Glider electrics etc

[Colin Roney]

I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider
electrics and navigation installation stuff but I am very keen
to try and correct the situation. Does anyone have any
ideas for suggested reading in order to try and understand
the subject.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 10:21:13 +0000, Colin Roney wrote:

> I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider electrics and
> navigation installation stuff but I am very keen to try and correct the
> situation. Does anyone have any ideas for suggested reading in order to
> try and understand the subject.

I'll be at the club this Saturday (AM LPA duty) if the airfield is dry
enough to be usable. We can talk then if that suits you and I can bring
my panel up as well if you'd like to look at it.

When I got my Libelle, I rebuilt its panel so that:

- The panel is easy to remove from the glider.

- It connects to the power lead from the battery via an XLR plug.
The radio-related connections to a PTT on the stick and mic +
speaker on the cockpit sidewall use small round connectors with
retaining screw rings. The antenna has a Belling-Lee flying
connector to the built-in glider antenna cable.
Lastly, I use a quick-disconnect on the pneumatics (static, TE, pitot).

- I used XLR connectors for all main power connections.

- I fitted quick-blow fuses at the battery and at the panel.

- Everything in the panel that uses power has connectors (D-9 or D-15)
so that any instrument can be removed without cutting wires or
(un)soldering.

- all interconnects and the 12v-5v converter, which powers the Medion
PNA that runs LK8000, are inside a small metal box with ferrites on
the power lead for the PNA.

- once all instruments are out, the remaining wiring can also be removed
without cutting wires or unsoldering.

- NO BARE CONTACTS visible.

The ASW-20 I used to have was a nightmare behind the panel, with all
connectors soldered onto a couple of tag strips which were not easily
removable, had no insulation whatever and were was not labelled. There
were no fuses on the panel. I learned what not to do from that and got
some better ideas, especially having an interconnection box from looking
at Alan Head's neat wiring in his glider.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 5:30:05 AM UTC-5, Colin Roney wrote:
> I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider
> electrics and navigation installation stuff but I am very keen
> to try and correct the situation. Does anyone have any
> ideas for suggested reading in order to try and understand
> the subject.

The best I've seen is John DeRosa's http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#wiring . A lot of other great content on his site.

Dan

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 11:32 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 10:21:13 +0000, Colin Roney wrote:
>
>> I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider electrics and
>> navigation installation stuff but I am very keen to try and correct the
>> situation. Does anyone have any ideas for suggested reading in order to
>> try and understand the subject.
>
<Snip>
>The antenna has a Belling-Lee flying
> connector to the built-in glider antenna cable.
>
I would argue very much against the use of Belling-Lee connectors. For a
start they are not Moisture-Proof and moisture between inner and outer
conductors gives ****-poor performance.

Use BNC (or TNC) antenna connectors assuming your cable is UR43 or similar.
But whatever you use, it must provide an air-tight seal, connected or not.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:29:32 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> At 11:32 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 10:21:13 +0000, Colin Roney wrote:
>>
>>> I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider electrics and
>>> navigation installation stuff but I am very keen to try and correct
>>> the situation. Does anyone have any ideas for suggested reading in
>>> order to try and understand the subject.
>>
> <Snip>
>>The antenna has a Belling-Lee flying
>> connector to the built-in glider antenna cable.
>>
> I would argue very much against the use of Belling-Lee connectors. For a
> start they are not Moisture-Proof and moisture between inner and outer
> conductors gives ****-poor performance.
>
> Use BNC (or TNC) antenna connectors assuming your cable is UR43 or
> similar.
> But whatever you use, it must provide an air-tight seal, connected or
> not.
>
I realise having an inline Belling-Lee connector isn't ideal, the more so
as it only connects to a 50cm extension with a BNF plug on the radio end.

This setup was in the Libelle when I bought it, seems to work OK, and so
it has stayed there. The short extension is necessary because otherwise
the cable wouldn't reach the radio, let alone allow the panel to slide
out far enough to connect or disconnect it from the radio.

I've thought about replacing it, but the free end of the original cable
is in under the front coaming, too short to reach daylight. I'm not keen
on making a solder joint in there, which would probably be no better
electrically than leaving the Belling-Lee in place. Last but not least, I
don't fancy pulling and replacing the entire cable either.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

> ideas for suggested reading in order to try and understand
> the subject.

Perhaps not an introduction, but reading selected sections of AC43.13 -1 and -2 is a fair knowledge base.

I'd also second John DeRosa's web site.

