Schleicher cockpit

[[email protected]]

It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

[Charles Longley]

You had me at the out of beer! I feel reasonably safe in my ASW 20 but it is a high risk sport. You take your chances in life.

[[email protected]]

You will never get proper data, stories are anecdotal, tiny numbers and different variables. Survivable gets scored the same whether it is soreness for a day or crippled for life. Accident reports with 'released from hospital same day with minor back injury' may not reflect on years of pain and limited mobility.
If safety nags at you, ignore it, or quit and do something else for fun.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:40:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
> One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
> With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
> Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

"crashworthiness" or not, you just can't lawn dart them.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 9:40:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
> One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
> With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
> Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

Ed Byars is alive today because of the crash worthiness of the cockpit of his ASW-28, which is almost exactly the same as the '24. I have a '24 that was cartwheeled. All forward damage was in front of the knees. No injury. I bought a '27 where the accident was so violent that it broke a wing 24 inches from the root. The cockpit stayed together and the pilot walked out of the wreck.
I bought a Discus that cartwheeled. The cockpit was completely broken up. It was a fatal.
FWIW
UH

[George Haeh]

I had a look at a 28 that was seriously smashed up with a loooow turn to a field. The pilot walked away.

Getting smacked in the back of the head by the wing spar is a major fatality mechanism that safety cockpits can mitigate.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:40:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
> One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
> With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
> Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

Lange too looks like they had safety in mind when designing: https://www.lange-aviation.com/en/produkte/antares-20e/sicherheit/

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:40:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
> One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
> With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
> Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

I saw an ASW27 crash on very late final, all pilot error. It dropped a wing/started to rotate. Mangled a wing, broke the tail boom, canopy flew off. I thought for sure the pilot was going to be injured.... and then he climbed out, stood up and walked around. The great undercarriage may have helped here as well.

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

I called Waibel a couple weeks ago to chat and congratulate him for the Lilienthal medal he recently received from OSTIV for his leadership in making gliders more crash resistant. The curved rear lower corners of the canopy frame instead of the usual weak right angle and the mingling of carbon and Kevlar and glass has made the difference in the outcomes of many prangs. The deformation of the front of the fuselage in a crash has been transferred from the hip/torso region to the area in front of the stick.

Thanks go also to Schleicher for supporting these more expensive designs in a financially competitive environment.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Karl Striedieck wrote on 1/18/2020 1:52 PM:
> I called Waibel a couple weeks ago to chat and congratulate him for the Lilienthal medal he recently received from OSTIV for his leadership in making gliders more crash resistant. The curved rear lower corners of the canopy frame instead of the usual weak right angle and the mingling of carbon and Kevlar and glass has made the difference in the outcomes of many prangs. The deformation of the front of the fuselage in a crash has been transferred from the hip/torso region to the area in front of the stick.
>
> Thanks go also to Schleicher for supporting these more expensive designs in a financially competitive environment.

How is Gerhard doing? Flying, involved some project? I miss him at the conventions.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

Since retiring from Schleicher Gerhard and Tilly have lived in Bavaria in the Alps. He is still his ebullient self and stays active with OSTIV, although he hasn't flown for years.

The extra kilos he's carried around forever have put a hurt on his mobility due to knee/hip pain (forget which), so he's gotten serious about dumping some ballast.

Kids Micky (VW engineer) and Susie (dentist) are a source of happiness.

[Delta8]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:40:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

"crashworthiness" or not, you just can't lawn dart them.

I seem to recall the use of airbags years ago but haven't heard anything since. Would an airbag be of any use in a "Lawn Dart " Impact ?
Maybe too much G force to overcome ?

[[email protected]]

I've never met him, but he's on my very small list of personal heroes. His gliders are the best looking and among the best ever built.
Interesting examples listed above, I can see where the cartwheel is a significant event that is less dangerous to the pilot in these gliders. The -27 crash with the sheared wing though sounds like that's where the energy went.. I suppose either way it's fortunate for all of us who fly them that so much effort was given to make us just a bit safer.

The storm is still going, but I've got to work tonight. Anybody need a lift to Paducah?

DT

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I believe there was a stall/spin into trees in the "bowl" near Newcastle, VA decades ago. The ship (ASW-24?) went almost straight into trees, ending up upside down with the nose between 2 rocks. Skinny pilot wiggled out through the broken canopy and walked down a hill to a road.
Cuts and bruises, otherwise fine. Since cockpit didn't collapse, he got out..

I have seen a number of ships that "eggshelled" with a lower frontal impact that usually exploded the canopy and injured from hips and down.

[[email protected]]

I bought my ASW 24 in 1992 based in part on photos of one that had clobbered a ridge at Mifflin. Pilot walked away.

It cost more than the Discus for no better performance but I was happy to pay.

Haven't tested the cockpit. But the landing gear is also a marvelous design with shock absorption and progressive failure in mind that did come in handy when I hit a rock just after touchdown.

Kudos to Gerhard for his work in safer gliders that also fly and perform great.

Chip Bearden
JB

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 1:52:52 PM UTC-8, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> I called Waibel a couple weeks ago to chat and congratulate him for the Lilienthal medal he recently received from OSTIV for his leadership in making gliders more crash resistant...

In 2002 I went to Tehachapi for the annual Experimental Soaring Association convention. When I arrived I found Waibel clad in grubby T-shirt and shorts, cheerfully sweeping out the hangar where that night he would deliver that year's SSA Barnaby lecture on the future of sailplane development.

[2G]

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 6:40:31 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> It's snowing and for entertainment sake I thought I'd throw this question out there.
> One of the selling points of the -24 and later Schleicher gliders is the "crashworthiness" of the fuselage. Waibel won the Ostiv, we've all seen pictures of the test rig dropping a fuselage after a simulated crash. It makes sense. 30 years later does it work?
> With out looking at accident reports I can name a handful of fatalities in modern Schleichers. They don't make a difference in a high energy impact obviously, but how often do we see survivable low energy accidents? Of those low energy crashes, not all of them are going to hurt you anyway. I had a friend bounce a DG100 on its nose after a loss of control on T/O and he survived with stitches on his leg. Over run accidents? I've never heard of one causing serious injury. I have to admit I FEEL more safe in my -24 than say, a Libelle were the cockpit is a bit more robust than an eggshell but I'm not sure it's gonna matter if I screw up turning base to final one day.
> Please respond soon. The snow is set to continue through tomorrow, I've watched everything on Netflix, I'm out of beer and waiting for the epoxy to set.

Improved crashworthiness is not just a marketing slogan, it's very real:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20140714X53809&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA
https://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2015-03_I_Crashed_Gawthrop-12-17.pdf

Tom

[[email protected]]

By comparing with a DG100 you are starting from an excellent cockpit design, as it was built with a double shell unitary structure which was a very advanced feature, probably unique in its era. It would have deserved a prize, if any were issued at that time.
The ASW24 and all AS derivatives deserved the Ostiv Prize 100% as they're a significant step forward.
I've seen an Antares cockpit, or rather what remained of it after a 20g, 30° nose down crash IIRC. It has a more advanced safety cage. The pilot was lightly wounded.
I'd feel significantly less protected in an UL glider, or in first generations glass ships.
No cockpit features can protect the pilot in an impact against exposed rocks.

Aldo Cernezzi