Lowest power tow

[[email protected]]

What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

[[email protected][_1_]]

Garland Pack’s J-3’s. 85 hp?

180 hp beater Super Cub in Aspen CO on a hot day towing a loaded 2-32 or Janus with the spoilers out?

[Charles Longley]

I saw someone go behind a 65 hp J-3 once. They said they would never do it again!

[Scott Williams[_2_]]

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:30:51 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

I wonder how much Aerotowing in the U.S. was influenced by post war economies, the U.S. had almost all the money, airplanes and resources following WWII. additionally, you could probably aerotow any early (read light, low wing loaded and slow) glider with a J3.
History is so funny, unless it's happening to you.
Scott

[Ron Gleason]

On Saturday, 18 January 2020 22:30:51 UTC-7, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

Dragonfly Ultralight used to tow hang gliders, equipped with Rotax 914S. Towed my DG303 at Big SPring TX during the 2008 HG worlds so we could assist the organizers with spotting 'cloud flyers' amongst the competitors.

Many gliders have been towed out of Sheets airport, north of Seminole, when they landed short getting back to Seminole.

[AS]

> I wonder how much Aerotowing in the U.S. was influenced by post war economies, the U.S. had almost all the money, airplanes and resources following WWII. additionally, you could probably aerotow any early (read light, low wing loaded and slow) glider with a J3.
> History is so funny, unless it's happening to you.
> Scott

Pretty much right on the money, Scott. The opposite situation existed in post-war Europe, which resulted in winch-launching becoming the main way to get gliders airborne over there.

Uli
'AS'

[AS]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:30:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

My club used to own a British-made Taylorcraft 'Auster'. It had an inverted inline four (or six? - can't remember) engine which seemed very underpowered. We soon switched to a 150HP Super-Cub, which made a huge difference.

Uli
'AS'

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:06:08 -0800, AS wrote:

> On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:30:51 AM UTC-5,
> wrote:
>> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An
>> Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw
>> paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.
>
> My club used to own a British-made Taylorcraft 'Auster'. It had an
> inverted inline four (or six? - can't remember) engine which seemed very
> underpowered. We soon switched to a 150HP Super-Cub, which made a huge
> difference.
>
That engine would have been the De Havilland Gypsy Major, 130hp, four
cylinder inverted. It was fitted to a lot of 30s and 40s DH designs as
well as the Auster III, the most common Auster variant.

A lot of towing in the mid-50s in NZ, and probably in Britain as well,
was done with DH82 Tiger Moths, which all used the 130hp Gypsy Major
engine. As ex-wartime primary trainers they were plentiful and very
cheap. IIRC around 1950 you could pick them up for £25 in Britain. They
were also very common in Australia and NZ, where a lot were crashed in
early attempts at spreading superphosphate by air on hill pastures .

In 1958, in NZ, I remember getting a ride in a Schleicher
Ka-4 Rhonlerche. That was an aero-towed launch behind a Tiger Moth.

Several years later, when Tiger Moths had been replaced by the
Fletcher FU-24 as the topdressing aircraft of choice, I remember seeing a
Cessna 180 with a bomb rack under each wing - this was an ill-advised
attempt to deliver fencing material on hill farms, the 'bomb' being a
bundle of angle-iron fence posts, etc. The problem was that the bundles
either arrived end-on and went in so far that it wasn't worth digging
them out or they landed sideways and rolled down to the bottom of the
hill, from where the farmer had to use a tractor/jeep/pack-horse to cart
them up the hill to where they were wanted. It was simpler and cheaper to
cart the fencing material up the hill along the same track the fencers
used, so that delivery method as soon abandoned.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

In the 1960's-70's my Dad, Fritz Compton, would tow me in our Cirrus(Open Class) out of our 1,900' grass runway gliderport south of Miami, FLA using a 65 HP Piper J3 Cub with a climb prop. Later we upgraded to a 100 HP 1959 Cessna 150 with a climb prop. If the grass is tightly mowed, the glider pilot is very smooth on the controls (to minimize drag) and a discussion of a mandatory abort point is accomplished, it worked for us but You must evaluate and make your own decision!

My other "slow tow" experiences include aerotows in Germany behind motorgliders and the European category of ultralight airplanes.

The legendary Dick Johnson told me at a Marfa Wave Camp that he preferred a lower powered towplane because a slow climb on tow allowed him to evaluate and mark the thermals before release.

