will flash the red LED once per second to warn
that the battery has dropped to about 5
volts and should then be replaced ASAP. The EDS model D1 will operate for 60
to 80 hours with a fresh alkaline battery under normal operation. However,
because a very small amount of current (»1 µa.) is drawn by the unit while
turned off, the battery life is about 4 to 6 months. Therefore, during long
term storage the battery should be removed. Once the battery drops below 5
volts the unit will stop
operating and the red LED will remain on.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
__

Of course this suggests the low-voltage warning will come on with 4 - 5
times as much life remaining in a lithium 9V but that's not necessarily a
bad thing. If the warning came on one hour after launching for a 1000k
attempt, I might feel comfortable continuing the flight with lithium but not
with alkaline.

The above EDS alkaline battery life data is not especially comforting. A 4
hour margin after the low battery warning could cut short a long flight.
(If you even noticed the blinking red LED) If the alkaline battery is cold,
the margin could be even less. Lithium batteries are advertised to have
greater cold performance compared to alkaline.

At $6 for a lithium 9V vs. $2.50 for alkaline, lithium seems to be a really
good buy for any device that uses a standard 9V battery. The EDS manual
warns to be very careful with the battery wires when changing the battery so
doing so less often seems like a good idea too.

As for the idea that lithium batteries catch fire; if that were true, it
would be absurd in the extreme to use one in a smoke detector, yet that's
both the government and industry recommendation. The manufacturer's data
says that in the case of a dead short the battery will not exceed 90C. I
assume these 9V lithium's are not especially prone to catch fire.

Bill Daniels

[keithw]

Is there any documented discharge curve for these styles of batteries at
sub zero temps ? ....(eg) high altitude wave flight


--
keithw
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[Bill Daniels]

"keithw" > wrote in message
...
>
> Is there any documented discharge curve for these styles of batteries at
> sub zero temps ? ....(eg) high altitude wave flight
>
Take a look at:
http://www.ulbi.com/techsheets/UBI-3001_U9VL.pdf

Bill Daniels

[Go]

I have used the EDS for five years now and only replace the battery
every season with a lot of (sorry I have no specific number of hours
operation to relate) flying above 12.5k' out here in the west.

I do keep a 9v battery with electrical tape over the contacts in my
little flight pouch in the cockpit. It is easy to replace in flight.

If it DOES lose power the default is to continuous flow. On one
occasion (this is why I carry a spare) this happened over the White
Mtns. and I actually regulated the airflow by squeezing the tube so as
not to run out of O2 on a fun day.

In my new ship I am connecting the EDS to main power, there is an
external power jack. But still keep a 9V in the unit (isolated) as a
back up. Total power loss, I still have O2 and a vario.

It seems to me this is a good plan. Any better ideas out there?

Go

[COLIN LAMB]

Based upon my experience, lithium batteries has a steeper voltage decrease
curve when the voltage does start to decline than alkaline.

If that is the case, then once the voltage decreased to the voltage required
to set off the low voltage warning, it may have much less time until it is
no longer usable than a standard alkaline battery.

Thus, the warning time may be less for a lithium battery than the alkaline.

Also, I have learned another lesson about lithium batteries. I was
servicing a piece of battery operated equipment. It was off and I checked
the lithium battery and it measured about 9 volts. I then proceeded to
waste a half hour looking for other problems and decided to install another
battery. Presto, it worked fine. Then I noted that a depleted lithium
battery will measure almost full voltage when there is no load. Under a
slight load, it dropped down to 3 volts.

Alkalines are very good about measuring voltage, even without a load.

Always measure the voltage of the lithium battery under the intended load.

Colin N12HS

[Mal.com]

From my personal observation at FL235 and the temperature minus 26C the unit
slowed down and then failed I put the EDS onto emergency supply.

Note the steep descent after this moment LOL
http://www.mals.net/bunyan04/pages/Picture%20001.htm

In future if I go above FL180 I will have a spare battery and a battery
inside my clothing (32C degrees is about optimum battery operation body temp
is 36C) with wires and connectors coming out to connect to the EDS unit.

I will also carry a spare or emergency oxygen system.

As simply having the battery in the pocket of the glider exposes the battery
to the cold temperatures so its just as useless.