[Benedict Smith]

At 16:34 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:29:32 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace
wrote:
>.
>>
>I realise having an inline Belling-Lee connector isn't ideal, the
more so
>as it only connects to a 50cm extension with a BNF plug on the
radio end.
>
>This setup was in the Libelle when I bought it, seems to work
OK, and so
>it has stayed there. The short extension is necessary because
otherwise
>the cable wouldn't reach the radio, let alone allow the panel to
slide
>out far enough to connect or disconnect it from the radio.
>
>I've thought about replacing it, but the free end of the original
cable
>is in under the front coaming, too short to reach daylight. I'm
not keen
>on making a solder joint in there, which would probably be no
better
>electrically than leaving the Belling-Lee in place. Last but not
least, I
>don't fancy pulling and replacing the entire cable either.
>
>
>--
If the connector doesn’t need to come apart then you could simply
wrap it in a couple of turns of self amalgamating tape, that would
be totally waterproof and airtight, also it can be cut off if you did
need to disconnect it.
Ben.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:04:13 +0000, Benedict Smith wrote:

> At 16:34 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:29:32 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace
> wrote:
>>.
>>>
>>I realise having an inline Belling-Lee connector isn't ideal, the
> more so
>>as it only connects to a 50cm extension with a BNF plug on the
> radio end.
>>
>>This setup was in the Libelle when I bought it, seems to work
> OK, and so
>>it has stayed there. The short extension is necessary because
> otherwise
>>the cable wouldn't reach the radio, let alone allow the panel to
> slide
>>out far enough to connect or disconnect it from the radio.
>>
>>I've thought about replacing it, but the free end of the original
> cable
>>is in under the front coaming, too short to reach daylight. I'm
> not keen
>>on making a solder joint in there, which would probably be no
> better
>>electrically than leaving the Belling-Lee in place. Last but not
> least, I
>>don't fancy pulling and replacing the entire cable either.
>>
>>
>>--
> If the connector doesn’t need to come apart then you could simply wrap
> it in a couple of turns of self amalgamating tape, that would be totally
> waterproof and airtight, also it can be cut off if you did need to
> disconnect it.
> Ben.

Sounds good to me. Thanks.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[2G]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-8, Colin Roney wrote:
> I admit I am a total dummy when it comes to glider
> electrics and navigation installation stuff but I am very keen
> to try and correct the situation. Does anyone have any
> ideas for suggested reading in order to try and understand
> the subject.

The FAA has several aviation maintenance technician handbooks that are excellent and, better yet, they're FREE:
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/
Ch. 12 of the general handbook and Ch. 9 of Vol. 1 cover electrical subjects.

Tom

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 22:06:34 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> At 19:52 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:04:13 +0000, Benedict Smith wrote:
>>
>>> At 16:34 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:29:32 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace
>>> wrote:
>>>>.
>>>>>
>>>>I realise having an inline Belling-Lee connector isn't ideal, the
>>> more so
>>>>as it only connects to a 50cm extension with a BNF plug on the
>>> radio end.
>>>>
>>>>This setup was in the Libelle when I bought it, seems to work
>>> OK, and so
>>>>it has stayed there. The short extension is necessary because
>>> otherwise
>>>>the cable wouldn't reach the radio, let alone allow the panel to
>>> slide
>>>>out far enough to connect or disconnect it from the radio.
>>>>
>>>>I've thought about replacing it, but the free end of the original
>>> cable
>>>>is in under the front coaming, too short to reach daylight. I'm
>>> not keen
>>>>on making a solder joint in there, which would probably be no
>>> better
>>>>electrically than leaving the Belling-Lee in place. Last but not
>>> least, I
>>>>don't fancy pulling and replacing the entire cable either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>> If the connector doesn’t need to come apart then you could simply
> wrap
>>> it in a couple of turns of self amalgamating tape, that would be
> totally
>>> waterproof and airtight, also it can be cut off if you did need to
>>> disconnect it.
>>> Ben.
>>
>>Sounds good to me. Thanks.
>>
>>--
>>Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>
>>
> I have always prefered Internally-Glued Heat-Shrink over Tape.
>
> But getting back to the original posting, we should never recommend
> Belling-Lee and only use where there is no alternative.
>
> Tim Newport-Peace >
> http://www.newportpeace.co.uk/icom.htm

Agreed - obviously an extra 50cm of uncut cable with just a BNF on the
end would be a lot better, but, as I said, I really don't want to mess
about with soldering etc in mid-air on a piece of cable that comes out
near the front end of the right side instrument panel support channel.

However, if you can point me at a description of how to to use
'Internally-Glued Heat-Shrink over Tape' after, presumably, soldering the
internal wire ends together, that would be interesting to know. Would it
be easier than making upo some sort of clip to lock the B-L halves
together?

