Soaring Contest and Coronavirus

[Boise Pilot]

Question: The Seniors contest was held in FL a few weeks ago employing rules to reduce group gatherings and attempts to maintain social distancing. Just for informational purposes, has there been any reports of any of the contestants, crews, organizational people, volunteers, etc., being tested positive or having any health issues associated with the corona virus during of after the contest?
Boise Pilot

[Tony[_5_]]

Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.

From my understanding this case finally turned out to be positive, please correct me if I am wrong. The test has a 50% capacity of being wrong positive and negative.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Bob Youngblood wrote on 4/17/2020 3:22 PM:
> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
>> Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.
>
> From my understanding this case finally turned out to be positive, please correct me if I am wrong. The test has a 50% capacity of being wrong positive and negative.
>
A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[[email protected]]

> >
> A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.
>
Right, and one that is 90% wrong for a yes/no question is highly valued.

[Shaun Wheeler]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 5:44:58 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Bob Youngblood wrote on 4/17/2020 3:22 PM:
> > On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> >> Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.
> >
> > From my understanding this case finally turned out to be positive, please correct me if I am wrong. The test has a 50% capacity of being wrong positive and negative.
> >
> A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.
>
> --


Tea leaves would work.

They sued Sister Cleo for having a batting average less than that and put her out of business.

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

> A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.
>

Not true actually, a test with a 50% chance of being wrong can be quite useful.

Suppose 2% of the population has the disease. Take a test that has 100% chance of positive if you do have it, and 50% chance of positive if you don't have it. It tells the 2 people who do have it they have it, and it tells one other healthy person he has it too. Three people stay home, 97 go soaring in perfect safety.

Take a test that has 100% chance of negative if you don't have it, but 50% chance of positive if you do have it. 98 people are correctly cleared, 1 person is incorrectly cleared, 1 stays home. Well, we got half the sick people out of the population and reduced the reproduction rate by half.

John Cochrane.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Cochrane wrote on 4/17/2020 8:22 PM:
>
>> A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.
>>
>
> Not true actually, a test with a 50% chance of being wrong can be quite useful.
>
> Suppose 2% of the population has the disease. Take a test that has 100% chance of positive if you do have it, and 50% chance of positive if you don't have it. It tells the 2 people who do have it they have it, and it tells one other healthy person he has it too. Three people stay home, 97 go soaring in perfect safety.
>
> Take a test that has 100% chance of negative if you don't have it, but 50% chance of positive if you do have it. 98 people are correctly cleared, 1 person is incorrectly cleared, 1 stays home. Well, we got half the sick people out of the population and reduced the reproduction rate by half.
>
> John Cochrane.

Bob's description of the test seem to indicate it was wrong 50% of the time for
positive people, and wrong 50% of the time for negative people, so your results
would always be 50% positive, regardless of the actual percentage of positive people.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[2G]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 11:06:57 AM UTC-7, Boise Pilot wrote:
> Question: The Seniors contest was held in FL a few weeks ago employing rules to reduce group gatherings and attempts to maintain social distancing. Just for informational purposes, has there been any reports of any of the contestants, crews, organizational people, volunteers, etc., being tested positive or having any health issues associated with the corona virus during of after the contest?
> Boise Pilot

A more relevant question is would they have held the contest knowing what we know now? My guess is no.

Tom

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 12:07:59 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 11:06:57 AM UTC-7, Boise Pilot wrote:
> > Question: The Seniors contest was held in FL a few weeks ago employing rules to reduce group gatherings and attempts to maintain social distancing.. Just for informational purposes, has there been any reports of any of the contestants, crews, organizational people, volunteers, etc., being tested positive or having any health issues associated with the corona virus during of after the contest?
> > Boise Pilot
>
> A more relevant question is would they have held the contest knowing what we know now? My guess is no.
>
> Tom

Good question, I certainly think that Rich would have been the first one to pull the trigger and say Safety and protection of each other comes first. Organizers at other events have since halted contest or limited participation. Limiting may be the future of things to come.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 6:22:27 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> > Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.
>
> From my understanding this case finally turned out to be positive, please correct me if I am wrong. The test has a 50% capacity of being wrong positive and negative.

I just spoke with someone who stated that his test was still negative.

[[email protected]]

>A more relevant question is would they have held the contest knowing what we know now?

Probably not, but I think I'm glad we did.

The odds seem high that CV was there somewhere, but somehow a group of prime candidates dodged the bullet. There ought to be a lesson there. It might be that just staying home is not the only way forward given the right precautions. Not sure what precautions or to apply it to the general public.

I have not seen any signs of folks around here being generally as cautions when they are out as the folks at seniors. Given that, staying home is wise, but there is hope that might be another way to accomplish the same thing..

[[email protected]]

