Girl Scouts and aviation??

[Montblack]

Over the years I've seen a few Cub Scout / aviation posts on these
newsgroups. I do not recall seeing similar Girl Scout / aviation posts.

Anyone out there have any Girl Scout / aviation stories or experiences?

At our airport, again over the years, I've seen Boy Scout groups around but
no Girl Scouts. Maybe they've been around and I missed them?

Young Eagles weekends at our airport is a different matter, equal number of
boys and girls show up.


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> Anyone out there have any Girl Scout / aviation stories or experiences?
>
> At our airport, again over the years, I've seen Boy Scout groups around
> but no Girl Scouts. Maybe they've been around and I missed them?

It is in the Girl Scout manual that the girls are NOT permitted to fly in
private planes -- period, end of story.

Mary took this ridiculous rule to the highest levels of Girl Scouting, and
was rebuffed at every level. They just regard it as a recklessly dangerous
activity, and will not allow it to be done under their auspices.

Which is one major reason why Mary has disbanded her Girl Scout
troop/den/whatever this year.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blueskies]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:vpm%d.88814$r55.37719@attbi_s52...
>> Anyone out there have any Girl Scout / aviation stories or experiences?
>>
>> At our airport, again over the years, I've seen Boy Scout groups around but no Girl Scouts. Maybe they've been around
>> and I missed them?
>
> It is in the Girl Scout manual that the girls are NOT permitted to fly in private planes -- period, end of story.
>
> Mary took this ridiculous rule to the highest levels of Girl Scouting, and was rebuffed at every level. They just
> regard it as a recklessly dangerous activity, and will not allow it to be done under their auspices.
>
> Which is one major reason why Mary has disbanded her Girl Scout troop/den/whatever this year.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally here a while back. There is a aviation (or
aerospace) badge they can get.

[Steven Barnes]

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vpm%d.88814$r55.37719@attbi_s52...
> >> Anyone out there have any Girl Scout / aviation stories or experiences?
> >>
> >> At our airport, again over the years, I've seen Boy Scout groups around
but no Girl Scouts. Maybe they've been around
> >> and I missed them?
> >
> > It is in the Girl Scout manual that the girls are NOT permitted to fly
in private planes -- period, end of story.
> >
> > Mary took this ridiculous rule to the highest levels of Girl Scouting,
and was rebuffed at every level. They just
> > regard it as a recklessly dangerous activity, and will not allow it to
be done under their auspices.
> >
> > Which is one major reason why Mary has disbanded her Girl Scout
troop/den/whatever this year.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
"Blueskies" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally here
a while back. There is a aviation (or
> aerospace) badge they can get.
>

Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I would
love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a field
trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I wasn't
sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper presentation. I
would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.

Weird.

[David Kazdan]

My department's administrative assistant is a Girl Scout troop leader.
When I offered Young Eagle rides to her troop last summer, she said
exactly what is described here--anything having to do with airplanes is
all right except actually flying in them (I'll assume that taxiing is a
problem, too). She said a trip to the airport with them sitting in the
plane was fine.

The whole thing rather turned me off. I got them model airplane kits
instead. I do buy their cookies.

David

Steven Barnes wrote:
>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> news:vpm%d.88814$r55.37719@attbi_s52...
>
>>>>Anyone out there have any Girl Scout / aviation stories or experiences?
>>>>
>>>>At our airport, again over the years, I've seen Boy Scout groups around
>
> but no Girl Scouts. Maybe they've been around
>
>>>>and I missed them?
>>>
>>>It is in the Girl Scout manual that the girls are NOT permitted to fly
>
> in private planes -- period, end of story.
>
>>>Mary took this ridiculous rule to the highest levels of Girl Scouting,
>
> and was rebuffed at every level. They just
>
>>>regard it as a recklessly dangerous activity, and will not allow it to
>
> be done under their auspices.
>
>>>Which is one major reason why Mary has disbanded her Girl Scout
>
> troop/den/whatever this year.
>
>>>--
>>>Jay Honeck
>>>Iowa City, IA
>>>Pathfinder N56993
>>>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>"Your Aviation Destination"
>>>
>
> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
>>Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally here
>
> a while back. There is a aviation (or
>
>>aerospace) badge they can get.
>>
>
>
> Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I would
> love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a field
> trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
> considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I wasn't
> sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper presentation. I
> would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.
>
> Weird.
>
>

[Kyle Boatright]

<<major snip>>

"Steven Barnes" > wrote in message
om...
> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
> . com...
>>
>> Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally
>> here
> a while back. There is a aviation (or
>> aerospace) badge they can get.
>>
>
> Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I would
> love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a
> field
> trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
> considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I wasn't
> sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper presentation.
> I
> would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.
>
> Weird.

