Weight saving exercise.

[Fortunat1]

I have to begin making a few decisions on how to drop a few pounds (off my
butt and my airplane!)
For one, I'm considering making the composite tank as outlined in Tony
Bengelis' book. This would be the foam/glass sandwich he describes. Questin
is, is it lighter than the aluminum tank specified in my plans? I'm sure
part of it is how much resin you lather on, but is it possible to save a
couple of pounds here? Leaving the wieght aside, it's an attractive looking
propostion. By the way, the tank is a removable wing tank, about 4'by 2' by
5".
Next, what's the lightest practical covering? Biplane, weighs about 1450
lbs, redlines at 150 mph. In other words, what's the lightest system for a
cub type machine?
Finally, Wheels and brakes. They need to be reasonably robust and the plans
call for cessna type axles, wheels and brakes, but can imake any
significant savings by subsitituting something else? I don't want to put
plastic wheelbarow whels on , by the way! I'm talking about maybe
substituting cub, luscombe,whatever might be suitable which will give me a
few pounds.
any suggestions aobut these or any other tricks anyone might know greatly
appreciated!

[Jan Carlsson]

Hi,

I don't think you save weight by using glass/foam, maybe if you use the
Kevlar/glass combo fabric.

For wings use dacron 2,4 oz and not to much paint.

use a wood or composite prop not aluminum

for the rest of the body, use meat, fat, egg, fish, vegetable, fruit.
stay out of rice, potatoes, pasta, bread (Atkinson method)

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com


"Fortunat1" > skrev i meddelandet
...
> I have to begin making a few decisions on how to drop a few pounds (off my
> butt and my airplane!)
> For one, I'm considering making the composite tank as outlined in Tony
> Bengelis' book. This would be the foam/glass sandwich he describes.
Questin
> is, is it lighter than the aluminum tank specified in my plans? I'm sure
> part of it is how much resin you lather on, but is it possible to save a
> couple of pounds here? Leaving the wieght aside, it's an attractive
looking
> propostion. By the way, the tank is a removable wing tank, about 4'by 2'
by
> 5".
> Next, what's the lightest practical covering? Biplane, weighs about 1450
> lbs, redlines at 150 mph. In other words, what's the lightest system for a
> cub type machine?
> Finally, Wheels and brakes. They need to be reasonably robust and the
plans
> call for cessna type axles, wheels and brakes, but can imake any
> significant savings by subsitituting something else? I don't want to put
> plastic wheelbarow whels on , by the way! I'm talking about maybe
> substituting cub, luscombe,whatever might be suitable which will give me a
> few pounds.
> any suggestions aobut these or any other tricks anyone might know greatly
> appreciated!
>
>

[Fortunat1]

"Jan Carlsson" >
:

> Hi,
>
> I don't think you save weight by using glass/foam, maybe if you use
> the Kevlar/glass combo fabric.
>
> For wings use dacron 2,4 oz and not to much paint.
>
> use a wood or composite prop not aluminum
>
> for the rest of the body, use meat, fat, egg, fish, vegetable, fruit.
> stay out of rice, potatoes, pasta, bread (Atkinson method)


He he, thanks,.

I've been poking around th eAircraft Spruce site trying to figure out how
much a bare composite tank is and it loks to be almost exactly the same as
an aluminum one. I might still do it because I don't realy want to build an
aluminum one and the composite loks easy. The prop's a done deal, though,
Fairly large Ham Standard ground adjustable! Very heavy. If I don't get the
performance out of it, I might try a wooden one though if this one doesn't
work out. The fabric and finish sound god though!

thanks

[Fortunat1]

Bryan Martin >
sednews:BE693745.3CE41%bryanmmartinNOSPAM@comcast. net:

> You probably won't save any weight with a fiberglass tank. Homemade
> fiberglass lay-ups tend to be a lot heavier than aluminum for the
> equivalent strength. The big advantage of fiberglass isn't weight,
> it's the ability to easily form it into complex shapes.

OK, thanks. I wasn't actually thinking of a layup, but a foam core
construction made of foam sheet coverd in two layers of glass cloth each
side amd made up into box. Looks like it should be light enough, but I
can't tell how much epoxy i'm going ot need. The tank would be about 23 Sq
feet in surface area, one side, of course, si double it and add a bit for
baffles and I need to glass and epoxy about 50 sq. feet of 1/4 inch foam.
any notion how much epoxy is needed? I've only ever done little patching
jobs with epoxy

[Jan Carlsson]

You can probably make a little bigger tank in composite, I have made 2 using
wet lay-up over a foam plug, ((one with plastic cover material for
buildings) and one I put gasoline in the foam and scraped the gunk out) no
foam sandwich in the walls, and a couple bulkheads in the tank, and a large
sump with drain and outlet for the fuel line.

