ASW-15 Impressions

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For the guys here who are familiar with 1970’s soaring, have any of you owned an asw-15 and what were your impressions of them?

I flew one once many many years ago but it was just an early morning 15 minute sleigh ride and I was a kid. I don’t know how I would fit now (6ft 1in, 190 lbs but not broad shouldered, just long legged).

Hows the weak wx performance? How would you compare against a 201 libelle in climb and run? How much advantage does the cirrus have over it in run when both are dry?
Thanks guys

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 05 Apr 2020 10:40:07 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> For the guys here who are familiar with 1970’s soaring, have any of you
> owned an asw-15 and what were your impressions of them?
>
First off, I've not owned one, have heard two maintenance points
discussed at Milfield, where there were two of them:

- before s/n 356 the wing, like early Libelles, has a glass/balsa/glass
wing skin. The main spar is a box with vertical grain balsa webs, but
the inside of the box is unpainted so, during annuals, its interior
must be inspected for mould

- the aileron pushrods run through nylon bearings which, if greased, can
get clogged with a dust/grease mixture which makes the ailerons stiff.
I'm told its a right ******* to remove without chopping holes in the
wing.

A Danish friend had an early ASW-15 and liked it, though its single tow
hook is offset from the center line and its position is a compromise
between winch and aero tow. The B series fixed that and can carry water.

If you know Karl Striedieck ask him about them: he once owned one and set
out and return distance records with it.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 2:42:05 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Apr 2020 10:40:07 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:
>
> > For the guys here who are familiar with 1970’s soaring, have any of you
> > owned an asw-15 and what were your impressions of them?
> >
> First off, I've not owned one, have heard two maintenance points
> discussed at Milfield, where there were two of them:
>
> - before s/n 356 the wing, like early Libelles, has a glass/balsa/glass
> wing skin. The main spar is a box with vertical grain balsa webs, but
> the inside of the box is unpainted so, during annuals, its interior
> must be inspected for mould
>
> - the aileron pushrods run through nylon bearings which, if greased, can
> get clogged with a dust/grease mixture which makes the ailerons stiff.
> I'm told its a right ******* to remove without chopping holes in the
> wing.
>
> A Danish friend had an early ASW-15 and liked it, though its single tow
> hook is offset from the center line and its position is a compromise
> between winch and aero tow. The B series fixed that and can carry water.
>
> If you know Karl Striedieck ask him about them: he once owned one and set
> out and return distance records with it.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

When I was starting flying in the 90's, a club-mate had an ASW-15; there was a tool making the rounds for cleaning the aileron runs of the dried grease. IIRC, you 'bought' it from the previous user, used it, and waited for the next fellow with the problem, and 'sold' it to him for the same price + shipping. Don't know if it is still in circulation. Nice glider. Offset CG hook (we winched) so it yawed at the start of the roll.

[[email protected]]

Thanks Martin. And Yes Dan I read on an early ras posting about that “reaming tool”. I am hoping I can also get some flight/performance impressions from some of the folks checking in here, specially guys with experience also flying the 201, and the cirrus.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 3:18:21 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 2:42:05 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Sun, 05 Apr 2020 10:40:07 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:
> >
> > > For the guys here who are familiar with 1970’s soaring, have any of you
> > > owned an asw-15 and what were your impressions of them?
> > >
> > First off, I've not owned one, have heard two maintenance points
> > discussed at Milfield, where there were two of them:
> >
> > - before s/n 356 the wing, like early Libelles, has a glass/balsa/glass
> > wing skin. The main spar is a box with vertical grain balsa webs, but
> > the inside of the box is unpainted so, during annuals, its interior
> > must be inspected for mould
> >
> > - the aileron pushrods run through nylon bearings which, if greased, can
> > get clogged with a dust/grease mixture which makes the ailerons stiff..
> > I'm told its a right ******* to remove without chopping holes in the
> > wing.
> >
> > A Danish friend had an early ASW-15 and liked it, though its single tow
> > hook is offset from the center line and its position is a compromise
> > between winch and aero tow. The B series fixed that and can carry water..
> >
> > If you know Karl Striedieck ask him about them: he once owned one and set
> > out and return distance records with it.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> When I was starting flying in the 90's, a club-mate had an ASW-15; there was a tool making the rounds for cleaning the aileron runs of the dried grease. IIRC, you 'bought' it from the previous user, used it, and waited for the next fellow with the problem, and 'sold' it to him for the same price + shipping. Don't know if it is still in circulation. Nice glider. Offset CG hook (we winched) so it yawed at the start of the roll.

