What it's all about

[Jay Honeck]

Yesterday was one of those glorious early spring days that can only
happen in the Midwest. The air was crisp and dry, so that when you
stood in the sun you were warm, but a step into the shade required a
sweater. The wind sock was just flopping around, the horizon was razor
sharp, and the pattern was full all day long.

It was into this perfect atmosphere that the Hampton Aviation
Association -- a group of some 25 pilots and enthusiasts -- descended
upon Iowa City and the Inn.

Led by a dentist (who owns *the* 1936 Stinson 8E that Hallmark used as
the model for their 2002 Aviation Christmas Ornament), this bunch of
pilots and enthusiasts evolved from the group that used to organize the
annual Hampton Air Show. Even though the air show is long defunct, each
year they all try to travel as a group to an interesting new locale,
and since they had heard about us through last year's AOPA article,
this year it was our turn.

So, just like *that*, they booked the whole hotel!

It was a day spent absolutely immersed in aviation. After an hour or
so of hangar lying, er, flying, I shuttled half the group headed over
to the University of Iowa's Boeing 737 simulator, where groups of four
were able to see the latest in "Highway in the Sky" technology. The
other half -- most of the wives -- headed off to the nearby Amana
Colonies for a day of shopping.

After proving that it IS possible to crash a 737, the group shuffled
across the tarmac to Don Gurnett's hangar. Don, a hangar neighbor of
mine, was kind enough to give the group an impromptu tour of his
gorgeous North American AT-6, and another hanger mate, Justin
Fishbaugh, showed off his just-completed (first flight: Next week!)
Glasair III. Ten years in the building, it's an exquisite work of art.

After five solid hours of aviating (without ever leaving the ground!),
the whole gang reunited for dinner at Iowa City's premier microbrewery,
the Old Capitol Brewery. Their fabulous beer, brewed in tiny batches,
flowed freely, and a great time was had by all.

(And, as a very pleasant surprise, Mike Shelly -- of this very
newsgroup -- popped in unexpectedly to share dinner with us!)

Whenever I lay awake at nights, questioning the sanity of buying an old
hotel to turn into a fly-in aviation destination, I only need to remind
myself of days like these -- 12 solid hours spent talking, living,
breathing this thing we all love, aviation.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Denny]

You realize, that WILL be deducted from your time in paradise!

denny

[Grumman-581]

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
oups.com...
> (And, as a very pleasant surprise, Mike Shelly -- of this very
> newsgroup -- popped in unexpectedly to share dinner with us!)

Nice to meet you Jay... Nice restaurant... Good beer... All in all, a really
nice evening... Up to the point where I caught them trying to steal my
truck... Is this a scam that they try to run on all the people with out of
state plates on their vehicles?

[bdl]

> I shuttled half the group headed over
> to the University of Iowa's Boeing 737 simulator,
> where groups of four were able to see the latest
> in "Highway in the Sky" technology.

Hey Jay, is that simulator open to the public, or did the group arrange
for a special tour? Does the U of Iowa have a relationship with
Boeing?

Brian

[Jay Honeck]

> Nice to meet you Jay... Nice restaurant... Good beer... All in all, a
really
> nice evening...

Same here!

> Up to the point where I caught them trying to steal my
> truck... Is this a scam that they try to run on all the people with
out of
> state plates on their vehicles?

Nah -- only when I need some cash. (When we turn in guys with out of
state plates, we get to split the fine with the tow truck driver!)

:-)

Hey, if you're free on any Wed/Thu, give me a buzz. That's our
"weekend", and we can stay out later than 8:30! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

Nah, it's not open to the public -- you've got to "know" someone.
(Although the guy in charge of the thing has now asked that I limit the
weekend tours, as it's hard for his people to come in on their off
time...)

The sim really isn't about Boeing, it's about situational awareness and
development of the new "Highway in the Sky" technology. It's a lot of
fun, very cool, and very educational.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jason Dodd]

Nice to see another Iowan! I myself was flying for nearly 4 hours
yesterday. Had a friend, and then all my kids taking turns flying.
(46IA and IKV)

I was a great day! Much better than Friday, which was rougher than heck
when I was up.

Jason Dodd
PPSEL IA
Colo, Ia



Jay Honeck wrote:
> Nah, it's not open to the public -- you've got to "know" someone.
> (Although the guy in charge of the thing has now asked that I limit the
> weekend tours, as it's hard for his people to come in on their off
> time...)
>
> The sim really isn't about Boeing, it's about situational awareness and
> development of the new "Highway in the Sky" technology. It's a lot of
> fun, very cool, and very educational.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Grumman-581]

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
> Nah -- only when I need some cash. (When we turn in guys with out of
> state plates, we get to split the fine with the tow truck driver!)

