Best vario for airmass awareness across the speed range

[Jim Hogue]

Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.

I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.

I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.

I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.

My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.

Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:39:31 AM UTC-8, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

Butterfly from Air-Avionics. There are a few dealers with units in stock.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 8:58:52 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:39:31 AM UTC-8, Jim Hogue wrote:
> > Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
> >
> > I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
> >
> > I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
> >
> > I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
> >
> > My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also..
> >
> > Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
>
> Butterfly from Air-Avionics. There are a few dealers with units in stock..

They are discontinued. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.aviation.soaring/8g7uDjRDeJQ/cK3cRwFMAAAJ .

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 1/23/2020 5:58 AM:
>> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>>
>> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>>
>> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>>
>> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jim J6
> Butterfly from Air-Avionics. There are a few dealers with units in stock.

What Jonathan doesn't quite mention is Air Avionics is no longer selling the
Butterfly (aka as "Display S" or "Air Glide S"), which is manufactured for them by
Triadis. According to Air Avionics, their support for the vario will continue, and
possibly Triadis will decide to continue manufacturing and selling the vario and
other Air Glide products.

I have a Butterfly vario in my ASH 26 E (using static/pitot), and love it. It's
the best vario I've used, and it's AHRS (attitude indicator) and basic final glide
navigation are important features for me.

The speed of it's wind measurement is what sets it apart. A recent discussion on
the LXNAV Soaring Equipment User Discussion Group showed this, as pilots with or
interested in the LX 90xx glide computers wanted to know how well the LX vario
handled wind. The consensus was the Butterfly was the best.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[jfitch]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:39:31 AM UTC-8, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

I'd also recommend the Air Avionics. It has inertially derived air mass movement, which is how it does the wind calculations. I've seen/used the others and they don't compare. One possibility is the new Borgelt, expansive claims are made for it though the technical side is kept secret which is suspect.

Varios going all the way back to the 302 have MEMS inertial sensors in them, but Air Avionics seem to be the only ones to crack the software problem of using them.

[[email protected]]

I have not seen a better airmass vario system than the Butterfly. Most importantly to me, its wind solutions are amazingly good. It has been a game-changer for many in the Tehachapi-Southern Sierra tribe. The location of convergence lines is critical to X-C in the Owens Valley and Great Basin. The accuracy and update rate of Butterfly winds are outstanding and a tremendous asset it "convergence hunting. My only issue is its complexity, i.e., the large number of user-defined parameters available and what exactly their effects are on vario display, sensitivity and response. I have flown a Butterfly for 3 years, incrementally changing some parameters and am still not comfortable with its behaviors, especially when compared to the CAI 302.

It terms of "best" vario for X-C flying, the 302 is also very good and an incredible value.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 12:53:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I have not seen a better airmass vario system than the Butterfly. Most importantly to me, its wind solutions are amazingly good. It has been a game-changer for many in the Tehachapi-Southern Sierra tribe. The location of convergence lines is critical to X-C in the Owens Valley and Great Basin. The accuracy and update rate of Butterfly winds are outstanding and a tremendous asset it "convergence hunting. My only issue is its complexity, i.e., the large number of user-defined parameters available and what exactly their effects are on vario display, sensitivity and response. I have flown a Butterfly for 3 years, incrementally changing some parameters and am still not comfortable with its behaviors, especially when compared to the CAI 302.
>
> It terms of "best" vario for X-C flying, the 302 is also very good and an incredible value.

No just for convergence: I been able to find weak waves on days when it was very difficult by watching the sudden increase in headwind. I will see an increase of 5 - 10 knots and sure enough there it is. Also have found persistent exploitable afternoon Zephyrs in the Minden area. Never have seen these on the more traditional wind calcs.

Paired with iGlide, you will get a wind vector calculated each second and displayed in the lift dot of the thermal assistant. The wind vectors reliably point towards the center of the lift. I've been told this may be unique to rough/strong western thermals, but it works well there in strong but very inconsistent (and therefore hard to center) lift.

[[email protected][_1_]]

Completely agree. Wind vectors reliably point toward the center of local lift. I have noticed that when centered in the strongest part of a thermal, the wind drops to zero. Very comforting and useful information.

Amazing instrument. I hope it continues to be supported and evolved. I do not believe the vario parts of the system are fully mature.