Those "old school" aviators had some interesting ideas and observations. Ask me sometime about my Dad's observation of the engine sound of an airplane flying overhead on a cold day - how the sound can indicate if thermals are present and if we should launch. Dad also observed that hawks and eagles often flew in the core of a thermal but buzzards and vultures preferred a slower climb on the edge of a thermal. True or not, soaring is primarily about the observations you make by looking outside.

Looking forward to further discussions at the SSA Convention in Little Rock, FEB 19-22, 2020.
Find me at the Soaring Safety Foundation booth near the entrance to the convention hall.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 10:30:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

Essex & Suffolk GC had an Auster A5J and a Rollason Condor D.62C (130hp). After a mishap with the Auster, the club acquired another Condor D.62A (100hp). The A version only towed single seaters. I could see the stall warning light going on and off in the Condor panels at times from the glider end..

[Steve Thompson[_2_]]

I believe the benchmark lowest power tow was by a 1600 VW powered D31
Turbulent, from the Tiger Club at Redhill, UK, in the 1960's. A 15m
Slingsby Dart
was the victim. The tow was never repeated.


At 19:09 19 January 2020, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 10:30:51 PM UTC-7,
>wro=
>te:
>> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An
>Examin=
>er of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for
>an=
> 85hp Luscombe to tow.
>
>Essex & Suffolk GC had an Auster A5J and a Rollason Condor D.62C (130hp).

>=
>After a mishap with the Auster, the club acquired another Condor D.62A
>(100=
>hp). The A version only towed single seaters. I could see the stall
>warni=
>ng light going on and off in the Condor panels at times from the glider
>end=
>..
>

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:30:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

I once took a tow in my HP-14 behind a Citabria or Luscombe. I don't know the horsepower - that plane had a tow hook mostly for use towing banners. It was a wild windy wave day and the tow seemed to take forever as I was using full-control-deflections in all directions in the turbulence. After release at 4000 AGL or so I hit consistent sink and beat the towplane back to the airport.

[Roger Burghall[_2_]]

I don't know where it falls on this spectrum, but I had a tow behind a
Tiger Moth... and I was in a Slingsby Capstan (a heavy wooden two seater).
I was puzzled to be briefed about a farm in a wood on the horizon. We went
round it!

[Charlie Quebec]

After launching behind a 260hp tug for most of my gliding, I’ve been towed by a 152/150hp recently, at first it felt slow, but fine once used to it.
When I was towed behind the 260hp again recently it felt like a rocket launch, funny how ones expectations can change.

[Marton KSz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCMO1JtZhA&feature=youtu.be&t=38

Yep, that's a trike

[Eric Munk]

Surely the Russian hot air balloon launch of a glider? Footage on
youtube.

[Marton KSz]

On the topic of aerotow, I think it's not the net horsepower that matters. Rather, the remaining excess horsepower after moving and lifting the towplane, which can be quite sufficient if the towplane is light enough.

[Cookie]

Yes, but you gotta add in the drag of the glider too. Out tow pilot would rather tow a G103 than a 2-33 !


Cookie



On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 3:01:59 AM UTC-5, Marton KSz wrote:
> On the topic of aerotow, I think it's not the net horsepower that matters. Rather, the remaining excess horsepower after moving and lifting the towplane, which can be quite sufficient if the towplane is light enough.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 17:19:40 -0800, Marton KSz wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZCMO1JtZhA&feature=youtu.be&t=38
>
> Yep, that's a trike
>
....and a Rubik R.,22 Gobe being towed, which has very similar performance
to a 2/33 though it may be slightly lighter.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Eric Munk]

At 08:32 20 January 2020, Cookie wrote:
>Yes, but you gotta add in the drag of the glider too. Out tow pilot
would
>rather tow a G103 than a 2-33 !

Same with our Sedbergh on aerotow, which has been described by a towpilot
as "it feels like towing an open parachute with a heavy duty boat anchor
slung underneath"...

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 9:20:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Saturday, 18 January 2020 22:30:51 UTC-7, wrote:
> > What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.
>
> Dragonfly Ultralight used to tow hang gliders, equipped with Rotax 914S. Towed my DG303 at Big SPring TX during the 2008 HG worlds so we could assist the organizers with spotting 'cloud flyers' amongst the competitors.
>
> Many gliders have been towed out of Sheets airport, north of Seminole, when they landed short getting back to Seminole.

