L 33 Solo Gliders

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
He also measured the performance at 31/1
For those who have owned these...
Are they easy or difficult to rig?
How have they held up?
Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
Are they nice to thermal?
Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
Thanks in advance!
Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

[George Haeh]

I flew one twice, landed out on second flight and spent more time than I liked figuring out how the wheel brake worked.

Rig and derig better than many other gliders of similar vintage.

Comparable performance and handling to the PW-5 for less money. Neither has penetration. The accident record is well populated with L-33s trying to stretch glides back to the home field.

I saw one written off because the canopy was not properly closed and the pilot held the canopy down and sideslipped because he did not have a hand free to use the spoilers. The pin can sit on top of the tube leaving a really narrow gap that is hard to catch.

HINT: Right rudder.

Parts can be a problem.

[Dave Walsh[_2_]]

At 15:33 14 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K
Canadian, that
>about 9400 USD.
>I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was
concerned that
>it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily
drop into a
>spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training
before
>taking it out.
>He also measured the performance at 31/1
>For those who have owned these...
>Are they easy or difficult to rig?
>How have they held up?
>Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal
except for
>the rudder which is fabric]
>Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
>Are they nice to thermal?
>Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
>Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
>Thanks in advance!
>Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.
>
Never flown one but why would you buy a glider that readily spins
at any price? It's not like there are no alternatives.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 12:30:06 PM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
> At 15:33 14 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> >In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K
> Canadian, that
> >about 9400 USD.
> >I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was
> concerned that
> >it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily
> drop into a
> >spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training
> before
> >taking it out.
> >He also measured the performance at 31/1
> >For those who have owned these...
> >Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> >How have they held up?
> >Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal
> except for
> >the rudder which is fabric]
> >Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> >Are they nice to thermal?
> >Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> >Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> >Thanks in advance!
> >Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.
> >
> Never flown one but why would you buy a glider that readily spins
> at any price? It's not like there are no alternatives.

SGS-2-32, North American T-6, both spin readily and are great birds!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 3/14/2020 12:46 PM:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 12:30:06 PM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
>> At 15:33 14 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
..
..
..
>>> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.
>>>
>> Never flown one but why would you buy a glider that readily spins
>> at any price? It's not like there are no alternatives.
>
> SGS-2-32, North American T-6, both spin readily and are great birds!
>
For your 14 year old son?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 12:49:19 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 3/14/2020 12:46 PM:
> > On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 12:30:06 PM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
> >> At 15:33 14 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> .
> .
> .
> >>> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.
> >>>
> >> Never flown one but why would you buy a glider that readily spins
> >> at any price? It's not like there are no alternatives.
> >
> > SGS-2-32, North American T-6, both spin readily and are great birds!
> >
> For your 14 year old son?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

Nick,
Our club has a couple and I've flown them on occasion. I'm not a big guy, but I found them very tight through the shoulders. They can be tied out, but our experience is that they aren't very rugged and accumulate lots of rash in a club environment. They particularly don't like tail first landings.

For your 14yo son, you might consider an older standard Astir or a Jantar. They're built like tanks (particularly the Jantar). I've flew an Astir as a younger pilot and found it to have decent performance and to handle reliably. Not as harmonious as an LS-3, but very honest.

Cheers,
Craig
JN

[[email protected]]

I was fortunate to have been in a club which had an L-33. I found it to be a joy to fly. The cockpit was comfortable, and it had great visibility and control harmony. If your son is solo in an L-23 or Grob, he should have no problem with an L-33. Of course, with it's lighter weight and shorter wings it is more nimble. It requires a little more care to maintain proper pitch attitude, almost like flying a single seat glass ship.

There are really no serious "Got ya's" from a flying standpoint. I intentionally stalled and spun the L-33 many times. Stall and spin entries were predictable, as were the recoveries. Nor were the stall or spin entries abrupt or without warning.