I do have a surprisingly good Weller battery-driven soldering iron so at
least there are is no power lead on the iron to fight with. Who'd a thunk
you could make a good solder joint using only 4 x AA alkalines?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 00:24 06 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 22:06:34 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>
>> At 19:52 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:04:13 +0000, Benedict Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 16:34 05 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>>On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:29:32 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>I realise having an inline Belling-Lee connector isn't ideal, the
>>>> more so
>>>>>as it only connects to a 50cm extension with a BNF plug on the
>>>> radio end.
>>>>>
>>>>>This setup was in the Libelle when I bought it, seems to work
>>>> OK, and so
>>>>>it has stayed there. The short extension is necessary because
>>>> otherwise
>>>>>the cable wouldn't reach the radio, let alone allow the panel to
>>>> slide
>>>>>out far enough to connect or disconnect it from the radio.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've thought about replacing it, but the free end of the original
>>>> cable
>>>>>is in under the front coaming, too short to reach daylight. I'm
>>>> not keen
>>>>>on making a solder joint in there, which would probably be no
>>>> better
>>>>>electrically than leaving the Belling-Lee in place. Last but not
>>>> least, I
>>>>>don't fancy pulling and replacing the entire cable either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>> If the connector doesn’t need to come apart then you could simply
>> wrap
>>>> it in a couple of turns of self amalgamating tape, that would be
>> totally
>>>> waterproof and airtight, also it can be cut off if you did need to
>>>> disconnect it.
>>>> Ben.
>>>
>>>Sounds good to me. Thanks.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>>
>>>
>> I have always prefered Internally-Glued Heat-Shrink over Tape.
>>
>> But getting back to the original posting, we should never recommend
>> Belling-Lee and only use where there is no alternative.
>>
>> Tim Newport-Peace
>> http://www.newportpeace.co.uk/icom.htm
>
>Agreed - obviously an extra 50cm of uncut cable with just a BNF on the
>end would be a lot better, but, as I said, I really don't want to mess
>about with soldering etc in mid-air on a piece of cable that comes out
>near the front end of the right side instrument panel support channel.
>
>However, if you can point me at a description of how to to use
>'Internally-Glued Heat-Shrink over Tape' after, presumably, soldering the

>internal wire ends together, that would be interesting to know. Would it
>be easier than making upo some sort of clip to lock the B-L halves
>together?

I had in mind sleving the Belling Lee with Heatshrink and the internal glue
will seal to the outer of the co-ax eat each end. That should be
moisture-proof. I would Never suggest splicing co-ax.

However, another possible solution would be to use:
https://tinyurl.com/tseyff8 or similar. No Soldering required.

I don't particularly like these, but I like Belling Lee even less. At least
you will be using a 50Ohm connector which is moisture proof.
>

Tim Newport-Peace >
http://www.newportpeace.co.uk/icom.htm

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 11:38:38 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

> I had in mind sleving the Belling Lee with Heatshrink and the internal
> glue will seal to the outer of the co-ax eat each end. That should be
> moisture-proof. I would Never suggest splicing co-ax.
>
Ah Ha! A simple fix that never occurred to me.
Sticky heat-shrink ordered.
Thanks.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 13:28 06 February 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 11:38:38 +0000, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
>
>> I had in mind sleving the Belling Lee with Heatshrink and the internal
>> glue will seal to the outer of the co-ax eat each end. That should be
>> moisture-proof. I would Never suggest splicing co-ax.
>>
>Ah Ha! A simple fix that never occurred to me.
>Sticky heat-shrink ordered.
>Thanks.
>
>--
>Martin | martin at
>Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
Don't be in too much of a hurry. Let the warmer weather(?) dry out any
moisture present or you will just be sealing the moisture in ;¬)
>
Tim Newport-Peace >
http://www.newportpeace.co.uk/icom.htm

[[email protected]]

Are you talking about a a disconnect on a wire going to a GPS antenna ?
Sorry about my ignorance regarding anything electrical.
Dan

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 07:50:40 -0800, crosscountryboxco wrote:

> Are you talking about a a disconnect on a wire going to a GPS antenna ?
> Sorry about my ignorance regarding anything electrical.
>
No, we're talking abut the radio antenna.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Thanks !
What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires. What connector would you use ?
Dan

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 17:32 06 February 2020, wrote:
>Thanks !
>What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna
>wires. What connector would you use ?
>Dan
>
Certainly NOT Belling Lee.

GPS uses a much higher frequency and you can't afford to take liberties.

The connector to use depends on the cable size. Be guided by the connector
than connects the antenna to the GPS receiver.