Used 3-4 layers of 300-400 gram fibre glass, the epoxy is about the same
amount as the glass.

Jan
"Fortunat1" > skrev i meddelandet ...
> Bryan Martin >
> sednews:BE693745.3CE41%bryanmmartinNOSPAM@comcast. net:
>
> > You probably won't save any weight with a fiberglass tank. Homemade
> > fiberglass lay-ups tend to be a lot heavier than aluminum for the
> > equivalent strength. The big advantage of fiberglass isn't weight,
> > it's the ability to easily form it into complex shapes.
>
> OK, thanks. I wasn't actually thinking of a layup, but a foam core
> construction made of foam sheet coverd in two layers of glass cloth each
> side amd made up into box. Looks like it should be light enough, but I
> can't tell how much epoxy i'm going ot need. The tank would be about 23 Sq
> feet in surface area, one side, of course, si double it and add a bit for
> baffles and I need to glass and epoxy about 50 sq. feet of 1/4 inch foam.
> any notion how much epoxy is needed? I've only ever done little patching
> jobs with epoxy

[[email protected]]

How did you get to this point in the first place, maybe based on that
we can make some suggestion. Was the design overweight by design or
was it over built? How close is the empty weight to that of the
prototype?

[Fortunat1]

egroups.com:

> How did you get to this point in the first place, maybe based on that
> we can make some suggestion. Was the design overweight by design or
> was it over built? How close is the empty weight to that of the
> prototype?

I'm in the early stages and am trying to avoid some of the pitfalss of the
first time builder. So far, I'm doing well. The ribs (truss) are as light
as feathers with barely enough spare glue sticking out of the gussets to
show they're covered. My welds are good, so I won't be carrying around 50
lbs of extra rod when it's done, I hope, and I'm dodging all the popular
mods and sticking pretty much to plans. There's nothing wrong with the
design (Hatz), but I'm not going to overpower it and my local strip is only
500 yard long, with obstacles, so I just want to stay "ahead of the power
curve" from day one in every way possible. After all, I'm not going to be
able tocut things out so easily after it's finished! Previous builders
usually wind up with empty weights of about 950lbs, but it's possible to
build it as light as 860, so I'm going to shoot low.
got some good ideas here, too. I'm thinking the composite tank is probably
not the way to go now, so I'm going to have to learn to build an aluminum
tank..

Anyone know of a resource to show me how? :)

[Fortunat1]

Richard Riley >
:

> On 25 Mar 2005 09:07:19 GMT, Fortunat1 > wrote:
>
>:Bryan Martin >
>:sednews:BE693745.3CE41%bryanmmartinNOSPAM@comcast .net:
>:
>:> You probably won't save any weight with a fiberglass tank. Homemade
>:> fiberglass lay-ups tend to be a lot heavier than aluminum for the
>:> equivalent strength. The big advantage of fiberglass isn't weight,
>:> it's the ability to easily form it into complex shapes.
>:
>:OK, thanks. I wasn't actually thinking of a layup, but a foam core
>:construction made of foam sheet coverd in two layers of glass cloth
>:each side amd made up into box. Looks like it should be light enough,
>:but I can't tell how much epoxy i'm going ot need. The tank would be
>:about 23 Sq feet in surface area, one side, of course, si double it
>:and add a bit for baffles and I need to glass and epoxy about 50 sq.
>:feet of 1/4 inch foam. any notion how much epoxy is needed? I've only
>:ever done little patching jobs with epoxy
>
> Figure, as a rule of thumb, the epoxy will weight 50-60% of the glass.
> But for a tank, that fraction goes up, since you want the inside
> laminate very wet and no leaking dry spots.
>
> Aluminum will be lighter.


OK, thank you very much..

Sold.

[Fortunat1]

"Jan Carlsson" >
:

> You can probably make a little bigger tank in composite, I have made 2
> using wet lay-up over a foam plug, ((one with plastic cover material
> for buildings) and one I put gasoline in the foam and scraped the gunk
> out) no foam sandwich in the walls, and a couple bulkheads in the
> tank, and a large sump with drain and outlet for the fuel line.
>
> Used 3-4 layers of 300-400 gram fibre glass, the epoxy is about the
> same amount as the glass.
>
OK thanks. Nice to have a few figures to work with. I can see there's no
weight advantage, definitely.