Well, it's a nice little scam they got there... If they hadn't given it back
to me at that time, the incident would have escalated... I was rather ****ed
at that point... Back in Texas, they've been shot for that type of crap and
it was perfectly legal...

> Hey, if you're free on any Wed/Thu, give me a buzz. That's our
> "weekend", and we can stay out later than 8:30! :-)

Can't make any plans right now... I'll have to wait and see how this next
week goes...

I'm off to the CID airport to arrange a flight to New Orleans in a couple of
weeks... I'll be headed down to the gun range near Swisher afterwards... I
need to go blow up some things to relieve some stress... You were wondering
where it was last night... Here's the directions...

Take I-380 to exit 10... Head west on that road (CR F12 / 120th St, NW)
until you get to the stop sign (approx 0.4 miles)... There is a gas station
on your left... Take a left there and head south on IA-965 approximately 2.4
miles until you get to Cou Falls Rd... If you cross the Iowa River, you've
gone too far... Take a right on Cou Falls Road... After about 0.25 miles,
the you will come to a "Y" in the road... Stay to the left... You will cross
a small bridge and the road will become a dirt road... After about a mile,
you'll see some large gashes cut into the side of a hill on your right...
The first one appears to be for handguns and smaller caliber rifles... The
latter one with the concrete conduit shooting positions appears to be for
higher powered rifles... Another mile or two down the road will get you to
an area on your left where people shoot clays / skeet...

[ShawnD2112]

>(who owns *the* 1936 Stinson 8E that Hallmark used as
> the model for their 2002 Aviation Christmas Ornament),

....a copy of which happens to be sitting right next to my computer here in
London as I read this. My mother gave me the ornament that year and I've
liked it so much I've never put it away! Interesting connection...

Sounds like you're enjoying the risk you took in venturing out into the
business beyond. I'm considering a job change into a new field and as a
freelancer. Feeling those same pangs of risk but hoping in a year I'm
enjoying some of the benefits as much as you seem to, Jay.

Thanks for sharing and I hope it always goes as well for you!

Shawn
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yesterday was one of those glorious early spring days that can only
> happen in the Midwest. The air was crisp and dry, so that when you
> stood in the sun you were warm, but a step into the shade required a
> sweater. The wind sock was just flopping around, the horizon was razor
> sharp, and the pattern was full all day long.
>
> It was into this perfect atmosphere that the Hampton Aviation
> Association -- a group of some 25 pilots and enthusiasts -- descended
> upon Iowa City and the Inn.
>
> Led by a dentist (who owns *the* 1936 Stinson 8E that Hallmark used as
> the model for their 2002 Aviation Christmas Ornament), this bunch of
> pilots and enthusiasts evolved from the group that used to organize the
> annual Hampton Air Show. Even though the air show is long defunct, each
> year they all try to travel as a group to an interesting new locale,
> and since they had heard about us through last year's AOPA article,
> this year it was our turn.
>
> So, just like *that*, they booked the whole hotel!
>
> It was a day spent absolutely immersed in aviation. After an hour or
> so of hangar lying, er, flying, I shuttled half the group headed over
> to the University of Iowa's Boeing 737 simulator, where groups of four
> were able to see the latest in "Highway in the Sky" technology. The
> other half -- most of the wives -- headed off to the nearby Amana
> Colonies for a day of shopping.
>
> After proving that it IS possible to crash a 737, the group shuffled
> across the tarmac to Don Gurnett's hangar. Don, a hangar neighbor of
> mine, was kind enough to give the group an impromptu tour of his
> gorgeous North American AT-6, and another hanger mate, Justin
> Fishbaugh, showed off his just-completed (first flight: Next week!)
> Glasair III. Ten years in the building, it's an exquisite work of art.
>
> After five solid hours of aviating (without ever leaving the ground!),
> the whole gang reunited for dinner at Iowa City's premier microbrewery,
> the Old Capitol Brewery. Their fabulous beer, brewed in tiny batches,
> flowed freely, and a great time was had by all.
>
> (And, as a very pleasant surprise, Mike Shelly -- of this very
> newsgroup -- popped in unexpectedly to share dinner with us!)
>
> Whenever I lay awake at nights, questioning the sanity of buying an old
> hotel to turn into a fly-in aviation destination, I only need to remind
> myself of days like these -- 12 solid hours spent talking, living,
> breathing this thing we all love, aviation.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>Yesterday was one of those glorious early spring days that can only
>happen in the Midwest. The air was crisp and dry, so that when you
>stood in the sun you were warm, but a step into the shade required a
>sweater. The wind sock was just flopping around, the horizon was razor
>sharp, and the pattern was full all day long.