One thing to be aware of is that the spoilers are extremely effective. Trying to flare with full spoilers and low airspeed will likely mean banging down hard tail first and putting creases in the tail cone just forward of the vertical stabilizer.

Tying down all year is just fine. Of course, like anything else left out, the weather will take it's toll. Be aware that the pin that holds the horizontal stabilizer needs to be taken out more than once a year to be cleaned and greased. Otherwise, it can seize. I can tell you from personal experience that makes it a major pain to take off the horizontal stabilizer.

Rigging is easy, primarily due to the light weight and short wings. However, two things to be aware of. Somebody who is completely unfamiliar with an L-33 can get the main pins installed in such a way that they look like they are in and locked, but are not. On glass ships, the spar butt length is about the width of the fuselage, but on the L-33 the spar butt length is about half the width of the fuselage. That makes it difficult to hang on to it while sticking the spar butt into the hole. Best to use three people, two on root (one on the trailing edge, one on leading edge), and one on the tip. Or use one man rigging gear. Yes, I have rigged L-33s many time with only two people, but it was a challenge for me to handle the root by myself.

Flying X-C in the L-33 was fun, but it was annoying to watch the glass ships consistently out run me. Out climbing them was fun, though. Look on the bright side, your son's land outs will be closer to home. Make sure you get a good trailer.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Nick Kennedy wrote on 3/14/2020 8:33 AM:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

I suggest you also consider fiberglass gliders, and if you think putting them away
will be too much trouble, budget some money for a set of covers. W&W, Craggy Aero
have good covers in the $1200 range, and gliders often have covers already. But,
putting a 15M glider away in a good trailer isn't difficult in a club situation
(lots of help). If you are a weekend flyer, it can be left out Saturday night to
be flown on Sunday - two flights, one rig/derig isn't bad.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

Nick consider a schweizer 1-26. Very very safe and predictable, easy two man rigging and you can leave tied out for the season if you like. I can’t tell you how many times I have come out to the club on a so-so day and untied her and gone for a nice spin while the glass boys stand around hem-hawing deciding if its worth it to go to the trouble of rigging lol.

As for a learning tool, I can tell you your son will learn more about thermalling, efficient cruising, and calc final glides flying a season or two in a 1-26 than he will in a higher performance ship. When he is then ready to move up in performance, he will be a hell of alot better pilot, and the resale value is there with a ready market and great factory and 1-26 association support.
Dan

[Roy B.]

Hi Nick:

My club has one and I have flown it a few times and checked out many students in it. Here are a few comments:

Pluses: Can be left outside tied down (we do during the season), reasonably light and easy to rig/derig, excellent integrated seat ballast system, good balance and control harmony, climbs very well, seating is more reclined than comparable gliders, looks like a modern glider.

Minuses: Ours has a tendency to drop a wing on takeoff (that may relate to the reclined seating position), parts & factory support can be an issue, check carefully for wing tip fore & aft slop and elevator tip up/down slop, also they have a crude metal tail dolly & wheel that looks like it was made in the 19th century for coal mining operations. All Blaniks seem to have difficulty with non factory repainting still looking good after a while. Their aluminum requires really good surface prep to repaint. Ours is all metal finish and that is more desirable.

Suggestions: Have your son at least sit in it for 30 minutes or so with parachute on before buying and get him some good spin recognition and recovery training before flying it. But with that don't be put off by the spin characteristics. Lots of gliders he will fly in his career will spin.

Comparable gliders to consider: Pilatus B-4, Schweizer 1-34 or 1-36 Sprite, Laister LP-49.

FWIW: When my son was 14 we got him a 1-26E. Admittedly they don't have the glide performance - but from one father to another, that's what you want his first off airport landing to be in.
Good Luck
Roy B, Chief Pilot GBSC

[George Haeh]

I flew one twice; landed out on second flight and spent more time than I liked figuring out how the wheel brake worked.

Rig and derig better than many other gliders of similar vintage.

Comparable performance and handling to the PW-5 for less money. Neither has penetration. The accident record is well populated with L-33s trying to stretch glides back to the home field.

