Glider Towplane Mid-air – TP PowerFLARM Inop

[George Haeh]

TSB Canada Report

https://bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19w0099/a19w0099.html

[Dan Marotta]

What a tragic waste of lives.Â* The report mentioned that both occupants
of the glider were wearing parachutes, but there's no mention of any
attempt to bail out.Â* Is that an oversight in the report or did they
simply not try to get out?

On 2/10/2020 12:32 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> TSB Canada Report
>
> https://bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2019/a19w0099/a19w0099.html

--
Dan, 5J

[George Haeh]

My guess is that they didn't have enough time to get out with the forces involved after the tail came off. The report does not mention whether the canopies were released.

[waremark]

In 2003 I lost my fin and tailplane in a midair. I was able to get out very easily. I and the pilot of the other glider involved were very lucky. We both used our parachutes and were completely uninjured. I would not speculate on why the pilots of this K21 were unable to get out and am surprised that the report did not address that aspect. Would any of you ground a tug because the Flarm was giving problems?

[John Foster]

On Monday, February 10, 2020 at 5:19:52 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> In 2003 I lost my fin and tailplane in a midair. I was able to get out very easily. I and the pilot of the other glider involved were very lucky. We both used our parachutes and were completely uninjured. I would not speculate on why the pilots of this K21 were unable to get out and am surprised that the report did not address that aspect. Would any of you ground a tug because the Flarm was giving problems?

It sounds like they were about 2000" AGL. I would think that would give enough time to egress, assuming the G-forces were not pinning you in the seat, but it wouldn't be a lot of time. You would have to get out fast.

[Jim White[_3_]]

Without a tail would the g forces not be 0 or even negative?. I would
expect the first result to be a bunt to inverted. Just wondering

[Jonathon May]

At 10:19 11 February 2020, Jim White wrote:
>Without a tail would the g forces not be 0 or even negative?. I
woul
>expect the first result to be a bunt to inverted. Just wondering
>
>
I once saw a crash through loss of elevator.
The time from loss of elevator to impact will have been less than
10seconds.
Horrible but quick.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 10:19 11 February 2020, Jim White wrote:
> >Without a tail would the g forces not be 0 or even negative?. I
> woul
> >expect the first result to be a bunt to inverted. Just wondering
> >
> >
> I once saw a crash through loss of elevator.
> The time from loss of elevator to impact will have been less than
> 10seconds.
> Horrible but quick.

I saw a glider loose the horizontal in the landing flare, 20 some years ago.. It pitched up and rolled left before the wing dung in and spun the aircraft around nearly hitting me. The pilot is still flying nearly every Saturday, and is one of the local "heroes". Funny side note, I watched that landing as the weekend before that same pilot had ground looped and nearly hit me as I was putting my bird back in box.

[Waveguru]

This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.

Boggs

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 2/11/2020 5:40 AM:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 4:45:04 AM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
>> At 10:19 11 February 2020, Jim White wrote:
>>> Without a tail would the g forces not be 0 or even negative?. I
>> woul
>>> expect the first result to be a bunt to inverted. Just wondering
>>>
>>>
>> I once saw a crash through loss of elevator.
>> The time from loss of elevator to impact will have been less than
>> 10seconds.
>> Horrible but quick.
>
> I saw a glider loose the horizontal in the landing flare, 20 some years ago.. It pitched up and rolled left before the wing dung in and spun the aircraft around nearly hitting me. The pilot is still flying nearly every Saturday, and is one of the local "heroes". Funny side note, I watched that landing as the weekend before that same pilot had ground looped and nearly hit me as I was putting my bird back in box.
>
Did damage from the earlier ground loop contribute to losing the horizontal the
next week?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

Once the initial negative G of the pitch over passed, the vertical
descent is essentially a zero G situation.Â* It should be really easy to
get unstrapped and out.Â* Perhaps it was simply denial of what was
happening.Â* Given an altitude at or above 2,000' initially, it would
take over 5 seconds to reach the ground, probably 6 to 8 seconds.

