View Full Version : Most Competitive Club Class Ship
Hello Guys, with the present handicaps, whats the most competitive ship for Club class competition? Does the Cirrus still have the edge?
Dan
Tango Eight
April 3rd 20, 05:58 PM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 12:44:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hello Guys, with the present handicaps, whats the most competitive ship for Club class competition? Does the Cirrus still have the edge?
> Dan
Whatever ship Sarah decides to fly.
T8
Dan Daly[_2_]
April 3rd 20, 05:58 PM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 12:44:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hello Guys, with the present handicaps, whats the most competitive ship for Club class competition? Does the Cirrus still have the edge?
> Dan
Where do you fly? Different "most competitive" in different areas.
Dan, looking for the overall ship. I fly east coast so yeh the “floaters” are gonna have a slight edge. Same goes for “runners” in strong western conditions. Overall, it looks like the Cirrus does/scores pretty well in both situations.
Dan
Tony[_5_]
April 3rd 20, 06:52 PM
At the FAI level it seems like it used to be Cirrus or Libelle, but then they changed the handicap and now its ASW-20.
Using US handicaps it seems to be Discus 2 or LS-8. At least you have the option of being competitive in 2 classes that way ;)
I still like my Cirrus!
Thanks Tony, thats what I was looking for. I love the libelle but though there are some exceptional libelle drivers out there, it seems they just can’t get high up there with the tasking and the present assigned handicap. It looks like the asw20 is the way to go. I can’t afford the discus or the 8 lol. How does the asw19 stack up?
Dan
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 1:58:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Thanks Tony, thats what I was looking for. I love the libelle but though there are some exceptional libelle drivers out there, it seems they just can’t get high up there with the tasking and the present assigned handicap. It looks like the asw20 is the way to go. I can’t afford the discus or the 8 lol. How does the asw19 stack up?
> Dan
Mid range, like '19, LS-4, maybe Discus, is a good place to be. Lower performance ships have a slight following advantage, but not quite as much range..
Keep in mind that Std in the US has limited handicapping so something like an LS-4 or Discus, or ASW-24 can be competitive in Std, Club, and Sports. 3 classes with one ship.
FWIW
UH
Thanks UH, right now I am selling a couple of my restorations and looking to convert the cash into another bird I can do some racing with. I’m gonna keep going with the 1-26 scene, thats my first live, but I think its time to also jump into another class. We only have the one single 1-26 competition each year and the group of guys is slowly dwindling. Even though we do have some new folks jumping in and I am doing my best to ingender new life into the group, the writing is kinda on the wall for us as well as the entire soaring community (diminishing).
So that being said, I need to enjoy as much as I can while contest flying still exists. I would have loved to have seen the 13m take off, but since its not, at least here in the states, I guess Club class is the place to go since I can’t justify the hundreds of thousands it takes to play with the big boys.
Dan Daly[_2_]
April 3rd 20, 09:49 PM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 3:23:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 1:58:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Thanks Tony, thats what I was looking for. I love the libelle but though there are some exceptional libelle drivers out there, it seems they just can’t get high up there with the tasking and the present assigned handicap. It looks like the asw20 is the way to go. I can’t afford the discus or the 8 lol. How does the asw19 stack up?
> > Dan
>
> Mid range, like '19, LS-4, maybe Discus, is a good place to be. Lower performance ships have a slight following advantage, but not quite as much range.
> Keep in mind that Std in the US has limited handicapping so something like an LS-4 or Discus, or ASW-24 can be competitive in Std, Club, and Sports. 3 classes with one ship.
> FWIW
> UH
SZD-55 as well for the East.
Bob Youngblood
April 3rd 20, 09:55 PM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 12:44:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hello Guys, with the present handicaps, whats the most competitive ship for Club class competition? Does the Cirrus still have the edge?
> Dan
Dan, I would go with the ASW24
Bob, I think the 24 is beyond what I want to put out for now. In a few years when I retire, then thats a different matter.
Dan
Same goes for the szd55. I have however always liked the standard jantars. The early one flew ok when I had a chance to fly one but they say the 2 is much more nimble. However, I don’t often see any of either model jantar coming up for sale too often.
Dan
Bob Youngblood
April 3rd 20, 10:27 PM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 5:14:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Bob, I think the 24 is beyond what I want to put out for now. In a few years when I retire, then thats a different matter.
> Dan
You are probably right on the timeframe, I have flown the 24 a bit and it is really a nice flying glider, especially with the handicap. Bob
I've owned my ASW 24 for 28+ years and see no reason to change, especially since UH helped me refinish it a few years ago. As he noted, it's competitive in Std., Club and Sports. I've also flown 15 Meter Combined here in the East (handicapped), and 15M (again, back East there's not a lot of difference). I flew straight up against the Discus 2 and LS-8 for years and didn't see much if any difference so the fact that I get a small handicap now is great. Throw in Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit and the fact that the '24 wing is almost impervious to the slow curing and profile warping that can occur with other gliders and it's a winner. I'm biased, of course.
