A couple SSA 2020 convention presentations online...

[Dave Nadler]

First thanks to the volunteers who helped with recording,
and thanks to Spence for his work on the first presentation.
Sorry I didn't manage a better job with the audio.
Anyway, the talks are:

1) Bail-Out Aftermath — Lessons Learned.

2) OSTIV: Motor-glider Unreliability: Examples, Systemic Problems, and Potential Systemic Improvements

Videos, abstracts, and slides are linked on my web site:
http://www.nadler.com/public/NadlerSoaringIndex.html

Enjoy,
Best Regards, Dave "YO"

[Paul Agnew]

Thanks, Dave.

I was hoping you'd be able to post videos for those of us that missed the presentations.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

[Shaun Wheeler]

Thank you for sharing. This was on my short list but there were so many good ones that I couldn't get to them all.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Shaun Wheeler wrote on 2/26/2020 6:56 PM:
> Thank you for sharing. This was on my short list but there were so many good ones that I couldn't get to them all.
>
Dave's motorglider talk was good, but the Arcus bailout was really good. It
confirmed what I've observed over decades of soaring: if you can get out of the
glider, the parachute will work and you will survive, often without injury.
Half-humorously, if you fly a two-seater, be sure the passenger is young, strong,
and highly trained (worked for Dave)!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 8:04:56 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...the parachute will work and you will survive, often without injury.

"without injury" would have been nice.
The ground training I got (from Parachute Shop, Nashua NH)
made all the difference.

If you haven't already done so:
Get proper ground training from your nearest jump school,
covering how to do an emergency jump and landing.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 8:04:56 AM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > ...the parachute will work and you will survive, often without injury.
>
> "without injury" would have been nice.
> The ground training I got (from Parachute Shop, Nashua NH)
> made all the difference.
>
> If you haven't already done so:
> Get proper ground training from your nearest jump school,
> covering how to do an emergency jump and landing.

Thanks Dave for the very informative presentations.
One take away is that static line will save more lives. I know of at least one recent case of a pilot who managed to bail out but did not deploy on time. Dave was one second or so from deployment to hitting the ground, you can do the math of how much time he was from hitting the ground before deployment, 0.1 second?
I never seen someone using static line in the US. I wonder why. How common is it in the rest of the world, and what procedures are used to ensure you don't deploy accidentally after landing, especially those of us who are not used to static line.

Ramy

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 5:08:31 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > "without injury" would have been nice.
> > The ground training I got (from Parachute Shop, Nashua NH)
> > made all the difference.
> >
> > If you haven't already done so:
> > Get proper ground training from your nearest jump school,
> > covering how to do an emergency jump and landing.
>
> Thanks Dave for the very informative presentations.

Hope it was helpful.

> One take away is that static line will save more lives.
> I know of at least one recent case of a pilot who managed to bail out but
> did not deploy on time.

There have certainly been a few; I don't have stats.

> Dave was one second or so from deployment to hitting the ground

Sorry if I wasn't clear: I was <1 second from impact when I got chute open.
I had between 7-15 seconds under canopy before impact, just enough to
grab toggles, turn into wind, and aim for the 'safer' spot I hit.

> How common is it (static line) in the rest of the world...

Um, that's why all our gliders have the orange ring next to shoulder...

Most important: Get proper ground training on chute use!

[Shaun Wheeler]

Dave, I am definitely going to go out to the skydiving place and do that. I wonder if you would indulge a question or two? After the rudder pedal slammed back at some point you applied control inputs with the stick, opposite aileron I think? Was there any back pressure on the stick at all?

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 7:31:26 PM UTC-5, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> Dave, I am definitely going to go out to the skydiving place and do that. I wonder if you would indulge a question or two? After the rudder pedal slammed back at some point you applied control inputs with the stick, opposite aileron I think? Was there any back pressure on the stick at all?

The stick felt kinda limp.
Could have been adrenaline made it feel that way, just don't know.

[Turkey Vulture]

Dave,
Thank you for the fantastic presentation. We have all been eager to hear about the specifics of the accident from the PIC. It is a sobering reminder that we all need to hear again and again and again about preparedness.