On 2/10/2020 2:14 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> My guess is that they didn't have enough time to get out with the forces involved after the tail came off. The report does not mention whether the canopies were released.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
gliders that had not climbed away.

I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
after release is asking for trouble.

On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
>
> Boggs

--
Dan, 5J

[krasw]

There is nothing easy or trivial about jumping out of uncontrollable glider.. You might be lucky with g-forces or not. Glider without tail can loose wings in quick succession, and then you don't have time to do anything anymore, no matter what the altitude is.

[Dan Marotta]

True, but that's why my initial question was whether or not an attempt
was made to exit the aircraft, e.g., unlatched canopies or harnesses.Â*
The posted report made no mention of either yet it did mention the
wearing of parachutes.

There was also no mention of losing wings, etc.Â* I believe the report
said that all of the aircraft with the exception of the vertical and
horizontal tail planes was found at the impact site.

On 2/11/2020 12:01 PM, krasw wrote:
> There is nothing easy or trivial about jumping out of uncontrollable glider. You might be lucky with g-forces or not. Glider without tail can loose wings in quick succession, and then you don't have time to do anything anymore, no matter what the altitude is.

--
Dan, 5J

[George Haeh]

TSB Canada confirmed to me that the canopies remained closed.

Given the low drag, it's about 8 seconds to lose the first 1,000' – and about 3 more for the next 1,000.

Question for those who bailed out after losing your tail: How high were you when the tail came off?

[waremark]

My glider blunted and I was hanging from my straps and fell out as soon as I released the harness. My mohair was at 3000 ft agl but I would have had no problems from 2000.

Anyway, reading this will make me pay more attention to where the tug goes after release. At our club to avoid shock cooling the tug generally accelerates away level before reducing power, and the glider does a climbing turn to slow down.

[Scott Williams[_2_]]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 6:15:52 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> My glider blunted and I was hanging from my straps and fell out as soon as I released the harness. My mohair was at 3000 ft agl but I would have had no problems from 2000.
>
> Anyway, reading this will make me pay more attention to where the tug goes after release. At our club to avoid shock cooling the tug generally accelerates away level before reducing power, and the glider does a climbing turn to slow down.

please elaborate "blunted" and "mohair"
thanks,
Scott

[5Z]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 5:51:24 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 6:15:52 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> > My glider blunted and I was hanging from my straps and fell out as soon as I released the harness. My mohair was at 3000 ft agl but I would have had no problems from 2000.
> >
> > Anyway, reading this will make me pay more attention to where the tug goes after release. At our club to avoid shock cooling the tug generally accelerates away level before reducing power, and the glider does a climbing turn to slow down.
>
> please elaborate "blunted" and "mohair"

I'd guess "bunted" and "midair". Aeronautical terms not recognized by the spell checker / auto correct he's using.

:-)

[2G]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
> gliders that had not climbed away.
>
> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
> after release is asking for trouble.
>
> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> > This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
> >
> > Boggs
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.

Tom

[BobW]

Further contributing to thread drift...

On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
>> then roll steeply and dive. If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I would
>> fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before beginning a
>> more moderate descent. I also maintained awareness of any gliders that
>> had not climbed away.
>>
>> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
>> of the blame to the tow pilot. Making what amounts to a level turn just
>> after release is asking for trouble.
>>
>> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
>>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left
>>> turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I
>>> changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight
>>> right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least
>>> one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When
>>> both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This
>>> kind of accident is the result.
>>>
>>> Boggs
>>
>> -- Dan, 5J
>
> You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead
> and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
>
> Tom

This sort of mid-air is - to me - excruciatingly: sad; horrifying; and
arguably 100% easily avoidable by every paranoid glider pilot. Color me a
paranoid pilot, who believes in controlling what *this* Joe Paranoid Pilot can
control.