And a quick search of the archive: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/ASW-15$20aileron$20tool%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/a84U42BifAQ/RNPME7d2y0MJ which describes the tool etc. Doug passed away of cancer.

[[email protected]]

Sorry to hear that Dan. I know we are delving into ancient history here, probably says something about us lol. But I still think of an asw-24 as a “new” bird lol.
Dan

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 05 Apr 2020 12:18:19 -0700, Dan Daly wrote:

> [ASW-15] Offset CG hook (we winched) so it yawed at the start of
> the roll.
>
The SZD Junior is also infamous for its offset CG hook, but we still
convert new solo pilots onto it on the winch. Its not too bad unless
there's a cross-wind from the right, in which case it *will* yaw a bit.

If you can successfully deal with winching a Junior in a right hand cross-
wind, you can probably handle crosswinds/offset hooks in any other
glider. At least the Junior has a central, nose mounted aerotow hook.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Chuck Zabinski]

20 years ago, I was in a ASW15B Co-op partnership. I only had about 140 hours of flying experience at that time. I learned a lot flying the ASW15B. It is easy to assemble, roomy (for me at 6'-200 lbs) and has no bad flight characteristics. No problems with the full flying horizontal stabilizer. I got about 115 hours in it, most of the flights about 2 houra. I did my Silver Altitude and Distance in it. I loved the way it thermaled in weak conditions. I tried to buy it from the partnership but could not come to terms. I wanted to do more cross country flying but was afraid of damaging the glider and inconveniencing my partners. Ended up getting a Hph 304CZ so I could do more cross-country.

Highly recommend the ASW15B as a first glass ship.

Chuck Zabinski

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 1:40:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> For the guys here who are familiar with 1970’s soaring, have any of you owned an asw-15 and what were your impressions of them?
>
> I flew one once many many years ago but it was just an early morning 15 minute sleigh ride and I was a kid. I don’t know how I would fit now (6ft 1in, 190 lbs but not broad shouldered, just long legged).
>
> Hows the weak wx performance? How would you compare against a 201 libelle in climb and run? How much advantage does the cirrus have over it in run when both are dry?
> Thanks guys

The '15 is an honest ship with Waibel handling and pretty much the same performance as the Std Cirrus. They have the same handicap.
You would fit in it fine.
If I was looking for a Club class ship, and not trying to be able to also fly Std, I would pick the Std Libelle.
Why?
Libelles have held up much better that 15's or Cirrus's. I own 2 and both still have nice finishes, even at their age. I doubt you will find a Cirrus or '15 that does not need finish work, unless it has already been refinished.
15 and Cirrus are a bit more rugged than the Libelle.
Cirrus is the only one with hinged canopy.
That said, the trailer could be the tie breaker.
FWIW
UH

[Roy B.]

Never owned one (did won a '17) but flew several different ones.
Pluses: Handles great, climbs well, limited water ballast capability ( "As" had bags put in by many owners - standard in the "B" model), holds value, assembles easy and the factory will still support it. Integral roll bar at rear of canopy frame. Well documented performance. Most of Part 2 of Reichman's book uses the '15 data.

Negatives: removable canopy (PITA), balsa core wing construction (susceptible to water damage), off-center CG hook (eliminated in "B" version) plus tail skid can lead to trouble on take off (groundloop).

There is an old AD for wing spar internal inspection on these and similar vintage Schleichers - probably complied with.
Good luck.
ROY

[[email protected]]

Thanks guys n thanks Roy. I enjoyed Reichmans book and did remember his use of the 15 as a standard for illustrating his points, thats part of my interest in the bird, all the numbers have been worked out lol.

Question: libelle vs 15, does either have a climb advantage? And in the run how does the 15 compare to the libelle below 70 and above 70k , anyone have knowledge? I can compare polars but thats not always real life.
Dan

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 05 Apr 2020 15:01:24 -0700, uneekcowgirl wrote:

> Question: libelle vs 15, does either have a climb advantage?
>
Pass - I've never flown my 201 with an ASW-15.