Thanks again to all! Any other weight saving suggestions welcome, though!

[Rich S.]

"Fortunat1" wrote in message

> . . . so I'm going to have to learn to build an aluminum
> tank..
>
> Anyone know of a resource to show me how? :)

The books by Tony Bingelis have excellent tips on this.
http://www.amtbooks.com/sport_plane_construction_techniq.htm

Rich Shankland

[Fortunat1]

"Rich S." > sednews:_fydnZvUOMpYONnfRVn-
:

> "Fortunat1" wrote in message
>
>> . . . so I'm going to have to learn to build an aluminum
>> tank..
>>
>> Anyone know of a resource to show me how? :)
>
> The books by Tony Bingelis have excellent tips on this.
> http://www.amtbooks.com/sport_plane_construction_techniq.htm
>

Mm, have all of his books and I don't remember seeing an article about ali
tank construction, but I did find this article from SA on the net..
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/fuel/How%20About%20An%20A
luminum%20Fuel%20Tank_.html

[Montblack]

("Jan Carlsson" wrote)
> use a wood or composite prop not aluminum

I went to your site. Why not aluminum?


> for the rest of the body, use meat, fat, egg, fish, vegetable, fruit.
> stay out of rice, potatoes, pasta, bread (Atkinson method)


Good Friday ....McDonald's $1.00 fish sandwich ...w/cheese


Montblack - raised Catholic

[Cy Galley]

I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks with
pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank can be built.


"Fortunat1" > wrote in message ...
> "Rich S." > sednews:_fydnZvUOMpYONnfRVn-
> :
>
>> "Fortunat1" wrote in message
>>
>>> . . . so I'm going to have to learn to build an aluminum
>>> tank..
>>>
>>> Anyone know of a resource to show me how? :)
>>
>> The books by Tony Bingelis have excellent tips on this.
>> http://www.amtbooks.com/sport_plane_construction_techniq.htm
>>
>
> Mm, have all of his books and I don't remember seeing an article about
> ali
> tank construction, but I did find this article from SA on the net..
> http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/fuel/How%20About%20An%20A
> luminum%20Fuel%20Tank_.html

[Fortunat1]

"Cy Galley" > sednews:4V41e.103754$r55.32258@attbi_s52:

> I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks
> with pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank can
> be built.
>

OK, thanks.There are two down the road from me, in fact! I'll probably try
and weld it myself, though I've never welded aluminum before. Then again,
most ofthe things I've done on this contraption I've never done before.:)
I'm assuming baffles (and I think I'd need them in a long shallow wing
tank) aren't welded, though. I'm supposing that the tank would be
assembled, but the back left open until the baffles are all riveted, and
then closed up and welded?

[Jan Carlsson]

To save weight, if an alu prop weight 30 lb. a birch will be 7 lb., mahogany
5.5 lb.

for efficiency, use the aluminium!

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com


> > use a wood or composite prop not aluminum
>
> I went to your site. Why not aluminum?
>
>
> > for the rest of the body, use meat, fat, egg, fish, vegetable, fruit.
> > stay out of rice, potatoes, pasta, bread (Atkinson method)
>
>
> Good Friday ....McDonald's $1.00 fish sandwich ...w/cheese
>
>
> Montblack - raised Catholic
>

[Montblack]

> To save weight, if an alu prop weight 30 lb. a birch will be 7 lb.,
> mahogany
> 5.5 lb.
>
> for efficiency, use the aluminium!
>
> Jan Carlsson
> www.jcpropellerdesign.com


Aluminum will weigh 5 x the mahogany? Wow.

At 100-110 mph how much (WAG) efficiency would the wooden prop lose, on say
an Ercoupe?

What's the cost difference between aluminum and wooden props?

Why do people buy birch instead of mahogany?

Cool, a prop person <g>


Montblack

[Matt Whiting]

Fortunat1 wrote:
> "Cy Galley" > sednews:4V41e.103754$r55.32258@attbi_s52:
>
>
>>I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks
>>with pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank can
>>be built.
>>
>
>
> OK, thanks.There are two down the road from me, in fact! I'll probably try
> and weld it myself, though I've never welded aluminum before. Then again,
> most ofthe things I've done on this contraption I've never done before.:)
> I'm assuming baffles (and I think I'd need them in a long shallow wing
> tank) aren't welded, though. I'm supposing that the tank would be
> assembled, but the back left open until the baffles are all riveted, and
> then closed up and welded?

