Crazy Idea # 54-1A i.e. Erase all State Soaring Records every 10 years..

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Like Many others, every spring, I think about attempting some state records..
In my world that would be Colorado and Utah. Maybe NV.
So I look through the existing records and realize that there are none in Colorado I would have any chance of. Tom Serkowski, Dave Leonard and Bob Faris and others have set the bar so high, there all are basically unbeatable.
In Utah the bar is also set very very high. Same in Nevada.

So in the interest of promoting soaring, flying tasks, and getting more pilots involved to a higher level;

What you would think about erasing all STATE records every 10 years?

Everyone who has a State Certificate now ( I've got 2 ) would keep them, but we would just start anew, like the OLC does every year. This would create alot of work for the State Record Keepers, for sure, but it might be worth it to bolster interest in this exciting aspect of our dwindling sport.

Any one who has attempted a State Record knows what goes into it, alot really, and its easy to screw it up.

Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
Nick
T

[[email protected]]

👎

[gkemp]

>
> Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
> Nick
> T

I hold several state records in Utah still, and it is nice to still see them there after I retired from soaring 13 years ago. So I would have to say thumbs down.

[Daniel Sazhin[_2_]]

Hey Nick,

There are two ideas here. One is to reward people for pursuing declared tasks and giving them some degree of recognition. The other is erasing records..

Records are records for a reason. They are the official recorded limit of what has ever been done in a state, country, or the world. They just *are*. Erasing them does not change that someone has already done it at a certain performance!

That said, the idea that recognizing that a pilot for flying declared tasks (100km, 300km, 500km, 1000km triangles, 3tp flights, etc etc.) is a very reasonable idea. That's kind of the point of the badge program... but other organizations also have other additional elements or points of recognition.

If Record Keepers or the SSA was to provide a certificate for folks completing these kinds of flights, I think that has merit! They are great personal goals!

All the best,
Daniel

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 5:27:26 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Like Many others, every spring, I think about attempting some state records.
> In my world that would be Colorado and Utah. Maybe NV.
> So I look through the existing records and realize that there are none in Colorado I would have any chance of. Tom Serkowski, Dave Leonard and Bob Faris and others have set the bar so high, there all are basically unbeatable.
> In Utah the bar is also set very very high. Same in Nevada.
>
> So in the interest of promoting soaring, flying tasks, and getting more pilots involved to a higher level;
>
> What you would think about erasing all STATE records every 10 years?
>
> Everyone who has a State Certificate now ( I've got 2 ) would keep them, but we would just start anew, like the OLC does every year. This would create alot of work for the State Record Keepers, for sure, but it might be worth it to bolster interest in this exciting aspect of our dwindling sport.
>
> Any one who has attempted a State Record knows what goes into it, alot really, and its easy to screw it up.
>
> Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
> Nick
> T

OLC, or something like it, could very easily do just what you want.

Leave the state records alone please. Let those remain all time best performance in category. That has its place too.

T8

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 2:27:26 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Like Many others, every spring, I think about attempting some state records.
> In my world that would be Colorado and Utah. Maybe NV.
> So I look through the existing records and realize that there are none in Colorado I would have any chance of. Tom Serkowski, Dave Leonard and Bob Faris and others have set the bar so high, there all are basically unbeatable.
> In Utah the bar is also set very very high. Same in Nevada.
>
> So in the interest of promoting soaring, flying tasks, and getting more pilots involved to a higher level;
>
> What you would think about erasing all STATE records every 10 years?
>
> Everyone who has a State Certificate now ( I've got 2 ) would keep them, but we would just start anew, like the OLC does every year. This would create alot of work for the State Record Keepers, for sure, but it might be worth it to bolster interest in this exciting aspect of our dwindling sport.
>
> Any one who has attempted a State Record knows what goes into it, alot really, and its easy to screw it up.
>
> Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
> Nick
> T

We could give a Participation Award every time you try a record. Then the pilot that tried the most would get the record. Ha!!! Ha!!!

