Glider - Towplane Signals

[Mike the Strike]

Training manuals and,in the USA, the FAA test, require knowledge of all
the in-air signals between a glider and towplane. In all my 25-years
of aerotows, I've only had four go bad (less than 1%). In one, the
towplane engine quit just after liftoff, but early enough to enable us
both to land on remaining runway ahead of us. I've had one spoiler
deployment, which I spotted and corrected as soon as I realized my ship
felt unresponsive and we weren't climbing! I've had two tows where the
towplane slowed to the point where I lost aerodynamic control and I had
to release to recover. In one of the latter, I was in low tow and even
a radio call couldn't speed the towplane up quickly enough. In the
second (and more recent) I was in a two-seater without a radio and
quickly sank from high tow to low tow, possibly out of sight of the
towplane pilot's mirror view. I didn't have enough control to wag
anything and my only recovery method was to release.

In all my four aerotow incidents neither pilot had time to signal the
other. I can see the need for towplane - glider signals (spoilers open
and release now) but how useful are signals from the glider to the
towplane? In particular, I really wonder if signals to
increase/decrease speed, while useful for winch or ground launch, are
actually useless in real aerotow situations?

I feel much more comfortable where both towplane and glider have
working radios (although I was one of the victims at a regional contest
when a glider on tow called "towplane slow down 5 knots" and all five
of them in the air did so simultaneously!)

And with all the emphasis on rope-break training, I've never had one!

Comments, anecdotes?

Mike ASW 20 WA

[Andy Blackburn]

At 17:30 22 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
> In particular, I really wonder if signals to
>increase/decrease speed, while useful for winch or
>ground launch, are
>actually useless in real aerotow situations?

Let's see:
- L-19 ran out out of gas just as we crested the high
point of the runway at
Sugarbush (LS-3 - full water) - I was 2' in he air
he was still on the ground.
No signals possible - except my hand signal after it
was all done.

- Canopy came open just after liftoff on a passenger
hop in a Janus. Didn't
need any signal - latch and go.

- Rope break at 300' over the high-tension lines at
Fremont, CA. I got my
signal all right.

- Three towplane release failures in a row at the beginning
of the roll. I
asked for a new towplane.

- Unable to release due to a non-standard ring. We
handled it by radio so
we could try to drop the line over the field. It's
still somewhere in the
Sonoran desert.

I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
but if I really
needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be churning
the controls.

I do make a point of knowing the towplane N-number
if at all possible.

9B

[Tony Verhulst]

> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
> but if I really
> needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be churning
> the controls.

A few years a go, club member, with full water was being towed too
slowly. The tow plane radio was inop and the last thing he wanted to do
close to stall was to rock his wings.

Tony V.

[Greg Arnold]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
>
>> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
>> but if I really needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be churning
>> the controls.
>
>
> A few years a go, club member, with full water was being towed too
> slowly. The tow plane radio was inop and the last thing he wanted to do
> close to stall was to rock his wings.
>
> Tony V.


What is the chance that the towpilot would notice the wing rock, anyway?

[COLIN LAMB]

What I see is a clear picture that working radios are essential for safety.
They are inexpensive and the communications between pilots when one goes
out of view is reassuring.

Colin N12HS

[Vaughn]

"Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
news:AK20e.1003$AN1.904@fed1read03...
> Tony Verhulst wrote:
>>
>>> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
>>> but if I really needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be churning
>>> the controls.
>>
>>
>> A few years a go, club member, with full water was being towed too slowly.
>> The tow plane radio was inop and the last thing he wanted to do close to
>> stall was to rock his wings.
>>
>> Tony V.
>
>
> What is the chance that the towpilot would notice the wing rock, anyway?

I always thought that the wing rock was for "speed up" was not the greatest
choice. Also, I have had mixed results with the "turn" signal, it is usually
not noticed. I find that particularly distressing when the tow pilot insists
on taking me downwind.

As someone else already noted, there is really no reason to not have radio
communications these days.

Vaughn

[BTIZ]

lets talk about the tow pilots wing rock.. for GET OFF NOW!!!....
as a tow pilot... when you've got your hands full of a sick engine... last
thing I want to be doing is rocking so hard as to be obvious wing rock above
the normal bumps of a thermal or rotor..

he gets one rock... then he's eating rope..