> And in the
> run how does the 15 compare to the libelle below 70 and above 70k ,
> anyone have knowledge? I can compare polars but thats not always real
> life.
> Dan

My (early, balsa winged) 201 is happy and not obviously throwing height
away at 80 kts indicated, but its wings have full-span under surface
zigzag turbulator strip fitted and that's supposed to improve high speed
cruise performance. It was on the glider when I got her, so I have no
unturbulated experience to compare it with.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Michael Opitz]

At 22:01 05 April 2020, wrote:
>Thanks guys n thanks Roy. I enjoyed Reichmans book and did
remember his use
>of the 15 as a standard for illustrating his points, thats part of my
>interest in the bird, all the numbers have been worked out lol.
>
>Question: libelle vs 15, does either have a climb advantage? And in
the run
>how does the 15 compare to the libelle below 70 and above 70k ,
anyone have
>knowledge? I can compare polars but thats not always real life.
>Dan
>

I had the chance to fly a couple of ASW-15's back in the 1970's.
Eric Mozer generously allowed me to fly his 7T for a year and
a half when I was in AZ going through USAF pilot training and
A-7D schools. I have nothing but good memories about the
handling characteristics, though I did not get to race one against
other contemporary gliders.

One thing which has so far escaped this thread is that the -15 has
top and bottom dive brakes, so it definitely has an advantage in
a short field landing situation compared to a STD Cirrus (at least
one before the 2 stage dive brake mod) and maybe even the
H 201 Libelle. If you are out West with big fields and mostly clear
approaches, it may not matter. In the North-East USA where we
have smaller fields with sometimes high trees blocking the
approaches, it might become a determining factor in the choice.

I think that condition and trailer will wind up being the main driving
factors if you are considering a glider from that generation.

Good luck...

RO

[[email protected]]

I had an ASW-15b for a few years when I was younger. Here are some things that I remember:

1) It rigged very easily. My trailer wasn't great, but the glider was still a joy to put together.

2) Pitch forces are light because of the all-flying tail, but you get used to it.

3) It seemed to do well in weak conditions.

I don't think you can really go wrong with a Cirrus, Libelle, or ASW-15. Pick the Libelle if you really love how it looks. Avoid the Libelle if you have wide shoulders. Other than that, I'd recommend looking at all three and picking the one with the best trailer, gel coat, and instruments.

[[email protected]]

Hi,

the 15 does well in weak conditions. In a faster glide, the Standard Cirrus is slightly better. ASW19 and LS1-f are significantly better at 150kph and above. The 15 easier gets damaged at outlandings due to the low elevator and the airbrakes below the wings.

If you have the choice, go for a B. It has a larger rudder, simplifying aerotows on the CG hook, also improving the agility and control balance. The B has a larger main wheel and a higher MTOW. Many 15s have a rather low payload below 90kg.

Christoph

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I have a 15 (s/n 15151) and a Pegasus with very little time in the Peg and 300 hours or so in the 15. I'm not into racing so can't really comment on how it compares to other gliders of that vintage performance-wise. I know at one time both it and the Cirrus had a 1.0 handicap.

It is very easy to rig. It has manual connections. If equipped with safety sleeves, they are simple to hook up and easy to test. Using safety pins was a bit harder. The all flying tail is a non-issue.The top and bottom air brakes are very effective. Some have an off-center CG release that can, apparently, be an issue in cross wind take-offs. Mine has what some call a "chin" release so no problems there.

There is an AD concerning fungus on the balsa that, once completed, requires only a visual check at each annual. I can't imagine that there any that still have not had the initial AD completed. Other than the original glider that crashed that created the need for the AD, I've never heard of any other 15 having the problem. I'm not saying its never happened, just that I'm unaware of it.

I bought the Pegasus because I wanted to step up in performance. It is also a great glider and is certainly in a different class than the 15. I intended to sell my 15 but could find no takers, presumably due to its low max pilot weight (185 lbs). (I'm also 6'1" and, with the seat back removed and a chute on, my head is probably about an inch from the canopy.) As I can't afford two gliders, the Peg is back on the market. Its on W&W for anyone interested.

In my biased opinion, the ASW 15 is a great glider for the price. Easy to fly and rig. Excellent handling.