Think of another thing its freezing cold you take your hands out of the
gloves you then have to fumble with the battery and fly the glider.

Remember if you smoke at ground level you are already at 5000FT

The hypoxia curve is worth a study as well.

Is adrenalin part of the discharge curve LOL

> Is there any documented discharge curve for these styles of batteries at
> sub zero temps ? ....(eg) high altitude wave flight
>
>
> --
> keithw
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
> - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they
> fly -
>

[Bill Daniels]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Based upon my experience, lithium batteries has a steeper voltage decrease
> curve when the voltage does start to decline than alkaline.
>
> If that is the case, then once the voltage decreased to the voltage
required
> to set off the low voltage warning, it may have much less time until it is
> no longer usable than a standard alkaline battery.
>
> Thus, the warning time may be less for a lithium battery than the
alkaline.
>
> Also, I have learned another lesson about lithium batteries. I was
> servicing a piece of battery operated equipment. It was off and I checked
> the lithium battery and it measured about 9 volts. I then proceeded to
> waste a half hour looking for other problems and decided to install
another
> battery. Presto, it worked fine. Then I noted that a depleted lithium
> battery will measure almost full voltage when there is no load. Under a
> slight load, it dropped down to 3 volts.
>
> Alkalines are very good about measuring voltage, even without a load.
>
> Always measure the voltage of the lithium battery under the intended load.
>
> Colin N12HS

It's not unusual for any battery chemistry to show a higher voltage when a
discharged cell is tested against a high impedance DVM. That's why all
battery testers check a cell against a load.

Based on interpolation of the Energizer 9V Lithium 5mA discharge data curve,
it appears that the 6 .5V warning flash will begin somewhere after 230 hours
in service and the cutoff at 5V will occur 20 hours later. MH states that
you should expect only 4 hours of alkaline battery life after the low
battery warning flashes start. This strongly suggests that you should
expect 5 times the battery life with a lithium 9V after the warning.

That's not a particularly steep discharge curve. It actually should be
better since MH states that the mean draw of the EDS is 3.5 mA and the
Energizer discharge data is for 5mA draw.

See: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l522.pdf

I think I can live with that. I'll be using a lithium 9V and replace it at
the beginning of each season.

Bill Daniels

[Tim Newport-Peace]

X-no-archive: yes
In article >, Bill Daniels
> writes
>I have an EDS on order and have been reading the manual available from their
>web site. It says "USE 9V ALKALINE BATTERY ONLY" in caps for emphasis.
>They then go on to say that you can also use and external battery of any
>type you choose.
>
>OK, so what would be wrong with using a 9V lithium smoke detector battery
>that lasts 5 times longer than an alkaline? I use one of these as a backup
>on my Borgelt B40 and I've never had to replace it.
>
>Yep, I'm gonna ask Mountain High too.
>
>Bill Daniels
>
This seems to me to be more of a warning not to use Zinc Chloride
batteries as these have a lower capacity and higher internal resistance.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

[Go]

"In future if I go above FL180 I will have a spare battery and a
battery
inside my clothing (32C degrees is about optimum battery operation body
temp
is 36C) with wires and connectors coming out to connect to the EDS
unit.
I will also carry a spare or emergency oxygen system.
As simply having the battery in the pocket of the glider exposes the
battery
to the cold temperatures so its just as useless.
Think of another thing its freezing cold you take your hands out of the

gloves you then have to fumble with the battery and fly the glider."

Point(s) well made.

So far my O2 experience has been up to FL180. Certainly going far above
that brings forth other serious considerations. I have thought I would
install a continuous flow system as a back-up to the EDS if, and when I
decide to fly at those altitudes. Then also a spare/emergency?

Do you have any special considerations for the glider primary batteries
when it gets that cold?