We've faced a similar problem with Boy Scouts. They are not allowed to fly
in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. Makes it tough when the EAA chapter is giving the
rides, and <huge surprise!!> most of the aircraft are Experimental. We've
started telling Scout groups that their members are welcome to come fly at
Young Eagle events, but not to do it as part of an official scout activity -
i.e. no uniform, etc.

Works fine.

KB

[Blueskies]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message ...
>
> <<major snip>>
>
> "Steven Barnes" > wrote in message om...
>> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>>>
>>> Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally here
>> a while back. There is a aviation (or
>>> aerospace) badge they can get.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I would
>> love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a field
>> trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
>> considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I wasn't
>> sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper presentation. I
>> would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.
>>
>> Weird.
>
> We've faced a similar problem with Boy Scouts. They are not allowed to fly in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. Makes it tough
> when the EAA chapter is giving the rides, and <huge surprise!!> most of the aircraft are Experimental. We've started
> telling Scout groups that their members are welcome to come fly at Young Eagle events, but not to do it as part of an
> official scout activity - i.e. no uniform, etc.
>
> Works fine.
>
> KB
>

So Boy Scouts in uniform cannot ride in an experimental aircraft? As long as it is not officially sanctioned by the BSA
or the troop, there should be no concern about what they are wearing...

To take this further, there is a huge perception issue here. The AOPA and EAA should get out and promote aviation at
these associations. I know I have pushed around here to get things going (my daughter is 11 and was a girl scout, troop
broke up). Seems pretty odd that the EAA would even play along under these restrictions; the whole point is to promote
experimental aircraft. Funny how we roll over just to get the numbers up...

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> It is in the Girl Scout manual that the girls are NOT permitted to fly in
> private planes -- period, end of story.

Well, I haven't read the manual, but they had a GS troop show up at a YE flyout
over at Sky Manor last year.

George Patterson
I prefer Heaven for climate but Hell for company.

[Montblack]

("Steven Barnes" wrote)
> Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I would
> love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a
> field
> trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
> considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I wasn't
> sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper presentation.
> I
> would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.


I just gave a Golden Wings Museum (google) tour for a group of 6th and 2nd
graders on Friday. Our normal(?) tours are for high school and college age
kids, mostly aviation programs.

We had an hour to fill (about 2 minutes per plane) plus they got to climb up
in the Bushmaster Tri-Motor - two at a time.

I hadn't had elementary students on a tour before. What to do, what to do,
what to do?

I skipped the plane names, specs, and historical significance, etc and
instead pointed out similarities and differences between the planes, took
questions a mile a minute, and came back to the same plane more than once -
like a treasure hunt for stuff that we were learning on the tour. Don't know
about the kids, but I sure had fun. Actually they had a great time too.


Montblack

[W P Dixon]

Hmmm,
Seems the only thing the Girl Scouts do now days is sell cookies! Between
knocking on your door to hitting you up at the grocery store and Wal Mart!
It's to dang hard to sell cookies at 7000 feet! That must be why they can't
fly!!!

As for the Boy Scouts, myself I can think of nothing better for a troop
to do than to build an airplane together!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Cecil Chapman]

?? Boy scouts can fly, but Girl scouts can't?? Are boys 'more expendable'
than girls? <jeesh>

I'm with you and your wife on this one,,, what nonsense and a major
disservice to the girls. We gotta hire Patty Wagstaffe to get to the head
of the Girl Scouts and kick major butt! <GRIN> <wink>

Just can't get over it; what a wonderful experience to deprive their
daughters, of. :0(

Sad, is what it is.............

