?? Marine boot camp question ??

[vincent p. norris]

My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
boot camp was given a set of blues, free.

I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
went through Parris Island in 1946.

Was it done at San Diego?

Anyone know?

Thanks. vince norris

[Leanne]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago,
mentioned at
> dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at
Marine
> boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>
> I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case
when I
> went through Parris Island in 1946.

I was stationed at PI in 1953 and that wasn't the case then, but
I think that they did that for a while in the 70's when I was at
MCAS Beaufort.

Leanne

--
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Frates et Sororis Aeterni -
Often Tested, Always Faithful, Brothers and Sisters Forever

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
>dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
>boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>
>I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
>went through Parris Island in 1946.
>
>Was it done at San Diego?
>
>Anyone know?

2005 - 1946 = 59 years.= almost 2 x 30. When did you
retire?!?!?!?!?

As of 1961 [2005 - 1961 = 44 years - OMG I'm getting old] when I
went through PI, honor man in a platoon got blues. Up to 10%
could be promoted PFC. honor man was /usually/ the guy who had
also been recruit platoon guide for the last phase since he had
the job /because/ he was the most squared away boot; he and the
similarly situated squad leaders and a couple/three other
hotshots usually got the stripes.

Cash sales/tailor shop managed to measure/fit the blues/sew the
stripes on between the Final Field Inspection and graduation -
wouldn't do to have an honor man blues/meritorious stripes going
to someone who managed to flunk the FFI. ;->

Dunno when it all started, but it had been going on for a while
before 1961 at both depots.

Moot point now. Since some time in the mid/late-80s, blues have
been part of the seabag issue.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[Cranky One]

When I went through in '79 it was true


"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
> dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
> boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>
> I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
> went through Parris Island in 1946.
>
> Was it done at San Diego?
>
> Anyone know?
>
> Thanks. vince norris

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:50:28 -0500, vincent p. norris >
postulated :
>My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
>dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
>boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>
>I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
>went through Parris Island in 1946.
>
>Was it done at San Diego?
>
>Anyone know?
>
>Thanks. vince norris

It was true the summer of 1955 when I went through PI.
(Damn; almost 50 years ago !)

Greasy

[Ogden Johnson III]

Greasy Rider© @invalid.com wrote:

>vincent p. norris > postulated :

>>My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
>>dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
>>boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>>
>>I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
>>went through Parris Island in 1946.
>>
>>Was it done at San Diego?
>>
>>Anyone know?
>>
>>Thanks. vince norris
>
>It was true the summer of 1955 when I went through PI.
>(Damn; almost 50 years ago !)

OK, fellow Jarheads, I'm bringing in the big guns on this. Just
sent a query off to Leatherneck Magazine - those guys are good
at this sort of USMCiana, and we'll get to the bottom of it yet.
Chapter and verse, I'd warrant. Right now I'd guess the honor
man dress blues award was a post-Korean War thing, and we know
from Vince that they weren't doing it immediately after WWII
[prolly 'cause the USMC had more worries, with Truman/Johnson
trying to shut them down], so lets see what the Leatherneck
memory/trivia banks come up with.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[vincent p. norris]

>2005 - 1946 = 59 years.= almost 2 x 30. When did you
>retire?!?!?!?!?

I didn't serve long enough to retire. I got out in 1953.

Because of a childhood injury, I was 4F in the draft--physically unfit
for duty. But I wanted to fly, so I tried to get into the Navy V-5
program. No soap.

Then I heard I could enlist in the marines and be guaranteed a chance
to take a test for flight training. By telling a few fibs about my
physical condition, I passed the physical and even survived Paris
Island.

I passed the test for flight training, too, and was sent to college
for two years and then to Pensacola. I got my wings in 1951 and kept
passing passing physicals until 1953 when a nosy flight surgeon
decided I really wasn't fit to fly Uncle Sam's airplanes (which I had
already done for about 1400 hours) so I was discharged.

I never had a set of dress blues, either.

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

Thanks, guys.

vince norris

[Joe Osman]

The platoon honor man got dress blues when I graduated in 1970.
They were bought by a private organization which was named at the
graduation ceremony. The series honor man got some additional money or
gift, I forget which.


Joe

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>2005 - 1946 = 59 years.= almost 2 x 30. When did you
>>retire?!?!?!?!?

>I didn't serve long enough to retire. I got out in 1953.

<slaps forehead>

Duh. Shoulda been able to figure that out on my own. If you had
served long enough for a pensioned[1] retirement, you would have
served long enough to know about that blues thing, and not asked
in the first place.

</slaps forehead>

[1 - Since once a Marine, always a Marine, the only difference
between "retired" Marines is if they retired before or after the
20 needed to rate the pension {or retainer pay, retired pay, or
whatever your pedant heart wants to call it}.]

[Snip general stuff, addressed below, except...]

>I got my wings in 1951 and kept
>passing passing physicals until 1953 when a nosy flight surgeon
>decided I really wasn't fit to fly Uncle Sam's airplanes (which I had
>already done for about 1400 hours) so I was discharged.

