Costs of composites

[Pilot Guy]

I am still in the design phase of my original plane. I am looking into a
composite built airplane. Can anyone share insight to the costs of different
composites, and maybe some pro's and con's?

[Denny]

And another dreamer gets the bug... Find your local EAA chapter... Join
it... Get to know the guys and see their projects... You will be more
educated, more enlightened, and more likely to actually finish a
project - and have it actually fly...

[Peter Dohm]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> And another dreamer gets the bug... Find your local EAA chapter... Join
> it... Get to know the guys and see their projects... You will be more
> educated, more enlightened, and more likely to actually finish a
> project - and have it actually fly...
>

Better still, also visit and get to know some of the members of additional
chapters, if there are more than one chapter in your area.

Eight of ten years ago, my chapter appeared to be a "Cozy" chapter, and
has since become more of an "RV" chapter, although there are numerous
other types of aircraft and projects ...

There is little question that a moldless composite is the cheapest form of
construction and the easiest to form into complex shapes; and *if* you
have the skill and mindset work the Burt Rutan used to do, it can also be
the fastest to complete. However, fiber reinforced plastic has some real
quirks. Although it would currently be my material of choice, I would
also need a *lot* of advice before trying to go from the 'doodle pad' to
a physical project.

Back when the Vari Eze's were fairly new, and Burt Rutan was touring
the country and giving seminars; I watched him work at one of them.
That proved, beyond question, that moldless composite is the fastest
possible construction method for 'plans built' or 'custom built' aircraft.

However, the experience of chapter members on their projects suggest
that there are multiple reasons for the project to 'bog down' ...

Also, keep in mind that your building space, especially if you have to rent,
is part of the project cost. Even though, for esthetic reasons, I don't
like
'Hershey Bar' wings; an RV-9 Quick Build can start looking like a very
good value, when you include the rental of a hangar or warehouse.

So, join a chapter. Visit all you can reasonable drive (or fly) to. And
pick as many brains as you can.

[Pilot Guy]

I went to the local chapter. Most of the guys there built an ultralight in
the 60's, and that was it....

I am not saying anything bad about that chapter, or the EAA, but I need a
little more guidance. I am looking at cost verses weight & stength. Any
words of advice besides "Join EAA"?

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Denny" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > And another dreamer gets the bug... Find your local EAA chapter... Join
> > it... Get to know the guys and see their projects... You will be more
> > educated, more enlightened, and more likely to actually finish a
> > project - and have it actually fly...
> >
>
> Better still, also visit and get to know some of the members of additional
> chapters, if there are more than one chapter in your area.
>
> Eight of ten years ago, my chapter appeared to be a "Cozy" chapter, and
> has since become more of an "RV" chapter, although there are numerous
> other types of aircraft and projects ...
>
> There is little question that a moldless composite is the cheapest form of
> construction and the easiest to form into complex shapes; and *if* you
> have the skill and mindset work the Burt Rutan used to do, it can also be
> the fastest to complete. However, fiber reinforced plastic has some real
> quirks. Although it would currently be my material of choice, I would
> also need a *lot* of advice before trying to go from the 'doodle pad' to
> a physical project.
>
> Back when the Vari Eze's were fairly new, and Burt Rutan was touring
> the country and giving seminars; I watched him work at one of them.
> That proved, beyond question, that moldless composite is the fastest
> possible construction method for 'plans built' or 'custom built' aircraft.
>
> However, the experience of chapter members on their projects suggest
> that there are multiple reasons for the project to 'bog down' ...
>
> Also, keep in mind that your building space, especially if you have to
rent,
> is part of the project cost. Even though, for esthetic reasons, I don't
> like
> 'Hershey Bar' wings; an RV-9 Quick Build can start looking like a very
> good value, when you include the rental of a hangar or warehouse.
>
> So, join a chapter. Visit all you can reasonable drive (or fly) to. And
> pick as many brains as you can.
>
>
>

[Ken Finney]

"Pilot Guy" > wrote in message
...
> I went to the local chapter. Most of the guys there built an ultralight in
> the 60's, and that was it....
>
> I am not saying anything bad about that chapter, or the EAA, but I need a
> little more guidance. I am looking at cost verses weight & stength. Any
> words of advice besides "Join EAA"?
>

< snip>

I've been to three local chapters. The first one has about 20 people show
up,
nothing much happens there. The second one has about 30 people show up,
I think I was the only one under 65 (maybe 70), no one was talking about
building anything. The third one has about 60 people show up, everyone is
building something, great conversations before and after the meeting. Guess
which chapter I joined? ;^)

[Peter Dohm]

"Pilot Guy" > wrote in message
...
> I went to the local chapter. Most of the guys there built an ultralight in
> the 60's, and that was it....
>
> I am not saying anything bad about that chapter, or the EAA, but I need a
> little more guidance. I am looking at cost verses weight & stength. Any
> words of advice besides "Join EAA"?