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, I haven't read the manual, but they had a GS troop show up at a YE
> flyout
> over at Sky Manor last year.

I'm sure there are plenty of instances where leaders ignore (or are ignorant
of) the national rules. I tried to convince Mary to do the exact same
thing, but -- after careful consideration -- she decided to follow the rules
and fight from within.

She lost.

Bottom line: The Girl Scouts are simply too paranoid about liability to
ever sanction flying in personal airplanes. Face it, they've got a
veritable gold mine with those cookies and (unlike the Boy Scouts) have
millions to lose in any lawsuit.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Kyle Boatright wrote:

>
> We've faced a similar problem with Boy Scouts. They are not allowed to fly
> in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. Makes it tough when the EAA chapter is giving the
> rides, and <huge surprise!!> most of the aircraft are Experimental. We've
> started telling Scout groups that their members are welcome to come fly at
> Young Eagle events, but not to do it as part of an official scout activity -
> i.e. no uniform, etc.

The Boy Sprouts also require a million dollars of liability insurance and
require you to disclose all sorts of stuff (carrier, etc...) prior to allowing
you to fly them.

The school system here had a cow when Margy wanted to announce the YE events
at her school.

[C J Campbell]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> Over the years I've seen a few Cub Scout / aviation posts on these
> newsgroups. I do not recall seeing similar Girl Scout / aviation posts.

Girl Scouts aren't allowed to fly in private aircraft at all. Boy Scouts
have such severe restrictions ($1 million smooth liability, for example)
that they may as well be prohibited as well. Most youth organizations have
become so risk averse that you wonder how they function at all. The Boy
Scouts theoretically have the Aviation Explorers (for both boys and girls),
but try to actually organize a post....

Well, okay. The effect of many of these rules is that some leaders go ahead
and organize the prohibited activity anyway. They won't be covered by the
Scouts' insurance and assume all liability on their own. You could require
parents to sign a release acknowledging that the activity is prohibited by
the Scouting organization.

It isn't just aviation, you know. Restrictions on campfires, sharp objects,
camping, swimming, boating, travel by car, and everything else have pretty
much confined a lot of Scouting units to meeting in churches and either
playing basketball or discussing careers.

[Scott Skylane]

C J Campbell wrote:

/snip/
> It isn't just aviation, you know. Restrictions on campfires, sharp objects,
> camping, swimming, boating, travel by car, and everything else have pretty
> much confined a lot of Scouting units to meeting in churches and either
> playing basketball or discussing careers.
>
>

Just not piloting careers.

[Blueskies]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message ...
>
> As for the Boy Scouts, myself I can think of nothing better for a troop to do than to build an airplane together!
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech

They just won't be able to fly it then, based on what I'm hearing...

[Morgans]

"C J Campbell" > wrote

> The Boy
> Scouts theoretically have the Aviation Explorers (for both boys and
girls),
> but try to actually organize a post....

I am involved in an Aviation Explorer post. It works quite well. It also
works for the other 100 or so Aviation Explorers from all over the country,
that have their own camping base at Air Venture, and work lots of hours at
anything from crowd control, to parking airplanes in the homebuilt showplane
area, to directing taxiway intersections on 18-36. They all actually
managed to belong to an organized post.

Young Eagle rides are permitted. A simple form is all that is needed.
Also, besides going to Oshkosh and working, they work at our local warbirds
airshow, which is fairly big. We also go to at least two major airshows per
year, have ATC tours, museum tours, ski trips. Follow the rules, and it is
not tough, at all.

Form a post. There are good kids anywhere, needing leadership, to get into
aviation.
--
Jim in NC

[Blueskies]

"Morgans" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Young Eagle rides are permitted. A simple form is all that is needed.
> Also, besides going to Oshkosh and working, they work at our local warbirds
> airshow, which is fairly big. We also go to at least two major airshows per
> year, have ATC tours, museum tours, ski trips. Follow the rules, and it is
> not tough, at all.
>
> Form a post. There are good kids anywhere, needing leadership, to get into
> aviation.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

Any truth to the statement that they cannot fly in 'experimental' aircraft?