Tom,

When the snowbirds started arriving in November, and the contestants were rolling in after January 1st, Seminole-Lake Gliderport could have never foreseen the challenges we would face. The news in late January and early February regarding the new virus in China seemed not so bad. The closer we got to the contest, the worse it became. In Florida, we had very few cases and they were mainly in the southern section of the state. Here is a timeline I pulled from the New York Times written by Derrick Taylor:
• Dec 31, 2019 – The government in Wuhan, China confirmed that they were treating dozens of cases of pneumonia of unknown cause
• January 11, 2020 – First reported death from an illness caused by the virus. This man was 61 years old with a history of abdominal tumors and chronic liver disease
• January 20 – First confirmed case outside Chine appeared in Japan, South Korea, and Thailand. The next day a cause was discovered in Washington State.
• January 23 – China cut off Wuhan from travel to other parts of China. Travel to other countries was not halted (last sentence came from Fox News)
• January 30 – W.H.O. declared a global health emergency
• January 31 – Trump restricted travel from China
• February 2 – First Coronavirus death outside China was in the Philippines
• February 5 – Diamond Princess cruise ship quarantined in Yokohama, Japan. By Feb. 13th, 218 passengers were infected with Coronavirus.
• February 14 – First Coronavirus death in Europe occurred in France
• February 23 – Italy sees a major surge in Coronavirus cases
• February 29 – US records its first Coronavirus death in Seattle. Trump issues do not travel order for areas in Italy, Iran and South Korea
• March 3 – CDC lifted all testing restrictions on testing for Coronavirus
• March 13 – Trump declares a national emergency (Seniors Practice Day)
• March 15 – CDC advises no gatherings of 50 people or more for the next eight weeks. Florida Governor on this day recommended a limit of gatherings to 10 people.
In the news, we had several of the doctors tell us things were not that bad.. They said the Coronavirus was similar to the flu. This was based on data from China and no one really knew how bad this virus was going to get. Nancy Pelosi on February 24 made a big deal about coming to Chinatown in San Francisco. On February 29th, Dr Fauci was telling people that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large. At the end of this statement he also said things could change and we would have to seriously address the virus. This was the first time we felt we needed to address this issue. On March 8th, Governor Cuomo says New Yorkers should not panic over the virus. At this point NY only had 89 cases. This was 5 days before the beginning of the contest. So, New York, the largest and most severe of the states that were hit in the US, was advising their residents that there was not a reason to quarantine or shut down transportation, shops, or restaurants.
The first week of March we still did not have a single case within 100 miles of the gliderport. Seminole-Lake is located in a rural area, but within 14 miles of Disney World and all the visitors that the attraction brought to Central Florida.
At the Seniors, we had already made the decision the beginning of March to make adjustments on how we served the dinners in the hangar. Tables and chairs were disinfected before and after dinners. Servers had to wear gloves, utensils were handed to you with a plate and napkin by a volunteer in gloves. Even ice tea was handed to you so you wouldn’t come in contact with another glass. However, we still sat 8 to a table. Then on March 12th (day before the practice day), a meeting was held with both Contest Managers, the Contest Director, Scorer and the Seminole-Lake Manager. We decided to cancel all pilots’ meetings, mandatory safety meeting, and require social distancing if we needed a front of the grid meeting. We established electronic means to disseminate all information normally covered by these meetings. Paper task sheets were still passed out by the Scorer on the grid, but he was wearing gloves. We also restricted access to the office to keep our staff separated from the contestants. Several contestants that had conditions that put them at greater risk from the virus withdrew from the Seniors. On March 15th when the federal and Florida state governments recommended limits on the numbers of people that should gather together, the contest staff made the decision to continue. Competitors were asked on that evening if they still wanted to do dinners together in the hangar, they said yes. We did offer them a “to go” option by boxing up the dinner so they could eat in their RV. The Seniors ended on March 20. The awards banquet normally held at a golf resort was changed to a hangar event to limit contact with people outside our group. Two weeks later everyone contacted us to see if anyone was sick. Of all of our contestants, crews, staff and volunteers, we only had one pilot who took ill. He traveled to a couple of locations after the contest, including southeast Florida. He fell ill on the return trip to his home out west. At the two week point he was ill but tested negative for the virus. This pilot started to feel better and then got worse. He then tested positive. However, his wife did not get the virus. Today, everyone is fine.
So, you can always Monday morning quarterback any decision. However, given what we knew at the time, decisions were made to safeguard everyone anyway.. We did not treat this evolving threat lightly even though New Yorkers were told they didn’t have to change their habits just 5 days before the contest. If the Seniors were scheduled one week later, I’m sure we would have cancelled. Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily..
Sincerely,
Rich Owen
Co-Contest Manager
Senior Soaring Championship

[Bob Youngblood]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 2:01:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Tom,
>
> When the snowbirds started arriving in November, and the contestants were rolling in after January 1st, Seminole-Lake Gliderport could have never foreseen the challenges we would face. The news in late January and early February regarding the new virus in China seemed not so bad. The closer we got to the contest, the worse it became. In Florida, we had very few cases and they were mainly in the southern section of the state. Here is a timeline I pulled from the New York Times written by Derrick Taylor:
> • Dec 31, 2019 – The government in Wuhan, China confirmed that they were treating dozens of cases of pneumonia of unknown cause
> • January 11, 2020 – First reported death from an illness caused by the virus. This man was 61 years old with a history of abdominal tumors and chronic liver disease
> • January 20 – First confirmed case outside Chine appeared in Japan, South Korea, and Thailand. The next day a cause was discovered in Washington State.
> • January 23 – China cut off Wuhan from travel to other parts of China. Travel to other countries was not halted (last sentence came from Fox News)
> • January 30 – W.H.O. declared a global health emergency
> • January 31 – Trump restricted travel from China
> • February 2 – First Coronavirus death outside China was in the Philippines
> • February 5 – Diamond Princess cruise ship quarantined in Yokohama, Japan. By Feb. 13th, 218 passengers were infected with Coronavirus.
> • February 14 – First Coronavirus death in Europe occurred in France
> • February 23 – Italy sees a major surge in Coronavirus cases
> • February 29 – US records its first Coronavirus death in Seattle. Trump issues do not travel order for areas in Italy, Iran and South Korea
> • March 3 – CDC lifted all testing restrictions on testing for Coronavirus
> • March 13 – Trump declares a national emergency (Seniors Practice Day)
> • March 15 – CDC advises no gatherings of 50 people or more for the next eight weeks. Florida Governor on this day recommended a limit of gatherings to 10 people.
> In the news, we had several of the doctors tell us things were not that bad. They said the Coronavirus was similar to the flu. This was based on data from China and no one really knew how bad this virus was going to get. Nancy Pelosi on February 24 made a big deal about coming to Chinatown in San Francisco. On February 29th, Dr Fauci was telling people that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large. At the end of this statement he also said things could change and we would have to seriously address the virus. This was the first time we felt we needed to address this issue. On March 8th, Governor Cuomo says New Yorkers should not panic over the virus. At this point NY only had 89 cases. This was 5 days before the beginning of the contest. So, New York, the largest and most severe of the states that were hit in the US, was advising their residents that there was not a reason to quarantine or shut down transportation, shops, or restaurants.
> The first week of March we still did not have a single case within 100 miles of the gliderport. Seminole-Lake is located in a rural area, but within 14 miles of Disney World and all the visitors that the attraction brought to Central Florida.
> At the Seniors, we had already made the decision the beginning of March to make adjustments on how we served the dinners in the hangar. Tables and chairs were disinfected before and after dinners. Servers had to wear gloves, utensils were handed to you with a plate and napkin by a volunteer in gloves. Even ice tea was handed to you so you wouldn’t come in contact with another glass. However, we still sat 8 to a table. Then on March 12th (day before the practice day), a meeting was held with both Contest Managers, the Contest Director, Scorer and the Seminole-Lake Manager. We decided to cancel all pilots’ meetings, mandatory safety meeting, and require social distancing if we needed a front of the grid meeting. We established electronic means to disseminate all information normally covered by these meetings. Paper task sheets were still passed out by the Scorer on the grid, but he was wearing gloves. We also restricted access to the office to keep our staff separated from the contestants. Several contestants that had conditions that put them at greater risk from the virus withdrew from the Seniors. On March 15th when the federal and Florida state governments recommended limits on the numbers of people that should gather together, the contest staff made the decision to continue. Competitors were asked on that evening if they still wanted to do dinners together in the hangar, they said yes. We did offer them a “to go” option by boxing up the dinner so they could eat in their RV. The Seniors ended on March 20. The awards banquet normally held at a golf resort was changed to a hangar event to limit contact with people outside our group. Two weeks later everyone contacted us to see if anyone was sick. Of all of our contestants, crews, staff and volunteers, we only had one pilot who took ill. He traveled to a couple of locations after the contest, including southeast Florida. He fell ill on the return trip to his home out west. At the two week point he was ill but tested negative for the virus. This pilot started to feel better and then got worse. He then tested positive. However, his wife did not get the virus. Today, everyone is fine.
> So, you can always Monday morning quarterback any decision. However, given what we knew at the time, decisions were made to safeguard everyone anyway. We did not treat this evolving threat lightly even though New Yorkers were told they didn’t have to change their habits just 5 days before the contest. If the Seniors were scheduled one week later, I’m sure we would have cancelled. Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
> Co-Contest Manager
> Senior Soaring Championship