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

Next batch of Dynamis varios planned to be available no later than mid April 2020.

Zero sensitivity to horizontal gusts, excellent total energy, wind vector in real time.

57mm or 80mm size. Interfaces with phones, tablets, Oudie for controlling bugs, ballast and MacCready etc. or can be controlled by small Glare shield controller/display.

Logarithmic or linear scale available.

See www.borgeltinstruments.com B600/B800 is the vario part. Dynamis box lives behind panel.

Also Dynamis flight demonstration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng&t=348s

Mike Borgelt

Borgelt Instruments



On Thursday, 23 January 2020 23:39:31 UTC+10, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

[jfitch]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:46:54 PM UTC-8, Mike Borgelt wrote:
> Next batch of Dynamis varios planned to be available no later than mid April 2020.
>
> Zero sensitivity to horizontal gusts, excellent total energy, wind vector in real time.
>
> 57mm or 80mm size. Interfaces with phones, tablets, Oudie for controlling bugs, ballast and MacCready etc. or can be controlled by small Glare shield controller/display.
>
> Logarithmic or linear scale available.
>
> See www.borgeltinstruments.com B600/B800 is the vario part. Dynamis box lives behind panel.
>
> Also Dynamis flight demonstration
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiSCU84mCng&t=348s
>
> Mike Borgelt
>
> Borgelt Instruments
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 23 January 2020 23:39:31 UTC+10, Jim Hogue wrote:
> > Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
> >
> > I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
> >
> > I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
> >
> > I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
> >
> > My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also..
> >
> > Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6

I'd be interested to know more about this instrument, starting with the price. Also the principal behind its operation. That would make it seem less like vaporware.

[[email protected]]

In terms of air-mass sensing, I found the Air Glide S to be on par with the ClearNav-Vario. The CNv was easier to install, but the wind calculation did not work well. I also found the Air Glide to be easier to use and of a much better quality of the hardware.

However, an old Zander ZS1 is still an excellent device for air-mass sensing. Wouldn't replace it with any of the two above unless I have to.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 1:18:22 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 12:53:35 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > I have not seen a better airmass vario system than the Butterfly. Most importantly to me, its wind solutions are amazingly good. It has been a game-changer for many in the Tehachapi-Southern Sierra tribe. The location of convergence lines is critical to X-C in the Owens Valley and Great Basin. The accuracy and update rate of Butterfly winds are outstanding and a tremendous asset it "convergence hunting. My only issue is its complexity, i.e., the large number of user-defined parameters available and what exactly their effects are on vario display, sensitivity and response. I have flown a Butterfly for 3 years, incrementally changing some parameters and am still not comfortable with its behaviors, especially when compared to the CAI 302.
> >
> > It terms of "best" vario for X-C flying, the 302 is also very good and an incredible value.
>
> No just for convergence: I been able to find weak waves on days when it was very difficult by watching the sudden increase in headwind. I will see an increase of 5 - 10 knots and sure enough there it is. Also have found persistent exploitable afternoon Zephyrs in the Minden area. Never have seen these on the more traditional wind calcs.
>
> Paired with iGlide, you will get a wind vector calculated each second and displayed in the lift dot of the thermal assistant. The wind vectors reliably point towards the center of the lift. I've been told this may be unique to rough/strong western thermals, but it works well there in strong but very inconsistent (and therefore hard to center) lift.

The Butterfly coupled with connect stick to feed data to iGlide on an iPhone gives you a great backup or primary computer too.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:39:31 AM UTC-8, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

A couple of other points for Jim: The Air Avionics has very good voice warnings of Flarm and ADSB targets, spoilers open, gear down, etc. It is possible to thermal with the inertial air mass sensors alone (no pneumatics needed) with the engine boom deployed.

An interesting thing about pneumatic noise from the engine boom is that the signal required is still present, just very noisy. Using the old Winpilot Thermal Maximizer (still the best) or the pretty good copy on the CN vario, you can mind the thermal center correction arrow ignoring the noisy data itself and thermal quite successfully. The software integrates out the noise.. This is true regardless of the vario input - at least I've done it routinely with a 302/Winpilot in the old days and the CN now.

[[email protected]]

Jim H and Jim, I wonder if this generation of glider guiders could even find or center a thermal using a simple mechanical vario lol How far we have advanced but also how far we have digressed in skills.