[Morgans]

"Blueskies" > wrote

> Any truth to the statement that they cannot fly in 'experimental'
aircraft?
>
Absolutely correct.
--
Jim in NC

[W P Dixon]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
om...
>
>
> They just won't be able to fly it then, based on what I'm hearing...
>Yep that's ashame, but maybe just maybe the build would tweak their
>interest in something other than a video game; and actually learn something
>useful. Maybe after they build it they could all just fly it through the
>EAA , and leave the scouts out of that part.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Robert M. Gary]

The EAA provides the 1 million smooth that BSA requires. I've done this
many times, EAA is very familar with working with BSA.

Girl Scouts are another story. No airplanes, no mater what (although
I'm not sure why my box of Girl Scout cookies shows a bunch of girls
sitting in a GA plane)

-Robert
BSA registered leader.

[Robert M. Gary]

Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the $1m
smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time, no problem
with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour permit and a flight
permit and have it signed by council. YOu also need to provide
information such as medical,etc

-Robert
BSA registered leader and CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

When Boy Scout sell stuff its because they want to do cool stuff, like
go to Residence camp and shoot riffles, camp, do archery, etc
When Girl Scouts sell stuff its because they want to rent a hotel room
and stay up late telling stories.
I just don't understand Girl Scouts, but I guess I'm biased.

-Robert,
Registered BSA leader.

[C J Campbell]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the $1m
> smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time, no problem
> with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour permit and a flight
> permit and have it signed by council. YOu also need to provide
> information such as medical,etc

So EAA has the required insurance? I had not been able to find it anywhere
else.

[Newps]

C J Campbell wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the $1m
>>smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time, no problem
>>with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour permit and a flight
>>permit and have it signed by council. YOu also need to provide
>>information such as medical,etc
>
>
> So EAA has the required insurance? I had not been able to find it anywhere
> else.

The insurance is provided as part of your yearly membership fee and is
in effect for young eagles flights only. You must belong to EAA to give
young eagles flights.

[Blanche]

Robert M. Gary > wrote:
>When Boy Scout sell stuff its because they want to do cool stuff, like
>go to Residence camp and shoot riffles, camp, do archery, etc
>When Girl Scouts sell stuff its because they want to rent a hotel room
>and stay up late telling stories.
>I just don't understand Girl Scouts, but I guess I'm biased.

I am pleased as punch that my one and only year in the Girl Scout
environment (as a Brownie) was a dismal failure. And I consider it
a mark of honor that I was tossed out of the troop.

And Mom was the troop leader!

[Ross Richardson]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>>
>> We've faced a similar problem with Boy Scouts. They are not allowed
>> to fly in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. Makes it tough when the EAA chapter
>> is giving the rides, and <huge surprise!!> most of the aircraft are
>> Experimental. We've started telling Scout groups that their members
>> are welcome to come fly at Young Eagle events, but not to do it as
>> part of an official scout activity - i.e. no uniform, etc.
>
>
> The Boy Sprouts also require a million dollars of liability insurance and
> require you to disclose all sorts of stuff (carrier, etc...) prior to
> allowing
> you to fly them.
>
> The school system here had a cow when Margy wanted to announce the YE
> events
> at her school.


Years ago our chapter decided not to fly Boy Scouts as a scout function
because of their rules. We tried to work with the local council and did
not win. We will fly scouts and for merit badges, but they come as
individuals out of uniform. BTW the $1M is covered by national EAA if
the pilot/owner has the mininum insurance.

Ross

[Ross Richardson]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the $1m
>smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time, no problem
>with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour permit and a flight
>permit and have it signed by council. YOu also need to provide
>information such as medical,etc
>
>-Robert
>BSA registered leader and CFI
>
>
>
But the hassel got so bad. The local council required copies of each
pilots, 1) license, 2, logbook, 3, medical, insurance, etc, etc. And all
of this had to be turned in several weeks in advanced. We really didn't
know who the pilots were going to be. Just too much trouble for a FREE ride.