I still think that a chapter, or more than one, is a good starting point for
other people's experience. As you point out, you may finda fairly hide
bound group who are quite content with the past... However, they are
the most easily accessible. EAA headquarters is also a resource for
the members, and they also sell books on composite fabrication; as well
as other methods.

Additional sources that *may* be available could include AE/IA's, some
of the guys in your nearby SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) who
may have some experience with composites in racing cars, and boat
builders (although they may have a nearly total disregard for weight).

I have heard that carbor fiber is/was popular for outer bodies of race
cars; but that it shatters on impact. Apparently very strong and very
stiff, but low energy absorption.

Assuming that you are already very comfortable with the design
requirements, including the attachment of hard points and the transfer of
loads from the wings, tail, and engine to the fuselage; the manufactures
and dealers of the fiber, cloth, and resin will be the best source of prices
as well as any special procedures specific to their products.

By the way, if you are really comfortable with the design requirements
of these highly directional materials and with their attachment to any
necessary mounting hardware or dissimilar materials, evenbefore you
know the weight, cost, and other specifics; then you are probably either
much smarter or much more foolish than the rest of us!

[Jim Carriere]

Pilot Guy wrote:
> I went to the local chapter. Most of the guys there built an ultralight in
> the 60's, and that was it....

Yes, but, did you look into other chapters nearby? For example,
there are two chapters near me- one is about a 45 minute drive, the
other chapter is an hour away. It so happens that farther one's
monthly meetings work much better with my own work schedule. Luckily
both chapters happen to have a variety of construction styles in the
completed projects- tube/fabric, composite, and of course, lots of RVs.

Also, have you tried simply walking into the FBO at any small
airport? I bet you need to talk to just a few people before somebody
knows somebody who can point you to a homebuilder working on their
project. Go in, share some coffee and chatter, and offer to help out
fixing or building whatever on their airplane... seriously, try this out.

> I am not saying anything bad about that chapter, or the EAA, but I need a
> little more guidance. I am looking at cost verses weight & stength. Any
> words of advice besides "Join EAA"?

If you join EAA the members area of their website has a great deal of
articles. It may take you literally a few days to read through
everything.

Also, check out the matronics website:

http://www.matronics.com/emaillists/

It hosts several email lists, and you should find at least one or two
(probably more) to be very suitable to your purpose. Those lists
are also archived on that website, so even without subscribing to any
of the lists you have a few more good days of solid reading.

Keep looking online- try an archives search for this newsgroup.
Google search things like "homebuilt composite design construction,"
I bet you'll find some personal websites with detailed construction
logs. Even the Aircraft Spruce catalog has a few pages of general
info on each major construction method.

Uh, that's just off the top of my head. :)

[COLIN LAMB]

I built my own kayak and canoe and went through the same questions. Because
you often need to carry the kayak and canoe, weight is a big factor.

I got most of my answers at Tap Plastics. Any local plastics outlet will
have the various cloths that would be used, together with books and clerks
who know the various materials.

RVs seems to be popping up everywhere, and that tends to diminish the need
to learn about various materials. So, you may run into a campaign for you
to build an RV if you visit an EAA chapter.

So, visit the kayak websites and any local kayak manufacturers. You should
be able to find a chart of various materials used in constructing kayaks,
and you can visit the websites to see the hype for that material (do not
necessarily believe all of it. Kayaks going through white water need to be
tough.

73, K7FM

[Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired]

COLIN LAMB wrote:

> I built my own kayak and canoe and went through the same questions. Because
> you often need to carry the kayak and canoe, weight is a big factor.
>
> I got most of my answers at Tap Plastics. Any local plastics outlet will
> have the various cloths that would be used, together with books and clerks
> who know the various materials.
>
> RVs seems to be popping up everywhere, and that tends to diminish the need
> to learn about various materials. So, you may run into a campaign for you
> to build an RV if you visit an EAA chapter.
>
> So, visit the kayak websites and any local kayak manufacturers. You should
> be able to find a chart of various materials used in constructing kayaks,
> and you can visit the websites to see the hype for that material (do not
> necessarily believe all of it. Kayaks going through white water need to be
> tough.
>
> 73, K7FM
>
>
I would think it's a different kind of toughness what with bouncing off
of boulders and all.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Peter Dohm]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> Pilot Guy wrote:
> > I went to the local chapter. Most of the guys there built an ultralight
in
> > the 60's, and that was it....
>
> Yes, but, did you look into other chapters nearby? For example,
> there are two chapters near me- one is about a 45 minute drive, the
> other chapter is an hour away. It so happens that farther one's
> monthly meetings work much better with my own work schedule. Luckily
> both chapters happen to have a variety of construction styles in the
> completed projects- tube/fabric, composite, and of course, lots of RVs.
>
> Also, have you tried simply walking into the FBO at any small
> airport? I bet you need to talk to just a few people before somebody
> knows somebody who can point you to a homebuilder working on their
> project. Go in, share some coffee and chatter, and offer to help out
> fixing or building whatever on their airplane... seriously, try this out.
>
You expressed it a lot better than I did, and the local airport is also a
great idea on more than one level. In addition to the projects in work,
some of the pilots may have experience with aircraft having the same
'optomizations' that a would-be designer is considering--their advice
will be opinionated, and will also give a preview of some limitations.
(A frequent example is that canard designs are very forgiving in flight;
but like lots of runway, and pushers like it paved... )

> > I am not saying anything bad about that chapter, or the EAA, but I need
a
> > little more guidance. I am looking at cost verses weight & stength. Any
> > words of advice besides "Join EAA"?
>
> If you join EAA the members area of their website has a great deal of
> articles. It may take you literally a few days to read through
> everything.
>
> Also, check out the matronics website:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists/
>
> It hosts several email lists, and you should find at least one or two
> (probably more) to be very suitable to your purpose. Those lists
> are also archived on that website, so even without subscribing to any
> of the lists you have a few more good days of solid reading.
>
> Keep looking online- try an archives search for this newsgroup.
> Google search things like "homebuilt composite design construction,"
> I bet you'll find some personal websites with detailed construction
> logs. Even the Aircraft Spruce catalog has a few pages of general
> info on each major construction method.
>
> Uh, that's just off the top of my head. :)

[Peter Dohm]

"Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired" > wrote in message
news:%Ub0e.5735$%d7.4545@lakeread03...
> COLIN LAMB wrote:
>
> > I built my own kayak and canoe and went through the same questions.
Because
> > you often need to carry the kayak and canoe, weight is a big factor.
> >
> > I got most of my answers at Tap Plastics. Any local plastics outlet
will
> > have the various cloths that would be used, together with books and
clerks
> > who know the various materials.
> >
> > RVs seems to be popping up everywhere, and that tends to diminish the
need
> > to learn about various materials. So, you may run into a campaign for
you
> > to build an RV if you visit an EAA chapter.
> >
> > So, visit the kayak websites and any local kayak manufacturers. You
should
> > be able to find a chart of various materials used in constructing
kayaks,
> > and you can visit the websites to see the hype for that material (do not
> > necessarily believe all of it. Kayaks going through white water need to
be
> > tough.
> >
> > 73, K7FM
> >
> >
> I would think it's a different kind of toughness what with bouncing off
> of boulders and all.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I suspect the same; and would expect Kevlar to be a material of choice
despite, or possibly because of, its tendency to extrude out of the
encapsulating resin. That may be part of its toughness.

This information is now twenty years out of date, but a formaer offshore
boat racer once told me that a Kevlar hull was about ready for the dumpster
at the end of a season. Apparently, repeated loading separates the fiber
from
the resin.

Peter

[COLIN LAMB]

"I would think it's a different kind of toughness what with bouncing off of
boulders and all."

There is no doubt some differences, however boat builders face similar
problems to aircraft builders. Being beat up by the ocean currents is not a
lot different than being beat up by the air currents. One of the local
sailplane pilots built the US sailboat that just sailed around the world
single-handed. I understand it was a mixture of wood and composites. There
was no failure. I understand his construction method was unique.

Colin

[Bill Daniels]

If you are looking for tips on state-of-the-art composite structures, then
look at sailplanes. With aspect ratios exceeding 30:1 yet still yielding
10G structures, they are pushing the limit of what is possible with the hand
lay up processes.

Take a look at: http://www.leichtwerk.de/eta/images/galerie/marzinzik10.jpg
Or: http://www.leichtwerk.de/eta/images/galerie/marzinzik08.jpg

The L/D is reported to be in excess of 75:1

bildan


"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "I would think it's a different kind of toughness what with bouncing off
of
> boulders and all."
>
> There is no doubt some differences, however boat builders face similar
> problems to aircraft builders. Being beat up by the ocean currents is not
a
> lot different than being beat up by the air currents. One of the local
> sailplane pilots built the US sailboat that just sailed around the world
> single-handed. I understand it was a mixture of wood and composites.
There
> was no failure. I understand his construction method was unique.
>
> Colin
>
>
>