Whereas I'm stuck in Ottawa with a AIRMET for icing covering my entire
route home. And I forgot to bring any work so I can't even bill any hours
while I'm waiting for the rain and snow to clear.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Endless Loop: n., see Loop, Endless.
Loop, Endless: n., see Endless Loop.
-- Random Shack Data Processing Dictionary

[Andrew Gideon]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Whenever I lay awake at nights, questioning the sanity of buying an old
> hotel to turn into a fly-in aviation destination, I only need to remind
> myself of days like these -- 12 solid hours spent talking, living,
> breathing this thing we all love, aviation.

This is why I cannot figure out why we don't see more pilots at the various
"events" or "meetings" we have around here. It's all just glorified
"hanger flying", with the occasional safety seminar thrown in for fun.

Still...before I tried this, it never occurred to me how much fun they'd be.
But I was drawn to go...and then I was hooked.

- Andrew

P.S. There's a Kathy Jaffe seminar on April 5 in Fairfield, NJ.
You can read more about it at:

http://www.midatlanticpilots.com/kathyjaffe.html

[Jay Honeck]

> Sounds like you're enjoying the risk you took in venturing out into the
> business beyond. I'm considering a job change into a new field and as a
> freelancer. Feeling those same pangs of risk but hoping in a year I'm
> enjoying some of the benefits as much as you seem to, Jay.

Well, this is our third business, and by far the riskiest one.

So far, however, I have to say that it's been a blast. Not very profitable,
mind you (we're still pouring everything we make -- and more -- into the
renovation), but it's just hard to imagine doing anything more fun than
hanging out with pilots all day.

Of course, when I'm standing ankle deep in sh*t, plunging an over-flowing
toilet that's pouring into the suite, below, all cuz some bird-brain flushed
one of our pens down the toilet, I try to remember all this...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Whereas I'm stuck in Ottawa with a AIRMET for icing covering my entire
> route home. And I forgot to bring any work so I can't even bill any hours
> while I'm waiting for the rain and snow to clear.

Ouch. That sucks, man.

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Awww man, you definitely topped me this weekend Jay!
> But, for me and my family "what it's all about" is taking off after
> breakfast, flying over the pond to see the in-laws the "other" cousins and
> great-grandparents for lunch, then being home in time for supper.
> What a great day!!! When we saw 219kt ground speed going over to 9D9
> (Hastings, MI) at 7000, I knew we'd pay for it on the way home and we
> did...
> 30 knots right on the nose and when we got lower the bumps to go with the
> wind.

Yeah, after all the hoopla was over and the guests departed this morning, we
finally got to do some flying ourselves.

Only flew over to Amana for lunch, due to time constraints, but it sure felt
good to get that first grass-field landing of the year in. The food was
awesome (as always), but, wow, was the air rough! We never got above 3000
feet (it's only 18 miles away), and just got the snot kicked out of us. On
the ground, it was virtually calm all day -- and 73 degrees.

And my streak of great landings came to an abrupt end, too, with a thud.
Oh, well -- it couldn't last forever! (And we can re-use the plane, so it
wasn't *too* bad....)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

Awww man, you definitely topped me this weekend Jay!
But, for me and my family "what it's all about" is taking off after
breakfast, flying over the pond to see the in-laws the "other" cousins and
great-grandparents for lunch, then being home in time for supper.
What a great day!!! When we saw 219kt ground speed going over to 9D9
(Hastings, MI) at 7000, I knew we'd pay for it on the way home and we did...
30 knots right on the nose and when we got lower the bumps to go with the
wind.

Oh well, still a great day for all!
Jim

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Of course, when I'm standing ankle deep in sh*t, plunging an over-flowing
> toilet that's pouring into the suite, below, all cuz some bird-brain flushed
> one of our pens down the toilet, I try to remember all this...
> ;-)

Those must be REALLY BIG pens!!!

[Philip S.]

in article cK04e.21319$NW5.18860@attbi_s02, Jay Honeck at
wrote on 4/3/05 6:27 PM:

>> Sounds like you're enjoying the risk you took in venturing out into the
>> business beyond. I'm considering a job change into a new field and as a
>> freelancer. Feeling those same pangs of risk but hoping in a year I'm
>> enjoying some of the benefits as much as you seem to, Jay.
>
> Well, this is our third business, and by far the riskiest one.
>
> So far, however, I have to say that it's been a blast. Not very profitable,
> mind you (we're still pouring everything we make -- and more -- into the
> renovation), but it's just hard to imagine doing anything more fun than
> hanging out with pilots all day.
>
> Of course, when I'm standing ankle deep in sh*t, plunging an over-flowing
> toilet that's pouring into the suite, below, all cuz some bird-brain flushed
> one of our pens down the toilet, I try to remember all this...
>
> ;-)

Excuse me, but by "bird-brain" I'm sure you mean "customer"...