[Jim Hogue]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 2:48:34 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Jim H and Jim, I wonder if this generation of glider guiders could even find or center a thermal using a simple mechanical vario lol How far we have advanced but also how far we have digressed in skills.

Haha! For me, it seems like finding the sweet air is getting more difficult every year! And I don't even have a mechanical vario in my '26, not enough room in the panel, haha. I really ought to fly the other '26 (the club's 1-26) more often, and without a battery, to prove to myself I can still do it "old school"....

One thing I have always found difficult is sorting out what the airmass is doing when I am cruising at speeds above about 80 knots, and in the presence of gusts and turbulence. Enlisting new technology to help me here...

Cheers,
Jim J6

[[email protected]]

Truth there Jim, even though I have the 302 setup as super netto in cruise mode, I tend to use my behind to tell me if its worth stopping.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 3:48:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Jim H and Jim, I wonder if this generation of glider guiders could even find or center a thermal using a simple mechanical vario lol How far we have advanced but also how far we have digressed in skills.

I suspect that many have not calibrated their Alpha Sierra Sierra sensors anytime recently. Failure to calibrate these sensors leaves one totally digitally dependent.
Risky and prone to long term failure.
UH

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 1/24/2020 12:48 PM:
> Jim H and Jim, I wonder if this generation of glider guiders could even find or center a thermal using a simple mechanical vario lol How far we have advanced but also how far we have digressed in skills.
>
In the olden days we flew with slower, lighter gliders, so a slower vario without
audio worked fine. Now we cruise at 90 kts and thermal at 60 with full ballast.

But even then, pilots were using TE and Netto.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[jfitch]

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 12:48:34 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Jim H and Jim, I wonder if this generation of glider guiders could even find or center a thermal using a simple mechanical vario lol How far we have advanced but also how far we have digressed in skills.

A simple mechanical vario was new tech when I learned. Real varios have a red pellet and a green pellet as the only moving parts. Those were the days. I don't miss them. My current glider has a full in-flight infotainment system that can even play full length movies - great for those long boring final glides.

It's hard to feel thermals at 90 knots in a carbon glider full of water. At 17 knots in a hang glider (1lb/sq ft) you really get a feel for the structure of the thermal which can be quite exciting at times.

[[email protected]]

I've been flying with a CNv the past few years. I like it a lot. Much better info on airmass and dramatically easier centering the thermal. But there are times I ignore it and rely on an old Winter mechanical. I'm talking about a turn or two, not an extended climb. So I can still fly without the newer gadgets. I just don't feel like it. :)

Chip Bearden
JB

[[email protected]]

Jfitch, I just acquired another restoration project which still has one of the old pellet varios lol. I always wondered how immediate the response time was with them.

As to flying ships with the higher wing loading and faster cruise/thermal speeds, yep, thats an entirely different situation. Electronics become more vital for efficient flying. I still made a point of flying occassionaly with just my mechanical vario when I had my ventus just to train my a.s.s. as to how my ship felt when plowing thru lift and how to center up a thermal without accurate aids. I remember one flight trying to get home from hawthorne late in the day when my battery pooped out. I got home using the mechanical winter, and watching when the airspeed would slightly jump when entering mild lift. That little jump in airspeed told me what I needed to know ling before the winter said anything lol.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 8:39:31 AM UTC-5, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

You can still obtain the AirGlide with the Triadis sensors and cables. Just ask around. Nothing is even comes close to its abilities. Can be used without a TE probe with astonishing accuracy.

[waremark]

The quality of earlier Borgelt varios suggest that the Dynamis is unlikely to be vaporware. However user reports and price info would be welcome.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 8:41:09 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
> The quality of earlier Borgelt varios suggest that the Dynamis is unlikely to be vaporware. However user reports and price info would be welcome.

It is likely to be a good variometer, but not many will spend over $5k on a vario that has not been tested and compared to AirGlide vario that costs much less and looks much better. I would also hope the new veriometer would have a better user interface, and not require clunky additional pieces that one would have to install to control it or rely on software like Oudie, very unattractive solution.

Mike is a good guy but his website gives no useful information, with last update 18 months ago.

