2 aircraft cleared onto the same runway at the same time

[Tom Fleischman]

This was a new one for me.

I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.

I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
of anything like this being done there before, ever.

Did I miss something??

[Dave Stadt]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
> Did I miss something??

Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.

[Roy Smith]

In article
<250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >,
Tom Fleischman > wrote:

> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
> Did I miss something??

Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say for
sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.

[Robert Chambers]

Pretty sure it will only work for VFR VFR or VFR IFR. You need a
release from NY approach for the IFR departure and until the first one
is gone the second one would be tying up the runway which is something
they wouldn't like.

Another trick that can be employed where the runways and wind conditions
allow (like Bridgeport on a calm or light wind day). You are number 3
for departure on runway 24 and they have 3 people on final. Basically
you sit there and watch the hobbs tick over. The tower won't suggest it
but if you're comfortable with the wind for 29 you ask for a departure
on that runway. It does 2 nice things, 1 it gets you on your way sooner
and 2, there's one less departure for him to sequence along with the
incomings.

It helps to have intersections for both runways in more or less the same
place though.

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article
> <250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >,
> Tom Fleischman > wrote:
>
>
>>This was a new one for me.
>>
>>I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
>>sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
>>controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
>>asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
>>"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
>>feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
>>behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
>>reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
>>He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
>>position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
>>broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
>>a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>>
>>I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
>>of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>>
>>Did I miss something??
>
>
> Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
> departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say for
> sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.

[Joe Johnson]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
> Did I miss something??

I had the same thing at HPN two weeks ago. I was #2 at 34 behind another
single engine, both VFR and was cleared position & hold behind the other
aircraft. The only other time I've seen this was during my training. My
instructor & I flew to POU, where they cleared us onto the runway with
another plane. I remember my instructor asking me, "Do you know what the
tower is doing?" I replied, "I assume the plane in front is going to be
cleared for takeoff first because it wouldn't work the other way 'round." I
then heard him mutter "smart ass" under his breath.

[Journeyman]

In article <250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjunkatma >, Tom Fleischman wrote:
> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in

> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,

> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
> Did I miss something??

Nope. I've never seen that happen at HPN, but it's not uncommon at
other airports I've flown out of.


Morris

[Jack Allison]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.

My thought exactly. Perhaps the tower controller was getting prepped
for this year :-)



--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Matt Whiting]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
> message
> news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
>
>>This was a new one for me.
>>
>>I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
>>sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
>>controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
>>asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
>>"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
>>feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
>>behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
>>reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
>>He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
>>position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
>>broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
>>a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>>
>>I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
>>of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>>
>>Did I miss something??
>
>
> Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.
>
>

True, and you get nearly a formation take-off.

Matt

[Newps]

Tom Fleischman wrote:
> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.

Do it all the time here at BIL.

[Newps]

Roy Smith wrote:


>
>
> Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
> departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say for
> sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.

IFR or VFR is not relavant.

[Newps]

Jack Allison wrote:

> Dave Stadt wrote:
>
>> Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.
>
>
> My thought exactly. Perhaps the tower controller was getting prepped
> for this year :-)

Not likely as he's not eligible for OSH.

[Morgans]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote >
> Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.
>
I have never seen that. They do pull someone onto the runway in pairs, as
soon as the departing plane releases brakes. They line you up on left and
right sides of the runway, and alternate departing left, then right.

This was on 18; I don't what they do with the IFR departures on 9/27.
--
Jim in NC

[nooneimportant]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
message
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
> This was a new one for me.
>
> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
> Did I miss something??

Get it regualr out here at KDVT... busy training airport, not uncommon to
have one aircraft laning, with taxi into position and hold clearances issued
to aircraft holding at any number of taxiways located near the departure end
of eaither runway, I have seen up to 3 aircraft on the runway at one time...
1 on the rollout, 2 holding in position... guess its possible for a third
aircraft to be holding in position on 7R, there is C1 and C2, both are full
length (displaced threshold) and C3 (ALMOST full length, intersection
departure), but I've never seen it. Also know that under certain
circumstances multiple aircraft can be ROLLING at the same time on the same
runway, but can't recall what they are off the top of my head...

[Montblack]

("Newps" wrote)
>> My thought exactly. Perhaps the tower controller was getting prepped
>> for this year :-)
>
> Not likely as he's not eligible for OSH.


Who is? What are the requirements?


Montblack

[Peter R.]

Tom Fleischman > wrote:

> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
> of anything like this being done there before, ever.

See this a lot at Syracuse, NY.