I see no reason not to weld the baffles as well. Probably less messy
than sealing the rivets.

Matt

[Rich S.]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>
> Aluminum will weigh 5 x the mahogany? Wow.

Specific gravity of Aluminum = 2.7
Specific gravity of Mahogany = ~.5

> What's the cost difference between aluminum and wooden props?

New Ed Sterba Birch prop ~ $600. New Sensenich Aluminum < $2,000. These are
rough figures.

> Why do people buy birch instead of mahogany?

Birch has a specific gravity ~ .7 and is a lot stronger per pound than
Mahogany when used for a prop.

Rich S.

[Fortunat1]

"Jan Carlsson" >
:

> To save weight, if an alu prop weight 30 lb. a birch will be 7 lb.,
> mahogany 5.5 lb.
>
> for efficiency, use the aluminium!
>

Well, in this case the prop would be very efecient indeed. It's a 76 inch
ground adjustable Ham Standard with a very nice section. That menas, of
course, that I can screw around with the pitch to get the perforamnce I
need.
>

[ORVAL FAIRBAIRN]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> Fortunat1 wrote:
> > "Cy Galley" > sednews:4V41e.103754$r55.32258@attbi_s52:
> >
> >
> >>I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks
> >>with pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank can
> >>be built.
> >>
> >
> >
> > OK, thanks.There are two down the road from me, in fact! I'll probably try
> > and weld it myself, though I've never welded aluminum before. Then again,
> > most ofthe things I've done on this contraption I've never done before.:)
> > I'm assuming baffles (and I think I'd need them in a long shallow wing
> > tank) aren't welded, though. I'm supposing that the tank would be
> > assembled, but the back left open until the baffles are all riveted, and
> > then closed up and welded?
>
> I see no reason not to weld the baffles as well. Probably less messy
> than sealing the rivets.
>
> Matt


that depends on the aluminum alloy used -- and, how much warping you can
tolerate. Van's tanks are "wet" cells -- part of the wing and are
2024-T3, which is NOT weldable. The nice thing about wet cells is that
they add only the weight of the ProSeal to the airframe weight, while
separate tanks add their own weight to the plane.

6061 and 5052 are common weldable alloys, but you will get some
distortions from the welding process.

[Fortunat1]

ORVAL FAIRBAIRN >
:

> In article >,
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>> Fortunat1 wrote:
>> > "Cy Galley" >
>> > sednews:4V41e.103754$r55.32258@attbi_s52:
>> >
>> >
>> >>I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks
>> >>with pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank
>> >>can be built.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, thanks.There are two down the road from me, in fact! I'll
>> > probably try and weld it myself, though I've never welded aluminum
>> > before. Then again, most ofthe things I've done on this contraption
>> > I've never done before.:) I'm assuming baffles (and I think I'd
>> > need them in a long shallow wing tank) aren't welded, though. I'm
>> > supposing that the tank would be assembled, but the back left open
>> > until the baffles are all riveted, and then closed up and welded?
>>
>> I see no reason not to weld the baffles as well. Probably less messy
>> than sealing the rivets.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> that depends on the aluminum alloy used -- and, how much warping you
> can tolerate. Van's tanks are "wet" cells -- part of the wing and are
> 2024-T3, which is NOT weldable. The nice thing about wet cells is that
> they add only the weight of the ProSeal to the airframe weight, while
> separate tanks add their own weight to the plane.
>
> 6061 and 5052 are common weldable alloys, but you will get some
> distortions from the welding process.
>
I still don't see how I would weld the baffles in place before the tank is
closed up. This tank would be about 48" by 24" by 5" The top has a bevel at
the back to conform to an airfoil shape. I reckon I'd need two baffles
(strictly eyeball engineering here) to minimize sloshing from side to side.
maybe just one. If I were to make the tank out of a single wrapped piece
with ends stitched on afterwards, how would i go about welding the baffles
in place? Put the ends on last? Presumably, the baffles would only need to
be tacked as opposed to a continuous seam all the way around..