(Even though I agree with you--that is a pretty stupid thing to do).

[Morgans]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You realize, that WILL be deducted from your time in paradise!
>
> denny

No way! You get that time back, double!
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

>> Of course, when I'm standing ankle deep in sh*t, plunging an over-flowing
>> toilet that's pouring into the suite, below, all cuz some bird-brain
>> flushed one of our pens down the toilet, I try to remember all this...
>> ;-)
>
> Those must be REALLY BIG pens!!!

Actually, you'd be amazed how a pen can disable a toilet. A pen that gets
lodged sideways in the p-trap will get wrapped with toilet paper in a
heartbeat, followed by you-know-what.

I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Excuse me, but by "bird-brain" I'm sure you mean "customer"...

Actually, we don't have "customers" -- we have "guests"...

A subtle -- but important -- difference. Guests are expected to behave
themselves!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Theune]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Excuse me, but by "bird-brain" I'm sure you mean "customer"...
>
>
> Actually, we don't have "customers" -- we have "guests"...
>
> A subtle -- but important -- difference. Guests are expected to behave
> themselves!
>
> :-)

I think customers is a much better description of the people who stay at
your Inn. I know that I would be highly insulted if it were assumed I
would pay for my accomidations if I was a "Guest" of the owners. A
customer is certainly expected to behave as are any other person. You
may call them by any term you choose, but that does not change the
underlying relationship.

John

[W P Dixon]

Good Point John,
I have never charged a guest for a nights stay at my home. Wouldn't show
very much southern hospitality. You pay for a service, you are in deed a
customer. Hmmmm, maybe I could start charging the in-laws? ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[Jay Honeck]

> I think customers is a much better description of the people who stay at
> your Inn. I know that I would be highly insulted if it were assumed I
> would pay for my accomidations if I was a "Guest" of the owners. A
> customer is certainly expected to behave as are any other person. You may
> call them by any term you choose, but that does not change the underlying
> relationship.

It's all semantics, of course, but "guest" better implies the relationship
that we have with our "customers."

Remember, if we were trying to get rich, we sure as hell wouldn't be running
an aviation-themed, luxury suites hotel in Iowa City, IA. We do this
because we choose to, and our guests are here because we want them to be.

And because they want to be. See
http://alexisparkinn.com/what_others_are_saying_about_us.htm regarding this
phenomenon.

Bottom line: We have had overwhelming success treating our customers like
guests and friends. If only the hotels we visit would regard us in the same
way, I wouldn't leave them feeling so routinely ripped off and angry.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> You pay for a service, you are in deed a customer.

Would you say the same for a doctor's patients, a teacher's students, an
agent's clients? The word "customer" implies a different kind of
pecuniary relationship than the other words, and that includes "guest"
when applied to a hotel.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:12:58 GMT, Jose >
wrote in >::

>> You pay for a service, you are in deed a customer.
>
>Would you say the same for a doctor's patients, a teacher's students, an
>agent's clients? The word "customer" implies a different kind of
>pecuniary relationship than the other words, and that includes "guest"
>when applied to a hotel.

While all customers may be guests, not all guests are customers:


Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say about it:

Main Entry:customer
Pronunciation:*k*s-t*-m*r
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English custumer, from custume
Date:15th century

1 : one that purchases a commodity or service
2 : an individual usually having some specified distinctive trait
<a real tough customer>


Main Entry: guest
Pronunciation: *gest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gest, from Old Norse gestr; akin to Old
English giest guest, stranger, Latin hostis stranger, enemy
Date:13th century

1 a : a person entertained in one's house b : a person to whom
hospitality is extended c : a person who pays for the
services of an establishment (as a hotel or restaurant)
2 : an organism (as an insect) sharing the dwelling of another;
especially : INQUILINE
3 : a substance that is incorporated in a host substance
4 : a usually prominent person not a regular member of a cast or
organization who appears in a program or performance

[W P Dixon]

HAHAHA,
Jose you are a doctors customer,..that's why they spend as little time
with you as they can to keep charging that money! A teacher , that is a
tough one...not many 7 year olds pay their teachers but I suppose that makes
the parents the customers as there taxes pay the teachers salaries.

Patrick
..