BT

"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
> news:AK20e.1003$AN1.904@fed1read03...
>> Tony Verhulst wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
>>>> but if I really needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be
>>>> churning
>>>> the controls.
>>>
>>>
>>> A few years a go, club member, with full water was being towed too
>>> slowly. The tow plane radio was inop and the last thing he wanted to do
>>> close to stall was to rock his wings.
>>>
>>> Tony V.
>>
>>
>> What is the chance that the towpilot would notice the wing rock, anyway?
>
> I always thought that the wing rock was for "speed up" was not the
> greatest choice. Also, I have had mixed results with the "turn" signal,
> it is usually not noticed. I find that particularly distressing when the
> tow pilot insists on taking me downwind.
>
> As someone else already noted, there is really no reason to not have
> radio communications these days.
>
> Vaughn
>

[Bill Gribble]

At risk of making myself look daft because I've mis-remembered the
signals, I'm pretty certain that here in the UK rocking the glider's
wings is an indication that you can't release from tow (though it's
actually combined with flying out to the left before giving the signal)
and so by implication, I'd guess, a request that the tug release you at
an appropriate point.

I'll also add that before I go to work on getting cleared for aerotow
(I'm not in any rush - so far I've trained, solo'd and got my bronze on
the winch) I'll make sure I've revised and am certain of the signals.
Although I imagine most of the private gliders at my club have radio,
our training fleet of Ka13's doesn't, so tug and tow are reliant upon
signals as the only form of communication between them.

Bill

BTIZ > writes
>lets talk about the tow pilots wing rock.. for GET OFF NOW!!!....
>as a tow pilot... when you've got your hands full of a sick engine... last
>thing I want to be doing is rocking so hard as to be obvious wing rock above
>the normal bumps of a thermal or rotor..
>
>he gets one rock... then he's eating rope..
>
>BT
>
>"Vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Greg Arnold" > wrote in message
>> news:AK20e.1003$AN1.904@fed1read03...
>>> Tony Verhulst wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
>>>>> but if I really needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be
>>>>> churning
>>>>> the controls.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A few years a go, club member, with full water was being towed too
>>>> slowly. The tow plane radio was inop and the last thing he wanted to do
>>>> close to stall was to rock his wings.
>>>>
>>>> Tony V.
>>>
>>>
>>> What is the chance that the towpilot would notice the wing rock, anyway?
>>
>> I always thought that the wing rock was for "speed up" was not the
>> greatest choice. Also, I have had mixed results with the "turn" signal,
>> it is usually not noticed. I find that particularly distressing when the
>> tow pilot insists on taking me downwind.
>>
>> As someone else already noted, there is really no reason to not have
>> radio communications these days.
>>
>> Vaughn
>>
>
>

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

[Vaughn]

"Bill Gribble" > wrote in message
.. .
> so tug and tow are reliant upon signals as the only form of communication
> between them.

Compared to most other things in aviation, portable radios are cheap.

Vaughn

[Vaughn]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:4F40e.73236$Tt.29647@fed1read05...
>
> he gets one rock... then he's eating rope..
>
Fair enough! In that situation you do what you gotta do.

Vaughn

[Bill Gribble]

Vaughn > writes
>Compared to most other things in aviation, portable radios are cheap.

Perhaps. But though I don't know why they aren't in common usage in our
club fleet (in either the single or two-seaters) I don't think it's an
issue of cost. But neither do I think they're missed on a day to day
basis.

Perhaps things might be different if we were primarily an aerotow site
or we had to share the airfield or otherwise manage a high traffic to
space ratio? But as it is, aerotow is the exception rather than the rule
and we have the luxury of a large airfield all to ourselves :)

Anyway, in token gesture to topic, I only raised the matter as an
example of when aerotow signals might get more use, but even then I'm
only guessing as I can count the number of aerotows I've taken on the
fingers of one thumb. And that was from a different site and we did use
a portable radio to co-ordinate!

--
Bill Gribble
http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk
- Learn from the mistakes of others.
- You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

[Mike the Strike]

Let me try again - for some reason the Google version got my post out
of order.

Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider pilot ever
successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up a towplane that was
flying dangerously slowly?

Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching and is it
useful?

Mike

[Bruce]

COLIN LAMB wrote:
> What I see is a clear picture that working radios are essential for safety.
> They are inexpensive and the communications between pilots when one goes
> out of view is reassuring.
>
> Colin N12HS
>
>
Our club has a simple rule - no radio, no fly, no problems...

[Don Johnstone]

I wonder if the wing rock signal might be best not
used for the same reason it is never used for winch
launching. If you are slow do you really want to be
applying aileron to rock the wings?



At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
>Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
>got my post out
>of order.
>
>Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
>pilot ever
>successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
>a towplane that was
>flying dangerously slowly?
>
>Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching
>and is it
>useful?
>
>Mike
>
>

[Don Johnstone]

I assume you mean that the tuggie looses sight of the
glider. If the glider looses sight of the tug there
is only one action required, pull sharply on yellow
knob, no communication required just release.


At 16:00 23 March 2005, Bruce wrote:
>COLIN LAMB wrote:
>> What I see is a clear picture that working radios
>>are essential for safety.
>> They are inexpensive and the communications between
>>pilots when one goes
>> out of view is reassuring.
>>
>> Colin N12HS
>>
>>
>Our club has a simple rule - no radio, no fly, no problems...
>

[toad]

> Also, I have had mixed results with the "turn" signal, it is usually
> not noticed.