[Fortunat1]

"Rich S." >
:

> "Montblack" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Aluminum will weigh 5 x the mahogany? Wow.
>
> Specific gravity of Aluminum = 2.7
> Specific gravity of Mahogany = ~.5
>
>> What's the cost difference between aluminum and wooden props?
>
> New Ed Sterba Birch prop ~ $600. New Sensenich Aluminum < $2,000.
> These are rough figures.
>
>> Why do people buy birch instead of mahogany?
>
> Birch has a specific gravity ~ .7 and is a lot stronger per pound than
> Mahogany when used for a prop.
>


Might go to a wood prop if the one I have doesn't work out. But it is quite
a good prop, and it's absolutely gorgeous, to boot!

[Morgans]

"Fortunat1" > wrote

> I still don't see how I would weld the baffles in place before the tank is
> closed up. This tank would be about 48" by 24" by 5" The top has a bevel
at
> the back to conform to an airfoil shape. I reckon I'd need two baffles
> (strictly eyeball engineering here) to minimize sloshing from side to
side.
> maybe just one. If I were to make the tank out of a single wrapped piece
> with ends stitched on afterwards, how would i go about welding the baffles
> in place? Put the ends on last? Presumably, the baffles would only need to
> be tacked as opposed to a continuous seam all the way around..

Keep in mind that the baffle need not be attached to both the top and
bottom. Its job is to slow the fuel, not be a perfect seal.
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Fortunat1 wrote:

> I still don't see how I would weld the baffles in place before the tank is
> closed up. This tank would be about 48" by 24" by 5" The top has a bevel at
> the back to conform to an airfoil shape. I reckon I'd need two baffles
> (strictly eyeball engineering here) to minimize sloshing from side to side.
> maybe just one. If I were to make the tank out of a single wrapped piece
> with ends stitched on afterwards, how would i go about welding the baffles
> in place? Put the ends on last? Presumably, the baffles would only need to
> be tacked as opposed to a continuous seam all the way around..

Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld in a
baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on the ends to
close things up.

Matt

[Fortunat1]

"Morgans" >
:

>
> "Fortunat1" > wrote
>
>> I still don't see how I would weld the baffles in place before the
>> tank is closed up. This tank would be about 48" by 24" by 5" The top
>> has a bevel
> at
>> the back to conform to an airfoil shape. I reckon I'd need two
>> baffles (strictly eyeball engineering here) to minimize sloshing from
>> side to
> side.
>> maybe just one. If I were to make the tank out of a single wrapped
>> piece with ends stitched on afterwards, how would i go about welding
>> the baffles in place? Put the ends on last? Presumably, the baffles
>> would only need to be tacked as opposed to a continuous seam all the
>> way around..
>
> Keep in mind that the baffle need not be attached to both the top and
> bottom. Its job is to slow the fuel, not be a perfect seal.


Mmm, OK. I had considered that, but figured that the baffle would flex if
it weren't nailed to each of the four sides. I'm thinking now it might be
possible to get in from either end of the tank. I'd only have to get in
about 16" throug a 5"X24" opening and make a few tacks to the top. I know a
guy who welds aluminum boats up. I'll ask him what the deal is with those.

[Fortunat1]

Matt Whiting >
:

> Fortunat1 wrote:
>
>> I still don't see how I would weld the baffles in place before the
>> tank is closed up. This tank would be about 48" by 24" by 5" The top
>> has a bevel at the back to conform to an airfoil shape. I reckon I'd
>> need two baffles (strictly eyeball engineering here) to minimize
>> sloshing from side to side. maybe just one. If I were to make the
>> tank out of a single wrapped piece with ends stitched on afterwards,
>> how would i go about welding the baffles in place? Put the ends on
>> last? Presumably, the baffles would only need to be tacked as opposed
>> to a continuous seam all the way around..
>
> Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld in
> a baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on the ends
> to close things up.

'Kay. makes sense. Al I have to do now is learn to weld aluminum!

[Rich S.]

"Fortunat1" > wrote in message ...
>> Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld in
>> a baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on the ends
>> to close things up.
>
> 'Kay. makes sense. Al I have to do now is learn to weld aluminum!

Or, you can drill holes in the outer skin where the baffle flanges are
located and then weld them from the outside. It's a lot easier than trying
to get a stinger in the tank.

Learn how to weld Aluminum? After a couple thousand in dedicated equipment,
and a hundred hours of practice, you'll certainly be qualified. It's a
little easier than turning crankshafts, I suppose. If it was me, I'd spend
my time doing fun things and leave the 20 minutes of welding to the pros.

Rich S.