Do you feel surviving egress from a non-functional glider at the top of a more typical climb like 4,000-6,000 ft with the same scenario would have been possible?

[Stephen Szikora]

Ground training is one thing, but why not do an actual jump. I went to a parachute school and during the class introductions everyone was asked why they were there. “On a dare, my girlfriend bought this package for my birthday, want to challenge myself“ ... were the usual answers. I said I wear a parachute and I want to know how to use it! I think actually jumping is a confidence booster that will help if and when the time comes. I also think most glider pilots will enjoy it because once the canopy opens, you’re gliding!

[JS[_5_]]

Thanks for posting those, Dave! I didn't get to any of the talks.

Knowing how it feels under canopy before using an emergency chute is a very good idea.
But finding somewhere that still uses old round parachutes like most use will be a challenge.
Jim

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 4:40:48 AM UTC-8, Stephen Szikora wrote:
> Ground training is one thing, but why not do an actual jump. I went to a parachute school and during the class introductions everyone was asked why they were there. “On a dare, my girlfriend bought this package for my birthday, want to challenge myself“ ... were the usual answers. I said I wear a parachute and I want to know how to use it! I think actually jumping is a confidence booster that will help if and when the time comes.. I also think most glider pilots will enjoy it because once the canopy opens, you’re gliding!

Because it is like practicing bleeding. Thirty- forty years ago a friend and I went through ground jump training followed by a jump. Having just had several surgeries on my left foot, I opted not to jump. My friend jumped and ended up with a broken ankle. I lost track of him after about 5 years but he was still walking with a limp.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Stephen Szikora wrote on 2/28/2020 4:40 AM:
> Ground training is one thing, but why not do an actual jump. I went to a parachute school and during the class introductions everyone was asked why they were there. “On a dare, my girlfriend bought this package for my birthday, want to challenge myself“ ... were the usual answers. I said I wear a parachute and I want to know how to use it! I think actually jumping is a confidence booster that will help if and when the time comes. I also think most glider pilots will enjoy it because once the canopy opens, you’re gliding!
>
My impression is the training one jump gives you is almost irrelevant: it's done
under ideal circumstances, and in those circumstances, the glider pilot without
the one-jump experience doesn't have any problems. The problems come in situations
the one-jump experience doesn't cover, like Dave's experience: sudden emergency,
difficult egress, collision with the aircraft, high descent rate due to density
altitude, winds, mountains instead of flat ground, and being older when you have
to jump, maybe a lot older.

For those reasons, I long ago decided against doing a "practice" jump. But, I
suspect going through the ground training portion would be useful, and possibly
repeating it in 5-10 years. That appears to be Dave's recommendation.

Here's an only half-humorous solution to bailing out successfully: get a glider
that has it's own parachute, so you don't have to bail out. I'm taking my own
advice: my touring motorglider has a ballistic parachute, and the GP15 glider I've
ordered also has a ballistic parachute.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

As someone who spent their youth engaged in the parachute arts I don't think a practice jump is going to help. Tandem ground school and jump experience is useless, accelerated freefall is better but 99% of it is irrelevant. They are training people to be skydivers, not bailout survivors. Find someone that once jumped lots and now flies sailplanes and have them teach you.. Or a rigger, they have an idea of what our community needs to know. Which at its simplest is:
Look for the handle, reach for the handle, pull the handle. And as Dave said in the video consider a static line, if you do use a static line have the same mindset - Look, Reach, Pull. Have a goal of being faster than the static line. You won't be, but you'll survive if you forgot to clip it on.

[BobW]

On 2/28/2020 9:37 AM, wrote:

> As someone who spent their youth engaged in the parachute arts I don't
> think a practice jump is going to help.

Chiming in here in the BTDT sense of things, I didn't think (or find) the
absence of anything but "the usual adolescent reading about aviation stuff
like WW-II 'adventures'", eventually followed by soaring-specific 'similar
crud'...and associated pondering...to be a handicap in any perceived sense of
things when - in a galaxy long ago and far, far, away, I put whatever
mentally-acquired preparatory skills I'd gained to firsthand use. It did seem
more than a tad unfortunate for the glider, though.