Well documented response Rich, very accurate description of the timeline. What else could anyone do, NOTHING! Bob

[Boise Pilot]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 12:46:18 PM UTC-6, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 2:01:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > When the snowbirds started arriving in November, and the contestants were rolling in after January 1st, Seminole-Lake Gliderport could have never foreseen the challenges we would face. The news in late January and early February regarding the new virus in China seemed not so bad. The closer we got to the contest, the worse it became. In Florida, we had very few cases and they were mainly in the southern section of the state. Here is a timeline I pulled from the New York Times written by Derrick Taylor:
> > • Dec 31, 2019 – The government in Wuhan, China confirmed that they were treating dozens of cases of pneumonia of unknown cause
> > • January 11, 2020 – First reported death from an illness caused by the virus. This man was 61 years old with a history of abdominal tumors and chronic liver disease
> > • January 20 – First confirmed case outside Chine appeared in Japan, South Korea, and Thailand. The next day a cause was discovered in Washington State.
> > • January 23 – China cut off Wuhan from travel to other parts of China. Travel to other countries was not halted (last sentence came from Fox News)
> > • January 30 – W.H.O. declared a global health emergency
> > • January 31 – Trump restricted travel from China
> > • February 2 – First Coronavirus death outside China was in the Philippines
> > • February 5 – Diamond Princess cruise ship quarantined in Yokohama, Japan. By Feb. 13th, 218 passengers were infected with Coronavirus.
> > • February 14 – First Coronavirus death in Europe occurred in France
> > • February 23 – Italy sees a major surge in Coronavirus cases
> > • February 29 – US records its first Coronavirus death in Seattle. Trump issues do not travel order for areas in Italy, Iran and South Korea
> > • March 3 – CDC lifted all testing restrictions on testing for Coronavirus
> > • March 13 – Trump declares a national emergency (Seniors Practice Day)
> > • March 15 – CDC advises no gatherings of 50 people or more for the next eight weeks. Florida Governor on this day recommended a limit of gatherings to 10 people.
> > In the news, we had several of the doctors tell us things were not that bad. They said the Coronavirus was similar to the flu. This was based on data from China and no one really knew how bad this virus was going to get.. Nancy Pelosi on February 24 made a big deal about coming to Chinatown in San Francisco. On February 29th, Dr Fauci was telling people that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large. At the end of this statement he also said things could change and we would have to seriously address the virus. This was the first time we felt we needed to address this issue. On March 8th, Governor Cuomo says New Yorkers should not panic over the virus. At this point NY only had 89 cases. This was 5 days before the beginning of the contest. So, New York, the largest and most severe of the states that were hit in the US, was advising their residents that there was not a reason to quarantine or shut down transportation, shops, or restaurants.
> > The first week of March we still did not have a single case within 100 miles of the gliderport. Seminole-Lake is located in a rural area, but within 14 miles of Disney World and all the visitors that the attraction brought to Central Florida.
> > At the Seniors, we had already made the decision the beginning of March to make adjustments on how we served the dinners in the hangar. Tables and chairs were disinfected before and after dinners. Servers had to wear gloves, utensils were handed to you with a plate and napkin by a volunteer in gloves. Even ice tea was handed to you so you wouldn’t come in contact with another glass. However, we still sat 8 to a table. Then on March 12th (day before the practice day), a meeting was held with both Contest Managers, the Contest Director, Scorer and the Seminole-Lake Manager. We decided to cancel all pilots’ meetings, mandatory safety meeting, and require social distancing if we needed a front of the grid meeting. We established electronic means to disseminate all information normally covered by these meetings. Paper task sheets were still passed out by the Scorer on the grid, but he was wearing gloves. We also restricted access to the office to keep our staff separated from the contestants. Several contestants that had conditions that put them at greater risk from the virus withdrew from the Seniors. On March 15th when the federal and Florida state governments recommended limits on the numbers of people that should gather together, the contest staff made the decision to continue. Competitors were asked on that evening if they still wanted to do dinners together in the hangar, they said yes. We did offer them a “to go” option by boxing up the dinner so they could eat in their RV. The Seniors ended on March 20. The awards banquet normally held at a golf resort was changed to a hangar event to limit contact with people outside our group. Two weeks later everyone contacted us to see if anyone was sick. Of all of our contestants, crews, staff and volunteers, we only had one pilot who took ill. He traveled to a couple of locations after the contest, including southeast Florida. He fell ill on the return trip to his home out west. At the two week point he was ill but tested negative for the virus. This pilot started to feel better and then got worse. He then tested positive. However, his wife did not get the virus. Today, everyone is fine.
> > So, you can always Monday morning quarterback any decision. However, given what we knew at the time, decisions were made to safeguard everyone anyway. We did not treat this evolving threat lightly even though New Yorkers were told they didn’t have to change their habits just 5 days before the contest. If the Seniors were scheduled one week later, I’m sure we would have cancelled. Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.
> > Sincerely,
> > Rich Owen
> > Co-Contest Manager
> > Senior Soaring Championship
>
> Well documented response Rich, very accurate description of the timeline. What else could anyone do, NOTHING! Bob

Thank you for the detailed timeline and decision process. My question was not one to second guess the actions.
BOISE Pilot

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Agreed.....
Easy to "Monday morning quarterback", but this virus came sorta fast and hard and many reliable sources seemed to be downplaying it early on.
Why?, many possible reasons (lack of info from overseas, lack of understanding in other countries, heck, maybe even lack of believing....).
Whatever, here we are.
Some areas can likely sorta carry on with minimum negative impact, others are going to wait it out for a month or more (I am in the NE USofA tri-state area....)...
Chose what you can deal with, keep in mind your choice may be imposed on others that don't agree with you.
Fortunately for most of my family, we can work from home (or retired) so not a major issue. My daughter worked retail, hope she applied for unemployment....