[Tim Taylor]

Andrzej is correct. The Borgelt vario is hopefully a good vario, but it is unlikely to find much acceptance. I offered to pay for all shipping costs to try a unit and was informed that Borgelt has never offered units for testing. I had flown with a B50 for many years and had hoped that the new vario would provide an opertunity for Borgelt to begin penetrating the market again. I have been able to test fly most other varios in the past. As an engineer, when a company is not will to let you test what they are selling it is a red flag.

1. Units need to be made available for testing.
2. The user interface needs a complete overhaul to be streamlined like all other modern varios. Today we expect a vario to provide much more information than 20 years ago all in a single package without an external readout that doesn't even fit a modern panel.

I hope the Borgelt vario is as good as claimed and they will invest in putting it in an improved user interface.

[krasw]

On Saturday, 25 January 2020 18:04:45 UTC+2, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Andrzej is correct. The Borgelt vario is hopefully a good vario, but it is unlikely to find much acceptance. I offered to pay for all shipping costs to try a unit and was informed that Borgelt has never offered units for testing. I had flown with a B50 for many years and had hoped that the new vario would provide an opertunity for Borgelt to begin penetrating the market again. I have been able to test fly most other varios in the past. As an engineer, when a company is not will to let you test what they are selling it is a red flag.
>
> 1. Units need to be made available for testing.
> 2. The user interface needs a complete overhaul to be streamlined like all other modern varios. Today we expect a vario to provide much more information than 20 years ago all in a single package without an external readout that doesn't even fit a modern panel.
>
> I hope the Borgelt vario is as good as claimed and they will invest in putting it in an improved user interface.

I have never ever heard anyone getting a variometer for test from dealer or manufacturer before buying it. Just installing magnetometer properly is easily couple of days work.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

krasw wrote on 1/25/2020 9:47 AM:
> On Saturday, 25 January 2020 18:04:45 UTC+2, Tim Taylor wrote:
>> Andrzej is correct. The Borgelt vario is hopefully a good vario, but it is unlikely to find much acceptance. I offered to pay for all shipping costs to try a unit and was informed that Borgelt has never offered units for testing. I had flown with a B50 for many years and had hoped that the new vario would provide an opertunity for Borgelt to begin penetrating the market again. I have been able to test fly most other varios in the past. As an engineer, when a company is not will to let you test what they are selling it is a red flag.
>>
>> 1. Units need to be made available for testing.
>> 2. The user interface needs a complete overhaul to be streamlined like all other modern varios. Today we expect a vario to provide much more information than 20 years ago all in a single package without an external readout that doesn't even fit a modern panel.
>>
>> I hope the Borgelt vario is as good as claimed and they will invest in putting it in an improved user interface.
>
> I have never ever heard anyone getting a variometer for test from dealer or manufacturer before buying it. Just installing magnetometer properly is easily couple of days work.
>
Loaning instruments to competent pilots before production begins, and even after
is common. These are the people you want to test your product, so you can catch
problems before they can annoy a larger number of people and tarnish your
reputation. Perhaps Bergelt feels they are past that stage, but it hasn't be
communicated to us.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

It is my understanding that Borgelt has been testing the instrument with local and experienced pilots for quite some time. Just because they are not located in this country does not mean they are not being tested.

I have an AirGlide vario that I am very pleased with- at least in comparison to other current and past instruments. Although it is somewhat unclear how signals from the inertial platform are incorporated/filtered in the displays, utilizing this real-time data makes a much more useful instrument compared to the long delays associated with pneumatic-dedicated approaches and spurious influences from inertial effects and atmospheric gusting.

Mike Borgelt's stated goal to address the problems associated with the airmass contained in the vertical plumbing of modern systems could yield another significant improvement. We'll have to see.

There is a significant need for another type of soaring instrument altogether which has never been addressed in the market. Paul MacCready, Taras Kicenicuk and I were able to successfully implement such a system in some DARPA funded work in 2002. This is not directly applicable to soaring due to IGC rules re autopilot type controls. To be especially useful within IGC parameters, the pilot interface needs to be sublime and the way it integrates with state of the art TE varios would prove essential. I'm supposed to be retired, but have been kicking some ideas around about doing it. Chip Garner and I would likely work the project together. Ideally, someone younger with lots of energy, marketing and business skills could enter the picture and do something significant with it. I've done my own business and marketing with 5 successful start-ups but don't want to spend the time now. I'm retired, I'm getting to fly more, and I'm traveling.

