View Full Version : Seminole-Lake Accident
Rich Owen[_2_]
April 8th 20, 02:35 AM
Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident.. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
Sincerely,
Rich Owen
Paul Agnew
April 8th 20, 04:13 AM
Condolences to all.
Paul A.
Heinz Gehlhaar
April 8th 20, 07:28 AM
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:35:22 PM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
My heart goes out to the Family and to the Glider Port Folks.
Just make sure that the Flight Computers (Oudi & Nano) really get read out by the powers to be. The local Sheriff and apparently the FAA do not know about igc-files.
I was involved in a glider retrieval wihich turned into an attempted accident retrieval around Ephrata, WA. When I got to the site, the Sheriff already there, and totally prevented access; even visual, as the glider was behind a slight rise in the country. I offered the Sheriff help in readout of the flight computer, but even that was refused. I left my name just in case, but was never contacted again. And the subsequent accident report years later looked like they had never seen the flight trace. Interestingly, since I had access to one of the flight-recorders on board, I saw that the wreck was moved a couple of days later.
Damn.
Let me add that NTSB/FAA are so clueless that I have seen multiple accident reports wherein a PTT was incorrectly described as "...the towplane released the glider...".
Sad to hear. One would think a Std Cirrus with 500 feet of altitude over the end of the runway would be easily landable. Lots of potential reasons, rope break, glider pilot released, tow pilot released, release malfunction, glider pilot incapacitation. NTSB and FAA investigations in situations like this are difficult to get exactly right.
Walt Connelly
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
April 8th 20, 03:52 PM
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:31:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Damn.
>
> Let me add that NTSB/FAA are so clueless that I have seen multiple accident reports wherein a PTT was incorrectly described as "...the towplane released the glider...".
Condolences to all.
Last summer after the Nephi Fatal accident three pilots at the contest spent the next afternoon with the NTSB investigators. They retrieved the PowerFlarm with the help of one of the pilots. They asked me to download the flight. We went thru the entire flight with the investigators with SeeYou PC.. They were interested in help and asked many questions about the flight and gliders. They also purchased SeeYou PC from me so they could look at the flight further. These inspectors were not clueless! They were very informed and professional. They were also interested in our opinions about what happened. R Owens call if you want the investigator's name and details.
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
George Haeh
April 8th 20, 04:00 PM
The Oudie IGC file can be really useful. In the case of my incident, the Oudie was recording at one second intervals. There may be additional data if the Oudie was connected to a vario.
The Oudie people can be really helpful with analysis of accident IGC files. There's an internal buffer that can be read to extract the last moments of the flight if the IGC file was not completed.
Bob Youngblood
April 8th 20, 04:15 PM
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 9:35:22 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
Sad to hear, I hope that this Std Cirrus was not assembled just before takeoff. Bob
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 11:28:24 PM UTC-7, Heinz Gehlhaar wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:35:22 PM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
> > Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Rich Owen
>
> My heart goes out to the Family and to the Glider Port Folks.
> Just make sure that the Flight Computers (Oudi & Nano) really get read out by the powers to be. The local Sheriff and apparently the FAA do not know about igc-files.
> I was involved in a glider retrieval wihich turned into an attempted accident retrieval around Ephrata, WA. When I got to the site, the Sheriff already there, and totally prevented access; even visual, as the glider was behind a slight rise in the country. I offered the Sheriff help in readout of the flight computer, but even that was refused. I left my name just in case, but was never contacted again. And the subsequent accident report years later looked like they had never seen the flight trace. Interestingly, since I had access to one of the flight-recorders on board, I saw that the wreck was moved a couple of days later.
Heinz is mistaken. I personally assisted the NTSB in locating the FLARM and the GPS-NAV onboard that accident. The NTSB included the IGC file and the analysis of the flight in their final report and that information is located here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=61854&CFID=7532&CFTOKEN=bebf8c47d0f3bd89-87C8EBEA-5056-942C-926319AEB9E07248
I'll push back on the blanket condemnation of the FAA/NTSB. I should wait for someone with more specific knowledge to comment but my understanding is that they were quite conscientious and helpful in a recent accident investigation in our area.