[2G]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 11:01:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Tom,
>
> When the snowbirds started arriving in November, and the contestants were rolling in after January 1st, Seminole-Lake Gliderport could have never foreseen the challenges we would face. The news in late January and early February regarding the new virus in China seemed not so bad. The closer we got to the contest, the worse it became. In Florida, we had very few cases and they were mainly in the southern section of the state. Here is a timeline I pulled from the New York Times written by Derrick Taylor:
> • Dec 31, 2019 – The government in Wuhan, China confirmed that they were treating dozens of cases of pneumonia of unknown cause
> • January 11, 2020 – First reported death from an illness caused by the virus. This man was 61 years old with a history of abdominal tumors and chronic liver disease
> • January 20 – First confirmed case outside Chine appeared in Japan, South Korea, and Thailand. The next day a cause was discovered in Washington State.
> • January 23 – China cut off Wuhan from travel to other parts of China. Travel to other countries was not halted (last sentence came from Fox News)
> • January 30 – W.H.O. declared a global health emergency
> • January 31 – Trump restricted travel from China
> • February 2 – First Coronavirus death outside China was in the Philippines
> • February 5 – Diamond Princess cruise ship quarantined in Yokohama, Japan. By Feb. 13th, 218 passengers were infected with Coronavirus.
> • February 14 – First Coronavirus death in Europe occurred in France
> • February 23 – Italy sees a major surge in Coronavirus cases
> • February 29 – US records its first Coronavirus death in Seattle. Trump issues do not travel order for areas in Italy, Iran and South Korea
> • March 3 – CDC lifted all testing restrictions on testing for Coronavirus
> • March 13 – Trump declares a national emergency (Seniors Practice Day)
> • March 15 – CDC advises no gatherings of 50 people or more for the next eight weeks. Florida Governor on this day recommended a limit of gatherings to 10 people.
> In the news, we had several of the doctors tell us things were not that bad. They said the Coronavirus was similar to the flu. This was based on data from China and no one really knew how bad this virus was going to get. Nancy Pelosi on February 24 made a big deal about coming to Chinatown in San Francisco. On February 29th, Dr Fauci was telling people that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large. At the end of this statement he also said things could change and we would have to seriously address the virus. This was the first time we felt we needed to address this issue. On March 8th, Governor Cuomo says New Yorkers should not panic over the virus. At this point NY only had 89 cases. This was 5 days before the beginning of the contest. So, New York, the largest and most severe of the states that were hit in the US, was advising their residents that there was not a reason to quarantine or shut down transportation, shops, or restaurants.
> The first week of March we still did not have a single case within 100 miles of the gliderport. Seminole-Lake is located in a rural area, but within 14 miles of Disney World and all the visitors that the attraction brought to Central Florida.
> At the Seniors, we had already made the decision the beginning of March to make adjustments on how we served the dinners in the hangar. Tables and chairs were disinfected before and after dinners. Servers had to wear gloves, utensils were handed to you with a plate and napkin by a volunteer in gloves. Even ice tea was handed to you so you wouldn’t come in contact with another glass. However, we still sat 8 to a table. Then on March 12th (day before the practice day), a meeting was held with both Contest Managers, the Contest Director, Scorer and the Seminole-Lake Manager. We decided to cancel all pilots’ meetings, mandatory safety meeting, and require social distancing if we needed a front of the grid meeting. We established electronic means to disseminate all information normally covered by these meetings. Paper task sheets were still passed out by the Scorer on the grid, but he was wearing gloves. We also restricted access to the office to keep our staff separated from the contestants. Several contestants that had conditions that put them at greater risk from the virus withdrew from the Seniors. On March 15th when the federal and Florida state governments recommended limits on the numbers of people that should gather together, the contest staff made the decision to continue. Competitors were asked on that evening if they still wanted to do dinners together in the hangar, they said yes. We did offer them a “to go” option by boxing up the dinner so they could eat in their RV. The Seniors ended on March 20. The awards banquet normally held at a golf resort was changed to a hangar event to limit contact with people outside our group. Two weeks later everyone contacted us to see if anyone was sick. Of all of our contestants, crews, staff and volunteers, we only had one pilot who took ill. He traveled to a couple of locations after the contest, including southeast Florida. He fell ill on the return trip to his home out west. At the two week point he was ill but tested negative for the virus. This pilot started to feel better and then got worse. He then tested positive. However, his wife did not get the virus. Today, everyone is fine.
> So, you can always Monday morning quarterback any decision. However, given what we knew at the time, decisions were made to safeguard everyone anyway. We did not treat this evolving threat lightly even though New Yorkers were told they didn’t have to change their habits just 5 days before the contest. If the Seniors were scheduled one week later, I’m sure we would have cancelled. Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.
> Sincerely,
> Rich Owen
> Co-Contest Manager
> Senior Soaring Championship

Rich,

I didn't say you could predict the future. I said "If you knew what we know NOW." I certainly don't expect you to know the future any more than I expect Pres. Trump to know it. But I think it would be a bad idea to say "Well, they had no problems at the Seniors, so we can go ahead with our contest." This disease is such a crap shoot that taking a chance could cost lives. I don't think it will be safe to hold a contest or meet this summer because I don't believe the COVID19 testing will be either available in large quantities or accurate enough.

Tom

[[email protected]]

I don't think it will be safe to hold a contest or meet this summer because I don't believe the COVID19 testing will be either available in large quantities or accurate enough.
>
> Tom

Well, Tom, I guess you should not go to any contests. I also suggest you quit trying to force your opinion on everybody else. Up until recently, I enjoyed having something like "freedom of choice." I miss it.

Note that today is the 245th anniversary of the start of the American Revolution with the battles at Lexington and Concord.