To the point, "What Gregg sez," pretty much covers the critical basics, IMO,
i.e.:
> <snip...> Which at its simplest is: Look for the handle, reach for
> the handle, pull the handle.
Everything else is gravy and 'fluff.' The only thing I'd'a maybe changed in
hindsight woulda been swapping the glider's landing spot(on the airport) and
mine (in the adjacent county dump); woulda saved everyone time! (You can't
make this stuff up!)

Bob W.

P.S. My only 'injuries' were beautiful multi-hued harness bruises from the
'chute's opening. Kids, tight is good!

[Stephen Szikora]

I’m seeing a lot of nonsense rationalization here. Any jump is better experience than no jump at all. If nothing else, you will learn to fly the canopy including judgung the flare on landing. Besides, anything you do in life is first practiced in “ideal� conditions (other than a first kiss!)

[Dan Marotta]

After buying a square parachute, I went with the intention of taking the
ground training (I'd had the Air Force training in the early 70s) and
making one jump.Â* I was scared absolutely ****less, but enjoyed the
actual jump so much that I did 6 more, all solo with instructor aided
deployment.Â* It was expensive, but worth it!

On 2/28/2020 5:40 AM, Stephen Szikora wrote:
> Ground training is one thing, but why not do an actual jump. I went to a parachute school and during the class introductions everyone was asked why they were there. “On a dare, my girlfriend bought this package for my birthday, want to challenge myself“ ... were the usual answers. I said I wear a parachute and I want to know how to use it! I think actually jumping is a confidence booster that will help if and when the time comes. I also think most glider pilots will enjoy it because once the canopy opens, you’re gliding!

--
Dan, 5J

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 12:26:31 PM UTC-5, Stephen Szikora wrote:
> I’m seeing a lot of nonsense rationalization here. Any jump is better experience than no jump at all. If nothing else, you will learn to fly the canopy including judgung the flare on landing. Besides, anything you do in life is first practiced in “ideal� conditions (other than a first kiss!)

Nope, a lot of just-plain-nonsense period.

1) With an emergency chute there is no 'flare on landing'.
Most of these chutes pulling both toggles decreases the effective chute
diameter and increases your sink rate (as explained to me by the chute designer).
DO NOT TRY TO FLARE AN EMERGENCY CHUTE.

2) A practice jump will not be with an emergency round chute.
You will get some practice landing but it will be very different...

3) Ground school will include specifics of how to land,
practice landing jumping of a small platform, etc.
Not to mention the mechanics of chute deployment (ie push, not pull).

Please, go get the ground school.
If you want to take a jump, great, but most important is the ground school.

Hope that helps someone out there,
Best Regards, Dave

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:54:21 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
> First thanks to the volunteers who helped with recording,
> and thanks to Spence for his work on the first presentation.
> Sorry I didn't manage a better job with the audio.
> Anyway, the talks are:
>
> 1) Bail-Out Aftermath — Lessons Learned.
>
> 2) OSTIV: Motor-glider Unreliability: Examples, Systemic Problems, and Potential Systemic Improvements
>
> Videos, abstracts, and slides are linked on my web site:
> http://www.nadler.com/public/NadlerSoaringIndex.html
>
> Enjoy,
> Best Regards, Dave "YO"

In response to a number of emails asking "who sells static lines":
Installation is not do-it-yourself, as the static line is attached
above the pins in the back pack.
Ask your rigger to obtain and install one!

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Stephen Szikora wrote on 2/28/2020 9:26 AM:
> I’m seeing a lot of nonsense rationalization here. Any jump is better experience than no jump at all. If nothing else, you will learn to fly the canopy including judgung the flare on landing. Besides, anything you do in life is first practiced in “ideal� conditions (other than a first kiss!)
>
Do round emergency parachutes flare? If there is wind, is flaring even desirable
when you are drifting backwards?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Dan Marotta]

Static line...Â* Don't forget to disconnect it before getting out after a
normal landing... :-D

We have a Master Rigger who comes to Moriarty each spring and gives a
parachute ground school.Â* He gives a lecture first, then hanging harness
training in the hangar, finally everyone gets a chance to learn to
collapse a canopy in high winds (it's Moriart in the spring!).Â* To do
that, the student dons the harness which is tied by a rope to the bumper
of a truck.Â* Then the canopy is released into the wind.