I saw one written off because the canopy was not properly closed and the pilot held the canopy down with one hand and sideslipped because he did not have a hand free to use the spoilers. The pin can sit on top of the tube leaving a really narrow gap that is hard to catch. The cockpit now is used in a simulator where I've spent more L-33 time than in the air.

HINT: Left rudder might help keep a loose canopy from departing (reluctant to flight test).

Parts can be a problem.

[[email protected]]

The 1-26 is fine for 1 season but the L-33 is something your son can grow with. Like others have said make sure he's got some good spin training and have the glider inspected before buying it.

-DT

[[email protected]]

I have been “growing� with the 1-26 for 45 years and still have much to learn regarding achieving all that these little ships can do. After doing silver, gold and one diamond in 1-26’s, there is still more left to learn.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Thanks guys for taking the time to write back with your experiences!
The all metal thing is a big + no gelcoat issues!
So at this point the L33, Libelle, Astir and Jantar are on our short list.
Thanks again for the honest opinion's, they help a lot!
Fly safe in 2020

[[email protected]]

I’m looking to sell my PW-5. Contact me off list if interested.

[Roy B.]

The all metal thing is a big + no gelcoat issues!
So at this point the L33, Libelle, Astir and Jantar are on our short list.


Nick:
You might want to open that list up to include the Pilatus B-4. There are 3 for sale on W&W right now. There is a guy in France who supports it with parts and information, they are Swiss made and hold value well, similar in performance to the L-33 but with retractable gear, and handle and feel much like the std. Grob/Astir. Our club has a 1-26, a 1-34, an L-33 and a B-4. The B-4 is the most popular of the 4 ships for early XC.
There is an AD on cracking at the front bulkhead but most have complied with that by now.
ROY

[[email protected]]

Nick I can second the approval of a Pilatus. I flew one for about 5 years. Its the first higher performance ship I flew after/along side the 1-26. They are robust, we left ours outside every season, climb good but not spectacular against a headwind. The elevators are pretty powerfull hence watch for pio’s the first few flights. After flying one for a few years my transition into a ventus was absolutely anticlimatic.
Dan

[Chris Behm]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 8:33:59 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

I thought that there was issues buying a Canadian ship and bringing it to the USA?
If so, that one in NC for 11K might be worth the few extra bucks and it has very low hours?
Just a thought.
R,
Chris

[Chris Behm]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 8:33:59 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.


I thought that there were often "issues" with buying a glider from Canada?
I will say that the price/age ratio of the L33 is pretty great.

R,
Chris

[Charles Longley]

There’s good deals on L-33’s to be had. I’ve been maintaining the two that Craig spoke of for the last 4 years and have some experience flying them. They’re very rugged but parts can be an issue. Drag an aileron on pavement? $6,000 for a new one from Vitek. (They’re not repairable.) Great flying, comfortable ship that can be left outside. I think a L-23 is more prone to spin than a L-33. Not much of cross country machine but better than an 1-26.

[George Haeh]

The gotcha in buying a glider from Canada is that some state DMVs can be finicky with trailer imports - same applies to Canada with the addition of a detestable, obtuse and lethargically responsive federal agency called the Registrar of Imported Vehicles.

Many gliders in Canada were imported from the US; so, if the original US records have been preserved, your local FSDO shouldn't make any problems. Do check with them first.

Much easier, cheaper and quicker to get an imported glider flying in the US than in Canada.

With the Canadian dollar down, it's a good time to buy in Canada.

[Tom BravoMike]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 10:59:17 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Thanks guys for taking the time to write back with your experiences!
> The all metal thing is a big + no gelcoat issues!
> So at this point the L33, Libelle, Astir and Jantar are on our short list.
> Thanks again for the honest opinion's, they help a lot!
> Fly safe in 2020

Interesting. I would never consider the Jantars as safe gliders for beginners, as solid as they are. IIRC, 100h flight time was required from us in my club. PW-5 yes, by all means. I have flown both.