At the present, I'm stuck while recovering from some recent surgery. Which is why I'm posting to RAS more in the past week or two than the last decade or so. And maybe the influence of some pain meds? :-)

Gary Osoba

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 8:12:10 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> It is my understanding that Borgelt has been testing the instrument with local and experienced pilots for quite some time. Just because they are not located in this country does not mean they are not being tested.
>
> I have an AirGlide vario that I am very pleased with- at least in comparison to other current and past instruments. Although it is somewhat unclear how signals from the inertial platform are incorporated/filtered in the displays, utilizing this real-time data makes a much more useful instrument compared to the long delays associated with pneumatic-dedicated approaches and spurious influences from inertial effects and atmospheric gusting.
>
> Mike Borgelt's stated goal to address the problems associated with the airmass contained in the vertical plumbing of modern systems could yield another significant improvement. We'll have to see.
>
> There is a significant need for another type of soaring instrument altogether which has never been addressed in the market. Paul MacCready, Taras Kicenicuk and I were able to successfully implement such a system in some DARPA funded work in 2002. This is not directly applicable to soaring due to IGC rules re autopilot type controls. To be especially useful within IGC parameters, the pilot interface needs to be sublime and the way it integrates with state of the art TE varios would prove essential. I'm supposed to be retired, but have been kicking some ideas around about doing it. Chip Garner and I would likely work the project together. Ideally, someone younger with lots of energy, marketing and business skills could enter the picture and do something significant with it. I've done my own business and marketing with 5 successful start-ups but don't want to spend the time now. I'm retired, I'm getting to fly more, and I'm traveling.
>
> At the present, I'm stuck while recovering from some recent surgery. Which is why I'm posting to RAS more in the past week or two than the last decade or so. And maybe the influence of some pain meds? :-)
>
> Gary Osoba

Gary, Mike might have been testing the variometer, but I have not seen a single independent article on the performance of the variometer, therefore for me none of it exist. Supposedly a number of pilots are flying with these variometers in Australia, but they are not sharing their experiences.

[[email protected]]

> Gary, Mike might have been testing the variometer, but I have not seen a single independent article on the performance of the variometer, therefore for me none of it exist. Supposedly a number of pilots are flying with these variometers in Australia, but they are not sharing their experiences.

Yes, it would be good to see some results and analysis.

Gary

[Morgan[_2_]]

I have a number of flights with the Dynamis so far in the Nixus, but I don't feel that it is calibrated or working properly yet. Once we get it dialed in and can fairly evaluate it, I'll happily provide some feedback on using it, but so far the only feedback I can offer is that it is a much more complicated installation than just hooking up pitot, static and TE lines and therefore you've got more things to debug. Also not helped by the onset of winter and general lack of thermals for the last 4 months.

Morgan



On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 12:35:14 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Gary, Mike might have been testing the variometer, but I have not seen a single independent article on the performance of the variometer, therefore for me none of it exist. Supposedly a number of pilots are flying with these variometers in Australia, but they are not sharing their experiences.
>
> Yes, it would be good to see some results and analysis.
>
> Gary

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 8:39:31 AM UTC-5, Jim Hogue wrote:

> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board

From the translation of Air Avionics statement:

>AIR Avionics wants to support interested parties and the open source community, gain further knowledge and software components.

One can dream that the Butterfly tech will find its way into Open Vario eventually.

[Jim Hogue]

Interesting that you mentioned this.

I built my Open Vario a couple of years ago with the sensor board, which includes all the normal pressure sensors plus all the necessary accelerometers for full motion measurements, with this in mind. I had great plans to code up the equations of motion, and use a kind of model following algorithm by Kalman filters to extract air mass data. Before retiring, I supervised a group of engineers who did essentially this to analyze flight test data for a fast jet program I worked on, it worked great. It is some pretty serious math, though, and I quickly found that it would take a whole lotta learning for this dimming mind to get this done solo. Plus the learning to code and implement into the OV, easier but still time needed. Plus the flight testing and development to get it to work right, this would take the most time and effort of all. Definitely could be done, though, I believe. Years of work probably.

I decided I ought to get some quality soaring in while I still can, so it has been back-burnered.

Anybody out there want to take on this sort of project with an OpenVario? I could pretty easily build another one for that purpose....