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 8:19:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I don't think it will be safe to hold a contest or meet this summer because I don't believe the COVID19 testing will be either available in large quantities or accurate enough.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Well, Tom, I guess you should not go to any contests. I also suggest you quit trying to force your opinion on everybody else. Up until recently, I enjoyed having something like "freedom of choice." I miss it.
>
> Note that today is the 245th anniversary of the start of the American Revolution with the battles at Lexington and Concord.

Does that freedeom of choice extend to choosing what risks you expose others to?

[[email protected]]

Yes. But with freedom to choose, the responsibility to choose wisely is inherent. I resent having my freedom and the associated responsibility dictated by others.

[[email protected]]

Real life can not be put on hold indefinitely. Maybe folks who are independantly wealthy or who work for the government can stay on vacation indefinitely. But the vast majority of us need to work and get our businesses back in order!

If you feel at risk, then stay the heck home. If you have a weakened immune system or are elderly, or infirmed, then it is your responsibility to take whatever precautions you need to take. I for one can not put my business on hold for another six months because others are worried about becoming infected. My first responsibility is to my family, not yours. If I stay locked down I will have no business to return to, I will be added to the ranks of the unemployed, and I am sure those of you who think I should self quarantine are NOT going to be mailing me checks to cover my bills!

Get used to this virus, its not going away and if your putting your hope in an effective vaccine, good luck! Don’t have one for the common cold yet, or aids, or many other viral strains that are plagueing us. And the efficacy of the annual flu shot produced every year sucks. 40,000 died last year alone due to the common flu.
Dan

[[email protected]]

Tom,

Sorry, but I did not take your comments as second guessing our decision. We wanted to explain to the soaring community why we made the decision to proceed together with the precautions we took. For those contests that are not cancelled now, maybe it will help those organizers in their preparations. I agree with the vast majority of contest organizers that this virus will make it almost impossible to hold a contest this year. There are a multitude of smart people working on drug treatments to combat this virus. Testing confidence and availability in very large quantities is not here yet. There maybe some drug regimens that hold promise, but until more data comes in, I do not believe a silver bullet will be forthcoming in the next few months. The Contest Committee held off removing sanction authority for the last couple of contests because they are a ways off. All we can do is hunker down, review our flights from past adventures, and get ready when the gate opens. We are still flying at Seminole-Lake with restrictions just like some clubs in the US are doing. However, if you are not flying, I would recommend taking a flight with an instructor first. For those of you up north, your winter season just got a little longer. Hope every one's family is safe.

[[email protected]]

So, I hope Jim lee is okay and recovering. Anyone know his present status? Hopefully he will acquire
the herd immunity associated with recovery from the virus.

Walt Connelly
Happy Helicopter Pilot.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 3:03:51 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> Yes. But with freedom to choose, the responsibility to choose wisely is inherent. I resent having my freedom and the associated responsibility dictated by others.

Freedom of choice and a population based epidemiological response to a pandemic are, unfortunately, and temporarily, mutually exclusive.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> Does that freedom of choice extend to choosing what risks you expose
> others to?

Apologies for contributing to thread drift, etc., but that's an interesting
(to me, anyway) philosophic question. And an important one. The United States
exists because of people who considered philosophical questions important,
with contributors ranging from Founding Fathers to grunt militia and
(ultimately) nameless/faceless individuals (in the historical sense) who voted
in favor of accepting the choice to begin a *national* experiment of a
form-of-government and nation based upon the rule of law, with the highest law
of the land being the - proposed - Constitution which they were being asked to
consider and vote upon.

History - and common sense - give the short-form answer to the above question
as, "YES!" Consider the simple act of driving one's vehicle. Unavoidably
you're exposing others to the risks inherent to your
driving-style/age/sense-of-personal-responsibility (e.g. drinking)/etc. And
then there's soaring, with the reality of landouts, etc...

In principle, the "freedom of choice" question is no different than
considering "Kung Flu questions."

For evidence principle is important in the history of the USA, one need look
no further than the Declaration of Independence (essentially a statement based
entirely on principle) and the Constitution (the fundamental legal
codification of said principles).

This nation's "proper final recourse" for civilly disagreeing with others who
hold differing views on specific issues of principle is - for better or worse
- civil lawsuits. Hugely imperfect, but there you go. So - and such - is life.

Flame suit on...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

> Freedom of choice and a population based epidemiological response to a pandemic are, unfortunately, and temporarily, mutually exclusive.

Funny, I don't see anything like that in the Constitution. I do see things like Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Assemble, Freedom to practice religion of choice (or not) and other things under the first ten Amendments, collectively known as the "Bill OF Rights."

[Dan Marotta]

How's this for flames, Bob?

BRAVO!

On 4/19/2020 9:22 AM, Bob Whelan wrote:
>> Does that freedom of choice extend to choosing what risks you expose
>> others to?
>
> Apologies for contributing to thread drift, etc., but that's an
> interesting (to me, anyway) philosophic question. And an important
> one. The United States exists because of people who considered
> philosophical questions important, with contributors ranging from
> Founding Fathers to grunt militia and (ultimately) nameless/faceless
> individuals (in the historical sense) who voted in favor of accepting
> the choice to begin a *national* experiment of a form-of-government
> and nation based upon the rule of law, with the highest law of the
> land being the - proposed - Constitution which they were being asked
> to consider and vote upon.
>
> History - and common sense - give the short-form answer to the above
> question as, "YES!" Consider the simple act of driving one's vehicle.
> Unavoidably you're exposing others to the risks inherent to your
> driving-style/age/sense-of-personal-responsibility (e.g.
> drinking)/etc. And then there's soaring, with the reality of landouts,
> etc...
>
> In principle, the "freedom of choice" question is no different than
> considering "Kung Flu questions."
>
> For evidence principle is important in the history of the USA, one
> need look no further than the Declaration of Independence (essentially
> a statement based entirely on principle) and the Constitution (the
> fundamental legal codification of said principles).
>
> This nation's "proper final recourse" for civilly disagreeing with
> others who hold differing views on specific issues of principle is -
> for better or worse - civil lawsuits. Hugely imperfect, but there you
> go. So - and such - is life.
>
> Flame suit on...
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>

--
Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:22:13 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> > A test that is wrong 50% of the time can be replaced with a coin toss.
> >
>
> Not true actually, a test with a 50% chance of being wrong can be quite useful.
>
> Suppose 2% of the population has the disease. Take a test that has 100% chance of positive if you do have it, and 50% chance of positive if you don't have it. It tells the 2 people who do have it they have it, and it tells one other healthy person he has it too. Three people stay home, 97 go soaring in perfect safety.
>
> Take a test that has 100% chance of negative if you don't have it, but 50% chance of positive if you do have it. 98 people are correctly cleared, 1 person is incorrectly cleared, 1 stays home. Well, we got half the sick people out of the population and reduced the reproduction rate by half.
>
> John Cochrane.