Pull harder !

The turn signal works when the tow pilot runs out of rudder, then he
turns !

Todd Smith
3S

[Nyal Williams]

At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
>Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
>got my post out
>of order.
>
>Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
>pilot ever
>successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
>a towplane that was
>flying dangerously slowly?

<deletion>



Seems to me the question could be phrased better.
(If it is already dangerously slow, rocking the wings
could be disastrous.)

A better question might be, 'Are the signals useful
for speeding up or slowing down when the speed is
not really dangerous but is not the best or most comfortable?'.

Or, are these emergency signals or convenience signals?
The steering signal is not an emergency one. Certainly
the emergency release and the close spoilers signals
are emergencies; do we want only emergency signals?

[M B]

I've used the tail waggle to slow a tuggie down when
my glider was shaking due to excessive tow speed.
He was leveling off under a cloud layer and he had
sped up considerably. I was not wanting to release,
as I was not within safe glide. So yes, in a sense,
this was an emergency procedure signal from glider
to towplane that worked.

For those who are talking about takeoff, sure, I don't
see there is a lot of time to signal 'too slow' or
desire to do so for aerodynamic reasons.

As far as other glider to towplane emerg signals, maybe
glider can't release is important (although one can
usually break the rope, unless wrapped around an ailoron,
etc.).

As far as mandatory radios, I'm why this would make
a critical difference, except to have someone keying
a radio when they should really be focused on the release
knob. Maybe keying the mike and saying 'speed up'
works 100 times. Then the 101st time the tuggie is
oblivious, or can do nothing about it (ran out of gas)
and the glider pilot has wasted 2-5 seconds instead
of releasing, stalls, and dmages the glider or hurts
himself.

I'm willing to bet that if you ask pilots who damaged
a ballasted glider on takeoff, many keyed the mike
right before the stall...
and were in disbelief that the tuggie didn't do what
he was told.

I've aborted launches twice due to tuggie issues.
No radio either time. And no raised fingers from me.
I suppose both were emergency PTTs. But if there
is anything 'wierd' going on, release immediately and
I'm on my own...

I'd definitely prefer a chat with the tuggie before
launch and then no radio, to no chat and then a conversation
on the radio DURING a launch emergency.

At 14:30 23 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
>Let me try again - for some reason the Google version
>got my post out
>of order.
>
>Here's the main thrust of my post - has any glider
>pilot ever
>successfully used the wing rock signal to speed up
>a towplane that was
>flying dangerously slowly?
>
>Is this a signal that has migrated from winch launching
>and is it
>useful?
>
>Mike
>
>
Mark J. Boyd

[BTIZ]

"Bill Gribble" > wrote in
message .. .
> At risk of making myself look daft because I've mis-remembered the
> signals, I'm pretty certain that here in the UK rocking the glider's wings
> is an indication that you can't release from tow (though it's actually
> combined with flying out to the left before giving the signal) and so by
> implication, I'd guess, a request that the tug release you at an
> appropriate point.
>

the glider wing rock for cannot release is given AFTER the glider has moved
off to one side of the tow plane (normally left for those side by side
seating tow planes)... not when directly behind the tow..

BT

[Brian Glick]

That is why N numbers should be on the flaps of the towplane, and when I tow
I always try to remain about 10 faster than needed, but not all can do that.
We have a very powerfull tug, that allows us to stay well up the speed range
and still climb!!!!


"Andy Blackburn" > wrote in message
...
> At 17:30 22 March 2005, Mike The Strike wrote:
> > In particular, I really wonder if signals to
> >increase/decrease speed, while useful for winch or
> >ground launch, are
> >actually useless in real aerotow situations?
>
> Let's see:
> - L-19 ran out out of gas just as we crested the high
> point of the runway at
> Sugarbush (LS-3 - full water) - I was 2' in he air
> he was still on the ground.
> No signals possible - except my hand signal after it
> was all done.
>
> - Canopy came open just after liftoff on a passenger
> hop in a Janus. Didn't
> need any signal - latch and go.
>
> - Rope break at 300' over the high-tension lines at
> Fremont, CA. I got my
> signal all right.
>
> - Three towplane release failures in a row at the beginning
> of the roll. I
> asked for a new towplane.
>
> - Unable to release due to a non-standard ring. We
> handled it by radio so
> we could try to drop the line over the field. It's
> still somewhere in the
> Sonoran desert.
>
> I've tried the speed-up slow-down signals occasionally,
> but if I really
> needed the speedup, I'm not sure I'd want to be churning
> the controls.
>
> I do make a point of knowing the towplane N-number
> if at all possible.
>
> 9B
>
>
>
>

[Go]

The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't use it! We
don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency yes, but no speed
up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure. Of course the
landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule refuelling.