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>Of course, when I'm standing ankle deep in sh*t, plunging an over-flowing
>>>toilet that's pouring into the suite, below, all cuz some bird-brain
>>>flushed one of our pens down the toilet, I try to remember all this...
>>>;-)
>>
>>Those must be REALLY BIG pens!!!
>
>
> Actually, you'd be amazed how a pen can disable a toilet. A pen that gets
> lodged sideways in the p-trap will get wrapped with toilet paper in a
> heartbeat, followed by you-know-what.
>
> I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

You need pens that are biodegradable... :-)

They might be hard to find, but it is probably even harder to avoid dumb
customers.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>I think customers is a much better description of the people who stay at
>>your Inn. I know that I would be highly insulted if it were assumed I
>>would pay for my accomidations if I was a "Guest" of the owners. A
>>customer is certainly expected to behave as are any other person. You may
>>call them by any term you choose, but that does not change the underlying
>>relationship.
>
>
> It's all semantics, of course, but "guest" better implies the relationship
> that we have with our "customers."

That is true for a hotel/motel, however, I still think of guest as being
someone who is staying free of charge. I realize the official legal
definition of guest includes both paying and nonpaying.

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> You need pens that are biodegradable... :-)
>
> They might be hard to find, but it is probably even harder to avoid dumb
> customers.

Yet another reason why your target market should always, always, ALWAYS be
pilots. I haven't met a dumb one, yet.

Some of our other guests, however....

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:%%94e.21789$NW5.13852@attbi_s02...
> Actually, you'd be amazed how a pen can disable a toilet. A pen that gets
> lodged sideways in the p-trap will get wrapped with toilet paper in a
> heartbeat, followed by you-know-what.

lol...

I'll bet there's lots of little facts like that, that you never would have
learned without owning a hotel, and which you probably wish you hadn't
learned. :)

[Jay Honeck]

> I'll bet there's lots of little facts like that, that you never would have
> learned without owning a hotel, and which you probably wish you hadn't
> learned. :)

Basic Hotel Rule #1: Indoor plumbing should never have been invented.

Well, if we could somehow eliminate gravity it would be okay, I suppose.
When you have 15 hot tub suites, many on the second and third floors, well,
let's just say I've got a good relationship with my drywaller.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose]

> Indoor plumbing should never have been invented.
> Well, if we could somehow eliminate gravity it would be okay

Thank you for the image of using a commode without the assistance of
gravity. :)

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Basic Hotel Rule #1: Indoor plumbing should never have been invented.
>
> Well, if we could somehow eliminate gravity it would be okay, I suppose.
> When you have 15 hot tub suites, many on the second and third floors, well,
> let's just say I've got a good relationship with my drywaller.

I spend a fair amount of my time these days trying to find and fix the origin of
second-floor leaks. I have come to the conclusion that the only solution would
be to install a water-proof membrane between floors. Sort of like an internal
roof with, of course, suitable drainage.

In the meantime, I make a fair amount of money replacing ceiling tiles, drywall,
and carpet.

George Patterson
Whosoever bloweth not his own horn, the same shall remain unblown.

[Grumman-581]

"George Patterson" wrote in message news:Hnz4e.5979$7b.5284@trndny01...
> I spend a fair amount of my time these days trying to find and fix the
origin of
> second-floor leaks. I have come to the conclusion that the only solution
would
> be to install a water-proof membrane between floors. Sort of like an
internal
> roof with, of course, suitable drainage.

First floor -- covered parking... Second floor -- occupied rooms... Plumbing
exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see where the leaks are
coming from (and not park your car in that spot)...

[Jay Honeck]

> First floor -- covered parking... Second floor -- occupied rooms...
> Plumbing
> exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see where the leaks
> are
> coming from (and not park your car in that spot)...

Great idea, until you factor in the increased liability insurance due to
fire and carbon-monoxide hazards.

And, of course, the fact that I'd have to completely re-build two
three-story buildings, losing over 1/3 of our suites in the process...

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Grumman-581 wrote:
>
> First floor -- covered parking... Second floor -- occupied rooms... Plumbing
> exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see where the leaks are
> coming from (and not park your car in that spot)...

Then you have to heat the parking garage. Not a viable solution here, and Iowa
is worse.

George Patterson
Whosoever bloweth not his own horn, the same shall remain unblown.

[Grumman-581]

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:%cQ4e.4498$df3.4052@attbi_s21...
> Great idea, until you factor in the increased liability insurance due to
> fire and carbon-monoxide hazards.