Two caveats:
1) though I can't speak from experience, I understand that the '24 must be "flown" a bit more than, say, a Discus or LS; and
2) you'll want to upgrade the winglets if it still has the factory tips. From experience, UH can help there, too, as he can if you find one that's been shot up by loud-talking, gun-toting aerial cowboys.
Chip Bearden
JB
LOL, gotta watch it with the aerial cowboy thing lol, cutting close to the bone there lol, but as to the 24, that is all spot on. That ship has stayed competitive from inception to today. Now if u could talk to Bob and get him to send another 10k up my way, I would pull the trigger on one lol.
Bob Youngblood
April 4th 20, 12:52 AM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 5:39:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I've owned my ASW 24 for 28+ years and see no reason to change, especially since UH helped me refinish it a few years ago. As he noted, it's competitive in Std., Club and Sports. I've also flown 15 Meter Combined here in the East (handicapped), and 15M (again, back East there's not a lot of difference). I flew straight up against the Discus 2 and LS-8 for years and didn't see much if any difference so the fact that I get a small handicap now is great. Throw in Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit and the fact that the '24 wing is almost impervious to the slow curing and profile warping that can occur with other gliders and it's a winner. I'm biased, of course.
>
> Two caveats:
>
> 1) though I can't speak from experience, I understand that the '24 must be "flown" a bit more than, say, a Discus or LS; and
>
> 2) you'll want to upgrade the winglets if it still has the factory tips. From experience, UH can help there, too, as he can if you find one that's been shot up by loud-talking, gun-toting aerial cowboys.
>
> Chip Bearden
> JB
Chip, I have the old P1 that Ray Galloway had, I have flown it against a few other sailplanes and without a doubt it performs very well. Some of the 15 meter gods with flaps would be shaking their heads looking at my rear side. Eileen flies it most of the time now and I fly something else, but it is without a doubt a great standard class ship that in the right hands can compete Bob
krasw
April 4th 20, 05:31 AM
On Friday, 3 April 2020 20:52:08 UTC+3, Tony wrote:
> At the FAI level it seems like it used to be Cirrus or Libelle, but then they changed the handicap and now its ASW-20.
>
If the question is: "what glider has way too low handicap for it's performance in current FAI list", the answer is LS7.
That we make these questions, and can answer them, tells a lot about quality of FAI handicaps.
John Foster
April 4th 20, 06:17 AM
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 10:31:31 PM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
> On Friday, 3 April 2020 20:52:08 UTC+3, Tony wrote:
> > At the FAI level it seems like it used to be Cirrus or Libelle, but then they changed the handicap and now its ASW-20.
> >
>
> If the question is: "what glider has way too low handicap for it's performance in current FAI list", the answer is LS7.
>
> That we make these questions, and can answer them, tells a lot about quality of FAI handicaps.
I think the Phoebus A would be in the running as well. The polar really drops off as it picks up speed, with a VNE of only 108 knots.
Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
April 4th 20, 03:02 PM
My Club class Standard Cirrus #187 has the factory wing incidence improvement and the airbrake panel mod. Low airframe time. Nice Eberle trailer. Hangared at Marfa, in southwest Texas. I've owned it since 1999, always hangared. Available for sale. Details by E-mail only to marfagliders At A0L dott c0m
Hi Burt I would love to have your Cirrus, I checked it out in as much detail as I could without visiting when you first put her on the market. But you’ve got her pretty highly priced, no offense intended at all. From what I see of her she is in immaculate condx. But at that asking price I think I could just get into a better performing machine design wise.
Dan
Papa3[_2_]
April 4th 20, 03:54 PM
I've flown with/against Chip the whole time he's owned that -24. Starting with an LS4 (a great climber), I still couldn't out climb him, but he did walk away on long runs especially at higher speeds. So I bought an LS8. Still couldn't out climb him (in 15M configuration), and it was really hard to tell any difference on the run. So I bought a -29. Except in the tightest and trickiest thermals, still no difference in climb (in 15M). Definitely better on the high speed runs, but not enough to be game changing. So I put on the 18M tips... :-)
On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 7:52:11 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 5:39:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I've owned my ASW 24 for 28+ years and see no reason to change, especially since UH helped me refinish it a few years ago. As he noted, it's competitive in Std., Club and Sports. I've also flown 15 Meter Combined here in the East (handicapped), and 15M (again, back East there's not a lot of difference). I flew straight up against the Discus 2 and LS-8 for years and didn't see much if any difference so the fact that I get a small handicap now is great. Throw in Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit and the fact that the '24 wing is almost impervious to the slow curing and profile warping that can occur with other gliders and it's a winner. I'm biased, of course.