If you are in an emergency (except for the no release problem where you
have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with push to talk in
an easy location. Because you just aren't going to have the time, or
the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit. In immediate
emergency situations the hand-held is useless except to call back for
someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone is listening.

[Don Johnstone]

At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
>The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
>use it! We
>don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
>yes, but no speed
>up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
>Of course the
>landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
>refuelling.
>
>If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
>problem where you
>have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
>push to talk in
>an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
>have the time, or
>the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
>In immediate
>emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
>to call back for
>someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
>is listening.
>
I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
the only action needed in an emergency is to release
from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
problem the first thing must always be to release the
tow before it gets a lot worse.
>

[M B]

Spoilers disconnected and popped out at Truckee (where
straight ahead landing at 100 ft = bad) would mean
to stay on tow for a while, not immediate release.

Towrope wrapped around a wing, one can't release, so
the tuggie might need to, another example where someone
can't immediately release.

Two very different things, two different actions.
But I'm not aware of anyone having a rope wrap around
a wing
and unable to release, where this happened very low
during launch. Up high in wave, yes, but at 100 ft?
Not that I'm aware of (thankfully).

I'm sure there are other circumstances I haven't considered,
where one doesn't want to release immediately. An
unconnected elevator where the nose hook is helping
stabilize the glider and I want to get to bailout height
perhaps? Boy, I'd hate to be in this situation, though.
Maybe save your own life, but if miffed up (more likely)
maybe killing the tuggie AND yourself.

Anyway, there are times when releasing automatically
maybe isn't the best choice.

But in any emergency, aviate, navigate, then communicate,
in that priority. I can't help but think the disproportionate

number of midairs at 'D' airports are pilots thinking
they
are accomplishing collision avoidance by looking at
the radio and talking into the microphone.

Mark
'PTT means premature termination of tow, not push-to-talk'


At 09:30 24 March 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
>>The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
>>use it! We
>>don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
>>yes, but no speed
>>up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
>>Of course the
>>landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
>>refuelling.
>>
>>If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
>>problem where you
>>have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
>>push to talk in
>>an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
>>have the time, or
>>the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
>>In immediate
>>emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
>>to call back for
>>someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
>>is listening.
>>
>I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
>having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
>like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
>for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
>than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
>the only action needed in an emergency is to release
>from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
>problem the first thing must always be to release the
>tow before it gets a lot worse.
>>
>
>
>
>
Mark J. Boyd

[M B]

I can see some ways in which a radio can help for a
slowly developing emergency. A fogging windscreen
or maybe
a glider caught above clouds. But this seems mostly
an already off tow circumstance.

I read recently about a glider pilot who had both of
these
happen on his 100th flight, and used his cell phone
to
get weather info and find a proper landout.

He circled for a while right under the cue sorting
it out.

So as with anything, I think radios can be an aid,
even
in an emergency, but I don't think they are very
useful for emergencies requiring immediate action on
tow.

Once off tow, and in a gaggle, maybe it is really nice
to radio
somebody you are gonna circle under them. I'd sure
like to know (and be asked for my agreement) before
someone joins in formation flight in a thermal with
me above them.

At 09:30 24 March 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 07:30 24 March 2005, Go wrote:
>>The irony with our club is: no radio, no fly. But don't
>>use it! We
>>don't want to **** off the landlord. In an emergency
>>yes, but no speed
>>up, slow down, turns, or 'off tow' messages. Go figure.
>>Of course the
>>landlord uses our radio freq. to order lunch and schedule
>>refuelling.
>>
>>If you are in an emergency (except for the no release
>>problem where you
>>have plenty of time) you had better have a radio with
>>push to talk in
>>an easy location. Because you just aren't going to
>>have the time, or
>>the hands perhaps, to grab the hand-held and transmit.
>>In immediate
>>emergency situations the hand-held is useless except
>>to call back for
>>someone to bring the truck and haul you out, if anyone
>>is listening.
>>
>I am a little confused here. I can see the sense in
>having the radio to pass messages between tug and glider
>like asking for an extra 5 kts. I can see the need
>for having a transmit button easily accessible rather
>than having to pick up a hand held radio but surely
>the only action needed in an emergency is to release
>from the tow. If either aircraft has an emergency or
>problem the first thing must always be to release the
>tow before it gets a lot worse.
>>
>
>
>
>
Mark J. Boyd

[Shawn]

BTIZ wrote:
> lets talk about the tow pilots wing rock.. for GET OFF NOW!!!....
> as a tow pilot... when you've got your hands full of a sick engine... last
> thing I want to be doing is rocking so hard as to be obvious wing rock above
> the normal bumps of a thermal or rotor..
>
> he gets one rock... then he's eating rope..

No kidding! If he doesn't notice the smoke/oil/loss of climb by then,
let him go.

Shawn