We have a turbo Dragonfly at our place. Lots of power but a slow airplane. How fast was your tow speed behind the Dragonfly?
UH

[[email protected]]

Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with.

[[email protected]]

"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."
>
> If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.

Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.

[AS]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."
> >
> > If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
>
> Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.

How about a long string of sorts which we lay out along the field and tug on from the end or wind it up like on a fishing reel on steroids powered by something .... I can see it in mind now .... ;-)

Uli
'AS'

[Ron Gleason]

On Monday, 20 January 2020 06:37:06 UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 9:20:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
> > On Saturday, 18 January 2020 22:30:51 UTC-7, wrote:
> > > What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.
> >
> > Dragonfly Ultralight used to tow hang gliders, equipped with Rotax 914S.. Towed my DG303 at Big SPring TX during the 2008 HG worlds so we could assist the organizers with spotting 'cloud flyers' amongst the competitors.
> >
> > Many gliders have been towed out of Sheets airport, north of Seminole, when they landed short getting back to Seminole.
>
> We have a turbo Dragonfly at our place. Lots of power but a slow airplane.. How fast was your tow speed behind the Dragonfly?
> UH

I believe I lifted off the runway around 50 MPH and we towed between 48-55 MPH. The maximum speed of a Dragonfly is around 62 MPH according to the designer Bobbie Ballie due to the airfoil and all the drag.

Used lots of runway ~2,000 ft, the Dragonfly takes off within 100 feet of TO roll so the tow pilot has to stay low as speed increases. Glider pilot has to be patient to stay on the ground till desired speed and yes you are looking up at the Dragonfly. I kept low tow position for maximum visibility and to 'follow' the Dragonfly as it moved around.

Yes the Dragonfly is very lite weight and it is easy to disrupt it. The conditions at Big Spring are strong thermic so yes I threw the Dragonfly around a few times. Plus we only towed to 1,500 AGL as conditions were quite good to get away.

The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.

Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.

I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.

[[email protected]]

> The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.
>
> Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.
>
> I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.

With higher density altitudes, the turbo-914 is OK but as Ron has noted the tow speeds are limited with the Dragonfly. The normally aspirated Dragonfly's would be challenged at the higher density altitudes. I've had good, but careful tows from Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and Rhett Radford in Dragonfly's towing half a dozen types of lighter gliders. The turbo-914 has successfully towed my ASW-27B many times, but dry. It was borderline, and both pilots really need to know what they are doing.

The lowest powered tows I've experienced were behind a flex-wing Trike, forgotten make, flown by Neal Harris with a Rotax 377 and 35 hp at Hearne, TX. With this, we set two World Records in a Woodstock I- out and return distance and 100km speed triangle for DU class gliders. These were later eclipsed by more modern designs.

As another poster wrote, Garland Pack's early work in this area is notable. A cogent paper was written showing the effectiveness of completely stripping the tow plane to reduce all unnecessary weight- and matching props to the job. I have a copy somewhere but cannot locate it right now. As another poster wrote, the key figure of merit here is excess power. Penaud diagrams are effective in portratying the pertinent relationships and variables.

Please do not construe any of this as a general recommendation. More power = more safety, more options.

Gary Osoba

[Dan Marotta]

Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?

On 1/20/2020 7:34 AM, wrote:
> "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."
>
> If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:32:11 AM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."
> > >
> > > If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
> >
> > Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.
>
> How about a long string of sorts which we lay out along the field and tug on from the end or wind it up like on a fishing reel on steroids powered by something .... I can see it in mind now .... ;-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