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 4:28:40 PM UTC-5, Morgan wrote:
> I have a number of flights with the Dynamis so far in the Nixus, but I don't feel that it is calibrated or working properly yet. Once we get it dialed in and can fairly evaluate it, I'll happily provide some feedback on using it, but so far the only feedback I can offer is that it is a much more complicated installation than just hooking up pitot, static and TE lines and therefore you've got more things to debug. Also not helped by the onset of winter and general lack of thermals for the last 4 months.
>
> Morgan
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 12:35:14 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Gary, Mike might have been testing the variometer, but I have not seen a single independent article on the performance of the variometer, therefore for me none of it exist. Supposedly a number of pilots are flying with these variometers in Australia, but they are not sharing their experiences.
> >
> > Yes, it would be good to see some results and analysis.
> >
> > Gary

Morgan, thank you for your post and please report back any new findings, most appreciated!

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:20:58 AM UTC-5, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Interesting that you mentioned this.
It is some pretty serious math, though, and I quickly found that it would take a whole lotta learning for this dimming mind to get this done solo. Plus the learning to code and implement into the OV, easier but still time needed. Plus the flight testing and development to get it to work right, this would take the most time and effort of all. Definitely could be done, though, I believe. Years of work probably.<

One can dream that the Butterfly code will be Open Sourced if they don't find a buyer that wants to make a commercial retail product of it.

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 01:46:37 UTC+2, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:20:58 AM UTC-5, Jim Hogue wrote:
> > Interesting that you mentioned this.
> It is some pretty serious math, though, and I quickly found that it would take a whole lotta learning for this dimming mind to get this done solo. Plus the learning to code and implement into the OV, easier but still time needed. Plus the flight testing and development to get it to work right, this would take the most time and effort of all. Definitely could be done, though, I believe. Years of work probably.<
>
> One can dream that the Butterfly code will be Open Sourced if they don't find a buyer that wants to make a commercial retail product of it.

Air Glide S ISU has 14 sensors in it. I doubt just a code will help you. Kind of sad that interest for this appeared the moment it was taken out of production.

[Jim Hogue]

Does anyone know exactly what the 14 sensors are in the Air Glide ISU? I will guess:

3 axis accelerations
3 axis rates
3 axis magnetometers
Static pressure
Total pressure
Total energy probe pressure (differential, actually redundant to Static and Total if you know or are willing to compensate for the aircraft’s position errors)
Outside air temperature
GPS

Please correct me if I have guessed wrong.

OpenVario with sensor board has most of these but lacks the GPS (but is routinely connected to FLARM etc.), OAT (input hardware for a probe exists but I am unaware of if it has ever been used), and the magnetometers (I am sure a magnetometer module could be designed or an existing one adapted to plug into one of the OV’s available input ports). With a bit more work, I think the OpenVario could host all the necessary sensors.

But of course, a huge task is to create a display which will pleasingly and effectively communicate the airmass information to the pilot so he can use it effectively. This by itself is a huge challenge. There are good ideas already in use out there, but I suspect improvements could be made.

Lots of challenging and interesting work to be done. Any takers?

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Jim Hogue]

Hmmmmm, I am tempted to talk to the Air Avionics folk at the upcoming SSA Convention. But the last thing I need is another big big big project....

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 5:39:31 AM UTC-8, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

The best Vario among the responders, too bad it is out of production.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jim Hogue wrote on 1/28/2020 2:30 AM:
> Hmmmmm, I am tempted to talk to the Air Avionics folk at the upcoming SSA Convention. But the last thing I need is another big big big project....

Here's smaller, related project with a quicker payoff: figure out the best ways to
use the Air Glide S for thermals, convergences, and finding wave; also, determine
what settings are needed to optimize it's performance. While you are doing this,
blog it, discuss it on the (not yet in operation) Glide S owners group, or add it
to the (not yet in operation) Glide S Operation website.