Once I was savvy enough to be primary control-handler (i.e. *before* obtaining
my pilot certificate) I always - and I mean ALWAYS!!! - kept a beady eye on
the tug post-release, until I was 100% certain he could no longer hit me
without Mr. Tuggie actively trying to do so by applying power, climbing back
up, and sneaking into my 6 0'clock position. Perhaps 99% of the time, I'd see
him rolling left and soon-enough beginning the stoop back to the field. Those
few times this didn't happen (e.g. due to a "soft release" or a release not
felt due to turbulence or whatever), I'd halt my right bank and watch him
continue his climb until I either saw him figure out I was off and then
indubitably descend, or, until he was sufficiently high and far enough away
that I could begin my thermal search (necessitating turning my back on Mr
Tuggie, obviously) with sufficient clearance that he couldn't hit me *before*
I'd regained a visual on him.

My reasoning was simple. At the instant of release, my highest known-to-me
collision threat was Mr. Tuggie, so why would I NOT pay him close attention
until our diverging flight paths put him in the same category as all those
other not-yet-seen threats were to me? I actually told my ab-initio instructor
why I'd halted the post-release right bank once, when for some reason or
other, Mr. Tuggie briefly delayed beginning his stoop. He laughed and said
something to the effect, "That's fine by ME!"

Post-release "clearance by rote" is - as this terrible accident strongly
suggests - a seriously flawed methodology.

Bob W.

[krasw]

When releasing in a turn and seeing tow plane to continue the turn, it is totally plausible to NOT consider him collision threat anymore. In this case I can see why and how this happened. I'm pretty sure the awful visibility during turn from high wing Cessna was a factor. Accidents are 100% avoidable only for 100% perfect human beings.

[[email protected]]

>
> Post-release "clearance by rote" is - as this terrible accident strongly
> suggests - a seriously flawed methodology.
>
I agree. I aways turn right after release, to satisfy the rule, but only maybe 30 degrees before halting the turn, and turning back left as necessary to keep the towplane in sight. The towpilot necessarily loses sight of the glider after release, and should fly directly away from the release point until well below the release altitude.

[GeneReinecke]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
>
> Boggs

Agree with your logic. As a tow pilot and glider pilot I have circled around on several different flights over the last 7 years only to be too close to other aircraft. I began to do and teach what I saw at a contest a few years back: Tow plane descends and continues straight before maneuvering back toward airport (efficient.) Glider circles and (re)gains visual contact before continuing flight. Make the student verbally call tow plane out before moving onto soaring or lesson. Creates maximum separation.
Warning: This must be part of (US) preflight briefing or one pilot or other is going to say "What in the heck is that guy doing?"
Cheers
Gene

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:46:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

> You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
>
> Tom

There's one thing we know for sure about accident reports: they aren't 100% accurate. I think we ought to hesitate to convict someone we've never met based on evidence that can't be verified.

That said...

The day I tow some doofus that

-chooses to release in a right hand turn
-does a soft release
-clears to my left

and doesn't immediately get on the radio to let me know what's going on and make certain he keeps me in sight until we achieve normal vertical separation... we're going to have some words.

In the glider, I teach (following release & right turn): 1) track the towplane, 2) find the airport, 3) get on with normal flight procedures. Our turns at separation are typically 90 deg left for the towplane and 45 or more right for the glider. OK to thermal once you are certain the towplane is out of the area.

Yes, the tow pilot had better options. 2020 hindsight here: Given loss of situational awareness, or the vague awareness that the glider is somewhere out of sight, close and below, then a better thing to do is clear the area.. If you realize you've been victim of a soft release, then I think the thing to do is simply proceed straight ahead for at least 30s while beginning your descent.

That tow pilot has my deep sympathy. No one wants a do-over more than he does.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dan Marotta]

Did you release the canopy or go through it?