Richard

Richard

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Like Many others, every spring, I think about attempting some state records.
> In my world that would be Colorado and Utah. Maybe NV.
> So I look through the existing records and realize that there are none in Colorado I would have any chance of. Tom Serkowski, Dave Leonard and Bob Faris and others have set the bar so high, there all are basically unbeatable.
> In Utah the bar is also set very very high. Same in Nevada.
>
> So in the interest of promoting soaring, flying tasks, and getting more pilots involved to a higher level;
>
> What you would think about erasing all STATE records every 10 years?
>
> Everyone who has a State Certificate now ( I've got 2 ) would keep them, but we would just start anew, like the OLC does every year. This would create alot of work for the State Record Keepers, for sure, but it might be worth it to bolster interest in this exciting aspect of our dwindling sport.
>
> Any one who has attempted a State Record knows what goes into it, alot really, and its easy to screw it up.
>
> Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
> Nick
> T

Nick,

I once proposed the US adopt the BGA Ladder system. It has morphed a bit since then, but poke around this site.
https://www.bgaladder.net/

I suspect we might have to include a regional filter.

Unlike OLC, a pilot would actually have to belong to a club/chapter to post for it.

I doubt SSA will change the State Record system, other than to possibly change the record submission process.

Frank Whiteley

[Tony[_5_]]

Kansas Soaring Association awards annual travelling trophies for.many of the state record categories especially the 100,200,300 km o/r or triangle speed, as well as the best distance flight of the year (closed or free). This way even if we don't have a state record year, we still have something to fly for.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Ok
Thanks for the good responses.
I'm just trying Ideas to keep existing pilots engaged in the sport.
Somehow.
What about this idea.
At the end of the year the magazine lists all the best scores in the various categories of record attempts? State by State.
There's so little that's interesting now in the magazine and so much "filler crap" that I'm sure the Mag could spare a few pages for these top record attempt flights being listed.
I mean they burn pages every month in the Milestone column of pilots we will NEVER see again.
And those couple of monthly columns that I can't even read their so bad/boring.
Good Idea? Or too much work?
Anybody else got ANY ideas? Anybody?
Nick
T

[Brian[_1_]]

We have a couple traveling trophies. I recommend you establish one or more of your own. Then you can challenge yourself to not have someone else take it away from you. Perhaps talk to your SSA State Governor or Record keeper about it.

We have a 300km FAI triangle Speed trophy, who ever does it the fastest get there name on the trophy and gets the trophy to display for a year.

We also have an annual Goal flight trophy, Our SSA State Governor set a couple goal flights. Everyone who completes the goal flight gets there name on the trophy.

[Daniel Sazhin[_2_]]

Hey Richard,

I actually wouldn't mind a "participation trophy" for someone who completes a declared task.

I think that a person who declares and completes a 300km FAI triangle on a given day did a more meaningful flight than a fellow does an undeclared 400km yo-yo on OLC.

Don't get me wrong, I love OLC. I love competitions. I love records. All have their place in our sport.

That said, the emphasis on declared tasks has diminished somewhat. And if we recognized them, rewarded them, maybe more folks would do them and derive the satisfaction of flying to chosen places.

And I think that would be a great thing.

All the best,
Daniel

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Daniel
Thank you for the coherent response, it was on target.
Brian
Thats a good Idea for a trophy like that for Colorado
I may get that going.
Best Regards
Nick
T

[5Z]

As Daniel says, flying a declared flight is a worthwhile goal and should be rewarded with some recognition.

With computers and the internet, processing a large volume of flights really isn't an issue. A state record keeper should be able to handle "non-record" flights without too much trouble, especially since it would really just be to unofficially validate the flight. We could then have a reset at any time for these lesser, but still significant flights. Many more pilots will be able to participate since each year they have a chance to be #1 for a particular task.

Everyone - pilots, OOs, and record keepers will be kept up to date on the process. So when a new record is actually flown, everyone will be in practice.

The whole process could even be automated with online submission. Just need someone to keep an eye on it and deal with bad or problem claims by either pushing them through or providing feedback to the pilot and OO.

5Z

I set a few youth records in AZ back in 1979 and they're still there! Actually, it looks like no much new action there since the 1980's. Lots of empty slots.