--
Regards,

Ross

[W P Dixon]

ALL RIGHT BLANCHE!!!! You rock girl! I was alittle to dang ornary for the
boy scouts as well. I think I learned more playing war in the big woods than
I would have in the scouts. My buddies Dad was a Green Beret, and he taught
us boys all kinds of cool stuff!!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary > wrote:
>>When Boy Scout sell stuff its because they want to do cool stuff, like
>>go to Residence camp and shoot riffles, camp, do archery, etc
>>When Girl Scouts sell stuff its because they want to rent a hotel room
>>and stay up late telling stories.
>>I just don't understand Girl Scouts, but I guess I'm biased.
>
> I am pleased as punch that my one and only year in the Girl Scout
> environment (as a Brownie) was a dismal failure. And I consider it
> a mark of honor that I was tossed out of the troop.
>
> And Mom was the troop leader!
>
>

[Blueskies]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message ...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>>Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the $1m
>>smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time, no problem
>>with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour permit and a flight
>>permit and have it signed by council. YOu also need to provide
>>information such as medical,etc
>>
>>-Robert
>>BSA registered leader and CFI
>>
>>
> But the hassel got so bad. The local council required copies of each pilots, 1) license, 2, logbook, 3, medical,
> insurance, etc, etc. And all of this had to be turned in several weeks in advanced. We really didn't know who the
> pilots were going to be. Just too much trouble for a FREE ride.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ross
>

And it has to be a production FAA certified airplane...

[skym]

Jay, I believe you but I really want to say "Are you kidding..." the
Girl Scout Manual says they are not permitted to fly in private
planes???!!! Does it really say that? I don't have a GS Manual handy

[John Godwin]

When I tried to get involved with Aviation Exploring (I was the
Aviation Explorer Coordinator for the county BSA Council). I wanted
to line up aviation-related activities (Tower, Center visits and
tours of aviation museums) via short trips in GA aircraft .. no dice.

BSA HQ, at that time, steadfastly felt that these Piper Cubs were
downright dangerous and put so many restrictions that they, in
essence, prohibited flights as part of any Aviation Exploring
program.

Glad to see that things may have changed ... maybe enough of the
folks here abandoning BSA over this issue may have helped change
BSA's mind.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Nothing severe in the BSA insurance restrictions. EAA provies the
> $1m smooth insurance for you for $35/year. I do it all the time,
> no problem with BSA. You just need to fill out both a BSA tour
> permit and a flight permit and have it signed by council. YOu also
> need to provide information such as medical,etc

--

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, I believe you but I really want to say "Are you kidding..." the
> Girl Scout Manual says they are not permitted to fly in private
> planes???!!! Does it really say that? I don't have a GS Manual handy

Sad, but true.

It's in a 1/2 inch thick book of rules called "Safety-wise". This is the
book that spells out ALL the Girl Scout safety regulations, including how
many adults are allowed on road trips, who may drive, etc.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche]

But remember, the rule against flying is only for official, organized
Girl Scout activities....

That's a loophole you can driver a 747 thru...

Which brings up an interesting question....If John Travolta or one
of the executives at Boeing or Airbus offer a field trip to a troop
and the aircraft will be something like a 737, 747, A340, etc.
what's the policy? It's not Part 121. And if it's Travolta, it's
not part 135.

What's the policy?

[Ron]

With the BSA the problem is Lawyers..........Not parents of the kids.



"Blueskies" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> <<major snip>>
>>
>> "Steven Barnes" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
>>> . com...
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, we had many, many Girl Scouts show up at the Young Eagles rally
>>>> here
>>> a while back. There is a aviation (or
>>>> aerospace) badge they can get.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. My ex-wife is leader of my daughter's brownie troop. I
>>> would
>>> love nothing more, than to give a little talk about aviation during a
>>> field
>>> trip to the airport. Let the girls see/touch/sit in the plane. Hadn't
>>> considered any rides, due to too many nervous moms to deal with. I
>>> wasn't
>>> sure where to even look up any info on how to make a proper
>>> presentation. I
>>> would never have thought some manual would prohibit it.
>>>
>>> Weird.
>>
>> We've faced a similar problem with Boy Scouts. They are not allowed to
>> fly in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. Makes it tough when the EAA chapter is
>> giving the rides, and <huge surprise!!> most of the aircraft are
>> Experimental. We've started telling Scout groups that their members are
>> welcome to come fly at Young Eagle events, but not to do it as part of an
>> official scout activity - i.e. no uniform, etc.
>>
>> Works fine.
>>
>> KB
>>
>
> So Boy Scouts in uniform cannot ride in an experimental aircraft? As long
> as it is not officially sanctioned by the BSA or the troop, there should
> be no concern about what they are wearing...
>
> To take this further, there is a huge perception issue here. The AOPA and
> EAA should get out and promote aviation at these associations. I know I
> have pushed around here to get things going (my daughter is 11 and was a
> girl scout, troop broke up). Seems pretty odd that the EAA would even play
> along under these restrictions; the whole point is to promote experimental
> aircraft. Funny how we roll over just to get the numbers up...
>