[[email protected]]

That PW5, now theres an ugly sailplane. I wish the Russia had won that competition back in the day.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 11:33:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

I had a 2 hour flight in a friend's newly imported L33 about 20 years ago. It was a very pleasant sailplane to fly. It thermalled like it was on rails. It was quite responsive. The downside was that rigging it was not fun. It always took at least 3 people to get the spar pins properly assembled. All the club experts were not able to figure out why this particular L33 was a problem to rig. So if you can leave it assembled, it would be a good ship for a good low time pilot.

Chuck Zabinski

[Marton KSz]

A weak point of L-33s (aside from the abrupt stall characteristics) is the weak (spar-less) outer wings. A common faith of these gliders is digging the wingtip into the ground. Holding wings level is therefore mandatory until full stop.

An interesting quirk can be the misalignment of the airbrakes: If they extend way too much, laminar airflow can reestablish through the gap between the top of the wing surface and the bottom of the perforated airbrake plates, giving the impression that the glider actually flies slightly better with fully extended airbrakes. I observed this only on one example so far but it was noticeable; probably can be easily fixed by adjusting the airbrake stop.

Overall the L33 is a great glider, good climber and fun to fly. Perfect for local soaring. Got my silver distance in it, but could easily have flown barn doors on that day.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:05:48 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> That PW5, now theres an ugly sailplane. I wish the Russia had won that
> competition back in the day.

A certain French bull didn't thing one was ugly!

I've flown a PW-5 once off aero tow. Was OK, quite nice to fly but felt
slow and very light - a bit like a paper bag. I flew a Std Libelle after
that (my first flight in one) and much preferred it.

To put that in context, my first post-solo single-seat glider was an SZD
Junior, which I flew exclusively until I had my Silver. This was followed
by conversion to a Pegase (at Williams Soaring), followed by my club's
Pegase 90 and Discus B. I was XC rated in the Pegase, which I'd flown a
Regional in, and Discus before before flying the PW-5 and Libelle in NZ
during a visit.

I was warned in the preflight briefing for the PW-5 that they can easily
PIO on aero tow launches because too much back stick at the start will
make them pop off the ground too early and steeply. Then an instinctive
sudden push on the stick will make them hit the floor nosewheel first,
and that this is amplified by the short wheelbase converting the nosewheel
hit followed immediately by a mainwheel bounce into an even steeper pitch-
up. That said I did pick the nose up gently but fairly early and found it
easy to hold that attitude until it lifted off. After that the tow was
quite normal.

Bringing things up to date, I love my Libelle, which gets winched and
aero towed, and have no plans to sell it any time soon, but I would like
to fly a 1-26 to see how it goes. That sports canopy sounds like fun in
summer.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

> Interesting. I would never consider the Jantars as safe gliders for beginners, as solid as they are. IIRC, 100h flight time was required from us in my club. PW-5 yes, by all means. I have flown both.

While this thread isn't about Jantars, what, apart from it being slippery glass makes them unsuitable? I guess the forward visibility on aerotow isn't the greatest either but that's a pretty minor issue. They're pretty good back for buck.

WRT L 33, aren't those pretty much unrepairable?

(disclaimer: have Jantar Std 2, flown all the Std Jantars)

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:32:10 -0700, Marton KSz wrote:

> A weak point of L-33s (aside from the abrupt stall characteristics) is
> the weak (spar-less) outer wings. A common faith of these gliders is
> digging the wingtip into the ground. Holding wings level is therefore
> mandatory until full stop.
>
> An interesting quirk can be the misalignment of the airbrakes: If they
> extend way too much, laminar airflow can reestablish through the gap
> between the top of the wing surface and the bottom of the perforated
> airbrake plates, giving the impression that the glider actually flies
> slightly better with fully extended airbrakes. I observed this only on
> one example so far but it was noticeable; probably can be easily fixed
> by adjusting the airbrake stop.
>
> Overall the L33 is a great glider, good climber and fun to fly. Perfect
> for local soaring. Got my silver distance in it, but could easily have
> flown barn doors on that day.