Concrete floors and pilars -- fireproof... Open walls instead of a closed
area -- no carbon monoxide hazard... This type of thing is done on the Gulf
Coast all the time as a way to keep the living quarters above the storm
surge during huricanes...

> And, of course, the fact that I'd have to completely re-build two
> three-story buildings, losing over 1/3 of our suites in the process...

Oh well... You can keep it in mind when you see one of those F5s heading
towards your hotel... <grin>

[Grumman-581]

"George Patterson" wrote in message news:wwU4e.253$ha3.51@trndny02...
> Then you have to heat the parking garage. Not a viable solution here, and
Iowa
> is worse.

Why? They don't have heated parking as it exists now...

[Dave Stadt]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
news:st15e.894$ci1.696@attbi_s71...
> "George Patterson" wrote in message news:wwU4e.253$ha3.51@trndny02...
> > Then you have to heat the parking garage. Not a viable solution here,
and
> Iowa
> > is worse.
>
> Why? They don't have heated parking as it exists now...


Because the suggestion was to leave the plumbing exposed. Exposed plumbing
in Iowa freezes in the winter.

[Klein]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:42:59 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>>I think customers is a much better description of the people who stay at
>>>your Inn. I know that I would be highly insulted if it were assumed I
>>>would pay for my accomidations if I was a "Guest" of the owners. A
>>>customer is certainly expected to behave as are any other person. You may
>>>call them by any term you choose, but that does not change the underlying
>>>relationship.
>>
>>
>> It's all semantics, of course, but "guest" better implies the relationship
>> that we have with our "customers."
>
>That is true for a hotel/motel, however, I still think of guest as being
>someone who is staying free of charge. I realize the official legal
>definition of guest includes both paying and nonpaying.

What do you call someone who is a passenger in your plane that shares
expenses with you? A guest, I think, and from Jay's description of
how his enterprise is going, the share-expense model may be closer to
the truth than hotelier/customer. ;-)

Klein

[George Patterson]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "George Patterson" wrote in message news:wwU4e.253$ha3.51@trndny02...
>
>>Then you have to heat the parking garage. Not a viable solution here, and
>
> Iowa
>
>>is worse.
>
>
> Why? They don't have heated parking as it exists now...

You said "Plumbing exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see where
the leaks are coming from (and not park your car in that spot)..." That means it
will freeze unless the parking area is heated.

George Patterson
Whosoever bloweth not his own horn, the same shall remain unblown.

[Montblack]

("George Patterson" wrote)
> You said "Plumbing exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see
> where the leaks are coming from (and not park your car in that spot)..."
> That means it will freeze unless the parking area is heated.


Not so much...

(First, if your spot is under the leak, that's where you will park - or take
it outside <g>)

We lived Downtown Minneapolis for 5 years (during that city's infamous mid
90's Murder-apolis run). 8 story apartment building was built in 1984. The
main floor had a single entrance 18 stall parking garage on one half and
office and "community" rooms on on the other half. Apartment units started
on the second floor. There was also a (bigger) basement garage that had its
own side entrance, it covered 3/4 of the building's footprint.

The building was brick faced over cinder block, with pre-stressed (hollow
core) concrete spans for the floors - like building a bridge. Solid building
is an understatement. There was also a steel skeleton.

We parked our 89 Probe in the garage on the first floor. Each parking
section was divided into 3 car spots, then an 18 ft long cinder block
dividing wall, then another 3 spots. I'm building thermal mass in my
description.

Around the cinder block wall from our car, in the next parking section over,
was a very large vent to the outside - I'm guessing 6 ft x 5 ft. Metal vent
slats - that's it. Basement garage had one too. It seemed like they were
always open a little. You could see outside, right through the main floor
vents, with only a bug screen to block the view.

Temp never got below freezing in there. We did an experiment in 1996 (-40
F/C in Minneapolis) We left a 16 ounce watter bottle on top of our car, most
of the winter, with an inch of water in it. It never froze - not over night,
not for 3 days at a time, never.

Getting back to the water pipes, yes they were exposed in the garage. A big
black drain pipe was in the front corner of our stall. Big water pipes were
exposed, plus a sprinkler system.

So my experience is buildings like this have been built and work just fine.
Thermal mass is my guess.


http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=235178
Our building is/was the one with the A/C wall units. Garage entrance is
about where the woman is walking. The basement garage ramp is just out of
the picture - to the right. This photo is the back of the building. From the
front door, it's 7 blocks to the center of downtown Mpls. At 5:07pm she'd be
home from work - having walked over the bridge where drivers were waiting,
backed up for blocks (1 car per green) to be allowed on the freeway for
their 40 minute commute home. <g>


Montblack

[George Patterson]

Montblack wrote:
> ("George Patterson" wrote)
>
>> You said "Plumbing exposed in the covered parking room so that you can
>> see
>> where the leaks are coming from (and not park your car in that spot)..."
>> That means it will freeze unless the parking area is heated.
>
> Not so much...

