Start flying with glider self launch certificate?

[James Stauffer]

Is it harder to get a first pilot certificate for glider - self launch vs. normal powered aircraft near St. Paul, MN? It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son), cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements, etc but I'm concerned that it might be a bad path because it appears to be rare and hard to find instruction near St. Paul, MN.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 11:36:57 AM UTC-5, James Stauffer wrote:
> ...It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start
> because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son),
> cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements,
> etc...

Nose-dragger touring self-launchers, maybe.
Touring tail-draggers tend to be more difficult tail-draggers.
Pylon machines should not be considered.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[Dan Marotta]

Many people use Stemmes as touring machines.Â* They're tail draggers but
are one of the most docile handling aircraft of any sort that I've flown
during ground operations.Â* The down sides are the huge turn radius (65
feet) and, of course, the price.

On the positive side, I've flown my Stemme from Moriarty, NM to Minden,
NV at 17,500' MSL achieving 140 kts ground speed each way (very low
winds at altitude), and burning about 3.2 gallons/hour of car gas.Â* AND
it's a two seater, side by side, with 50:1 glide ratio.Â* You can take a
friend or family member, AND it takes only a glider license with self
launch sign off.

It is NOT, however well suited to a new pilot due to its complexity.

On 1/4/2020 9:48 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 11:36:57 AM UTC-5, James Stauffer wrote:
>> ...It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start
>> because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son),
>> cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements,
>> etc...
> Nose-dragger touring self-launchers, maybe.
> Touring tail-draggers tend to be more difficult tail-draggers.
> Pylon machines should not be considered.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Best Regards, Dave

--
Dan, 5J

[Tim Taylor]

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 9:36:57 AM UTC-7, James Stauffer wrote:
> Is it harder to get a first pilot certificate for glider - self launch vs.. normal powered aircraft near St. Paul, MN? It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son), cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements, etc but I'm concerned that it might be a bad path because it appears to be rare and hard to find instruction near St. Paul, MN.

I would suggest getting a glider rating rather than worrying about self-launch. There are good groups at Faribault, MN, Osceola, WI, and Stanton, MN. Once he has gotten the glider rating it is easy to add a power rating later..

[James Stauffer]

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 11:20:04 AM UTC-6, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 9:36:57 AM UTC-7, James Stauffer wrote:
> > Is it harder to get a first pilot certificate for glider - self launch vs. normal powered aircraft near St. Paul, MN? It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son), cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements, etc but I'm concerned that it might be a bad path because it appears to be rare and hard to find instruction near St. Paul, MN.
>
> I would suggest getting a glider rating rather than worrying about self-launch. There are good groups at Faribault, MN, Osceola, WI, and Stanton, MN.. Once he has gotten the glider rating it is easy to add a power rating later.

My son took 3 lessons from RWSA in Osceola, WI. We were gone 8 hours for 1 hour of flight -- that isn't something I can keep doing because of other responsibilities. I might have to wait until he can drive himself to the airport then. :-/

[MNLou]

James - Red Wing and MN Soaring Club (out of Stanton) are both club operations. Cross Country Soaring at Faribault is a commercial operation.

Both have there strengths and weaknesses. If time is critical and you want to show up, have your son fly an hour, then head home, a commercial operation is the way to go.

Full disclosure - I am a very happy member of MSC.

Lou

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I will say, I am not real well versed in current US FAA rules.....
Going from a "SEL" cert to any glider, pretty easy. Glider pilots are a lower rung.
As an ex CFIG....prove you can fly a sailplane to me before signoff.....

[Brian[_1_]]

The issue with initial training in a motor glider is the complexity. There are a lot of system to learn and then to learn how to deal with the failure modes of those systems. It would be kind of like trying to learn how to fly both the towplane and the glider as opposed to just learning to fly one or the other.

Club operations generally are great for low cost at the price of time commitment. The social aspect is also a bit benefit of clubs.

Commercial operations are much better for learning with the least time commitment, but of course cost more.
Many operations are very good at accelerated training where you can stay there for a couple weeks and complete the training. But do your homework and get some recommendations.