[Dan Marotta]

On GPS antennae, for what it's worth:

I opened a GPS puck antenna used for my PowerFlarm Portable, unsoldered
the wires, cut the coax to the required length and soldered the center
conductor and shield to the correct locations. I often had GPS dropouts
on the Flarm.Â* I recently removed that antenna and, using the internal
antenna on the portable unit, have had no more drop outs.Â* Just sayin'...

On 2/6/2020 10:32 AM, wrote:
> Thanks !
> What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires. What connector would you use ?
> Dan

--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:32:50 -0800, crosscountryboxco wrote:

> Thanks !
> What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna
> wires. What connector would you use ?

I suppose that depends on what you're connecting the GPS antenna to and
what sort of connection it uses.

My RedBox FLARM has a BNF socket for the GPS puck connection. The
supplied puck had way to much wire for my installation, so I cut the wire
on a Gilsson puck down to 150mm (6") and soldered a right-angle BNF plug
onto it. The FLARM system works perfectly.

OTOH my EW logger uses a small brass? gold-plated? screw-on antenna
connection. I didn't have ant replacements, so this time I wound the
excess cable up into a neat 'donut' secured with a couple of cable ties,
clipped the supplied ferrite core over the logger end, connected it all
up and again it works very well.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Thanks for pointing to my presentation on wiring at http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#wiring. Please let me know if there are corrections to be made (and there are ALL-WAYS corrections to be made).

Also, not to toot my own horn too loudly, but I will be speaking on this topic at the 2020 SSA Convention in Little Rock, Arkansas on Saturday, Feb 22 at 1:30PM in Ballroom B. I really don't want to find myself speaking only to the hotel security staff so I truly hope to see and meet all of you there!

- John DeRosa OHM Ω

[Colin Roney]

At 22:40 06 February 2020,
John_DeRosa_OHM_Ω_http://aviation.derosaweb.net
wrote:
>Thanks for pointing to my presentation on wiring at
>http://aviation.derosaw=
>eb.net/presentations/#wiring. Please let me know if
there are corrections
>=
>to be made (and there are ALL-WAYS corrections to be
made).
>
>Also, not to toot my own horn too loudly, but I will be
speaking on this
>to=
>pic at the 2020 SSA Convention in Little Rock, Arkansas
on Saturday, Feb
>22=
> at 1:30PM in Ballroom B. I really don't want to find
myself speaking
>only=
> to the hotel security staff so I truly hope to see and
meet all of you
>the=
>re!=20
>
>- John DeRosa OHM =E2=84=A6
>

John, it`s shame that you don`t reside here in the UK as
one of your presentations would, I am sure, create a
stampede of interest. Great website John. Keep it up.

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:32:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> Thanks !
> What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires. What connector would you use ?
> Dan

Dan,

It might be OK to shorten the GPS antenna's coax cable at the puck end (if you are particularly handy with a small tipped soldering iron) - but better to just loosely wrap up the excess cabling. The other end of the cable has the tricky and tiny SMA or MCX coaxial connectors which (unlike BNC and TNC connectors) requires some rather special expertise and tooling.

As to your idea of "cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires [really coax]" I would give a definitive NOT. The beauty of coax is that the outer shield protects the very small signal from interference riding on the inner conductor. Cutting the cable to properly insert a COAXIAL quick disconnect connector on the thin coax can interfere with that protection and is difficult to properly accomplish to say the least. Commercially made quick disconnects of this size are available from Craggy Aero (FLARM only?).

My US$0.02.

John DeRosa OHM

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Saturday, February 8, 2020 at 10:04:03 AM UTC-5, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:32:52 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > Thanks !
> > What about cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires. What connector would you use ?
> > Dan
>
> Dan,
>
> It might be OK to shorten the GPS antenna's coax cable at the puck end (if you are particularly handy with a small tipped soldering iron) - but better to just loosely wrap up the excess cabling. The other end of the cable has the tricky and tiny SMA or MCX coaxial connectors which (unlike BNC and TNC connectors) requires some rather special expertise and tooling.
>
> As to your idea of "cutting and reconnecting (quick disconnect) the GPS antenna wires [really coax]" I would give a definitive NOT. The beauty of coax is that the outer shield protects the very small signal from interference riding on the inner conductor. Cutting the cable to properly insert a COAXIAL quick disconnect connector on the thin coax can interfere with that protection and is difficult to properly accomplish to say the least. Commercially made quick disconnects of this size are available from Craggy Aero (FLARM only?).
>
> My US$0.02.
>
> John DeRosa OHM

The coax is very thin, and the shield is very, very thin. Take care not to pinch the cable while wrapping up ('loosely' in John's words). Sharp corners with any coax should be avoided.

You'll have at least one at your presentation, John, if the weather doesn't slam this Little Rock convention like it did last time...

Dan