Having made a few hundred dollars this past winter repairing frozen pipes (one
of which was in the exterior wall of a well-heated apartment, the other of which
was in an interior wall of an attached garage), I stand by my statement. If you
don't heat it, the water pipes will freeze - not might freeze -- *will* freeze.

George Patterson
Whosoever bloweth not his own horn, the same shall remain unblown.

[Jay Honeck]

> Having made a few hundred dollars this past winter repairing frozen pipes
> (one of which was in the exterior wall of a well-heated apartment, the
> other of which was in an interior wall of an attached garage), I stand by
> my statement. If you don't heat it, the water pipes will freeze - not
> might freeze -- *will* freeze.

On Christmas day (of course) we had a water pipe freeze -- and burst --
inside the outer wall of a suite.

The guest -- a long-term university professor -- was out of town, and
thought she would "do us a favor" by turning her thermostat all the way
down, to "save us money."

The resulting fountain hit her bed, her clothing, and (of course) the suite
below. The outside temperature was right around zero degrees Fahrenheit.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Grumman-581]

"George Patterson" wrote in message news:6qk5e.275$1p4.29@trndny06...
> Having made a few hundred dollars this past winter repairing frozen pipes
(one
> of which was in the exterior wall of a well-heated apartment, the other of
which
> was in an interior wall of an attached garage), I stand by my statement.
If you
> don't heat it, the water pipes will freeze - not might freeze -- *will*
freeze.

So, you heat the pipes like they do on airliners and the fancy bizjets...

[Paul Sengupta]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> and another hanger mate, Justin
> Fishbaugh, showed off his just-completed (first flight: Next week!)
> Glasair III. Ten years in the building, it's an exquisite work of art.

Hi Jay (et al), sorry I've not been on here for ages, been too busy to
read this stuff in work these days!

Glad to hear that, and hope the first flight goes ok!

Paul

[AES]

In article <Ndn5e.12940$g65.435@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>
> On Christmas day (of course) we had a water pipe freeze -- and burst --
> inside the outer wall of a suite.
>
> The guest -- a long-term university professor -- was out of town, and
> thought she would "do us a favor" by turning her thermostat all the way
> down, to "save us money."
>

Since this is already OT and a similar incident is on my mind (and desk)
as I read it, I'll respond: Instead of a plane we have a Lake Tahoe
townhouse (about same price) which we haven't been able to go up to this
winter (medical hassles). The thermostat in our unit has a little
plastic dot glued on the thermostat so it _can't_ be moved below 55 deg,
but the starter gadget on the gas furnace failed; water line froze and
broke (outside and underneath fortunately); water ran downhill under
the snow and ice for over a month, unnoticed by neighbors or development
manager, until the meter reading people finally noticed: well over a
MILLION GALLONS lost.

My wife wrote a pleading letter in response to the resulting bill, and
the North Tahoe PUD was merciful: just opened their response, in which
they trim the total bill down to $1K total (most of the water went back
into the Lake anyway).

[Morgans]

"AES" > wrote

> My wife wrote a pleading letter in response to the resulting bill, and
> the North Tahoe PUD was merciful: just opened their response, in which
> they trim the total bill down to $1K total (most of the water went back
> into the Lake anyway).

That does not sound all that merciful. My parents had a waterline leak, and
their water co. lowered it to about $250.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

Paul! Man, we thought you had fallen off the planet. Glad you're
back!

Hope the Bulldog is running well?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

Ha! My water company would spit in my eye if I asked for money off of
a bill, for any reason.

And, with 15 jacuzzi hot tubs (re-filled at each use), an in-ground
sprinkler system, and a 24,000 gallon swimming pool, you can well
imagine that we're one of their, uh, better customers...

Worse yet, water here in Iowa City is triple the cost of water in my
home town of Racine, WI. Of course, being on the shores of Lake
Michigan may have had *something* to do with their cheaper rates...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Grumman-581]

"AES" wrote in message
...
> Since this is already OT and a similar incident is on my mind (and desk)
> as I read it, I'll respond: Instead of a plane we have a Lake Tahoe
> townhouse (about same price) which we haven't been able to go up to this
> winter (medical hassles). The thermostat in our unit has a little
> plastic dot glued on the thermostat so it _can't_ be moved below 55 deg,
> but the starter gadget on the gas furnace failed; water line froze and
> broke (outside and underneath fortunately); water ran downhill under
> the snow and ice for over a month, unnoticed by neighbors or development
> manager, until the meter reading people finally noticed: well over a
> MILLION GALLONS lost.

