ForeFlight collision avoidance system

[MNLou]

We have been having an interesting discussion about an apparently new functionality in ForeFlight that can display transponder equipped aircraft on a display (e.g. an Iphone) and, if the software detects the possibility of a mid-air collision, will turn aircraft symbols red and give an audio warning..

Would our on-line experts please weigh in on this technology and compare / contract its capabilities to Flarm?

Please - I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just trying to get information from those "in the know".

Thanks in advance!

Lou

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 8:37:54 PM UTC-4, MNLou wrote:
> We have been having an interesting discussion about an apparently new functionality in ForeFlight that can display transponder equipped aircraft on a display (e.g. an Iphone) and, if the software detects the possibility of a mid-air collision, will turn aircraft symbols red and give an audio warning.
>
> Would our on-line experts please weigh in on this technology and compare / contract its capabilities to Flarm?
>
> Please - I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just trying to get information from those "in the know".
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Lou

This is not new functionality. It has been available for years when coupled with ADSB in.

[[email protected]]

Yes its been there for years in foreflight, however, it does not replace flarm in thatvit doesnot use algorithms to inhibit alarms to traffic you are not going to hit. In other words all traffic within 200 feet altitude and 1 mile will be displayed as a "risk" even if you are flying in the same direction and at the same speed. Flarm uses the aforementioned algorithms to filter these target out and only "Alerts" you to ones you are on a collision course with. IE if your all behaving well in a thermal = no alerts where as foreflight with Stratus ADSB in would alert you to everyone in that thermal making it useless. Hope that helps!

CH

[[email protected]]

Makes it ok for cruising just turn off when thermalling in a crowd.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 03 Apr 2020 07:38:25 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> Makes it ok for cruising just turn off when thermalling in a crowd.

Two points to consider:

- how long does it take to come up again after its been turned off?

- FLARM will warn you about anybody playing silly buggers behind or under
you. This is particularly useful if you're flying something with poor
rear viz, such as an SZD Junior or 1st gen Discus. Anything you've
turned off won't.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[SoaringXCellence]

Martin,

The Foreflight display function is immediate as long as there is a valid input from an ADS-B input source. In our gliders the most common ADS_B input is coming from the FLARM, which does not interface with the Foreflight software, nor the iDevice wireless inputs (Bluetooth and WiFi).

So, unless you have a newer TPX with ADS-B in and wireless communication (Of which there are many now on the market), the Foreflight display TAWS function will not work.

In addition, while the Trig 21, or 22 is a great ADS-B out device, there is not, to my knowledge, any ADS-B in from that device. So again you'll need some other source to the Foreflight to get the TAWS display.

[kinsell]

On 4/3/20 11:40 AM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> Martin,
>
> The Foreflight display function is immediate as long as there is a valid input from an ADS-B input source. In our gliders the most common ADS_B input is coming from the FLARM, which does not interface with the Foreflight software, nor the iDevice wireless inputs (Bluetooth and WiFi).
>
> So, unless you have a newer TPX with ADS-B in and wireless communication (Of which there are many now on the market), the Foreflight display TAWS function will not work.
>
> In addition, while the Trig 21, or 22 is a great ADS-B out device, there is not, to my knowledge, any ADS-B in from that device. So again you'll need some other source to the Foreflight to get the TAWS display.
>

The original question was about transponder equipped targets. If the
target has only a transponder, then the best Foreflight could do is a
PCAS type of display (ring of fire), which has never been terribly
useful. I doubt if a Stratus 3 type of ads-b receiver even transmits
that info to a display.

-Dave

[David Shelton]

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 4/3/20 11:40 AM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > Martin,
> >
> > The Foreflight display function is immediate as long as there is a valid input from an ADS-B input source. In our gliders the most common ADS_B input is coming from the FLARM, which does not interface with the Foreflight software, nor the iDevice wireless inputs (Bluetooth and WiFi).
> >
> > So, unless you have a newer TPX with ADS-B in and wireless communication (Of which there are many now on the market), the Foreflight display TAWS function will not work.
> >
> > In addition, while the Trig 21, or 22 is a great ADS-B out device, there is not, to my knowledge, any ADS-B in from that device. So again you'll need some other source to the Foreflight to get the TAWS display.
> >
>
> The original question was about transponder equipped targets. If the
> target has only a transponder, then the best Foreflight could do is a
> PCAS type of display (ring of fire), which has never been terribly
> useful. I doubt if a Stratus 3 type of ads-b receiver even transmits
> that info to a display.
>
> -Dave

Yes, the newer Stratus has a dual-band receiver and is able to transmit ADS-B targets to your tablet.

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

If you have ADS-B OUT in your aircraft and you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, Foreflight with a Scout receiver will show you all transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC with the same location accuracy available to the ATC radar system. That is dramatically better than the “ring of Fire” you get with a PCAS or FLARM system.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 5:37:54 PM UTC-7, MNLou wrote:
> We have been having an interesting discussion about an apparently new functionality in ForeFlight that can display transponder equipped aircraft on a display (e.g. an Iphone) and, if the software detects the possibility of a mid-air collision, will turn aircraft symbols red and give an audio warning.
>
> Would our on-line experts please weigh in on this technology and compare / contract its capabilities to Flarm?
>
> Please - I'm not trying to start a war here. I'm just trying to get information from those "in the know".
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Lou