--
Peter













----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote >
> > Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.
> >
> I have never seen that. They do pull someone onto the runway in pairs, as
> soon as the departing plane releases brakes. They line you up on left and
> right sides of the runway, and alternate departing left, then right.
>
> This was on 18; I don't what they do with the IFR departures on 9/27.
> --
> Jim in NC


You must never have left at high volume departure times. They will get at
least 6 lined up on 18 right, 2 wide and three deep. There will also be
departures on 18 left.

[Mitty]

On 3/25/2005 10:42 PM, Newps wrote the following:
>
>
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
>> departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
>> for sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is
>> VFR.
>
>
> IFR or VFR is not relavant.

Separation requirements make the crowding-onto-the-runway exercise unnecessary
if both flights are IFR, as the local controller would have plenty of time to
taxi the second IFR guy onto the runway before the second flight could be
released anyway.

[C J Campbell]

I have seen it at Boeing Field, Montgomery Field, and Riverside. It is
fairly common. I have even been cleared to land on the runway at the same
time as another airplane -- one of us is told to land long, or on the right
half of the runway, or both.

[C J Campbell]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Tom Fleischman" > wrote
in
> message
>
news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
>
> Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.

They do that at Arlington, too. It is one of the cool things about big
fly-ins.

[Mike W.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
> > departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
for
> > sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.
>
> IFR or VFR is not relavant.

He's right, the controller is not going to issue taxi and hold to a flight
that is going to have to wait 10 minutes to pick up clearance. If they are
ready to go, they are ready to go.

[Morgans]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote

> You must never have left at high volume departure times. They will get at
> least 6 lined up on 18 right, 2 wide and three deep. There will also be
> departures on 18 left.

I have been out there during "the push". I don't recall more than 2 wide
and one deep, with one just breaking ground. I guess that could be due to
the difference in individual controller's preferences, also. It could be
CRS, too! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Newps" wrote)
>
>>> My thought exactly. Perhaps the tower controller was getting prepped
>>> for this year :-)
>>
>>
>> Not likely as he's not eligible for OSH.
>
>
>
> Who is? What are the requirements?

Anybody from the Great Lakes region and checked out at your facility.

[Newps]

Mitty wrote:


>>
>>
>> IFR or VFR is not relavant.
>
>
> Separation requirements make the crowding-onto-the-runway exercise
> unnecessary if both flights are IFR, as the local controller would have
> plenty of time to taxi the second IFR guy onto the runway before the
> second flight could be released anyway.

You need 3000 feet between two single engine aircraft for your runway
separation and then 15 degrees divergence for your IFR separation.

[Montblack]

("Newps" wrote)
> Anybody from the Great Lakes region and checked out at your facility.


Thanks.

http://www.agl.faa.gov/publicaffairs/Archives/1999%20FS/atcfacts1.html
(ATC - Great Lakes Region)


Montblack

[Blabla]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
>> departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
>> for sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is
>> VFR.
>
>
> IFR or VFR is not relavant.

Size is ! turbulence effect should be kepp in mind :-)

[Robert Chambers]

Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
released for takeoff.

For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off
until the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has
landed.

Mike W. wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
>>>departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
>
> for
>
>>>sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is VFR.
>>
>>IFR or VFR is not relavant.
>
>
> He's right, the controller is not going to issue taxi and hold to a flight
> that is going to have to wait 10 minutes to pick up clearance. If they are
> ready to go, they are ready to go.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Chambers" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
> airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
> released for takeoff.
>

Yes, but at a controlled field that can occur rather quickly.


>
> For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off until
> the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has landed.
>

Not true at a controlled field.

[Newps]

Robert Chambers wrote:
> Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
> airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
> released for takeoff.

At a towered airport you are talking runway separation. After the first
plane is 3000 feet down the runway the next one can be launched.


>
> For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off
> until the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has
> landed.

No. The tower can provide visual separation if it doesn't have radar.

[Robert Chambers]

It may depend on the field, but if you have an IFR arrival inbound on an
ILS approach, and an IFR departure waiting to take to the skies, the guy
on the ground is not going to be released. At larger airports where
they have more runways or larger distances separating incoming from
outgoing they can squeeze the timing a bit. From my home field (class
D) I know this to be the case.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Robert Chambers" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
>>airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
>>released for takeoff.
>>
>
>
> Yes, but at a controlled field that can occur rather quickly.
>
>
>
>>For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off until
>>the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has landed.
>>
>
>
> Not true at a controlled field.
>
>

[Robert Chambers]

And what happens if the incoming plane goes missed? You're assuming an
awful lot about what the tower guy can and cannot see.

My home field tower doesn't have radar, or a brite scope slaved from the
approach control.