John, I'm afraid I don't understand the first part of your example. If you test 100 people with a test that has 50% false positives, and 2 actually have the disease, you will get 51 positive results - the two that have it and half of the remaining 98.

Fortunately, the coronavirus test is much more accurate than Bob suggests. The main problem with it is its scarcity.

[jfitch]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 8:22:19 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
> > Does that freedom of choice extend to choosing what risks you expose
> > others to?
>
> Apologies for contributing to thread drift, etc., but that's an interesting
> (to me, anyway) philosophic question. And an important one. The United States
> exists because of people who considered philosophical questions important,
> with contributors ranging from Founding Fathers to grunt militia and
> (ultimately) nameless/faceless individuals (in the historical sense) who voted
> in favor of accepting the choice to begin a *national* experiment of a
> form-of-government and nation based upon the rule of law, with the highest law
> of the land being the - proposed - Constitution which they were being asked to
> consider and vote upon.
>
> History - and common sense - give the short-form answer to the above question
> as, "YES!" Consider the simple act of driving one's vehicle. Unavoidably
> you're exposing others to the risks inherent to your
> driving-style/age/sense-of-personal-responsibility (e.g. drinking)/etc. And
> then there's soaring, with the reality of landouts, etc...
>
> In principle, the "freedom of choice" question is no different than
> considering "Kung Flu questions."
>
> For evidence principle is important in the history of the USA, one need look
> no further than the Declaration of Independence (essentially a statement based
> entirely on principle) and the Constitution (the fundamental legal
> codification of said principles).
>
> This nation's "proper final recourse" for civilly disagreeing with others who
> hold differing views on specific issues of principle is - for better or worse
> - civil lawsuits. Hugely imperfect, but there you go. So - and such - is life.
>
> Flame suit on...
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

The most recent data suggest that people are contagious 3 days before symptoms. So it is a little like driving your car not knowing if the brakes work. You are exposing others to a risk you yourself do not comprehend.

I like freedom of choice too, but the answers are not so simple.

[[email protected]]

Thread drift? If to have contests the country first needs to find a way to live with the virus, then this is a broad thread. If 1918 is any indicator, this thing will be over once nearly everybody has been infected.

For Seniors, there were no confirmed cases within 100 miles. Given what we are now hearing about asymptomatic transfer, it seems likely that there were unconfirmed cases at the WalMart and maybe on the field. Given the quantity and ages of the folks, 'dodging the bullet' seems more that just luck. There might be a lesson there of more general use.

Kudos to Rich and crew for an outstanding job of providing the tools to have a safe contest in what turned out to be a more challenging than expected environment. Even with the spotlight of Monday Morning Quarterback discussion, they did a great job. But I think that is only half the story. Each contestant also thoughtfully chose to be there and chose to use the tools wisely. The story seems a mix of top down rules and bottom up personal responsibility, both thoughtfully applied. To use only a part of the mix is fighting the virus with a hand behind your back. Instead of talking about freedom of choice versus a population based epidemiological response we need to figure out how to use both in concert.

From what I'm seeing here at the big box store, I don't think this will work with the instincts we have in the general public today. Why did it work at Seniors? One difference is that the group has a safety culture that is accustomed to managing risk individually in addition to having it managed for them. Another is that there was good leadership to nudge folks in a safe direction.

Country wide leadership seems in short supply, but locally I'm seeing signs of encouragement in small business folks figuring out how to proceed with their lives while keeping the virus at bay. We need to figure out how encourage this in the general population.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:39:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Freedom of choice and a population based epidemiological response to a pandemic are, unfortunately, and temporarily, mutually exclusive.
>
> Funny, I don't see anything like that in the Constitution. I do see things like Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Assemble, Freedom to practice religion of choice (or not) and other things under the first ten Amendments, collectively known as the "Bill OF Rights."

Not a lawyer and very open to be corrected by one, but...
Maybe you didn't quite get to the 10th amendment then? Somewhat indirect in it's application to freedom of assembly... but essentially undisputed in the opinion as to the legality of the states pass quarantine laws (and federal quarantine powers were enacted during the Spanish Flu pandemic) as long as they are not applied with prejudice to any one religion, etc. Scalia firmly defended much of this, in case you were thinking it was a Democratic issue item. Republicans used to be staunch defenders states rights, hard to tell what their position is now on a variety of topics...
Anyhoo, a very basic, honest look into some of these very simple constitutional concepts would lead to pretty clear answers. Currently there are lot's of legal scholars weighing in on the real and difficult constitutional issues the virus has brought to the fore. The right to limit assembly by states under emergency powers is not one of them. Some are challenging the idea that the current crisis does not rise to the level of emergency. I am not one of them, but I'm just a simple internet user and glider pilot.

[George Haeh]

Taiwan is so far doing very well.

Being next door to the world's top novel virus incubator, speaking the same language and having long experience of having to apply close scrutiny to official pronouncements from across the strait, Taiwan maintains preparedness that other countries would do well to emulate.

Taiwan maintains a stock of PPE and manufacturing capability at a time when other countries such as Canada have to wrangle orders and charter PPE flights from China.

Each citizen has a ration of three masks per week @ ~17¢ each which they can pick up at local stores.

Contact tracing is assiduous and those quarantined are supported with visits, grocery deliveries and even a salary.

The rest of the folks put on a mask and go to school or work.

Hopefully when PPE is widely available, the rest of us can get our noses back on the grindstone.

Just to repeat, the chief role of masks is preventing spread from asymptomatic carriers.

Closer to home, two Alberta meat processing plants have exploded with 300 and 100 cases in the last few days. The spouse of one of the infected workers unfortunately works in a care home.

[2G]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 5:19:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I don't think it will be safe to hold a contest or meet this summer because I don't believe the COVID19 testing will be either available in large quantities or accurate enough.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Well, Tom, I guess you should not go to any contests. I also suggest you quit trying to force your opinion on everybody else. Up until recently, I enjoyed having something like "freedom of choice." I miss it.
>
> Note that today is the 245th anniversary of the start of the American Revolution with the battles at Lexington and Concord.