On 2/11/2020 5:15 PM, waremark wrote:
> My glider blunted and I was hanging from my straps and fell out as soon as I released the harness. My mohair was at 3000 ft agl but I would have had no problems from 2000.
>
> Anyway, reading this will make me pay more attention to where the tug goes after release. At our club to avoid shock cooling the tug generally accelerates away level before reducing power, and the glider does a climbing turn to slow down.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow
pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but
I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"

On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
>> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
>> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
>> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
>> gliders that had not climbed away.
>>
>> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
>> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
>> after release is asking for trouble.
>>
>> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
>>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
>>>
>>> Boggs
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

I think the reverse question is more intersting. How many people would have a PowerFLARM in a towplane and tolerating it repeatedly having problems before getting it fixed.

I expect it would be good to see more PowerFLARM adoption in towplanes in the USA.

[Dan Marotta]

The ABQ soaring club Pawnee has either a Flarm or a transponder.Â* In any
case, I see it electronically all the time.

On 2/12/2020 11:03 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I think the reverse question is more intersting. How many people would have a PowerFLARM in a towplane and tolerating it repeatedly having problems before getting it fixed.
>
> I expect it would be good to see more PowerFLARM adoption in towplanes in the USA.

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:24:05 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:46:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>
> > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
> >
> > Tom
>
> There's one thing we know for sure about accident reports: they aren't 100% accurate. I think we ought to hesitate to convict someone we've never met based on evidence that can't be verified.

The report had the tracks of the two aircraft.

Tom

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 9:41:55 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow
> pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but
> I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"
>
> On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
> >> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
> >> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
> >> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
> >> gliders that had not climbed away.
> >>
> >> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
> >> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
> >> after release is asking for trouble.
> >>
> >> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> >>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
> >>>
> >>> Boggs
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I agree with Dan. Part of my training was to make a radio call every time to let the tug know I was off tow. A simple radio call like this could have allowed the tug to start his descent and get out of the way.

[waremark]

Correct, bunted and midair entered on my tablet. Dratted autocorrect. It has just done the same again. I should have proof read before hitting post.

To answer another question - the perspex of my canopy departed from the shock of the collision. I found myself pointing at the ground, hanging from my straps in the open air. However I have no doubt there would have been plenty of time to jettison the canopy. The pilot of the other glider an ASW27 with a forward hinged canopy (and spinning with a wing broken off) managed to exit without jettisoning the canopy. Neither of us was hurt - we were amazingly lucky. Incidentally this was in 2003 - I am convinced that this was one crash which would have been prevented by Flarm.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 11:14:50 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:24:05 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:46:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >
> > > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > There's one thing we know for sure about accident reports: they aren't 100% accurate. I think we ought to hesitate to convict someone we've never met based on evidence that can't be verified.
>
> The report had the tracks of the two aircraft.
>
> Tom

The report has a two dimensional cartoon. To the extent that the cartoon is accurate, I think you'd be wrong to lay all the blame on the tow pilot.

-Evan

[Delta8]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:24:05 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 11:46:52 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.

Tom

There's one thing we know for sure about accident reports: they aren't 100% accurate. I think we ought to hesitate to convict someone we've never met based on evidence that can't be verified.

The report had the tracks of the two aircraft.

Tom

Looking at the ground track the tow pilot turned right after release and the glider continued straight I understand the tow pilot didn't feel the release ? But the instructor should have had the student turn right , was this customary practice at this field?

When I fly I'm assuming the tow pilot will turn/dive left and head for downwind pattern entry. 99% of the time this has been the case for me but I always try to maintain visual . One day the 1% occurrence happened when I released and turned right into severe sink and the tow pilot ended up in 1000' per minute lift . After a quick trip down I asked him why he climbed rather than dove his comment was "No matter what direction he turned he was going up".

Unknown weather a factor in this accident ?

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow
> pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but
> I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"
>
> On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
> >> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
> >> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
> >> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
> >> gliders that had not climbed away.
> >>
> >> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
> >> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
> >> after release is asking for trouble.
> >>
> >> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> >>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
> >>>
> >>> Boggs
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

There's been mention of people trained to announce the release on the radio.. Should not this be in the SOPs of the operation? It is wherever I fly - glider is ALWAYS to announce release, tow plane acknowledges. If you aren't going to communicate with the aircraft 200 ft away, why have a radio at all?