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Daniels wrote:

> __________________________________________________ __________________________
> _
> Mountain High says this about the Low Battery Warning:
>
> The EDS model D-1 unit continuously monitors the condition of the battery
> during operation. The unit flashes the red LED once every two seconds to
> warn that the battery has dropped to about 6 volts. The unit will, however,
> continue to operate properly for about four (4) hours @ 25° C after the
> indicator starts to flash. It will flash the red LED once per second to warn
> that the battery has dropped to about 5
> volts and should then be replaced ASAP. The EDS model D1 will operate for 60
> to 80 hours with a fresh alkaline battery under normal operation. However,
> because a very small amount of current (»1 µa.) is drawn by the unit while
> turned off, the battery life is about 4 to 6 months. Therefore, during long
> term storage the battery should be removed. Once the battery drops below 5
> volts the unit will stop
> operating and the red LED will remain on.
> __________________________________________________ __________________________
> __
>
> Of course this suggests the low-voltage warning will come on with 4 - 5
> times as much life remaining in a lithium 9V but that's not necessarily a
> bad thing. If the warning came on one hour after launching for a 1000k
> attempt, I might feel comfortable continuing the flight with lithium but not
> with alkaline.

My older model EDS has a battery test switch: steady light and sound,
battery OK; pulsing light and sound, only a few hours of life left. How
about the D1? If you test it as part of the pre-flight, you'll be able
to do that 1000K!

>
> The above EDS alkaline battery life data is not especially comforting. A 4
> hour margin after the low battery warning could cut short a long flight.
> (If you even noticed the blinking red LED)

I check it when I check the oxygen level (most of the time).

If the alkaline battery is cold,
> the margin could be even less. Lithium batteries are advertised to have
> greater cold performance compared to alkaline.
>
> At $6 for a lithium 9V vs. $2.50 for alkaline,

You are paying too much for your 9 V alkalines - they are half that at
places like Costco. Haven't seen the lithium units there, unfortunately.

> lithium seems to be a really
> good buy for any device that uses a standard 9V battery.

Until you forget to turn off the EDS, and a week or so later, it's dead.
A good thing for smoke detectors, for sure.

I use two alkaline batteries in my glider: one is in the EDS and serves
as the backup battery; the other (the primary battery) is velcroed to
the side of the unit and is plugged into the external power socket of
the EDS. If the primary, externally mounted battery dies, I just pull
the plug out of the EDS, and it switches to it's fresh internal battery.
It's an idea I got from Pat Martin.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[David R.]

Yep, we had this discussion just the other day and I was starting to think
that I was going to change from my constant flow system to the EDS.

This thread has caused me to decide to keep my current system.

Oxygen is relatively cheap at my field, my bottle is good sized and the
whole battery issue is a non-starter.

Thanks to all for all of your infomation, you saved me several hundred
dollars.

dave r.
"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>I have an EDS on order and have been reading the manual available from
>their
> web site. It says "USE 9V ALKALINE BATTERY ONLY" in caps for emphasis.
> They then go on to say that you can also use and external battery of any
> type you choose.
>
> OK, so what would be wrong with using a 9V lithium smoke detector battery
> that lasts 5 times longer than an alkaline? I use one of these as a
> backup
> on my Borgelt B40 and I've never had to replace it.
>
> Yep, I'm gonna ask Mountain High too.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[bumper]

"Go" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So far my O2 experience has been up to FL180. Certainly going far above
> that brings forth other serious considerations. I have thought I would
> install a continuous flow system as a back-up to the EDS if, and when I
> decide to fly at those altitudes. Then also a spare/emergency?
>
> Do you have any special considerations for the glider primary batteries
> when it gets that cold?
>

I think it depends on how long exposed as well as how cold. The ship's
lead-acid batteries have a fair amount of mass, so internal temperatures
will drop more slowly than some other stuff in the glider. Obviously,
battery location plays a role too, i.e. it's typically warmer in the cockpit
than elsewhere. Since the batteries are discharging and have some internal
resistance, the internal power dissipation also adds warmth. That said,
battery capacity at freezing will be down some 20% or more, and at -22F,
down 50%.

I understand Stemme insulated their battery installation for the wave
flights in S. America several years ago.

bumper
ZZ Minden, NV

[Eric Greenwell]

David R. wrote:

> Yep, we had this discussion just the other day and I was starting to think
> that I was going to change from my constant flow system to the EDS.
>
> This thread has caused me to decide to keep my current system.
>
> Oxygen is relatively cheap at my field, my bottle is good sized and the
> whole battery issue is a non-starter.