[Fortunat1]

"Rich S." >
:

> "Fortunat1" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld
>>> in a baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on the
>>> ends to close things up.
>>
>> 'Kay. makes sense. Al I have to do now is learn to weld aluminum!
>
> Or, you can drill holes in the outer skin where the baffle flanges are
> located and then weld them from the outside. It's a lot easier than
> trying to get a stinger in the tank.
>
> Learn how to weld Aluminum? After a couple thousand in dedicated
> equipment, and a hundred hours of practice, you'll certainly be
> qualified. It's a little easier than turning crankshafts, I suppose.
> If it was me, I'd spend my time doing fun things and leave the 20
> minutes of welding to the pros.
>

Mmm, maybe. Plan was to borow my buddie's TIG, though! I do know someone
who can do it for me, alright. On the other hand, ACS have atank for this
airplane.
By the way, I'm hurt! I learned to weld steel and it only took me a few
months! And it was fun, too..

[Morgans]

"Fortunat1" > wrote
>
> Mmm, maybe. Plan was to borow my buddie's TIG, though! I do know someone
> who can do it for me, alright. On the other hand, ACS have atank for this
> airplane.
> By the way, I'm hurt! I learned to weld steel and it only took me a few
> months! And it was fun, too..
>
>
Welding Al is indeed much harder to master than welding steel. The melting
point of the filler and the melting point of the filler is the same, or very
close to it. Get it got enough to flow the puddle, and if you are just a
little too hot, it blows through.

And of course, a tank has to be perfect to not leak. Many pros still get a
few leaks. Make sure that whoever does the welding does a pressure test,
before any gas goes in it.
--
Jim in NC

[Charlie]

Having just finished the tanks for my RV-7, I agree with Cy. If you're
in the USA, call Van's A/C & get the name of a builder near you & go
look at the plans for the tank/leading edge to get an idea of how they
go together.

If you can handle cutting & fitting the aluminum, the rest is pretty
simple & you can build with a drill & a cheap 'pop' rivet tool using
closed end pulled rivets. AD41H aluminum body steel mandrel is what's
used to attach the back baffle to the ribs. You'll need at least a
couple of internal ribs to stiffen the 2x4 foot top & bottom panels.

The hardest thing will be bending up the 'box' but a good sheet metal
shop can do that for you. (Be sure to tell them to use the proper radius
on the bends.)

You will be amazed at how light it will be.

Charlie

Cy Galley wrote:
> I would check with a Van's builder. RVs have aluminum riveted tanks with
> pro-seal. If you know a good tig welder, then a welded tank can be built.
>
>
> "Fortunat1" > wrote in message ...
>
>>"Rich S." > sednews:_fydnZvUOMpYONnfRVn-
:
>>
>>
>>>"Fortunat1" wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>. . . so I'm going to have to learn to build an aluminum
>>>>tank..
>>>>
>>>>Anyone know of a resource to show me how? :)
>>>
>>>The books by Tony Bingelis have excellent tips on this.
>>>http://www.amtbooks.com/sport_plane_construction_techniq.htm
>>>
>>
>>Mm, have all of his books and I don't remember seeing an article about
>>ali
>>tank construction, but I did find this article from SA on the net..
>>http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/fuel/How%20About%20An%20A
>>luminum%20Fuel%20Tank_.html
>
>
>

[Rich S.]

"Fortunat1" > wrote in message ...
>
> Mmm, maybe. Plan was to borow my buddie's TIG, though! I do know someone
> who can do it for me, alright. On the other hand, ACS have atank for this
> airplane.
> By the way, I'm hurt! I learned to weld steel and it only took me a few
> months! And it was fun, too..

So. . . Go for it! Practice on some 1/8" and gradually decrease the
thickness. Anything more than 1/8" will conduct the heat away too quick and
anything less will tend to melt, so it's a good thickness to start on. It'll
be an experience learning to sharpen your Tungsten just the way you want and
to control the heat to get a clean weld without birdpooping the Aluminum
into your shoe.

Good luck - and. . .have fun. :o)

Rich S.

[Jan Carlsson]

Wood or Metal is also a q of balance, if the plane tend to be tail heavy a
metal prop is better then adding weight, or the other way if...

The hollow steel prop that is/was on Stearman was/is noticeable more
efficient then the common replacement Sensenich wood.

Beach, Ash or Beech is very strong to weight, a mahogany with a lot of clear
coats is a perfect thing to make the other plane owners being jealous.