Collapsing a canopy in the wind is trivial if you know the technique.Â*
Simply grab ONE suspension line and start pulling it in towards
yourself.Â* The canopy will collapse very quickly.Â* What's sobering is
when someone forgets that simple trick and is tossed about like a sack
of meat until a helper collapses the canopy for him.Â* Unrestrained and
without help, that person would go on a long and possibly fatal ride.


On 2/28/2020 9:37 AM, wrote:
> As someone who spent their youth engaged in the parachute arts I don't think a practice jump is going to help. Tandem ground school and jump experience is useless, accelerated freefall is better but 99% of it is irrelevant. They are training people to be skydivers, not bailout survivors. Find someone that once jumped lots and now flies sailplanes and have them teach you. Or a rigger, they have an idea of what our community needs to know. Which at its simplest is:
> Look for the handle, reach for the handle, pull the handle. And as Dave said in the video consider a static line, if you do use a static line have the same mindset - Look, Reach, Pull. Have a goal of being faster than the static line. You won't be, but you'll survive if you forgot to clip it on.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

All of what Dave said is true, unless you wear a ram-air rectangular
emergency chute.Â* For me training at the sky diving club was a great
improvement over my Air Force training since that was geared to round
chutes and I now have a much more maneuverable square chute.

Dave, what do you mean by "push, not pull" on chute deployment? Assuming
you're talking about rip cord use, I'd advise pull straight down with
both hands, not straight out.

Cheers

On 2/28/2020 11:04 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 12:26:31 PM UTC-5, Stephen Szikora wrote:
>> I’m seeing a lot of nonsense rationalization here. Any jump is better experience than no jump at all. If nothing else, you will learn to fly the canopy including judgung the flare on landing. Besides, anything you do in life is first practiced in “ideal� conditions (other than a first kiss!)
> Nope, a lot of just-plain-nonsense period.
>
> 1) With an emergency chute there is no 'flare on landing'.
> Most of these chutes pulling both toggles decreases the effective chute
> diameter and increases your sink rate (as explained to me by the chute designer).
> DO NOT TRY TO FLARE AN EMERGENCY CHUTE.
>
> 2) A practice jump will not be with an emergency round chute.
> You will get some practice landing but it will be very different...
>
> 3) Ground school will include specifics of how to land,
> practice landing jumping of a small platform, etc.
> Not to mention the mechanics of chute deployment (ie push, not pull).
>
> Please, go get the ground school.
> If you want to take a jump, great, but most important is the ground school.
>
> Hope that helps someone out there,
> Best Regards, Dave

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 1:33:53 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> All of what Dave said is true, unless you wear a ram-air rectangular
> emergency chute.Â* For me training at the sky diving club was a great
> improvement over my Air Force training since that was geared to round
> chutes and I now have a much more maneuverable square chute.
>
> Dave, what do you mean by "push, not pull" on chute deployment? Assuming
> you're talking about rip cord use, I'd advise pull straight down with
> both hands, not straight out.
>
> Cheers
It has always been and still is called pulling, throwing for main parachutes, but a reserve pull is technically a push. Straight out is best combination of strength and splitting the difference of direction of cable housing. Cables are always from the top on sport gear varies on emergency rigs.
The few glider static lines I've seen clipped to the reserve handle, which isn't ideal but will work. A lot of pilot rigs cannot be reasonably modified to pull the pin from the back.

[Paul Agnew]

There appears to be several schools of thought on egress and deployment of an emergency canopy. Having a plan and rehearsing it regularly is the key, I believe.

I was taught to hold one hand over the D-ring as you egress (if possible) to keep it from flapping around, then grab the D-ring with both hands and punch straight out away from your chest (push/punch vs pull.)

Strong deployment training video - https://youtu.be/ccIta-dO40E

Egress procedures - https://youtu.be/hCldGXL-yYo

Why Practice video - https://youtu.be/G8QcTow7t1M

Strong Parachutes has a static line option.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

[RR]

O
> Because it is like practicing bleeding. Thirty- forty years ago a friend and I went through ground jump training followed by a jump. Having just had several surgeries on my left foot, I opted not to jump. My friend jumped and ended up with a broken ankle. I lost track of him after about 5 years but he was still walking with a limp.