There really aren't any battery "issues"; these guys (including me) are
just arguing about the right guilding for the lily. Put the battery in,
turn it on, and use it. The EDS does provide automatic operation and
some audio and visual warnings that a constant flow system doesn't
provide, so it might be safer overall. But since oxygen conservation
isn't of interest to you, I'd say keep your present system and use the
money saved to buy an oximeter so you'll know your system is working for
you.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[bumper]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> David R. wrote:
>

> There really aren't any battery "issues"; these guys (including me) are
> just arguing about the right guilding for the lily. Put the battery in,
> turn it on, and use it. The EDS does provide automatic operation and some
> audio and visual warnings that a constant flow system doesn't provide, so
> it might be safer overall. But since oxygen conservation isn't of interest
> to you, I'd say keep your present system and use the money saved to buy an
> oximeter so you'll know your system is working for you.


I agree with Eric. I use a standard alkaline battery, changed annually, with
never a problem. Besides the automatic features of the EDS (it can be set to
turn on above 10K, automatically adjusts O2 amount with altitude, etc),
there are a few additional subjective advantages.

Unlike the constant flow oximizer system I use in my Mooney, the EDS seems
kinder to mucous membranes, tending not to dry them out so much, and thus is
more comfortable to use. I haven't done a side-by-side comparison with my
oximeter, but I suspect the EDS is also more able to keep O2 saturation
levels in the good range without using prodigious amounts of oxygen,
especially when in the upper teens and above. My EDS is mounted where I
can't see the "idiot lights" but can hear the little "click-hiss" of the O2
pulse, but only when I pay attention to it in order to reassure myself the
system is working properly.

With the typical limited O2 capacity of most gliders, the EDS is almost
indispensable in enabling high altitude flights like Kempton's 1000+ mile
wave flight last year, or for flying multi-day safaris with a self-launch
and no follow-along ground support.

all the best,

bumper

[Bill Daniels]

"David R." > wrote in message
...
> Yep, we had this discussion just the other day and I was starting to think
> that I was going to change from my constant flow system to the EDS.
>
> This thread has caused me to decide to keep my current system.
>
> Oxygen is relatively cheap at my field, my bottle is good sized and the
> whole battery issue is a non-starter.
>
> Thanks to all for all of your infomation, you saved me several hundred
> dollars.
>
> dave r.

I have the same situation. O2 is cheap but refills take time and I have to
do it for each flight. My old system used a demand mask that was
uncomfortable and it depleted the 22 Cu. Ft. bottle in about 4 hours. After
a season, that got old.

The EDS system is simplicity in action. Just put the cannulla on with the
control unit set to start O2 flow at 10k feet and go fly. The O2 supply
will last 34 hours at 18K feet which means that a refill maybe twice a
season. Convenience wise, there's no comparison.

There's also good data that says the pulse demand will get the O2 deeper
into the lungs for better blood O2 saturation. The EDS D1 system is
expensive but it's a damn good system for gliders.

Bill Daniels

[Bob Korves]

A pilot (a top national competitor) told me that he uses the EDS system
because "I turn on my oxygen at the beginning of the flight and don't think
about it again".

Now that really has merit, not to need to be checking a flow meter and
fiddling with the needle valve (or forgetting to).

That said, I am still using the Nelson system, mostly because I can't seem
to talk myself into purchasing something that looks like a $5 transistor
radio for, what, $800+? It even has the transistor radio 9v battery!
Although I have heard nothing but good reports about the EDS, it still looks
cheap to me...
-Bob Korves

"Bill Daniels" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David R." > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yep, we had this discussion just the other day and I was starting to
think
> > that I was going to change from my constant flow system to the EDS.
> >
> > This thread has caused me to decide to keep my current system.
> >
> > Oxygen is relatively cheap at my field, my bottle is good sized and the
> > whole battery issue is a non-starter.
> >
> > Thanks to all for all of your infomation, you saved me several hundred
> > dollars.
> >
> > dave r.
>
> I have the same situation. O2 is cheap but refills take time and I have
to
> do it for each flight. My old system used a demand mask that was
> uncomfortable and it depleted the 22 Cu. Ft. bottle in about 4 hours.
After
> a season, that got old.
>
> The EDS system is simplicity in action. Just put the cannulla on with the
> control unit set to start O2 flow at 10k feet and go fly. The O2 supply
> will last 34 hours at 18K feet which means that a refill maybe twice a
> season. Convenience wise, there's no comparison.
>
> There's also good data that says the pulse demand will get the O2 deeper
> into the lungs for better blood O2 saturation. The EDS D1 system is
> expensive but it's a damn good system for gliders.
>
> Bill Daniels
>