I'm not joking, because the Glide S manual barely covers the basics, and while
many of the owners use it very successfully, all that knowledge is not gathered in
one place where it's easy to access and discuss. Not only would it make the
instrument more valuable to us owners, but possibly, just maybe, it might rekindle
commercial interest in it. I'd be happy to help, and I already have stuff gleaned
from Fitch and others.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:13:38 AM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jim Hogue wrote on 1/28/2020 2:30 AM:
> > Hmmmmm, I am tempted to talk to the Air Avionics folk at the upcoming SSA Convention. But the last thing I need is another big big big project....
>
> Here's smaller, related project with a quicker payoff: figure out the best ways to
> use the Air Glide S for thermals, convergences, and finding wave; also, determine
> what settings are needed to optimize it's performance. While you are doing this,
> blog it, discuss it on the (not yet in operation) Glide S owners group, or add it
> to the (not yet in operation) Glide S Operation website.
>
> I'm not joking, because the Glide S manual barely covers the basics, and while
> many of the owners use it very successfully, all that knowledge is not gathered in
> one place where it's easy to access and discuss. Not only would it make the
> instrument more valuable to us owners, but possibly, just maybe, it might rekindle
> commercial interest in it. I'd be happy to help, and I already have stuff gleaned
> from Fitch and others.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Eric,

I'm in for a Glide S user group.

Craig

[[email protected]]

>
> I'm in for a Glide S user group.
>
Definitely.

In terms of opening the s/w it would be neat to know what's on the CAN bus.
That might permit just recording the IMU data and using it for what-if experiments after a flight.

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 12:25:09 UTC+2, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Does anyone know exactly what the 14 sensors are in the Air Glide ISU? I will guess:
>
> 3 axis accelerations
> 3 axis rates
> 3 axis magnetometers
> Static pressure
> Total pressure
> Total energy probe pressure (differential, actually redundant to Static and Total if you know or are willing to compensate for the aircraft’s position errors)
> Outside air temperature
> GPS
>
> Please correct me if I have guessed wrong.

You are most probably right.

>
> OpenVario with sensor board has most of these but lacks the GPS (but is routinely connected to FLARM etc.), OAT (input hardware for a probe exists but I am unaware of if it has ever been used), and the magnetometers (I am sure a magnetometer module could be designed or an existing one adapted to plug into one of the OV’s available input ports). With a bit more work, I think the OpenVario could host all the necessary sensors.
>
> But of course, a huge task is to create a display which will pleasingly and effectively communicate the airmass information to the pilot so he can use it effectively. This by itself is a huge challenge. There are good ideas already in use out there, but I suspect improvements could be made.
>
> Lots of challenging and interesting work to be done. Any takers?
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

Well I disagree of the problem, world is full of excellent displays and coding nice graphics is not an issue. The real problem is to get the inertial platform so good that you can actually do something useful with it.

[[email protected]]

I've flown ~500 hours on mine, never been happy with it's performance as a variometer, inferior to my mechanical Winter, but the instant wind has saved me from two outlandings. It only needs to be a bit less noisy and there'd be real value in an alarm when the wind suddenly changes >30 degrees or >10kts within a few minutes.

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 6:26:01 PM UTC+13, krasw wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 January 2020 12:25:09 UTC+2, Jim Hogue wrote:
> > Does anyone know exactly what the 14 sensors are in the Air Glide ISU? I will guess:
> >
> > 3 axis accelerations
> > 3 axis rates
> > 3 axis magnetometers
> > Static pressure
> > Total pressure
> > Total energy probe pressure (differential, actually redundant to Static and Total if you know or are willing to compensate for the aircraft’s position errors)
> > Outside air temperature
> > GPS
> >
> > Please correct me if I have guessed wrong.
>
> You are most probably right.
>
> >
> > OpenVario with sensor board has most of these but lacks the GPS (but is routinely connected to FLARM etc.), OAT (input hardware for a probe exists but I am unaware of if it has ever been used), and the magnetometers (I am sure a magnetometer module could be designed or an existing one adapted to plug into one of the OV’s available input ports). With a bit more work, I think the OpenVario could host all the necessary sensors.
> >
> > But of course, a huge task is to create a display which will pleasingly and effectively communicate the airmass information to the pilot so he can use it effectively. This by itself is a huge challenge. There are good ideas already in use out there, but I suspect improvements could be made.
> >
> > Lots of challenging and interesting work to be done. Any takers?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
>
> Well I disagree of the problem, world is full of excellent displays and coding nice graphics is not an issue. The real problem is to get the inertial platform so good that you can actually do something useful with it.

[Jim Hogue]

Yes, you are absolutely correct that the real problem is to get the inertial platform good enough to produce useful derived information. The difficulty with the display in my mind is making a human friendly interface that gets the (novel and new, not your everyday vario) information across to the pilot in a pleasing and instantly recognizable and usable way. Maybe I am overthinking that.