Tail end of Korea - when the health requirements for warm bodies
in cockpits were returning to peace-time levels.

In fact, through most of the post-WWII/peacetime draft/cold
war/lukewarm war period, warm, willing, and get-in-shapeable
bodies covered for a lot of sins, health history-wise, like the
aftermath of your childhood injury or my hay fever/
not-ever-formally-diagnosed-even-if-I-was-an-Army/
Marine-Brat-who-had-been-under-military-health-care-all-my-life-asthma.

I served with a lot of Marines in my career ['61-'82] who would
have not been accepted for enlistment today for health reasons.
With hindsight, safe in retirement, I can say that the USMC is
right. I was lucky and never got into circumstances, even during
VN tours as a helo gunner, where my "hay fever" presented a
problem. BUT, if I had faced such a situation, I could have
damned well taken down a lot of other good Marines with me.

>I never had a set of dress blues, either.

Well, you would have, post-Korea. Blues were part of an
Officer's required kit, pilot or otherwise. ;->

[You could, though, have held off on the Mess Dress until you
made Major. Gotta have the fancy togs to go along with the
scrambled eggs.]
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[vincent p. norris]

>[1 - Since once a Marine, always a Marine, the only difference
>between "retired" Marines is if they retired before or after the
>20 needed to rate the pension....

I usually say, Marines on active duty and Marines no longer on active
duty.

>>I never had a set of dress blues, either.
>
>Well, you would have, post-Korea. Blues were part of an
>Officer's required kit, pilot or otherwise. ;->

Now that you jog my memory, I do remember the day when an order
arrived from Headquarters Marine Corps. Subject: Swagger Sticks.

Para 1 said something like "On and after (date), all officers will
carry swagger sticks."

Para 2 said something like "Swagger Sticks will be 18 inches long,
3/8ths of an inch in diameter, covered with cordovan leather........"

Para 3 said something about not carrying an umbrella or a bag of
groceries while carrying a Swagger Stick.

Whoever started reading it aloud to a group of us in the Squadron
office began to giggle, and eventually we all howled with laughter.

That must have been a bout 1952 or 53. If anyone has a copy of that
order, it would be a service to mankind's merriment if he were to post
it here.

vince norris
P.S. I never owned a swagger stick, either.

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>[1 - Since once a Marine, always a Marine, the only difference
>>between "retired" Marines is if they retired before or after the
>>20 needed to rate the pension....
>
>I usually say, Marines on active duty and Marines no longer on active
>duty.
>
>>>I never had a set of dress blues, either.
>>
>>Well, you would have, post-Korea. Blues were part of an
>>Officer's required kit, pilot or otherwise. ;->
>
>Now that you jog my memory, I do remember the day when an order
>arrived from Headquarters Marine Corps. Subject: Swagger Sticks.
>
>Para 1 said something like "On and after (date), all officers will
>carry swagger sticks."
>
>Para 2 said something like "Swagger Sticks will be 18 inches long,
>3/8ths of an inch in diameter, covered with cordovan leather........"
>
>Para 3 said something about not carrying an umbrella or a bag of
>groceries while carrying a Swagger Stick.
>
>Whoever started reading it aloud to a group of us in the Squadron
>office began to giggle, and eventually we all howled with laughter.
>
>That must have been a bout 1952 or 53. If anyone has a copy of that
>order, it would be a service to mankind's merriment if he were to post
>it here.

Actually, it was Officers and SNCOs [at a minimum, disremember
whether it included NCOs - Cpls and Sgts].

One of the shorter-lived "customs". One of David M. Shoup's [MOH
on Tarawa] first acts when he assumed his duties as CMC on 1 Jan
1960 was to meet with his staff, Marines and civilians, on 4 Jan
1960 to talk about things.

The remarks are available at:
http://hqinet001.hqmc.usmc.mil/HD/Historical/Docs_Speeches/Swaggerstick.htm

and were, as he noted in the introduction:

"INTRODUCTION

To all Marines, naval personnel and civilians who comprise our
operating organization:

Good Morning. Although I speak only to this small representative
group personally, provision has been made whereby these remarks
will be either read or heard by the majority of Marines of all
ranks at all posts and stations."

and went on for a few paragraphs of "new boss" stuff.

Other than that, the sum of the his remarks addressed Uniforms
and Equipment thusly:

"UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

Non-combat type uniform changes now being processed will be the
last such changes considered for some time unless directed by
higher authority. Anything relating to the uniform of the Marine
which better meets his needs in combat will be given high
priority action.

In general I feel that a clean, neat, well-fitted uniform with
the Marine Corps emblem is tops. There is no need for gimmicks
and gadgets.