If there's an incoming IFR flight, and you want to go out IFR, you are
not going to be released until the incoming plane either lands or
cancels IFR.

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Robert Chambers wrote:
>
>> Sure it is relevant, until one IFR flight has cleared the part of the
>> airspace relevant to his departure the second IFR flight cannot be
>> released for takeoff.
>
>
> At a towered airport you are talking runway separation. After the first
> plane is 3000 feet down the runway the next one can be launched.
>
>
>>
>> For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off
>> until the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has
>> landed.
>
>
> No. The tower can provide visual separation if it doesn't have radar.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Chambers" > wrote in message
om...
>
> It may depend on the field, but if you have an IFR arrival inbound on an
> ILS approach, and an IFR departure waiting to take to the skies, the guy
> on the ground is not going to be released.
>

That is not correct.


>
> At larger airports where they have more runways or larger distances
> separating incoming from outgoing they can squeeze the timing a bit. From
> my home field (class D) I know this to be the case.
>

You believe that to be the case, but that is not the case. You are
misinformed.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Chambers" > wrote in message
om...
>
> And what happens if the incoming plane goes missed?
>

Nothing.


>
> You're assuming an awful lot about what the tower guy can and cannot see.
>
> My home field tower doesn't have radar, or a brite scope slaved from the
> approach control.
>
> If there's an incoming IFR flight, and you want to go out IFR, you are not
> going to be released until the incoming plane either lands or cancels IFR.
>

Well, it's done regularly. Whoever told you this stuff doesn't know what
he's talking about.

[Jose]

>> For the same reason a plane holding for IFR release cannot take off until
>> the IFR arrival he's waiting for has either cancelled IFR or has landed.
> Not true at a controlled field.

Assuming IMC, what does a controller do to ensure separation in the air
for the departing aircraft from an arriving IFR aircraft who has not
cancelled IFR or landed?

Or is your comment limited to VMC?

Jose
r.a.s trimmed
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

Robert Chambers wrote:
> It may depend on the field, but if you have an IFR arrival inbound on an
> ILS approach, and an IFR departure waiting to take to the skies, the guy
> on the ground is not going to be released.

No reason not to if there is a tower.


At larger airports where
> they have more runways or larger distances separating incoming from
> outgoing they can squeeze the timing a bit.

The number of runways or their spacing is irrelavant.

[Newps]

Robert Chambers wrote:

> And what happens if the incoming plane goes missed?

He is issued a vector.


You're assuming an
> awful lot about what the tower guy can and cannot see.

No I am not. Been there done that.


>
> My home field tower doesn't have radar,
or a brite scope slaved from the
> approach control.

Neither did the one I worked at.

>
> If there's an incoming IFR flight, and you want to go out IFR, you are
> not going to be released until the incoming plane either lands or
> cancels IFR.

Your tower is not using all the tools available to it.

[Newps]

Jose wrote:


>
> Assuming IMC,

Which isn't relavant.


what does a controller do to ensure separation in the air
> for the departing aircraft from an arriving IFR aircraft who has not
> cancelled IFR or landed?

Issue a heading that guarantees separation.


>
> Or is your comment limited to VMC?

Doesn't matter.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Assuming IMC, what does a controller do to ensure separation in the air
> for the departing aircraft from an arriving IFR aircraft who has not
> cancelled IFR or landed?
>

He applies an approved form of separation. There are a variety to choose
from, visual and radar are probably the most commonly used, but there are
nonradar techniques as well.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp6/atc0603.html


>
> Or is your comment limited to VMC?
>

Nope.

[B. Jensen]

Tom,

I believe that as long as both aircraft are diverging by >30 degrees on
climbout headings, this is perfectly legal.

BJ

Tom Fleischman wrote:

>This was a new one for me.
>
>I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
>sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
>controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
>asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
>"Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
>feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
>behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
>reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
>He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
>position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
>broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
>a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>
>I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
>of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>
>Did I miss something??
>
>

[Jose]

>> what does a controller do to ensure separation in the air
>> for the departing aircraft from an arriving IFR aircraft who has not cancelled IFR or landed?
>
> Issue a heading that guarantees separation.