That is brilliant. We could attach a pulley that winds that string up to a motor then mount the motor/pulley arrangement in the belly of a glider and wind up into the sky.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 12:23:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.
> >
> > Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.
> >
> > I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.
>
> With higher density altitudes, the turbo-914 is OK but as Ron has noted the tow speeds are limited with the Dragonfly. The normally aspirated Dragonfly's would be challenged at the higher density altitudes. I've had good, but careful tows from Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and Rhett Radford in Dragonfly's towing half a dozen types of lighter gliders. The turbo-914 has successfully towed my ASW-27B many times, but dry. It was borderline, and both pilots really need to know what they are doing.
>
> The lowest powered tows I've experienced were behind a flex-wing Trike, forgotten make, flown by Neal Harris with a Rotax 377 and 35 hp at Hearne, TX. With this, we set two World Records in a Woodstock I- out and return distance and 100km speed triangle for DU class gliders. These were later eclipsed by more modern designs.
>
> As another poster wrote, Garland Pack's early work in this area is notable. A cogent paper was written showing the effectiveness of completely stripping the tow plane to reduce all unnecessary weight- and matching props to the job. I have a copy somewhere but cannot locate it right now. As another poster wrote, the key figure of merit here is excess power. Penaud diagrams are effective in portratying the pertinent relationships and variables.
>
> Please do not construe any of this as a general recommendation. More power = more safety, more options.
>
> Gary Osoba

The Garland Pack tugs were the topic of a Soaring magazine article.
Searching the archive should find it.
UH

[john firth]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 12:30:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.

Low power, maybe not but I had a slow and scary tow in Oz
behind a spray/ag Pawnee in a ballasted Libelle, below 45 kts.
Didn't dare to use aileron so I just kept pedalling in low tow
till I fell off more or less stalled at 1800 agl; Reprimanded by
the CD for releasing outside the release zone!

At the other end of scary, a tow by a Cessna 190 at 90+ kts
in rough conditions.

John F

[AS]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
>
> Dan, 5J

Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler.
Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 4:05:35 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> > launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> > aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
> >
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler.
> Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Just remembered Schweizer built a motorized prototype off a 1-26 that was supposed to be a cheap tug. Anyone know if it didn't work well or there was no market?

[Mike C]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:21:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 4:05:35 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> > > launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> > > aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
> > >
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler.
> > Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Just remembered Schweizer built a motorized prototype off a 1-26 that was supposed to be a cheap tug. Anyone know if it didn't work well or there was no market?

Neither the 1-30 nor the 2-31 were not used at the soaring school while I was a teenager working as a line boy and learning to fly. They were rarely ever flown.

[Mike C]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 3:11:49 PM UTC-7, Mike C wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:21:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 4:05:35 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> > > > launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> > > > aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
> > > >
> > > > Dan, 5J
> > >
> > > Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler..
> > > Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > Just remembered Schweizer built a motorized prototype off a 1-26 that was supposed to be a cheap tug. Anyone know if it didn't work well or there was no market?
>
> Neither the 1-30 nor the 2-31 were not used at the soaring school while I was a teenager working as a line boy and learning to fly. They were rarely ever flown.

Should have been neither were used. Sorry.

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:21:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 4:05:35 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> > > > launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> > > > aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
> > > >
> > > > Dan, 5J
> > >
> > > Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler..
> > > Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)
> > >
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > Just remembered Schweizer built a motorized prototype off a 1-26 that was supposed to be a cheap tug. Anyone know if it didn't work well or there was no market?
>
> Neither the 1-30 nor the 2-31 were not used at the soaring school while I was a teenager working as a line boy and learning to fly. They were rarely ever flown.

There are photos of the 1-30 towing a 1-26. Not sure if it got much past testing stage.
UH

[[email protected]]

The long-standing absolute altitude record taken in the 1-23 was off an 85hp Luscombe tow...

[Colten Coughlin]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:16:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."
> >
> > If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
>
> Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.

Yes! I think you have come up with a new idea!

[Colten Coughlin]

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 3:21:15 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 4:05:35 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 1:44:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
> > > launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
> > > aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?
> > >
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > Not sure about an air boat but experiencing a launch by sea-plane would be interesting. Has been done in 1935 with a Do-12 towing a DFS Seeadler.
> > Sorry for the thread drift .... ;-)
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Just remembered Schweizer built a motorized prototype off a 1-26 that was supposed to be a cheap tug. Anyone know if it didn't work well or there was no market?

I know that there was the Schweizer 1-30 and then the 2-31, the 1-30 had the same tail and wings as a 1-26A. they were both low hp and the a two or three 2-31s were bought by the coast guard for drug surveillance on the border. I have not heard of them being used as towplanes.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:57:53 -0800, Colten Coughlin wrote:

> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:16:52 AM UTC-6,
> wrote:
>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5,
>> wrote:
>> > "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly
>> > for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the
>> > soaring brain trust could come up with."
>> >
>> > If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require
>> > dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain
>> > trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh...
>> > well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
>>
>> Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.
>
> Yes! I think you have come up with a new idea!