It would be interesting to compare with the SZD Junior as a first solo
singe seater.

BTW, thinking of rigging, we had a private Pilatus B-4 on our field
several years ago, Its owner liked it, but it was one of the harder
glider on the field to scare up a rigging crew for. This was due to two
things:

- There was an absolute prohibition on lowering the wings below rigged
dihedral because this would bend the underwing root fairings.

- mating the wing attachment lugs with the corresponding fuselage
fittings. These parts had SwissWatch-like tolerances so there was a lot
of time spent holding each wing at the right position to avoid bending
the fairing while jiggling it until the lower pins pins went in. The
upper pins were easy after that.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tom BravoMike]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 6:58:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Interesting. I would never consider the Jantars as safe gliders for beginners, as solid as they are. IIRC, 100h flight time was required from us in my club. PW-5 yes, by all means. I have flown both.
>
> While this thread isn't about Jantars, what, apart from it being slippery glass makes them unsuitable? I guess the forward visibility on aerotow isn't the greatest either but that's a pretty minor issue. They're pretty good back for buck.
>
> WRT L 33, aren't those pretty much unrepairable?
>
> (disclaimer: have Jantar Std 2, flown all the Std Jantars)

Right, this thread is not about Jantars, but the original poster, who is asking for an opinion, wrote 'So at this point the L33, Libelle, Astir and Jantar are on our short list.' And he mentions his 14 years old son.

What makes Jantars unsuitable for beginners? They are relatively fast gliders for the age, meant for competitions at the time they were designed, and as such THEY SPIN - which is no issue for an experienced pilot but can be a disaster for a beginner. Next, the reclined position, far reach to the panel, high main wheel = limited forward visibility on the ground. With some experience, a beauty to own and to fly.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 11:33:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

[MNLou]

Nick -

I purchased a PW-5 before I soloed. I took 6 solo flights in our club ASK-21 and then soloed my PW-5 and never turned back. I loved the PW-5.

It is a perfect glider for a new pilot. Easy to rig, flies beautifully, climbs on mouse farts, and very forgiving. I did all legs of the silver badge, 3 contests, and almost 100 hours in the PeeWee before moving up into an 18m ship.

I have rigged and de-rigged an L-33. I'm told they fly beautifully but they are a pain to rig / de-rig vs a PW-5.

Lou

[[email protected]]

But you have to pay people to take photographs of the PW-5, as it is so ugly that the camera may be damaged.

One of our club members observed that it "looks like a pot-bellied pig wearing orthopedic shoes."

[Tom BravoMike]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 8:46:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> But you have to pay people to take photographs of the PW-5, as it is so ugly that the camera may be damaged.
>
> One of our club members observed that it "looks like a pot-bellied pig wearing orthopedic shoes."

Yeah... Indeed very funny to read, and I remember very well 20+ years ago on this newsgroup someone would ask every few days: 'Do the PW-5's still suck?' But IMHO it was that kind of mood created around this glider which killed the idea of the World Class aiming at making soaring popular again (MSPA as inspired by MAGA, lol). So now we can ask and discuss here on r.a.s. again and again 'What can be done to attract more people to our beloved sport?' Self-destruction mode, full-speed.

[[email protected]]

Since its normal to answer questions not asked on RAS, I throw this out there. The ASW 15 is a very suitable glider for a beginner, especially the ones that don't have the off-center release. Very easy to rig and fly. east to land short due to great spoilers. It just so happens I have one for sale that, due to a low max gross, would be great for anyone under 184 lbs. - like a 14 year old!