I too was confused and disappointed to find Flarm not being a total traffic display device.
I'm now flying a Phoenix motor glider from a very busy GA airport north of San Diego. I've been in the pattern with as many as 9 other planes listening from the tower for my turn to land. The surrounding background makes it very difficult to see the traffic with your eyes. I've added a Sentry ADS-B receiver that shows both 1070 and 978 ADS-B traffic on my Ipad running Fore flight software. Flarm to my knowledge doesn't show 978 traffic. That's why I added the mentioned items.
Flarm works the best if you are in a gaggle with other Flarm equipped aircraft. Most power pilots haven't heard of Flarm.
If you want to be seen by power traffic be sure to have ADS-B out. If you want to see power traffic get a dual-band ADS-B receiver with a matching display and software.
I think the best solution would be a Flarm type product that operates on one of the ADS-B frequencies that shows traffic on both ADS-B frequencies.
There are many videos showing Fore flight software and what traffic looks like on the display. Fore flight works on an i-phone also. It warns me of traffic many miles away with altitude, distance and heading direction. I'm glad I have it.

[[email protected]]

At seniors I got to try out both Flarm and ADSB in+out at the same time in a target rich environment.

It looks like the ADSB system includes an update delay which makes it less useful with manouvering gliders.

Given a choice between Flarm and ADSB, I think the best answer is yes, if you can stand the false alarm rate.

[kinsell]

On 4/3/20 10:25 PM, David Shelton wrote:
> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> On 4/3/20 11:40 AM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>>> Martin,
>>>
>>> The Foreflight display function is immediate as long as there is a valid input from an ADS-B input source. In our gliders the most common ADS_B input is coming from the FLARM, which does not interface with the Foreflight software, nor the iDevice wireless inputs (Bluetooth and WiFi).
>>>
>>> So, unless you have a newer TPX with ADS-B in and wireless communication (Of which there are many now on the market), the Foreflight display TAWS function will not work.
>>>
>>> In addition, while the Trig 21, or 22 is a great ADS-B out device, there is not, to my knowledge, any ADS-B in from that device. So again you'll need some other source to the Foreflight to get the TAWS display.
>>>
>>
>> The original question was about transponder equipped targets. If the
>> target has only a transponder, then the best Foreflight could do is a
>> PCAS type of display (ring of fire), which has never been terribly
>> useful. I doubt if a Stratus 3 type of ads-b receiver even transmits
>> that info to a display.
>>
>> -Dave
>
> Yes, the newer Stratus has a dual-band receiver and is able to transmit ADS-B targets to your tablet.
>

You're missing the point. Transponder equipped aircraft are not the
same as ADS-B out equipped aircraft. In most airspace, a transponder
only power plane can fly legally up to 10K MSL without ADS-B, like a
glider with transponder only can fly to 18K.

[kinsell]

On 4/3/20 11:33 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
> If you have ADS-B OUT in your aircraft and you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, Foreflight with a Scout receiver will show you all transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC with the same location accuracy available to the ATC radar system. That is dramatically better than the “ring of Fire” you get with a PCAS or FLARM system.
>

Once again, the original question was about transponder equipped
aircraft, which does not necessarily mean they're ADS-B out equipped.

ATC still uses radar to show transponder-only targets. These can't be
shown with accuracy on a Foreflight type of system with an ads-b receiver.


Flarm does show 978 mhz ADS-B targets with full position accuracy, like
it shows flarm targets.

[Bruce]

On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 7:03:37 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 4/3/20 11:33 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > If you have ADS-B OUT in your aircraft and you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, Foreflight with a Scout receiver will show you all transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC with the same location accuracy available to the ATC radar system. That is dramatically better than the “ring of Fire” you get with a PCAS or FLARM system.
> >
>
> Once again, the original question was about transponder equipped
> aircraft, which does not necessarily mean they're ADS-B out equipped.
>
> ATC still uses radar to show transponder-only targets. These can't be
> shown with accuracy on a Foreflight type of system with an ads-b receiver..
>
>
> Flarm does show 978 mhz ADS-B targets with full position accuracy, like
> it shows flarm targets.

I understand that Flarm show 1090 mhz ADS-B targets, If you know of a model that does 978 mhz, I'd like to learn of it.

1090 is the world standard for ADS-B 978 is a USA only patchwork to make ADS-B available at a cheaper price point.

[kinsell]

On 4/4/20 8:18 AM, Bruce wrote:
> On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 7:03:37 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> On 4/3/20 11:33 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
>>> If you have ADS-B OUT in your aircraft and you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, Foreflight with a Scout receiver will show you all transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC with the same location accuracy available to the ATC radar system. That is dramatically better than the “ring of Fire” you get with a PCAS or FLARM system.
>>>
>>
>> Once again, the original question was about transponder equipped
>> aircraft, which does not necessarily mean they're ADS-B out equipped.
>>
>> ATC still uses radar to show transponder-only targets. These can't be
>> shown with accuracy on a Foreflight type of system with an ads-b receiver.
>>
>>
>> Flarm does show 978 mhz ADS-B targets with full position accuracy, like
>> it shows flarm targets.
>
> I understand that Flarm show 1090 mhz ADS-B targets, If you know of a model that does 978 mhz, I'd like to learn of it.
>
> 1090 is the world standard for ADS-B 978 is a USA only patchwork to make ADS-B available at a cheaper price point.
>

There has been talk of someday getting PF enhanced to take advantage of
ADS-R, but I did mean to say 1090. Not enough coffee.

978 also was intended to reduce congestion on 1090, and it provides
real-time weather, and text products like PIREPS an NOTAMS, so there's
more to it than just cost reduction.