[Eric Bick (DY)]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 6:55:40 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Ok
> Thanks for the good responses.
> I'm just trying Ideas to keep existing pilots engaged in the sport.
> Somehow.
> What about this idea.
> At the end of the year the magazine lists all the best scores in the various categories of record attempts? State by State.
> There's so little that's interesting now in the magazine and so much "filler crap" that I'm sure the Mag could spare a few pages for these top record attempt flights being listed.
> I mean they burn pages every month in the Milestone column of pilots we will NEVER see again.
> And those couple of monthly columns that I can't even read their so bad/boring.
> Good Idea? Or too much work?
> Anybody else got ANY ideas? Anybody?
> Nick
> T

Nick. Interesting sidebar you introduced re Soaring mag - certainly rang my bell - and I feel a need to make some comments.

You wrote some pretty interesting articles comparing gliders, I thought. Provide me with more specifics and ideas. The magazine is based on SSA members' and others' inputs. In general, if someone takes the time and makes the effort to write an article, then I suspect it is of interest to others as well - not necessarily everyone - but to many members.

If most of the magazine is not interesting, I'm not doing my job - and I'd like to get input along those lines. Part of the advice I was given when taking on the job as editor was: "You can please some of the members some of the time, but not all of the members all of the time." So I don't aim to please everyone all the time, but most members should find parts of the magazine of interest most of the time. If this isn't the case, I need to know.

One of my big challenges is getting people to take on the commitment of writing monthly columns, or sending in any articles at all. Dr. Johnson, after writing "Soaring Rx" for years, decided to take care of other aspects of his life. I've asked multiple times for someone to pick up this important topic, but no volunteers. Same for "Soaring Weather." We could reprint past articles, but our knowledge of aviation medicine and weather forecasting has evolved rapidly, and I'd like to get fresh articles on a regular basis. There are other examples of articles I think would be great, but no takers to write them despite my several requests. For example, how about a monthly column on the latest avionics gadgets? Or articles by reps or factories on their newest gliders? I've begged for such with almost no responses.

Taking out "Milestones," I suspect, would raise a ruckus like I've never heard, but I am interested in inputs on that (or any other aspect of the magazine) as to interest or not. "Milestones" is about those who achieve (just like record holders or would-be record holders), and about who is providing training to newbies. Hence, we're introducing in the May issue a graph (in "Milestones") that shows a comparison between soaring sites (FBO and clubs) as to which are training newbies. Maybe this is the wrong way to go - I am open to inputs.

Part of my job is to keep trying things to see what works with readers or not, but I get very few direct inputs about content (so I appreciate what you say). We work entirely on voluntary submitting of articles (there is no staff, paid or volunteer, assigned to write articles). Each year, I have provided, in the magazine, a list of topics I think would be of interest to members, if someone will write them. Those who have better ideas of what should be in Soaring mag might sit down and write those interesting articles and send them in - or send an email to me with ideas ). It is your/SSA's magazine, and it will be as interesting as members make it.

I will also vote that records are records, and the challenge is to break them. I think the articles we ran on the decline of badge and record soaring hit on some of the issues regarding this. The May issue will have some responses to the articles. Any ideas to spur interest in this aspect of soaring should be welcome and explored.

Some records might not be attainable to the average Joe/Jane pilot (think Perlan), but that doesn't prevent anyone from trying. If anyone goes the club or state route for trophies or certificates of recognition, note that we have a "Club Corner" section of the magazine is available for publishing achievements or approaches by different clubs - no problem to expand this.

I welcome suggestions for magazine content.Just need people to sit down and send them in. If someone has an idea for a magazine department along these lines, or other topics, let me know.

[Ventus_a]

;1017571']Ok
Thanks for the good responses.
I'm just trying Ideas to keep existing pilots engaged in the sport.
Somehow.
What about this idea.
At the end of the year the magazine lists all the best scores in the various categories of record attempts? State by State.
There's so little that's interesting now in the magazine and so much "filler crap" that I'm sure the Mag could spare a few pages for these top record attempt flights being listed.
I mean they burn pages every month in the Milestone column of pilots we will NEVER see again.
And those couple of monthly columns that I can't even read their so bad/boring.
Good Idea? Or too much work?
Anybody else got ANY ideas? Anybody?
Nick
T

Hi Nick

I gotta think that recognizing best performances in the preceeding year is a way to meet your original intent, that is giving people something to shoot for/bragging rights.

Certainly where I come from there are big obstacles to doing things in as free a fashion as in years gone by (airspace restrictions is a big one) but recognizing and encouraging best performances and record attempts can only be to the betterment and advancement of soaring.