Why don't you just turn the water off to the condo when you're not there?

[AES]

In article <liD5e.3389$8Z6.3382@attbi_s21>,
"Grumman-581" > wrote:

> Why don't you just turn the water off to the condo when you're not there?

Not so easy -- valve is in an awkward place (condos are raised a few
feet above grade on cement sonotubes). Not so easy to tell renters or
friends using the place how to do it.

Pipes might still freeze and crack above the valve unless you drain the
system, which is even messier -- or below the valve but short of the
meter, which means you arrive to find a problem, even if it's not
necessarily your problem.

If it's going to get really cold, have to drain toilets, open all
faucets, put antifreeze in traps and so on as well.

Not sure what else prolonged severe cold might damage.

Best to just keep it at minimal temp.

[Morgans]

"AES" > wrote

> Best to just keep it at minimal temp.

Get a plumber, and have him run the water suppy up from where it comes in,
into a closet or under the sink, or what have you. The part of the pipe,
from where it come in up to the valve, could have heat wrap put on it.

By doing this, the pipes in the house might still freeze, but would not run
all over ruining things.

This somewhat easy fix could have saved you at least half a grand.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> Get a plumber, and have him run the water suppy up from where it comes in,
> into a closet or under the sink, or what have you. The part of the pipe,
> from where it come in up to the valve, could have heat wrap put on it.
>
> By doing this, the pipes in the house might still freeze, but would not
> run
> all over ruining things.
>
> This somewhat easy fix could have saved you at least half a grand.


Read this twice. Don't get what you're doing here?

Going to check my blood sugar levels....


Mtonblcak

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote

> Read this twice. Don't get what you're doing here?
>
> Going to check my blood sugar levels....

OK, you have a pipe freezing problem, only when it gets really, really cold.
House is unattended, and also used by guests that could never find the
cutoff, so if the pipes bust, the water is on, and it runs out a million
gallons; cost and damages.

Make the cutoff easy for the guests to get instructions to, such as "go in
the master bathroom, open the sink and turn off the big blue handle before
you leave." Then if pipes in the house bust, *that* pipe is busted, but no
huge damages. By repositioning the valve, getting the water shut off every
time is possible. Using the heat tape on the part of the pipe that is still
under pressure all of the time should give an extra bit of peace of mind,
that there will be no running water while it is left unattended.

I have a situation at my house, kinda like that, but not from freezing. To
shut off my water, I have to crawn on hands and knees about 20 feet. Seems
like I am always doing remodeling, or something, so I have to crawl in,
crawl out, do the work, crawl in, crawl out. With my back, that really
sucks. Some day, I'm going to put 20 feet of pipe on that sucker, and put
the valve where I can turn it off without crawling, then tap back into the
house system where there is a 3/4" line, not necessarly 20 feet all the way
back in there. As soon as I get a round tuit.

How's that? <g>

Really, drawing a picture takes the fun out of it. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Grumman-581" > writes:

> "George Patterson" wrote in message news:Hnz4e.5979$7b.5284@trndny01...
>> I spend a fair amount of my time these days trying to find and fix the
> origin of
>> second-floor leaks. I have come to the conclusion that the only solution
> would
>> be to install a water-proof membrane between floors. Sort of like an
> internal
>> roof with, of course, suitable drainage.
>
> First floor -- covered parking... Second floor -- occupied rooms... Plumbing
> exposed in the covered parking room so that you can see where the leaks are
> coming from (and not park your car in that spot)...

And so it can freeze in the winter.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[Allen]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "AES" > wrote
>
>> My wife wrote a pleading letter in response to the resulting bill, and
>> the North Tahoe PUD was merciful: just opened their response, in which
>> they trim the total bill down to $1K total (most of the water went back
>> into the Lake anyway).
>
> That does not sound all that merciful. My parents had a waterline leak,
> and
> their water co. lowered it to about $250.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

$1K is less than .001 cent per gallon. That's less than a penny per
thousand gallons. Sounds reasonable to me. (But I am not paying the bill
: ) )

Allen

[Grumman-581]

"W P Dixon" wrote in message ...
> Good Point John,
> I have never charged a guest for a nights stay at my home. Wouldn't show
> very much southern hospitality. You pay for a service, you are in deed a
> customer. Hmmmm, maybe I could start charging the in-laws? ;)

Nawh, just make 'em sleep on sleeper sofas ... That'll cut their visit
short...