[Dave Walsh[_2_]]

Well here in France it seems all gliding clubs have been asked to
close voluntarily for now....Covid-19.
So, back to the "thread". I think the advice to get some spin
training is missing the whole point. Obviously ALL glider pilots
should have spin training: they all do don't they? Or am I missing
something about glider training in the US of A?
My point is that it's irrelevant to be able to recognise a spin in the
final turn: you're probably going to die.
Now I know the plan is that all circuit manoeuvres are flown at
appropriate air speeds, angles of attack etc BUT pilots are human
and humans make errors. Who has not had a "Jesus" moment?
So, given that pilots make errors, why put your son in an aircraft
that spins readily? Choose a glider that is reluctant to spin and
gives lots of warnings; plenty of suitable gliders mentioned in
earlier posts.
Certainly spin training is a good idea but it's not a criteria for
choosing a glider.

[Dan Marotta]

Or the US contestant.Â* I forgot the name, but have a t-shirt.Â* I thought
it was a better prospect from the performance standpoint, but it was a
day late in being submitted and was, therefore, disqualified.Â* Ah, the
good old days when people stuck to the rules...

Or did I remember it incorrectly?

On 3/15/2020 4:05 PM, wrote:
> That PW5, now theres an ugly sailplane. I wish the Russia had won that competition back in the day.

--
Dan, 5J

[BobWa43]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 11:33:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

I owned and flew an L-33 for about 3 years and 500 hours. It never once stalled without warning or spun. I was able to complete my Gold distance and Diamond Goal flight in it, flying in Kentucky. Overall, I really liked the glider and only sold to move up in performance.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:31:58 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Or the US contestant.Â* I forgot the name, but have a t-shirt.Â* I thought
> it was a better prospect from the performance standpoint, but it was a
> day late in being submitted and was, therefore, disqualified.Â* Ah, the
> good old days when people stuck to the rules...
>
> Or did I remember it incorrectly?
>
> On 3/15/2020 4:05 PM, wrote:
> > That PW5, now theres an ugly sailplane. I wish the Russia had won that competition back in the day.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

From a post (not mine) in ras 17 June 1994:

"In aerokurier 12/92 was a report of the World Class Glider competition which
was executed in September 1992 in Oerlinghausen, Germany.

The requirements set by IGC were:
- construction after JAR22
- performance like a Ka6
- minimum airspeed = 65 km/h
- price about 30,000 DM

There were 83 announcements to this competition. At least only 44 designs were
sent to the IGC. The IGC selected 11 designs for the eliminating contest in
Oerlinghausen. On this contest only 6 prototypes were presented:

- Velino (Italy)
- PW5 (Poland)
- Russia I, Russia II (USSR)
- Cygnet 1C (USA)
- L 33 Solo (Czechia)
- SZD-51-2 Junior (modification) (Poland)

The PW5 was designed by students of the University of Warzawa (correct
spelling?) with financial support of the PZL Swidnik helicopter factory. The
modification of the SZD-51-2 Junior was from PZL Bielsko, the traditional
glider factory in Poland.

The Russia I didn't reach the requirement because the min speed is above the
requirement. So the designer stretched the wingspan from 11.1m to 12.6m which
became the Russia II.

The Cygnet 1C did not fulfill the JAR22 construction requirements and was
excluded from the contest very early.

On the last day the only German contribution to the competition arrived: the
minair from a group of students from the University in Hamburg. But it had no
registration and couldn't be flown.

This is a brief summary of this competition extracted from an article."

[gotovkotzepkoi]

;1013700']At 15:33 14 March 2020, Nick Kennedy wrote:
In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K
Canadian, that
about 9400 USD.
I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was
concerned that
it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily
drop into a
spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training
before
taking it out.
He also measured the performance at 31/1
For those who have owned these...
Are they easy or difficult to rig?
How have they held up?
Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal
except for
the rudder which is fabric]
Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
Are they nice to thermal?
Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
Thanks in advance!
Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

Never flown one but why would you buy a glider that readily spins
at any price? It's not like there are no alternatives.

Typical smarta#s answer that ****e# people off. Come on. This person is asking whether anyone has any info confirming this.