One of these was built 10-20 years ago (in California IIRC), but never
flown AFAIK. It wasd pretty much just a giant version of an old-fashioned
rubber powered beginners free flight model, except the rubber motor was
inside a tubular fuselage rather than strung under a wooden beam.

There was a huge (20 ft diameter?) two-blade prop on the front, a long,
stalky two-wheel undercarriage with a single axle across between the
undercarriage legs and a wheel on each end. The 90kg rubber motor was
inside a narrow, tubular wooden (balsa?) fuselage. The pilot sat in a
small open nacelle mounted on the centre of the undercarriage axle. He
held an ordinary RC transmitter that controlled two large servos
connected to the rudder and elevators. No ailerons, flaps or airbrakes
were fitted. The wings had plenty of dihedral for roll stability, which
also meant that simply feeding in rudder would roll it into a turn.

They wound it up using the power take-off on a tractor.

It got as far as taxiing trials with the wings removed.

Not long after that, the website vanished. I don't know why it all went
silent and have never heard anything more about it since then.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Wow!Â* Imagine what would happen if the rubber band was over wound...Â*
And another occurrence of fly-by-wire(less) control. :-D

On 1/24/2020 2:24 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:57:53 -0800, Colten Coughlin wrote:
>
>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:16:52 AM UTC-6,
>> wrote:
>>> On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5,
>>> wrote:
>>>> "Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly
>>>> for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the
>>>> soaring brain trust could come up with."
>>>>
>>>> If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require
>>>> dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain
>>>> trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh...
>>>> well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
>>> Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.
>> Yes! I think you have come up with a new idea!
> One of these was built 10-20 years ago (in California IIRC), but never
> flown AFAIK. It wasd pretty much just a giant version of an old-fashioned
> rubber powered beginners free flight model, except the rubber motor was
> inside a tubular fuselage rather than strung under a wooden beam.
>
> There was a huge (20 ft diameter?) two-blade prop on the front, a long,
> stalky two-wheel undercarriage with a single axle across between the
> undercarriage legs and a wheel on each end. The 90kg rubber motor was
> inside a narrow, tubular wooden (balsa?) fuselage. The pilot sat in a
> small open nacelle mounted on the centre of the undercarriage axle. He
> held an ordinary RC transmitter that controlled two large servos
> connected to the rudder and elevators. No ailerons, flaps or airbrakes
> were fitted. The wings had plenty of dihedral for roll stability, which
> also meant that simply feeding in rudder would roll it into a turn.
>
> They wound it up using the power take-off on a tractor.
>
> It got as far as taxiing trials with the wings removed.
>
> Not long after that, the website vanished. I don't know why it all went
> silent and have never heard anything more about it since then.
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 08:00:32 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Wow!Â* Imagine what would happen if the rubber band was over wound...
> And another occurrence of fly-by-wire(less) control. :-D
>
Yes, doesn't bear thinking about!

It turns out it was only 90 pounds of best quality 1/4" aero strip as
used to power competition models - an unstretched length of 17,500 feet,
5350m, 3.5 miles. It was made up into a 400 strand motor 25 feet (7.7m)
long and expected to take 700-800 turns when fully wound. The airframe
weighed 220 lbs without the rubber.

Here's the most complete version of the story that I've found, complete
with a picture of the Rubber Bandit rigged ready to fly:

http://sustainableskies.org/a-chance-to-unwind/

.... but it doesn't say why the Rubber Bandit never flew. Elsewhere I
found an estimate that the 90lb rubber band cost $US 180,000 and hinted
that this had a bearing on it not flying. But that can't be right,
because even at today's prices that 90 lb motor would only cost $US 3500,
and the article didn't say they needed a new rubber band before they
could go and fly.

BTW, this wasn't the first rubber powered manned aeroplane: in around
1988 an EAA chapter built and flew the first one. They modified a Lazair
ultralite by installing a vastly extended centre boom containing a more
modestly sized bundle of aero strip and with a big prop on the front.
This only had 23 lbs of rubber in it, but did manage to fly 1000 ft:

http://www.lightsportaircraftpilot.com/
rubberband_powered_ultralightaircraft/index.html

Maybe its my model flying background, but I think the Rubber Bandit looks
a lot more elegant than the RB-1.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Wow! This is all very interesting!