[George Haeh]

TSB Canada informed me that the towplane track came from its GPS. The glider PowerFLARM was destroyed, but they were able to retrieve the post release glider track. TSB does not put up public dockets like the NTSB.

I had a tow behind the accident C-182 last year and turned right after release into a hopeful thermal. About 270° through the turn I saw the towplane coming back at the same altitude and promptly steepened my turn.

Heard nothing from my PowerFLARM and did not think to see if the PF display showed the towplane as I was fully occupied staying out of its way. Possibly the towplane PF may have been inop.

On a somewhat disturbing note the presence of a PowerFLARM in a private glider brought to the field has delayed the annual sign-off. It seems the AME (Canadian for A&P) is under scrutiny by Transport Canada for signing off on gliders (and possibly a towplane) with PowerFLARM installed.

[Jonathon May]

At 16:14 13 February 2020, jfitch wrote:
>On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan
Marotta wrote:
>> Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the
tow=20
>> pilot's perspective.=C2=A0 When flying my glider I seldom
released
>softly=
> but=20
>> I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"
>>=20
>> On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan
Marotta wrote:
>> >> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider
was off
>an=
>d
>> >> then roll steeply and dive.=C2=A0 If I hadn't felt the glider
get
>off,=
> I
>> >> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance
before
>> >> beginning a more moderate descent.=C2=A0 I also
maintained awareness
>o=
>f any
>> >> gliders that had not climbed away.
>> >>


>> >> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would
assign
>mos=
>t
>> >> of the blame to the tow pilot.=C2=A0 Making what amounts
to a level
>tu=
>rn just
>> >> after release is asking for trouble.
>> >>
>> >> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
>> >>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane
makes a
>lef=
>t turn and the glider make a right and they come around and
collide. I
>cha=
>nged the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight
right
>tur=
>n, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of
the
>pai=
>r of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes
make a
>3=
>60=C2=B0 turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of
accident
>is=
> the result.
>> >>>
>> >>> Boggs
>> >> --=20
>> >> Dan, 5J
>> > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying
straight
>ahea=
>d and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at
fault.
>> >
>> > Tom
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Dan, 5J
>
>There's been mention of people trained to announce the release on
the
>radio=
>.. Should not this be in the SOPs of the operation? It is wherever I
fly -
>g=
>lider is ALWAYS to announce release, tow plane acknowledges. If
you aren't
>=
>going to communicate with the aircraft 200 ft away, why have a
radio at
>all=
>?


My club has a "no radio unless circuit calls" rule..
I ignore it and thank the tug so he knows I've released and accept
any reprimands. >

[Tango Whisky]

I fly in differnt countries, and on occasion there are rocks on my right hand side. There is no "on fits all" rule, just airmanship.

[[email protected]]

It's complicated. I was on tow at a contest. The glider on tow ahead of us released and did a shallow 270, crossing back over the path he'd just flown.. I watch him come around as my towplane continued to climb. I should have said something but I judged we'd be clear so didn't (mistake). The glider pilot saw us and, startled, dove under our path (he was under it anyway by then) yelling about almost being hit by the towplane. The towpilot admitted he never saw the glider. Lotta of mistakes, including my own. A learning experience. Both other pilots were older/experienced/high time.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 4:26:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> It's complicated. I was on tow at a contest. The glider on tow ahead of us released and did a shallow 270, crossing back over the path he'd just flown. I watch him come around as my towplane continued to climb. I should have said something but I judged we'd be clear so didn't (mistake). The glider pilot saw us and, startled, dove under our path (he was under it anyway by then) yelling about almost being hit by the towplane. The towpilot admitted he never saw the glider. Lotta of mistakes, including my own. A learning experience. Both other pilots were older/experienced/high time.