Sounds like YOU are the one trying to force their opinions on others.

[2G]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 7:45:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Sorry, but I did not take your comments as second guessing our decision. We wanted to explain to the soaring community why we made the decision to proceed together with the precautions we took. For those contests that are not cancelled now, maybe it will help those organizers in their preparations. I agree with the vast majority of contest organizers that this virus will make it almost impossible to hold a contest this year. There are a multitude of smart people working on drug treatments to combat this virus. Testing confidence and availability in very large quantities is not here yet. There maybe some drug regimens that hold promise, but until more data comes in, I do not believe a silver bullet will be forthcoming in the next few months. The Contest Committee held off removing sanction authority for the last couple of contests because they are a ways off. All we can do is hunker down, review our flights from past adventures, and get ready when the gate opens. We are still flying at Seminole-Lake with restrictions just like some clubs in the US are doing. However, if you are not flying, I would recommend taking a flight with an instructor first. For those of you up north, your winter season just got a little longer. Hope every one's family is safe.

Oh, I am flying alright - I flew today and yesterday. Thank God for motorgliders! No, I thought your decision to hold the contest was the right one AT THAT TIME.

Tom

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 3:22:27 PM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> > Jim Lee came down with presumed case on his drive home, per report from his wife.
>
> From my understanding this case finally turned out to be positive, please correct me if I am wrong. The test has a 50% capacity of being wrong positive and negative.

We can assume that he has recovered as he flew a 845 km task yesterday.

https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/daily.html?st=olc&rt=olc&df=&sp=2020&c=US&sc=


Richard

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 9:49:44 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 8:22:19 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
> > > Does that freedom of choice extend to choosing what risks you expose
> > > others to?
> >
> > Apologies for contributing to thread drift, etc., but that's an interesting
> > (to me, anyway) philosophic question. And an important one. The United States
> > exists because of people who considered philosophical questions important,
> > with contributors ranging from Founding Fathers to grunt militia and
> > (ultimately) nameless/faceless individuals (in the historical sense) who voted
> > in favor of accepting the choice to begin a *national* experiment of a
> > form-of-government and nation based upon the rule of law, with the highest law
> > of the land being the - proposed - Constitution which they were being asked to
> > consider and vote upon.
> >
> > History - and common sense - give the short-form answer to the above question
> > as, "YES!" Consider the simple act of driving one's vehicle. Unavoidably
> > you're exposing others to the risks inherent to your
> > driving-style/age/sense-of-personal-responsibility (e.g. drinking)/etc. And
> > then there's soaring, with the reality of landouts, etc...
> >
> > In principle, the "freedom of choice" question is no different than
> > considering "Kung Flu questions."
> >
> > For evidence principle is important in the history of the USA, one need look
> > no further than the Declaration of Independence (essentially a statement based
> > entirely on principle) and the Constitution (the fundamental legal
> > codification of said principles).
> >
> > This nation's "proper final recourse" for civilly disagreeing with others who
> > hold differing views on specific issues of principle is - for better or worse
> > - civil lawsuits. Hugely imperfect, but there you go. So - and such - is life.
> >
> > Flame suit on...
> >
> > Bob W.
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
>
> The most recent data suggest that people are contagious 3 days before symptoms. So it is a little like driving your car not knowing if the brakes work. You are exposing others to a risk you yourself do not comprehend.
>
> I like freedom of choice too, but the answers are not so simple.

I actually have a gliding story about brakes. I was landing my Nimbus 4T, all 1131 pounds empty, with a quartering headwind of about 12 knots, for only the second time. Mt previous two gliders were AS birds with the brake at the end of the spoiler pull. The AS gliders have a handle on the stick which is the trim. SH birds have the brake on the stick. As I was rolling out I didn't seem to be getting much braking no matter how hard of squeezed the stick brake or the spoilers, the quartering head wind had turned the big Nimbus to head directly at what we called skid row (6, 1-26's tied down).. It was too late to ground loop it and the gentleman working on his glider at skid row, just gave me a friendly wave, apparently not noticing the terror in my eyes. Fortunately a very young and spry Garret Willat tucked under the wing of the moving Nimbus grabbed ahold of the vertical and got the bird stopped about two feet from making a dent throughout skid row. And I am sorry gentleman, a gliding themed post seems out of place on RAS now, please forgive my natural tendencies.

[Bojack J4]

Well Mark, can my icu nurse then choose not to treat you when you come in gasping for air?

Very selfish and short sighted comments by you.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 6:28:38 PM UTC-6, Bojack J4 wrote:
> Well Mark, can my icu nurse then choose not to treat you when you come in gasping for air?
>
> Very selfish and short sighted comments by you.

Does your ICU nurse refuse to treat motorcyclists who don't wear a helmet? Does she refuse treatment to drunks who play with fireworks? Does a hospital (publicly funded) have the right to refuse treatment to the taxpayer who contributed to its existence?

But if I protest the over reach of the Government restricting my Constitutional rights, like freedom to assemble, practice (a) religion or just leave my house to visit a (non-essential) business, you think I am personally carrying the plague. I disagree, especially since I live in a rural community with virtually no cases of COVID-19. But a hell of a lot of future bankruptcies, loss of livelihoods, increasing domestic abuse, and financial hardship on some of my favorite people. You know, the charming waitresses who used to laugh with me over morning coffee, the guys at the welding shop who used to sell me steel for my projects and all the other folks who made our lives happy and productive.

It's going to be tragic when we see the suicide rates skyrocket as the social pressure causes vulnerable people to just give up.

I notice that a lot of bureaucrats are not working, but are still drawing full pay. I guess I am not that important. I am self employed, don't qualify for all of the handouts designed to make us more dependent on Government charity and I am resigned to the probability that the egregious plunge into debt to prop up the economy will result in rampant inflation due to the unprecedented increase in the money supply.

Yes, I practice "social distancing," wear a face covering when appropriate and minimize my travel. But I consider myself an "essential business," simply because I like to eat food, and I have to do something to be able to afford to do so.

Send me a ****load of money so I can become one of you.

[[email protected]]

Very well said Markm!!! I agree wholeheartedly!