[Nyal Williams]

They are great! I'm not a competitor, and I don't
do much high-altitude flying, but I can report this:
While at altitude it started beeping at me. I checked
the air lines and the battery and all was ok. Turned
out that, when I twisted around to retrieve a water
bottle, I had dislocated the cannula. It slipped sideways
just enough that the right outlet had slipped over
to my left nostril and the one for the left nostril
was hanging in the breeze. I didn't know this. Had
it not beeped for me I might have flown on into oblivion
because I was not getting any oxygen.


At 00:30 16 March 2005, Bob Korves wrote:
>A pilot (a top national competitor) told me that he
>uses the EDS system
>because 'I turn on my oxygen at the beginning of the
>flight and don't think
>about it again'.
>
>Now that really has merit, not to need to be checking
>a flow meter and
>fiddling with the needle valve (or forgetting to).
>
>That said, I am still using the Nelson system, mostly
>because I can't seem
>to talk myself into purchasing something that looks
>like a $5 transistor
>radio for, what, $800+? It even has the transistor
>radio 9v battery!
>Although I have heard nothing but good reports about
>the EDS, it still looks
>cheap to me...
>-Bob Korves
>
>'Bill Daniels' wrote in message
...
>>
>> 'David R.' wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Yep, we had this discussion just the other day and
>>>I was starting to
>think
>> > that I was going to change from my constant flow
>>>system to the EDS.
>> >
>> > This thread has caused me to decide to keep my current
>>>system.
>> >
>> > Oxygen is relatively cheap at my field, my bottle
>>>is good sized and the
>> > whole battery issue is a non-starter.
>> >
>> > Thanks to all for all of your infomation, you saved
>>>me several hundred
>> > dollars.
>> >
>> > dave r.
>>
>> I have the same situation. O2 is cheap but refills
>>take time and I have
>to
>> do it for each flight. My old system used a demand
>>mask that was
>> uncomfortable and it depleted the 22 Cu. Ft. bottle
>>in about 4 hours.
>After
>> a season, that got old.
>>
>> The EDS system is simplicity in action. Just put
>>the cannulla on with the
>> control unit set to start O2 flow at 10k feet and
>>go fly. The O2 supply
>> will last 34 hours at 18K feet which means that a
>>refill maybe twice a
>> season. Convenience wise, there's no comparison.
>>
>> There's also good data that says the pulse demand
>>will get the O2 deeper
>> into the lungs for better blood O2 saturation. The
>>EDS D1 system is
>> expensive but it's a damn good system for gliders.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>
>
>

[Mal.com]

Yes the glider batteries were packed by some pilots in foam etc.

I have also pack the baggage compartment with a spare fleece or two less air
mass to cool down and it insulates the area as well.


"bumper" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Go" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> So far my O2 experience has been up to FL180. Certainly going far above
>> that brings forth other serious considerations. I have thought I would
>> install a continuous flow system as a back-up to the EDS if, and when I
>> decide to fly at those altitudes. Then also a spare/emergency?
>>
>> Do you have any special considerations for the glider primary batteries
>> when it gets that cold?
>>
>
> I think it depends on how long exposed as well as how cold. The ship's
> lead-acid batteries have a fair amount of mass, so internal temperatures
> will drop more slowly than some other stuff in the glider. Obviously,
> battery location plays a role too, i.e. it's typically warmer in the
> cockpit than elsewhere. Since the batteries are discharging and have some
> internal resistance, the internal power dissipation also adds warmth. That
> said, battery capacity at freezing will be down some 20% or more, and
> at -22F, down 50%.
>
> I understand Stemme insulated their battery installation for the wave
> flights in S. America several years ago.
>
> bumper
> ZZ Minden, NV
>
>
>