Sorry, finger slipped on my mobile phone. Not much to add except that it's not always a single towplane/glider combo involved, especially at busy operations and even more so at a contest.

Chip Bearden
"JB"

[Dan Marotta]

A couple of comments:

A tug circling back at the same altitude is a critical safety risk. I
would say that some towing procedures need to be established and, if it
was the same tow pilot as the accident, he should look for something
else to do.

Does Transport Canada have a problem with PowerFlarm or is it a problem
with the installation methods?

On 2/13/2020 11:05 AM, George Haeh wrote:
> TSB Canada informed me that the towplane track came from its GPS. The glider PowerFLARM was destroyed, but they were able to retrieve the post release glider track. TSB does not put up public dockets like the NTSB.
>
> I had a tow behind the accident C-182 last year and turned right after release into a hopeful thermal. About 270° through the turn I saw the towplane coming back at the same altitude and promptly steepened my turn.
>
> Heard nothing from my PowerFLARM and did not think to see if the PF display showed the towplane as I was fully occupied staying out of its way. Possibly the towplane PF may have been inop.
>
> On a somewhat disturbing note the presence of a PowerFLARM in a private glider brought to the field has delayed the annual sign-off. It seems the AME (Canadian for A&P) is under scrutiny by Transport Canada for signing off on gliders (and possibly a towplane) with PowerFLARM installed.

--
Dan, 5J

[George Haeh]

I heard that the C-182 had cylinder problems; possibly delaying the descent after release was being done to avoid shock cooling.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 8:15:06 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow
> > pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but
> > I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"
> >
> > On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
> > >> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
> > >> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
> > >> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
> > >> gliders that had not climbed away.
> > >>
> > >> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
> > >> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
> > >> after release is asking for trouble.
> > >>
> > >> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> > >>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
> > >>>
> > >>> Boggs
> > >> --
> > >> Dan, 5J
> > > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> There's been mention of people trained to announce the release on the radio. Should not this be in the SOPs of the operation? It is wherever I fly - glider is ALWAYS to announce release, tow plane acknowledges. If you aren't going to communicate with the aircraft 200 ft away, why have a radio at all?

Just to note, not all operations have radios in the tow planes.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 5:43:47 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 8:15:06 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 12, 2020 at 8:41:55 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Point taken, but a soft release is never a good thing from the tow
> > > pilot's perspective.Â* When flying my glider I seldom released softly but
> > > I always announced, "5J's off, thanks!"
> > >
> > > On 2/11/2020 9:46 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >> When I was towing, I would visually confirm that the glider was off and
> > > >> then roll steeply and dive.Â* If I hadn't felt the glider get off, I
> > > >> would fly straight and level for a bit to assure clearance before
> > > >> beginning a more moderate descent.Â* I also maintained awareness of any
> > > >> gliders that had not climbed away.
> > > >>
> > > >> I would blame both of the pilots in this accident but would assign most
> > > >> of the blame to the tow pilot.Â* Making what amounts to a level turn just
> > > >> after release is asking for trouble.
> > > >>
> > > >> On 2/11/2020 8:51 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> > > >>> This seems to happen every few years, where the tow plane makes a left turn and the glider make a right and they come around and collide. I changed the way we do it here so that the glider only makes a slight right turn, and then keeps his eye on the tow plane, so that at least one of the pair of planes can more easily maintain separation. When both planes make a 360° turn, neither of them can see the other. This kind of accident is the result.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Boggs
> > > >> --
> > > >> Dan, 5J
> > > > You can't hardly blame the glider pilot: they were flying straight ahead and were struck from behind. The tow pilot is clearly the one at fault.

[Dan Marotta]

Here we go again with "shock cooling" as an excuse.

On 2/13/2020 6:42 PM, George Haeh wrote:
> I heard that the C-182 had cylinder problems; possibly delaying the descent after release was being done to avoid shock cooling.

--
Dan, 5J