> >
> > Two caveats:
> >
> > 1) though I can't speak from experience, I understand that the '24 must be "flown" a bit more than, say, a Discus or LS; and
> >
> > 2) you'll want to upgrade the winglets if it still has the factory tips.. From experience, UH can help there, too, as he can if you find one that's been shot up by loud-talking, gun-toting aerial cowboys.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > JB
>
> Chip, I have the old P1 that Ray Galloway had, I have flown it against a few other sailplanes and without a doubt it performs very well. Some of the 15 meter gods with flaps would be shaking their heads looking at my rear side. Eileen flies it most of the time now and I fly something else, but it is without a doubt a great standard class ship that in the right hands can compete Bob
Dan Marotta
April 4th 20, 04:54 PM
Maybe you should have bought a -24.* It would have saved a lot of money! :-D
On 4/4/2020 8:54 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> I've flown with/against Chip the whole time he's owned that -24. Starting with an LS4 (a great climber), I still couldn't out climb him, but he did walk away on long runs especially at higher speeds. So I bought an LS8. Still couldn't out climb him (in 15M configuration), and it was really hard to tell any difference on the run. So I bought a -29. Except in the tightest and trickiest thermals, still no difference in climb (in 15M). Definitely better on the high speed runs, but not enough to be game changing. So I put on the 18M tips... :-)
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 7:52:11 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
>> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 5:39:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>> I've owned my ASW 24 for 28+ years and see no reason to change, especially since UH helped me refinish it a few years ago. As he noted, it's competitive in Std., Club and Sports. I've also flown 15 Meter Combined here in the East (handicapped), and 15M (again, back East there's not a lot of difference). I flew straight up against the Discus 2 and LS-8 for years and didn't see much if any difference so the fact that I get a small handicap now is great. Throw in Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit and the fact that the '24 wing is almost impervious to the slow curing and profile warping that can occur with other gliders and it's a winner. I'm biased, of course.
>>>
>>> Two caveats:
>>>
>>> 1) though I can't speak from experience, I understand that the '24 must be "flown" a bit more than, say, a Discus or LS; and
>>>
>>> 2) you'll want to upgrade the winglets if it still has the factory tips. From experience, UH can help there, too, as he can if you find one that's been shot up by loud-talking, gun-toting aerial cowboys.
>>>
>>> Chip Bearden
>>> JB
>> Chip, I have the old P1 that Ray Galloway had, I have flown it against a few other sailplanes and without a doubt it performs very well. Some of the 15 meter gods with flaps would be shaking their heads looking at my rear side. Eileen flies it most of the time now and I fly something else, but it is without a doubt a great standard class ship that in the right hands can compete Bob
--
Dan, 5J
Jim Hogue
April 5th 20, 11:28 AM
Eric, this may also have something to do with that other feature Chip has that you don’t, which is that special “nut connected to the stick”. Haha, just sayin’....
Miss fly in’ with you all up there, cheers and best wishes from Alabama.
Jim J6
On Saturday, 4 April 2020 09:54:05 UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> I've flown with/against Chip the whole time he's owned that -24. Starting with an LS4 (a great climber), I still couldn't out climb him, but he did walk away on long runs especially at higher speeds. So I bought an LS8. Still couldn't out climb him (in 15M configuration), and it was really hard to tell any difference on the run. So I bought a -29. Except in the tightest and trickiest thermals, still no difference in climb (in 15M). Definitely better on the high speed runs, but not enough to be game changing. So I put on the 18M tips... :-)
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 7:52:11 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 5:39:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > I've owned my ASW 24 for 28+ years and see no reason to change, especially since UH helped me refinish it a few years ago. As he noted, it's competitive in Std., Club and Sports. I've also flown 15 Meter Combined here in the East (handicapped), and 15M (again, back East there's not a lot of difference). I flew straight up against the Discus 2 and LS-8 for years and didn't see much if any difference so the fact that I get a small handicap now is great. Throw in Gerhard Waibel's safety cockpit and the fact that the '24 wing is almost impervious to the slow curing and profile warping that can occur with other gliders and it's a winner. I'm biased, of course.
> > >
> > > Two caveats:
> > >
> > > 1) though I can't speak from experience, I understand that the '24 must be "flown" a bit more than, say, a Discus or LS; and
> > >
> > > 2) you'll want to upgrade the winglets if it still has the factory tips. From experience, UH can help there, too, as he can if you find one that's been shot up by loud-talking, gun-toting aerial cowboys.
> > >
> > > Chip Bearden
> > > JB
> >
> > Chip, I have the old P1 that Ray Galloway had, I have flown it against a few other sailplanes and without a doubt it performs very well. Some of the 15 meter gods with flaps would be shaking their heads looking at my rear side. Eileen flies it most of the time now and I fly something else, but it is without a doubt a great standard class ship that in the right hands can compete Bob
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