[India November[_2_]]

Gatineau Glidong Club in Ottawa Canada operates three L-33 Solos for club use over about 15 years. They were very nice vice-free gliders safely flown by low time club pilots. We still have a clean example for sale on W&W at a good price if you're interested. The club eeplaced them with a pait of Juniors.

Ian IN

[ProfJ]

On Saturday, 14 March 2020 09:33:59 UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

Nick, you planning on basing it in Telluride? If so and interested in partnering, call me at (+ you know what) 880 0390.

[son_of_flubber]

Consider whether your pilot is prepared to aerotow on a C.G. hook. Some L-33 do not have a nose hook. It is possible to add a nose hook to an L-33.

[Charles Longley]

Both L-33’s Ive flown have both hooks. The CG hook is good for training into CG hooked glass ships. The nose hook is certainly an option if it’s not installed.

[Hawkcrom]

On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 10:54:38 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> Both L-33’s Ive flown have both hooks. The CG hook is good for training into CG hooked glass ships. The nose hook is certainly an option if it’s not installed.

This is not true ,let me be clear, the CG hook on a L-33 is exclusively for winch only and the nose hook is exclusively for aerotow, the CG is NOT for training or transitioning for a CG hook equipped ship

[Hawkcrom]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2020 at 10:07:52 AM UTC-6, Hawkcrom wrote:
> On Friday, March 27, 2020 at 10:54:38 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> > Both L-33’s Ive flown have both hooks. The CG hook is good for training into CG hooked glass ships. The nose hook is certainly an option if it’s not installed.
>
> This is not true ,let me be clear, the CG hook on a L-33 is exclusively for winch only and the nose hook is exclusively for aerotow, the CG is NOT for training or transitioning for a CG hook equipped ship

All L-33s have a nose CG ,I would need to see a picture of one without one to be a believer

[Stephen Szikora]

From the L33 Solo group FAQ:

Question: What type of tow hook is used?

Answer: A TOST G 88/1-83 for the CG/lower hook and a TOST E 85/1-85 for the nose/forward if installed.

[Stephen Szikora]

Hightime ... read the manual. Section 2.11 is very clear, The CG hook IS used for aerotow and a nose hook MAY be installed.

[Charles Longley]

Well that’s how my club rolls. Looking at the L-33 Flight Manual there’s a WARNING in big bold letters, “NOSE HOOK MUST NOT BE USED FOR WINCH OPERATIONS.� There is no warning against using the CG hook for Aerotow operations.

But hey you be you!

[Charles Longley]

Guess he’s not very high time....... ;)

[Hightime[_2_]]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2020 at 2:11:55 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> Guess he’s not very high time....... ;)

Okay I believe ! Its clear now

[BobWa43]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 11:33:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

The L33 owned by the NSA that I flew out of AirSailing had only a CG hook. It was always interesting keeping it on the narrow paved runway with a strong left crosswind. Some of them had only the CG hook.

[BobWa43]

On Saturday, March 14, 2020 at 11:33:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> In the W&W Claasifieds there is a L33 Solo listed for 13K Canadian, that about 9400 USD.
> I read Dick Johnsons flight report and he liked it, he was concerned that it had very little aerodynamic stall warning and would readily drop into a spin. He thought it best if low timers had real spin training before taking it out.
> He also measured the performance at 31/1
> For those who have owned these...
> Are they easy or difficult to rig?
> How have they held up?
> Can you leave them tied out for the season? [ There all metal except for the rudder which is fabric]
> Is the 31/ 1 LD sufficient for day in day out XC?
> Are they nice to thermal?
> Are they suitable for beginners with proper spin training?
> Do you guys give them the overall thumbs up or thumbs down?
> Thanks in advance!
> Looking for a 1st ship for my 14 yr old son.

As to your question about tying out, the Nevada Soaring Association has been tying it L33s out for the season for many years. It is not ideal for maintaining the glider in pris