What are the separation requirements?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> He applies an approved form of separation. There are a variety to choose
> from, visual and radar are probably the most commonly used, but there are
> nonradar techniques as well.
>
> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp6/atc0603.html

Thanks Steven - very helpful. :)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Highflyer]

"Blabla" > wrote in message
.. .
> Newps wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Tom. That's a common trick the tower uses at HPN to get multiple
>>> departures out quicker. I get it every once in a while. I can't say
>>> for sure, but I suspect it's only possible when one of the flights is
>>> VFR.
>>
>>
>> IFR or VFR is not relavant.
>
> Size is ! turbulence effect should be kepp in mind :-)

Right. I took off from Oshkosh once in a Taylorcraft. There was a Tailwind
next to me who took off first. I broke ground just before the point where
he broke ground. When I flew into his wake I got rolled about fortyfive
degrees at less than 10 feet AGL. It INSTANTLY got my full attention! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Roger]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 01:05:27 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>
>"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in
>message
>news:250320051938408267%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
>> This was a new one for me.
>>
>> I was IFR this afternoon out of HPN for short practice flight. I was in
>> sequence number two at the runway waiting for departure. As the tower
>> controller cleared the Cessna in front of me to position and hold, he
>> asked him his direction of flight. The Cessna pilot responded
>> "Northbound". The controller then instructed the Cessna to position 50
>> feet north on Rwy 34, and then he cleared me to position and hold
>> behind the Cessna. The Cessna was VFR. I questioned the clearance,
>> reminding him that there was an airplane on the runway in front of me.
>> He told me to position and hold behind the traffic. As I taxiied into
>> position, he cleared the Cessna for takeoff and as soon as the Cessna
>> broke ground he cleared me for takeoff. I was using a DP which includes
>> a turn to the left. The Cessna was instructed to turn out to the right.
>>
>> I've been flying out of HPN since 1992 and I have never seen or heard
>> of anything like this being done there before, ever.
>>
>> Did I miss something??
>
>Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.

Last time I took off on 18 at OSH (left side of centerline), I not
only passed the guy ahead of me, but I caught the next one just
beyond the end of the runway, made my left turn at 3000 and headed for
home.

Landing? Absolutely no place for a pilot who always flys a stabilized
pattern. I counted 25 between down wind, base and final. Of course
base and final are *short*. <:-))

The 25 were all north of the control tower to the water tower, down
wind, base, and final.

That was the day the "Blue Bonanza" flew a regular pattern instead of
strictly adhering to the tower's instructions.

Blue Bonanza, put your gear down now... Blue Bonanza put your gear
down.... Blue Bonanza, turn base now.... Blue Bonanza turn base
NOW!... Blue...Bonanza...Turn...BASE... NOW...
Awhhhhh...Don't go clearrrr to the lake.

(I wish I had that one on tape)

He did, down wind to the lake, base and then final all the way from
the lake with IFR traffic coming in on the VOR 27.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>
> That was the day the "Blue Bonanza" flew a regular pattern instead of
> strictly adhering to the tower's instructions.
>
> Blue Bonanza, put your gear down now... Blue Bonanza put your gear
> down.... Blue Bonanza, turn base now.... Blue Bonanza turn base
> NOW!... Blue...Bonanza...Turn...BASE... NOW...
> Awhhhhh...Don't go clearrrr to the lake.
>

Winnebago or Michigan?

[Dave Butler]

Morgans wrote:
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote >
>
>>Never been to OSH eh? You get lined up six at a time.
>>
>
> I have never seen that. They do pull someone onto the runway in pairs, as
> soon as the departing plane releases brakes. They line you up on left and
> right sides of the runway, and alternate departing left, then right.
>
> This was on 18; I don't what they do with the IFR departures on 9/27.

That's my recollection, too. I don't remember ever seeing 6 at a time except for
the airshow performers.

[Dave Stadt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Roger" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That was the day the "Blue Bonanza" flew a regular pattern instead of
> > strictly adhering to the tower's instructions.
> >
> > Blue Bonanza, put your gear down now... Blue Bonanza put your gear
> > down.... Blue Bonanza, turn base now.... Blue Bonanza turn base
> > NOW!... Blue...Bonanza...Turn...BASE... NOW...
> > Awhhhhh...Don't go clearrrr to the lake.
> >
>
> Winnebago or Michigan?


Huron

[Dave Butler]

Highflyer wrote:

> Right. I took off from Oshkosh once in a Taylorcraft. There was a Tailwind
> next to me who took off first. I broke ground just before the point where
> he broke ground. When I flew into his wake I got rolled about fortyfive
> degrees at less than 10 feet AGL. It INSTANTLY got my full attention! :-)

Same thing happened to me on landing in a Cherokee behind a light twin at
Lakeland. I was in the right seat, not flying. The pilot flying handled it and
got it down. I think that was the most fear I've ever felt in a GA airplane.

[Newps]

B. Jensen wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I believe that as long as both aircraft are diverging by >30 degrees on
> climbout headings, this is perfectly legal.

15 degrees.