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com

"Fortunat1" > skrev i meddelandet ...
> "Jan Carlsson" >
> :
>
> > To save weight, if an alu prop weight 30 lb. a birch will be 7 lb.,
> > mahogany 5.5 lb.
> >
> > for efficiency, use the aluminium!
> >
>
> Well, in this case the prop would be very efecient indeed. It's a 76 inch
> ground adjustable Ham Standard with a very nice section. That menas, of
> course, that I can screw around with the pitch to get the perforamnce I
> need.
> >
>

[Fortunat1]

"Jan Carlsson" >
:

> Wood or Metal is also a q of balance, if the plane tend to be tail
> heavy a metal prop is better then adding weight, or the other way
> if...
>
> The hollow steel prop that is/was on Stearman was/is noticeable more
> efficient then the common replacement Sensenich wood.
>

Coincidentally, that's pretty much what I have, on a smaller scale.

[Highflyer]

"Rich S." > wrote in message
...
> "Fortunat1" > wrote in message ...
>>> Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld in
>>> a baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on the ends
>>> to close things up.
>>
>> 'Kay. makes sense. Al I have to do now is learn to weld aluminum!
>
> Or, you can drill holes in the outer skin where the baffle flanges are
> located and then weld them from the outside. It's a lot easier than trying
> to get a stinger in the tank.
>
> Learn how to weld Aluminum? After a couple thousand in dedicated
> equipment, and a hundred hours of practice, you'll certainly be qualified.
> It's a little easier than turning crankshafts, I suppose. If it was me,
> I'd spend my time doing fun things and leave the 20 minutes of welding to
> the pros.
>
> Rich S.

It isn't all that bad, Rich. I use the same Smith torch and tanks for
aluminum as for steel. Use an aluminum flux and soft aluminum filler rod.
I would use a cheap spot welder to tack in the baffles. They work great on
aluminum.

Leave your outside seams as bent out flanges. Brush a little flux on the
flanges and melt them together with the torch. It really isn't terribly
tough. The flanges melt down and you don't even need filler rod! See the
Tinman videos on welding aluminum with a torch.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Highflyer]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
>> To save weight, if an alu prop weight 30 lb. a birch will be 7 lb.,
>> mahogany
>> 5.5 lb.
>>
>> for efficiency, use the aluminium!
>>
>> Jan Carlsson
>> www.jcpropellerdesign.com
>
>
> Aluminum will weigh 5 x the mahogany? Wow.
>
> At 100-110 mph how much (WAG) efficiency would the wooden prop lose, on
> say an Ercoupe?
>
> What's the cost difference between aluminum and wooden props?
>
> Why do people buy birch instead of mahogany?
>
> Cool, a prop person <g>
>
>
> Montblack

The wood prop is probably 3 to 5 percent less efficient, especially in
climb.

A new sensenich wood prop is about $1500. A metal prop is twice that.

Birch is more readily available and stronger and cheaper. Aircraft mahogany
is real hard to come by any more. It has to be real mahogany, not "luan" or
some other tropical wood that looks sort of like mahogany.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Fortunat1]

"Highflyer" > :

>
> "Rich S." > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Fortunat1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> Yes, you would wrap the sheet to form the overall tank shape, weld
>>>> in a baffle or three working from the open ends and then weld on
>>>> the ends to close things up.
>>>
>>> 'Kay. makes sense. Al I have to do now is learn to weld aluminum!
>>
>> Or, you can drill holes in the outer skin where the baffle flanges
>> are located and then weld them from the outside. It's a lot easier
>> than trying to get a stinger in the tank.
>>
>> Learn how to weld Aluminum? After a couple thousand in dedicated
>> equipment, and a hundred hours of practice, you'll certainly be
>> qualified. It's a little easier than turning crankshafts, I suppose.
>> If it was me, I'd spend my time doing fun things and leave the 20
>> minutes of welding to the pros.
>>
>> Rich S.
>
> It isn't all that bad, Rich. I use the same Smith torch and tanks for
> aluminum as for steel. Use an aluminum flux and soft aluminum filler
> rod. I would use a cheap spot welder to tack in the baffles. They
> work great on aluminum.
>
> Leave your outside seams as bent out flanges. Brush a little flux on
> the flanges and melt them together with the torch. It really isn't
> terribly tough. The flanges melt down and you don't even need filler
> rod! See the Tinman videos on welding aluminum with a torch.