With respect to equipment we should emphasize simplicity,
ruggedness and ease of maintenance. And in design and gadgetry
the characteristics we demand should be a pattern of the
necessary rather than the ideal. We shall continue to strive to
obtain in a timely manner the best possible combat equipment

There is one item of equipment about which I have a definite
opinion. It is the swagger stick. It shall remain an optional
item of interference. If you feel the need of it, carry it…"

In the DC area as a Marine brat at the time, I can state that no
swagger sticks were to be seen on January 5th - or ever again -
in the hand of a Marine Officer or SNCO. They got the message,
loud and clear, however quietly, indirectly, spoken. ;->

[Step-dad was a senior Marine lawyer {law school on the GI bill
post-WWII USMC service} at a time when the Marines had 150
billets for lawyers, 93 of them filled. He had a heart attack
and was being medically retired, physical for promotion waived,
as a LtCol in spring of 1961, just after I had enlisted and was
in the 120-day pool waiting for HS graduation/shipment to PI. As
a senior lawyer, Ted was granted a "good-bye, thanks for
everything" audience with the Commandant, family included. Ted
proudly advised the Commandant that although he regretted leaving
the USMC early, his replacement "your newest Marine, my step-son
Private Johnson, is about to leave for PI after graduation."
General Shoup avoided comment on my '50s DA-style haircut, and if
he even raised an eyebrow I didn't notice it as he shook my hand
- too busy staring at that MOH ribbon atop a rather impressive
set of other ribbons and badges. If I could have melted into the
wall, I would have.]




--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[Greasy Rider© @invalid.com]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:27:13 -0500, Ogden Johnson III
> postulated :

(snipped)

>"There is one item of equipment about which I have a definite
>opinion. It is the swagger stick. It shall remain an optional
>item of interference. If you feel the need of it, carry it"

At about this time frame there was an incident in my home town
involving a Marine officer, a elderly lady and what may have been
perceived as someone breaking in line at a local cafeteria. Believe it
or not but a minor scuffle broke out. A swagger stick was used either
in offense or defense. Within days I saw that same quote in the local
newspaper.

Semper Fi!
(Don't let the Blue Hairs take advantage)

[vincent p. norris]

Thanks for the link and the reminiscence, OJ.

vince norris

[Diamond Jim]

OJ, I think I was at Quantico, when the Uniform Regulations were changed to
reflect Gen Shoup's wishes. I believe the new edition of the regs was
published in early-mid '63. I am not sure if there was an ALMAR or a MCO on
the subject issued between the time Gen Shoup made his wishes know and the
change in the Uniform Regs.

I know that you couldn't even find a Swagger Stick for a souvenir in "Q"
town by the time I left in early 64.

[Ogden Johnson III]

"Diamond Jim" > wrote:

>OJ, I think I was at Quantico, when the Uniform Regulations were changed to
>reflect Gen Shoup's wishes. I believe the new edition of the regs was
>published in early-mid '63. I am not sure if there was an ALMAR or a MCO on
>the subject issued between the time Gen Shoup made his wishes know and the
>change in the Uniform Regs.
>
>I know that you couldn't even find a Swagger Stick for a souvenir in "Q"
>town by the time I left in early 64.

As a Marine Brat with an afternoon paper route that included MB
Pearl Harbor in 1955/6-ish, often as not I saw officers and SNCOs
carrying swagger sticks.

Following MB PH, in the DC area for my step-dad's back-to-back
tours with the USMC JAG then USN JAG offices, the "Capital
Military Region" varied between "wear the UD daily, keep a high
profile" and "wear civvies daily except once a week so we can see
if your UD still fits, keep a low profile" periods; and anyway a)
we were in the suburbs, and only had a chance to see uniforms if
we went into DC, b) presence or absence of uniforms/swagger
sticks was the last thing on my hormone-ridden mind.

However, from day one after my departure for PI on 6 July 1961, I
never saw a swagger stick in the hand of a Marine officer or
SNCO. Still a LCpl in 1963, any ALMAR/MCO deleting swagger
sticks would have escaped my mind, but by my personal
observations, it would seem that most Marines took Gen Shoup's
subtle hint on the subject to heart. ;-> Which in turn suggest
that whatever else that ALMAR/MCO may have changed in the uniform
regs, deletion of the swagger stick was an OBE item on the list.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[vincent p. norris]

>However, from day one after my departure for PI on 6 July 1961, I
>never saw a swagger stick in the hand of a Marine officer or
>SNCO.

My DI at PI, summer of 1946, a buck sergeant Jordan, carried a
swagger stick. I'll never forget it, or him. It was polished wood
with a .30 round at the tip. Entire round, not just the slug.

He used the stick to beat on our pith helmets if we failed in some
respect to meet his expectations. It didn't hurt, of course, but the
sound was certainly attention-getting!

vince norris

[Doug O'Neil]

It was done at MCRD San Diego in June 8th 1979

- Doug

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> My son-in-law, who was in the Navy about 30 years ago, mentioned at
> dinner today that the guy who graduated #1in his platoon at Marine
> boot camp was given a set of blues, free.
>
> I think that's an urban legend. It certainly wasn't the case when I
> went through Parris Island in 1946.
>
> Was it done at San Diego?
>
> Anyone know?
>
> Thanks. vince norris
>