Cheers,
Jim J6

[Jim Hogue]

Hello, everyone,

As most of you following this string are probably aware, a new group has been formed for the Air Avionics Butterfly Vario system. I suggest that all future discussion on the Butterfly be done there. It is "Butterfly Vario - Air Glide Display S" Google Group

I have bought a Butterfly Vario for my ASH-26E, looking forward to installing and using it this season.

Thanks everyone for all the great input.

Cheers,
Jim J6




On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:39:31 AM UTC-6, Jim Hogue wrote:
> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it would fit in one 57mm hole.
>
> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course, head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>
> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>
> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give, but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>
> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that also.
>
> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 05:33:09 -0800, Jim Hogue wrote:

> Hello, everyone,
>
> As most of you following this string are probably aware, a new group has
> been formed for the Air Avionics Butterfly Vario system. I suggest that
> all future discussion on the Butterfly be done there. It is "Butterfly
> Vario - Air Glide Display S" Google Group
>
> I have bought a Butterfly Vario for my ASH-26E, looking forward to
> installing and using it this season.
>
> Thanks everyone for all the great input.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim J6
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:39:31 AM UTC-6, Jim Hogue wrote:
>> Any suggestions? Either currently available or coming in the near
>> future (next year or so) would be ok, I am not in a rush. Prefer it
>> would fit in one 57mm hole.
>>
>> I take care of navigation and tasks with other standalone devices (full
>> on OpenVario with its own vario/STF sensor board, and a Kobo backup) so
>> I don’t really need any nav functions. Above all I want the best total
>> energy and gust compensated technology available, the best to allow me
>> to understand airmass movement while cruising across the full speed
>> range. I want MacReady speed-to-fly function (although I use that as
>> advisory information only, I don’t aggressively dolphin fly...). I also
>> need climb/cruise and airmass awareness audio functionality of course,
>> head-out-of-the-cockpit being best.
>>
>> I fly an ASH-26E, and I would prefer a system that can work off just
>> pitot and static, avoiding the vertical fin mounted TE probe (which
>> gets hammered during engine runs). This is because thermalling during
>> powered climb can be important to me when flying out of high density
>> altitude airports. But if using the TE probe gets me significantly
>> better airmass awareness in cruise, I would take that.
>>
>> I am attracted to the FLARM voice warnings that the S8/S10 units give,
>> but I would do without this in order to get the best airmass awareness.
>>
>> My OpenVario gives me a thermalling assist graphic which seems to work
>> great, but if the new system offers improvement here I would like that
>> also.
>>
>> Please offer you experiences and knowledge here. Thanks in advance!
>
What's its NNTP name?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Jim White[_3_]]

Arse and eyes??

[Jim Hogue]

Martin, I don't know what the NNTP name is for the Butterfly Vario group, I am new to this. I sent you a direct invitation to the group. Hope you get it....

Cheers,
Jim J6


On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 8:02:30 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 05:33:09 -0800, Jim Hogue wrote:
>
> > Hello, everyone,
> >
> > As most of you following this string are probably aware, a new group has
> > been formed for the Air Avionics Butterfly Vario system. I suggest that
> > all future discussion on the Butterfly be done there. It is "Butterfly
> > Vario - Air Glide Display S" Google Group
> >
> > I have bought a Butterfly Vario for my ASH-26E, looking forward to
> > installing and using it this season.
> >
> > Thanks everyone for all the great input.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jim J6
> >
> >



> >
> What's its NNTP name?
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jim White wrote on 1/29/2020 7:06 AM:
> Arse and eyes??
>
Even 40 years of soaring thousands of hours, I find most varios, and especially
the Glide S, are superior to my arse and eyes. Not in every situation, but
overall, you'd want the Glide S on the panel instead of me in the back seat.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 12:28:22 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jim White wrote on 1/29/2020 7:06 AM:
> > Arse and eyes??
> >
> Even 40 years of soaring thousands of hours, I find most varios, and especially
> the Glide S, are superior to my arse and eyes. Not in every situation, but
> overall, you'd want the Glide S on the panel instead of me in the back seat.
>

My experience is the opposite. The vario is there to confirm and quantify what I have already felt.
UH