[Ron]

If a youth is really interested in Aviation I suggest the check out the
local CAP group.

As a Scout Master I have had my Troop to airshows, EAA events, several
Museums, Vandenberg, Travis, Castle, Beale, and Edwards. Just when it comes
to flying I have a note from the parents that they can, but just not in
uniform.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Montblack" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Over the years I've seen a few Cub Scout / aviation posts on these
>> newsgroups. I do not recall seeing similar Girl Scout / aviation posts.
>
> Girl Scouts aren't allowed to fly in private aircraft at all. Boy Scouts
> have such severe restrictions ($1 million smooth liability, for example)
> that they may as well be prohibited as well. Most youth organizations have
> become so risk averse that you wonder how they function at all. The Boy
> Scouts theoretically have the Aviation Explorers (for both boys and
> girls),
> but try to actually organize a post....
>
> Well, okay. The effect of many of these rules is that some leaders go
> ahead
> and organize the prohibited activity anyway. They won't be covered by the
> Scouts' insurance and assume all liability on their own. You could require
> parents to sign a release acknowledging that the activity is prohibited by
> the Scouting organization.
>
> It isn't just aviation, you know. Restrictions on campfires, sharp
> objects,
> camping, swimming, boating, travel by car, and everything else have pretty
> much confined a lot of Scouting units to meeting in churches and either
> playing basketball or discussing careers.
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> But remember, the rule against flying is only for official, organized
> Girl Scout activities....
>
> That's a loophole you can driver a 747 thru...

Really?

> Which brings up an interesting question....If John Travolta or one
> of the executives at Boeing or Airbus offer a field trip to a troop
> and the aircraft will be something like a 737, 747, A340, etc.
> what's the policy? It's not Part 121. And if it's Travolta, it's
> not part 135.
>
> What's the policy?

The policy is that you need to understand the regulations better than you
obviously do.

Large transport aircraft such as the 737 and larger are covered by certain
portions of the transport rules (that is, not just Part 91) even if they are
not flown as commercial operations.

However, I fail to see what the type of aircraft has to do with the
"loophole" you claim exists. The "loophole" isn't a loophole at all, since
an activity that's not an official, organized Girl Scout activity wouldn't
incur any liability risk for the Girl Scouts. It certainly doesn't seem to
have anything to do with the type of the aircraft, or what portions of the
FARs apply to the flights.

How are the two questions related?

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

It's the Young Eagles insurance and it's included in your membership.
They will provide you proof of insurance for BSA. So the insurance
works like this...
1) You carry $1m total with $100,000 per seat (I doubt any aircraft
owner carries less, I don't think you can even buy less)
2) EAA makes that $1m smooth (no seat limit)
3) BSA takes that and adds their $10m smooth (standard for all BSA
"tours" this is why you need the tour permit from BSA before you fly).
If you don't get the tour permit, the BSA leaders who bring the kids
can become personally liable. I always carry my BSA permits anytime I
take the boys outside our general area (10 mile rule).

So you have a $10m smooth policy in the end.

-Robert, CFI & BSA Leader

[Robert M. Gary]

BTW: Here are the BSA forms...
Flight Permit itself http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/forms/23-672.pdf
"Tour Permit" (includes protection for the car ride out, this is VERY
important to BSA) http://www.scouting.org/forms/34426.pdf
The second permit will probably be done by the BSA leader. We all keep
all the car insurance information ,etc ready so its pretty quick to
just put it down on the form (we don't collect that information each
time).

Both permit applications need to be presented to your local council.
Council will sign it and stamp it.