Kay, thanks John. I did try welding aluminum when i gt my bottles first
years ago, but gave up early on! Anyhow there was nothing for me to weld..

[Morgans]

"Highflyer" > wrote
>
> It isn't all that bad, Rich. I use the same Smith torch and tanks for
> aluminum as for steel. Use an aluminum flux and soft aluminum filler rod.
> I would use a cheap spot welder to tack in the baffles. They work great
on
> aluminum.
>
Isn't it true that most pros use TIG to weld aluminum? A good aluminum TIG
weld is a work of art. Can gas welding make as beautiful a fillet as TIG?

I tried gas welding (or soldering) with a cheap torch with some of that
"miracle rod" quite a few years back before I was interested in building
planes, or really, even welding. The results were horrid. I'll have to
give it a try with some proper rod and stock, now that I have a good torch.
What size tip, by the way? (Smith)
--
Jim in NC

P.S. Nice to see you back, for a while, even. The yahoo count is somewhat
low right now, with the right kill list! <g>

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:46:36 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>Isn't it true that most pros use TIG to weld aluminum? A good aluminum TIG
>weld is a work of art. Can gas welding make as beautiful a fillet as TIG?

How do you supposed aluminum was welded before TIG was invented? They
used a torch. It just takes practice.

Corky Scott

[Morgans]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:46:36 -0500, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
> >Isn't it true that most pros use TIG to weld aluminum? A good aluminum
TIG
> >weld is a work of art. Can gas welding make as beautiful a fillet as
TIG?
>
> How do you supposed aluminum was welded before TIG was invented? They
> used a torch. It just takes practice.
>
> Corky Scott

How long has TIG been around?
--
Jim in NC

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:07:36 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>> How do you suppose aluminum was welded before TIG was invented? They
>> used a torch. It just takes practice.
>>
>> Corky Scott
>
>How long has TIG been around?

I think it was invented during WWII. Thought I saw some information
to that effect from "tinman".

He actually prefers to weld aluminum sheet using a torch, instead of
Tig. He sells special goggles for the purpose too.

Corky Scott

[Fortunat1]

"Morgans" > :

>
> "Corky Scott" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:46:36 -0500, "Morgans"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Isn't it true that most pros use TIG to weld aluminum? A good aluminum
> TIG
>> >weld is a work of art. Can gas welding make as beautiful a fillet as
> TIG?
>>
>> How do you supposed aluminum was welded before TIG was invented? They
>> used a torch. It just takes practice.
>>
>> Corky Scott
>
> How long has TIG been around?


Here ya go.

http://www.welding.com/history_of_welding2.shtml

[Morgans]

"Corky Scott" > wrote

> He actually prefers to weld aluminum sheet using a torch, instead of
> Tig. He sells special goggles for the purpose too.
>
> Corky Scott

What alloy and thickness would you recommend to experiment with, simulating
building a tank, and what filler material?

I'm the kind of guy that loves to learn how to do new things, even if I
never use it. ;-)

A tig rig I don't have, but a torch, I do have!
--
Jim in NC

[Roger]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 01:46:36 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Highflyer" > wrote
>>
>> It isn't all that bad, Rich. I use the same Smith torch and tanks for
>> aluminum as for steel. Use an aluminum flux and soft aluminum filler rod.
>> I would use a cheap spot welder to tack in the baffles. They work great
>on
>> aluminum.
>>
>Isn't it true that most pros use TIG to weld aluminum? A good aluminum TIG
>weld is a work of art. Can gas welding make as beautiful a fillet as TIG?

Better... But certainly not by me.

There was an article in ... I think it was Sport Aviation, or
KitPlanes about a year or so back. The TIG welds looked really good
until you looked at what they did with a torch.

>
>I tried gas welding (or soldering) with a cheap torch with some of that
>"miracle rod" quite a few years back before I was interested in building
>planes, or really, even welding. The results were horrid. I'll have to

Bout echoes my experience.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>give it a try with some proper rod and stock, now that I have a good torch.
>What size tip, by the way? (Smith)

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:54:43 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>What alloy and thickness would you recommend to experiment with, simulating
>building a tank, and what filler material?
>
>I'm the kind of guy that loves to learn how to do new things, even if I
>never use it. ;-)
>
>A tig rig I don't have, but a torch, I do have!

You need to talk to da man. Go to <http://www.tinmantech.com/> and
ask Kent White your questions. He'll be happy to respond.

His goggles are not cheap, but may be the best in the industry.

Corky Scott