It's great to be having this discussion

:-) Colin

[[email protected]]

Thanks Eric.

I've always hoped there would be articles written about maintenance on gliders. Mx articles can spell out differences in standard and experimental certificated aircraft and who can do what kind of work in incuding reference and documentation requirements.

I hear alot of owners making comments that the think they can do whatever they want to their experimental because after all, its experimental.

Many ship owners and club members could benefit from this type of information to increase safety and compliance to federal requirements.

There are many paths articles could explore concerning maintenace.

When I suggested this subject years ago the response I recieved was just as you commented above,
Great start writing for us.

I'm not much of a writer, barely passed english classes in high school.

Perhaps there have been such articles on this subject and I've missed them.

[[email protected]]

Thanks Eric

I responded to your comments but then deleted it due to thread drift.

Maybe a new topic regarding magazine articles would be beneficial.

I'll email my thoughts to you.

Joe

[Dan Marotta]

I'm reminded of the "string board" we had on the wall at Black Forest
Soaring Society back in the '90s.Â* At the end of the day, if one was
proud of his flight, he'd stick pins in the wall map and connect them
with a piece of string.Â* Everyone could see it, admire it, rag on it,
get ideas, set goals for next weekend, etc.Â* It was fun, but there were
no extra chicks.

If you want money and chicks, you should take up golf.Â* It worked for
Tiger, didn't it?

On 4/18/2020 9:55 PM, 5Z wrote:
> As Daniel says, flying a declared flight is a worthwhile goal and should be rewarded with some recognition.
>
> With computers and the internet, processing a large volume of flights really isn't an issue. A state record keeper should be able to handle "non-record" flights without too much trouble, especially since it would really just be to unofficially validate the flight. We could then have a reset at any time for these lesser, but still significant flights. Many more pilots will be able to participate since each year they have a chance to be #1 for a particular task.
>
> Everyone - pilots, OOs, and record keepers will be kept up to date on the process. So when a new record is actually flown, everyone will be in practice.
>
> The whole process could even be automated with online submission. Just need someone to keep an eye on it and deal with bad or problem claims by either pushing them through or providing feedback to the pilot and OO.
>
> 5Z
>
> I set a few youth records in AZ back in 1979 and they're still there! Actually, it looks like no much new action there since the 1980's. Lots of empty slots.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 5:27:26 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Like Many others, every spring, I think about attempting some state records.
> In my world that would be Colorado and Utah. Maybe NV.
> So I look through the existing records and realize that there are none in Colorado I would have any chance of. Tom Serkowski, Dave Leonard and Bob Faris and others have set the bar so high, there all are basically unbeatable.
> In Utah the bar is also set very very high. Same in Nevada.
>
> So in the interest of promoting soaring, flying tasks, and getting more pilots involved to a higher level;
>
> What you would think about erasing all STATE records every 10 years?
>
> Everyone who has a State Certificate now ( I've got 2 ) would keep them, but we would just start anew, like the OLC does every year. This would create alot of work for the State Record Keepers, for sure, but it might be worth it to bolster interest in this exciting aspect of our dwindling sport.
>
> Any one who has attempted a State Record knows what goes into it, alot really, and its easy to screw it up.
>
> Thumb up or thumbs down on this idea?
> Nick
> T

Records are records. They reflect the best ever done and set a new goal.
Want to compare performances on a shorter term basis?
Use OLC. That is what it does, and does it well.
Lever B
UH

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

OK
The reason I'm pursuing this is to purely promote soaring, thats it, period.

People get bored and drop out as we know. I Want to try and slow that trend down.

How about this idea, State record keepers may not like it because its going to make a bunch of extra work for them, BUT..

How about in January of every year in soaring we publish the best flight in every current state record categorey, O&R's, Triangle speed, and then all those Distance awards. For each state.
Theres so much crap in Soaring now, IMHO, I'm sure they could free up the space.