A hybrid approach would be to start your son with some power training, which probably is available locally. The Age limit only applies to soloing, not to receiving training. But especially if he got 15-20 hours in a tailwheel airplane (tri-gear would be ok), would get him to where he was about ready to solo and he would develop most of the skills needed to fly a glider. Then spend a week or so at a commercial operation to get his glider rating.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[[email protected]]

A hybrid approach would be to start your son with some power training, which probably is available locally. The Age limit only applies to soloing, not to receiving training. But especially if he got 15-20 hours in a tailwheel airplane (tri-gear would be ok), would get him to where he was about ready to solo and he would develop most of the skills needed to fly a glider.

I respectfully disagree. When people ask me the difference in glider vs. power training, I tell them it is like learning to ride a bicycle vs. starting with a motorcycle.

[Jonathon May]

For young people a gliding club is a great place to do some of the
growing they need to do.
Not just flying
Its team work and responsibility and a whole new group to make
friends among.
If he is lucky there will be others of a similar age .
You can't control your Kids life but you can point them in the right
direction.
A gliding club is a good direction to point him.




At 16:12 05 January 2020, Brian wrote:




>The issue with initial training in a motor glider is the complexity.
There
>=
>are a lot of system to learn and then to learn how to deal with the
>failure=
> modes of those systems. It would be kind of like trying to learn
how to
>fl=
>y both the towplane and the glider as opposed to just learning to fly
one
>o=
>r the other.
>
>Club operations generally are great for low cost at the price of time
>commi=
>tment. The social aspect is also a bit benefit of clubs.
>
>Commercial operations are much better for learning with the least
time
>comm=
>itment, but of course cost more.
>Many operations are very good at accelerated training where you
can stay
>th=
>ere for a couple weeks and complete the training. But do your
homework and
>=
>get some recommendations.
>
>A hybrid approach would be to start your son with some power
training,
>whic=
>h probably is available locally. The Age limit only applies to soloing,
>no=
>t to receiving training. But especially if he got 15-20 hours in a
>tailwhee=
>l airplane (tri-gear would be ok), would get him to where he was
about
>read=
>y to solo and he would develop most of the skills needed to fly a
glider.
>T=
>hen spend a week or so at a commercial operation to get his glider
rating.
>
>Brian
>CFIIG/ASEL
>

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 10:36:57 AM UTC-6, James Stauffer wrote:
> Is it harder to get a first pilot certificate for glider - self launch vs.. normal powered aircraft near St. Paul, MN? It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son), cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements, etc but I'm concerned that it might be a bad path because it appears to be rare and hard to find instruction near St. Paul, MN.

The MN Soaring Club (https://mnsoaringclub.com/) at Stanton, near Northfield, is a great place for a kid to learn how to fly. The MSC has a scholarship program for kids, and GREAT instructors. A really big benefit of a soaring club like this is the social aspect of soaring, where you get to meet a lot of different people, many of whom are airline or retired military pilots who can be great mentors for a kid who is interested in aviation. You miss out on a lot of that if you lean to fly in powered aircraft.

Another thing to look at in the Twin Cities is the ACE Camp that is sponsored by the MN Dept of Aeronautics (https://www.mnacecamp.org/). This is a week long summer camp for kids that includes glider rides, tours of ATC facilities, a ride in a C130, etc.

A big advantage of learning to fly gliders is the stick and rudder skills that really teach you how to fly. Another big plus is that you can solo in a glider when you are 14. The biggest challenge can be how to get to the airport when you aren't old enough to get a drivers license.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 9:36:57 AM UTC-7, James Stauffer wrote:
> Is it harder to get a first pilot certificate for glider - self launch vs.. normal powered aircraft near St. Paul, MN? It seems like a self launch glider certificate would be a great way to start because of better stick and rudder skills, lower age requirements (for my son), cheaper operating costs, glider hours apply toward power aircraft requirements, etc but I'm concerned that it might be a bad path because it appears to be rare and hard to find instruction near St. Paul, MN.

There was a proposal from a group in Washington State at one time to start a club and train using a G-103 III SL. At the time, insurance would not allow first solo in a self-launcher. Not sure if that was because it was a pylon or otherwise. Not saying all underwriters would decline. However, given such a proposal, the next thing to check is insurance. Things may have changed.

Frank Whiteley