My favorite story about this was a friend who had lots of skydiver friends and was a glider pilot so he thought he should jump for training. As he was standing in the door about to jump, he turned around to yell to his friends "This is crazy, it has to work the first time anyway!"...

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 10:26:25 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Static line...Â* Don't forget to disconnect it before getting out after a
> normal landing... :-D
>
> We have a Master Rigger who comes to Moriarty each spring and gives a
> parachute ground school.Â* He gives a lecture first, then hanging harness
> training in the hangar, finally everyone gets a chance to learn to
> collapse a canopy in high winds (it's Moriart in the spring!).Â* To do
> that, the student dons the harness which is tied by a rope to the bumper
> of a truck.Â* Then the canopy is released into the wind.
>
> Collapsing a canopy in the wind is trivial if you know the technique.Â*
> Simply grab ONE suspension line and start pulling it in towards
> yourself.Â* The canopy will collapse very quickly.Â* What's sobering is
> when someone forgets that simple trick and is tossed about like a sack
> of meat until a helper collapses the canopy for him.Â* Unrestrained and
> without help, that person would go on a long and possibly fatal ride.
>
>
> On 2/28/2020 9:37 AM, wrote:
> > As someone who spent their youth engaged in the parachute arts I don't think a practice jump is going to help. Tandem ground school and jump experience is useless, accelerated freefall is better but 99% of it is irrelevant. They are training people to be skydivers, not bailout survivors. Find someone that once jumped lots and now flies sailplanes and have them teach you. Or a rigger, they have an idea of what our community needs to know. Which at its simplest is:
> > Look for the handle, reach for the handle, pull the handle. And as Dave said in the video consider a static line, if you do use a static line have the same mindset - Look, Reach, Pull. Have a goal of being faster than the static line. You won't be, but you'll survive if you forgot to clip it on.

[Mike N.]

It has been discussed on RAS before, but who manufactures square ram air style bail out chutes for gliders?

I cannot remember the manufacturer's name. But one in particular had comfortable backpack style ram air chutes that did not require a jump certification.

Thanks for any leads.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 3:42:54 PM UTC-5, Mike N. wrote:
> It has been discussed on RAS before, but who manufactures square ram air style bail out chutes for gliders?
>
> I cannot remember the manufacturer's name. But one in particular had comfortable backpack style ram air chutes that did not require a jump certification.
>
> Thanks for any leads.

https://rigginginnovations.com/skydiving-containers/aviator-emergency-parachute

[[email protected]]

Alot of info here so far, Ill just say this. Years ago a good friend of mine who owned a Pik 20, and was a master jumper, was selling his pik. He was a big guy, my size 230 6'2" he wore a square reserve and as he put it "its the largest square reserve I could buy". He sold it to me as my chute was way too small and rather old. Several of us went to a local jump school and did the ground school and a static line jump. I opted for the 5K jump so I could have time under canopy to steer and judge glides ect. I felt it was invaluable experience and am glad I did it.

I have not jumped since but still have one important memory. When they were talking about if the chute doesnt open, then pull the emergency handle. As I let go of the strut on the 182 and arched I was amazed how fast the plane got small and almost simultaneously I thought something should have been happening and a second after I was looking for the handle and then it happened. The chute opened! Yea! They had one way radios and although the jump master on the ground was directing my flight path to the ground, he would have had me overshoot the target, so I ignored him alittle and delayed my turn onto final by a few seconds and landed on the spot. I went down to one knee so flare timing was alittle late but all in all a very good experience.

[Dan Marotta]

This is what I wear:
https://rigginginnovations.com/skydiving-containers/aviator-emergency-parachute

I used it in my prior LAK-17a and now in my Stemme.

On 2/28/2020 1:42 PM, Mike N. wrote:
> It has been discussed on RAS before, but who manufactures square ram air style bail out chutes for gliders?
>
> I cannot remember the manufacturer's name. But one in particular had comfortable backpack style ram air chutes that did not require a jump certification.
>
> Thanks for any leads.

--
Dan, 5J