My experience with the Feds has been mixed. Some are sharp, knowledgeable, open minded, and want to help. Others are self-important, insecure, blustering bureaucrats who jump to conclusions. It's a wide spectrum, sort of like with glider pilots, as we've seen on this forum from time to time.
Nothing is ever all good or bad. I suspect, as in most areas of our lives, how we behave and interact with the Feds has something to do with how they treat us. And that, in turn, probably has some impact on how they treat the next glider pilot they encounter.
Chip Bearden
ASW 24
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 11:30:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'll push back on the blanket condemnation of the FAA/NTSB. I should wait for someone with more specific knowledge to comment but my understanding is that they were quite conscientious and helpful in a recent accident investigation in our area.
>
> My experience with the Feds has been mixed. Some are sharp, knowledgeable, open minded, and want to help. Others are self-important, insecure, blustering bureaucrats who jump to conclusions. It's a wide spectrum, sort of like with glider pilots, as we've seen on this forum from time to time.
>
> Nothing is ever all good or bad. I suspect, as in most areas of our lives, how we behave and interact with the Feds has something to do with how they treat us. And that, in turn, probably has some impact on how they treat the next glider pilot they encounter.
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24
Well said, Chip. And I'm very sorry to hear a fellow glider pilot is no longer with us. Condolences to their friends and family.
Mike Brooks
XL5
Hal[_3_]
April 8th 20, 07:26 PM
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 9:35:22 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
So sorry to hear this Rich! I have always been impressed with the safety culture at Seminole-Lake so this is a shock. My sympathies to all! Hal
Heinz Gehlhaar
April 8th 20, 08:01 PM
I was informed that I was wrong regarding the IGC file on that accident. Apparently I did not see the final NTSB report and the attached IGC file. I will look at the files which are located here:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=61854&CFID=7532&CFTOKEN=bebf8c47d0f3bd89-87C8EBEA-5056-942C-926319AEB9E07248.
Sorry about raising the issue.
Papa3[_2_]
April 8th 20, 08:38 PM
Sadly, I've got a box of shattered electronics sitting next to my office chair that came from the fatal accident of a good friend. After a lot of very dedicated and diligent work by the Pennsylvania State Police, FAA, and then the NTSB including the NTSB Electronics lab, they were able to recover the last few minutes of the flight from a badly fragged FLARM. Every one of the guys I dealt with was professional, caring, and interested in finding solutions.
That's not to say it was straightforward. They went down a few rabbit holes due to "procedures" that were frustrating at times. I had to invest some personal time to gain the confidence of the NTSB guy, but once that happened, they made me a formal party to the investigation and gave me full access to their information and findings. I think a lot of it depends on the usual relationship building skills. If you go in thinking they are a bunch of government hacks you'll probably find government hacks. If you approach them as professionals and show that you are willing and able to help, they are good guys.
Been my experience with most of the FAA guys I've dealt with over 30 years as well. Not perfect by any means, but decent enough guys if you come at them the right way.
Erik Mann
P3
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:30:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I'll push back on the blanket condemnation of the FAA/NTSB. I should wait for someone with more specific knowledge to comment but my understanding is that they were quite conscientious and helpful in a recent accident investigation in our area.
>
> My experience with the Feds has been mixed. Some are sharp, knowledgeable, open minded, and want to help. Others are self-important, insecure, blustering bureaucrats who jump to conclusions. It's a wide spectrum, sort of like with glider pilots, as we've seen on this forum from time to time.
>
> Nothing is ever all good or bad. I suspect, as in most areas of our lives, how we behave and interact with the Feds has something to do with how they treat us. And that, in turn, probably has some impact on how they treat the next glider pilot they encounter.
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24
WaltWX[_2_]
April 8th 20, 09:35 PM
It's sad... my Condolences to all..
Believe I sold my SN10B to the pilot in late November 2019. He/she was interested and enthusiastic about cross country and later, contest flying after coming from the hang gliding world. The Standard Cirrus was his "starter ship". We chatted about getting started with gliders.