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 6:37:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 6:28:38 PM UTC-6, Bojack J4 wrote:
> > Well Mark, can my icu nurse then choose not to treat you when you come in gasping for air?
> >
> > Very selfish and short sighted comments by you.
>
> Does your ICU nurse refuse to treat motorcyclists who don't wear a helmet? Does she refuse treatment to drunks who play with fireworks? Does a hospital (publicly funded) have the right to refuse treatment to the taxpayer who contributed to its existence?
>
> But if I protest the over reach of the Government restricting my Constitutional rights, like freedom to assemble, practice (a) religion or just leave my house to visit a (non-essential) business, you think I am personally carrying the plague. I disagree, especially since I live in a rural community with virtually no cases of COVID-19. But a hell of a lot of future bankruptcies, loss of livelihoods, increasing domestic abuse, and financial hardship on some of my favorite people. You know, the charming waitresses who used to laugh with me over morning coffee, the guys at the welding shop who used to sell me steel for my projects and all the other folks who made our lives happy and productive.
>
> It's going to be tragic when we see the suicide rates skyrocket as the social pressure causes vulnerable people to just give up.
>
> I notice that a lot of bureaucrats are not working, but are still drawing full pay. I guess I am not that important. I am self employed, don't qualify for all of the handouts designed to make us more dependent on Government charity and I am resigned to the probability that the egregious plunge into debt to prop up the economy will result in rampant inflation due to the unprecedented increase in the money supply.
>
> Yes, I practice "social distancing," wear a face covering when appropriate and minimize my travel. But I consider myself an "essential business," simply because I like to eat food, and I have to do something to be able to afford to do so.
>
> Send me a ****load of money so I can become one of you.

I agree with your comment Mark. Inflation and national debt are a huge concern.

[Mike N.]

Agreed as well. With a further add on point.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I am not part of the hive mind! I.e. the Borg hive mind of ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, BBC, etc... and yes Fox news.

The reason free speech portion of the 1st amendment was put in place was to allow for dissenting opion.

That right has in a practical practice been eliminated.

I will not get much further into this except to mention that I find it alarming that YouTube has deleted several videos regarding the handling on this pandemic that questioned the practices of social distancing and other overreaching actions taken by both federal and state governments.

Certainly they have e the right to do so as they are not actually a public entity. However it is still alarming to me. When we are afraid to debate or discuss dissenting opinions regardless of the situation we are lesser because of that fear.
I will try to make good common sense decisions to minimize the spread of a pandemic. At the same time I will not live in the fear propagated by the hive "chicken little, the sky is falling" mentality.

[Stephen Szikora]

Freedom of speech does not require freedom to be heard. Shout all you want but if others shout louder ... too bad.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 9:02:02 AM UTC-7, Stephen Szikora wrote:
> Freedom of speech does not require freedom to be heard. Shout all you want but if others shout louder ... too bad.

Don't forget there are limits on freedom of speech, for public safety.

[John Foster]

On Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 3:00:46 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, May 7, 2020 at 9:02:02 AM UTC-7, Stephen Szikora wrote:
> > Freedom of speech does not require freedom to be heard. Shout all you want but if others shout louder ... too bad.
>
> Don't forget there are limits on freedom of speech, for public safety.

And those same limits should be applied to the Press just as they are applied to the individual. But the moment anyone starts talking about ANY limitations on the Press, people throw up their arms in horror.

If the Press create unnecessary fear and panic, they should be held to the same standard as someone who yells "Fire" in a crowded movie theater.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 07 May 2020 15:31:05 -0700, John Foster wrote:

> If the Press create unnecessary fear and panic, they should be held to
> the same standard as someone who yells "Fire" in a crowded movie
> theater.
>
If, as I hear, companies are regarded by US law as 'people', then surely
those same laws already apply to Press, TeleVision the likes of FarceBook.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[JB Gunner]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 11:13:29 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 3:03:51 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> > Yes. But with freedom to choose, the responsibility to choose wisely is inherent. I resent having my freedom and the associated responsibility dictated by others.
>
> Freedom of choice and a population based epidemiological response to a pandemic are, unfortunately, and temporarily, mutually exclusive.

no

[Mike N.]

There is nothing in our constitution I am aware of, that states our 1st ammendment rights can be "temporarily" suspended. For good reason.

The protests against overreaching mandates in certain states, and the arrest or intimidation of church goers in certain states or cities being two good examples.

The point is, it doesn't matter if you personally disagree with the actions taken. The whole point of the ammendment is to allow for a variety of opinions to be heard.

I am not of the hive...

[[email protected]]

I'm glad to be away from urban life and 6 million of my closest strangers.

Can't think of any time other than tornados and earthquakes that require civilian field hospitals. The more common flu strains don't overwhelm the health care system...oh, except that new one 100 years ago:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504358/

[[email protected]]

This talks about viral loads to get sick and how different situations affect.

Outdoor stuff seems much safer than long term indoor.
Maybe hope for contests with the right precautions.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Yep....tried to stay away......depends on where you are.....
Me...sorta "ground zero" in NY metro area...

Sucks.

"East bum fork" other US/world...different animal.....

I have family and friends "exposed", thus, I do my bit.
I 'm "jonesing" on not flying.
I have buried a few from the current virus...

Maybe some on multiple threads on RAS will change thoughts when they lose family or friends.
Yes....lockdown kills economy.....
Groups can kill peeps..

I do what I want, you do what you want....sorry if your choice may kill someone you want based on your decision.....hopefully your family, not someone else's family.....

Nuff said.....

[[email protected]]

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 6:26:04 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Yep....tried to stay away......depends on where you are.....
> Me...sorta "ground zero" in NY metro area...
>
> Sucks.
>
> "East bum fork" other US/world...different animal.....
>
> I have family and friends "exposed", thus, I do my bit.
> I 'm "jonesing" on not flying.
> I have buried a few from the current virus...
>
> Maybe some on multiple threads on RAS will change thoughts when they lose family or friends.
> Yes....lockdown kills economy.....
> Groups can kill peeps..
>
> I do what I want, you do what you want....sorry if your choice may kill someone you want based on your decision.....hopefully your family, not someone else's family.....
>
> Nuff said.....

You just wished death on my friends and family. Just because you are scared doesn't mean you have the moral high ground. And decisions made from fear are much more likely to be wrong. I don't know what could help you but try to not be scared, being scared is incredibly unhealthy.

[[email protected]]

Found another interesting way to spend time.

This Week in Virology Podcast has been around for 10years.

https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/page/2/


Here's an interesting 3 and a half minutes.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/twiv/TWiV597.mp3

Start at 1:12:15

[[email protected]]

Kind of a guess, but maybe the best available stats to date.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/