I can tell you of several stores (both BSA and Girl Scouts) where
leaders were sued by parents after kids broke arms, etc on a trip. In
each case the permits were presented to the BSA attorney and they took
it from there.
Remember, these are kids. Many can be impulsive and awkward. The odds
of a kid falling down and getting hurt while walking out to the plane
is actually quite high.
Of course, as you get into the older boys (Adventure Scouts, etc) you
are then dealing with near-adults who are old enough to actually take
lessons.



-Robert

[Dave Stadt]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It's the Young Eagles insurance and it's included in your membership.
> They will provide you proof of insurance for BSA. So the insurance
> works like this...
> 1) You carry $1m total with $100,000 per seat (I doubt any aircraft
> owner carries less, I don't think you can even buy less)
> 2) EAA makes that $1m smooth (no seat limit)
> 3) BSA takes that and adds their $10m smooth (standard for all BSA
> "tours" this is why you need the tour permit from BSA before you fly).
> If you don't get the tour permit, the BSA leaders who bring the kids
> can become personally liable. I always carry my BSA permits anytime I
> take the boys outside our general area (10 mile rule).
>
> So you have a $10m smooth policy in the end.
>
> -Robert, CFI & BSA Leader

The BSA insurance is to cover the BSA and probably won't do diddly for the
pilot.

[Ron]

I have 2 ADHD kids and 1 Downs Syndrome. Funny but most of the time they are
the better ones, it's the 14 or 15 year old who thinks he knows it all......

Have been a SM since 1994, 2 Nat Jambo's, 1 Philmont, all over CA, they
still surprise me.......


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> BTW: Here are the BSA forms...
> Flight Permit itself http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/forms/23-672.pdf
> "Tour Permit" (includes protection for the car ride out, this is VERY
> important to BSA) http://www.scouting.org/forms/34426.pdf
> The second permit will probably be done by the BSA leader. We all keep
> all the car insurance information ,etc ready so its pretty quick to
> just put it down on the form (we don't collect that information each
> time).
>
> Both permit applications need to be presented to your local council.
> Council will sign it and stamp it.
>
> I can tell you of several stores (both BSA and Girl Scouts) where
> leaders were sued by parents after kids broke arms, etc on a trip. In
> each case the permits were presented to the BSA attorney and they took
> it from there.
> Remember, these are kids. Many can be impulsive and awkward. The odds
> of a kid falling down and getting hurt while walking out to the plane
> is actually quite high.
> Of course, as you get into the older boys (Adventure Scouts, etc) you
> are then dealing with near-adults who are old enough to actually take
> lessons.
>
>
>
> -Robert
>

[Ron Natalie]

Ross Richardson wrote:

> Years ago our chapter decided not to fly Boy Scouts as a scout function
> because of their rules. We tried to work with the local council and did
> not win. We will fly scouts and for merit badges, but they come as
> individuals out of uniform. BTW the $1M is covered by national EAA if
> the pilot/owner has the mininum insurance.
>
Yep, and that's how I did it. I was actually flying boy scouts when
my engine blew up. The EAA thanked me for not killing any young eagles.
We didn't bother telling the Boy Scouts.

[Robert M. Gary]

Its to cover the BSA leaders (we're all volunteers). I don't believe
anyone claimed the policy was for the pilot. However, both BSA and EAA
require the parents to sign releases, whatever that is worth.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

John,
Are you still in the Bay Area or did you move out? I know you talked
about moving several years ago.

-Robert

[John Godwin]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Are you still in the Bay Area or did you move out? I know you talked
> about moving several years ago.

Still here .. have you been doing any Angel Flights lately? I'm
currently trying to get to Las Vegas to pick up our plane and fly it
back to RHV. Weather's been a tad iffy here lately.

Been taking a few trips to scout out places to move to .. nothing so
far.

--

[Robert M. Gary]

I haven't done much with Angel Flight. I stopped being an AF CFI after
they told me I needed to sign people off but couldn't fly with them. I
was concerned that I was being exposed to liability since my CFI
insurance doesn't cover giving endorsements w/o flying with the
student.

I've actually been so busy working on my MBA, working, Scout leader,
CFIing, etc I haven't been able to fly any AF missions. I'd like to get
back into it, when I get time though!!

-Robert