Walt Rogers WX
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 9:35:22 PM UTC-4, Rich Owen wrote:
> Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
Very Sad .. Tnank You ZO
OO
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 11:28:24 PM UTC-7, Heinz Gehlhaar wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:35:22 PM UTC-7, Rich Owen wrote:
> > Seminole-Lake Gliderport sadly announces we had a fatal glider accident today. The accident will be investigated by the FAA and NTSB, an inspector was on the scene today. We do not want to identify the pilot but he was flying a Standard Cirrus that he owned. He was NOT in the Senior Soaring Championship. The accident occurred after a premature release by the pilot from tow at about 500 feet over the end of the runway. We recovered an Oudie and Nano (this unit was still operational) at the site and we expect it will greatly aid in the investigation. We ask you not call the office or come to the gliderport to view the scene. Seminole-Lake has been in the business of promoting soaring for over 50 years and this is our first fatal accident. Our prayers go out to the pilot's family.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Rich Owen
>
> My heart goes out to the Family and to the Glider Port Folks.
> Just make sure that the Flight Computers (Oudi & Nano) really get read out by the powers to be. The local Sheriff and apparently the FAA do not know about igc-files.
> I was involved in a glider retrieval wihich turned into an attempted accident retrieval around Ephrata, WA. When I got to the site, the Sheriff already there, and totally prevented access; even visual, as the glider was behind a slight rise in the country. I offered the Sheriff help in readout of the flight computer, but even that was refused. I left my name just in case, but was never contacted again. And the subsequent accident report years later looked like they had never seen the flight trace. Interestingly, since I had access to one of the flight-recorders on board, I saw that the wreck was moved a couple of days later.
You should have found out who at the NTSB was assigned the investigation and contact him/her directly. This is the accident you are probably referring to:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/05/schleicher-asw-28-18e-n63kr-fatal.html
The report includes this:
"The glider was equipped with a PowerFLARM portable GPS device/transponder, which documented its flight track, speed, and altitude. Data retrieved from the device showed a flight track that began northwest of EPH about 1436. "
It has been my experience that the NTSB tries to get data out of any recording device on the accident aircraft, and any recordings to the accident itself.
Tom
Rich Owen[_2_]
April 9th 20, 01:16 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I would like to say the FAA inspector and the two NTSB investigators are all top notch professionals. They have sought out our help in getting the flight logs downloaded. You all voiced good ideas on how to approach this investigation born out of how you handled other accidents. In specking with the NTSB investigators I have passed on some of these points.
Just to pass on some facts we know right now. None of this is an opinion. The Cirrus was stored in a hangar after it flew in the Senior Soaring Championship with a Romanian pilot flying the ship. It was not disassembled from that time until it flew yesterday. The mishap pilot was an experienced hang glider pilot, SEL private pilot and had received his private glider add-on rating at Seminole-Lake in November. The pilot purchased the glider in the same month with the goal of being a XC pilot and eventually entering contests. He was enthusiastic, asked tons of questions, and was very open to suggestions on how to be a better glider pilot. He was very much part of the Seminole-Lake family. I hope when the flight log is reviewed, and when the NTSB issues it's interim report, we will find out how this happened. In deference to his family, we will try not put out anything other than fact. Please honor this pilot by not floating theories not born out by the facts. Thank you.
His services will be a private affair due to Covid-19. I will pass on all your wishes to the family from this thread. As soon as the family approves, we will release the pilot's name. On a brighter note, Greg Shugg's phone, text, and email service blew up this morning wondering if he was the mishap pilot. That is why we purposely said the pilot did not fly in the Seniors. Greg was appreciative with the amount of care for his safety that he received.
Sincerely,
Rich Owen
ZO
Ernst
April 9th 20, 03:06 AM
Hello Rich, Seminole Lake Team, and everyone.
This is so sad.
I commend your forthcoming communication.
Just be aware, with the information provided, it took me 5 minutes to identify the accident glider and pilot.
Take care,
Ernst
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