That way it could keep pilots, like me, engaged by attempting ALOT more tasks, which is a challenge, easy to do and fun. Finishing any declared task is a blast.
Maybe we should start by polling the current state record keepers if they are up to this extra work.
What do you guys think?
Good Idea? or another lead balloon?
Nick
T

[John Foster]

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 3:55:50 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> OK
> The reason I'm pursuing this is to purely promote soaring, thats it, period.
>
> People get bored and drop out as we know. I Want to try and slow that trend down.
>
> How about this idea, State record keepers may not like it because its going to make a bunch of extra work for them, BUT..
>
> How about in January of every year in soaring we publish the best flight in every current state record categorey, O&R's, Triangle speed, and then all those Distance awards. For each state.
> Theres so much crap in Soaring now, IMHO, I'm sure they could free up the space.
>
> That way it could keep pilots, like me, engaged by attempting ALOT more tasks, which is a challenge, easy to do and fun. Finishing any declared task is a blast.
> Maybe we should start by polling the current state record keepers if they are up to this extra work.
> What do you guys think?
> Good Idea? or another lead balloon?
> Nick
> T

I have no issue with a "best flight in X category" THIS YEAR. But a record is a record, and if you want to beat it, then you need to have all your ducks in a row. Otherwise, it's meaningless.

[[email protected]]

But a record is a record, and if you want to beat it, then you need to have all your ducks in a row. Otherwise, it's meaningless.

Sorry, Nick, but I agree. What would it be like to erase all of the speed records set by the X-15, SR-71 and other legendary aircraft, simply because they haven't been surpassed recently?

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

John and Mark
Did you guys take the time to read my latest's post?
I'm suggesting keeping track of a Yearly Best and print those up in Soaring
Thats it
Nick
T

[[email protected]]

Sorry, Nick. I guess I was still fixating on the "Erase all State Records every 10 years" title of the thread.

Best of the Year sounds doable and desirable, but the requirements simply cannot be as stringent as an actual record declaration and claim. They are onerous enough, and I know of several Moriarty pilots who have actually applied for State records, with no satisfactory results. Either the record keepers are unwilling to process the claim, or too much time elapses and the claim gets rejected because of the time constraints.

[John Foster]

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 6:39:56 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> John and Mark
> Did you guys take the time to read my latest's post?
> I'm suggesting keeping track of a Yearly Best and print those up in Soaring
> Thats it
> Nick
> T

With all due respect, Nick, I thought I responded to your suggestion, stating "I have no issue with a "best flight in X category" THIS YEAR." Maybe I misunderstood you, or maybe I didn't communicate clearly what I was trying to say. In any event, I have no objection to people keeping track of highest altitude, or longest flight, or fastest flight, etc. etc. each year, or even printing these in Soaring Magazine, as long as there is someone willing to do all the work of validating the claims every year. It would even be interesting to see trends from year to year. But a true record is something different, I believe. It is an all-time achievement that stands until someone else betters it. To erase the record diminishes the accomplishment.. The only reason to erase a record is if information comes to light that it was achieved by some deceit or cheating--like Lance Armstrong and his 7 TdF wins. Sorry if I mis-understood you.

[RR]

Nick, my recomendation is for you to set up such a competition within your state, or region, and run it. The results are not records, but best flights in category and class. Decide in advance what you are going to include for tasks, to keep the workload reasonable. No need to involve official record keepers unless a record is broken in the process. Publish in your state, or here. But the idea of all 50 states, publishing all best flights in all categories and classes will dilute what your trying to achieve.

As a record keeper, I don't have much interest in spending a lot of time processing a flight that I know is not going to achieve record performance.

Rick

[Morgan[_2_]]

Trying to find ways to motivate people to stay active and involved is a significant challenge.

The Pacific Soaring Council has a number of awards that you could replicate for your state or region.

https://www.pacificsoaring.org/awards/awards.html

Fair warning, I don't think these produce a lot of motivation. If it wasn't for Ramy doing all of the OLC analysis, I'm not sure too many people would even notice if they disappeared.

We also had to modify the rules. Basically Ramy's fault. Some awards have limits on how many times they can be won. Otherwise it's just the Ramy show at awards time. Total distance awards skew towards people with the skills and time available to fly long distances and lots of days.

Our club has a number of fun annual awards which are great for a good end of season presentation and light ribbing at the local level.

Good luck,

Morgan

[Z15]

Nick,

I know your also interested in straight out opportunities, perhaps a Soaring Record version similar to what Bob Maronde uses for tracking the Straight Out Cross Country Results? Its simple, informal, effective, and most important gets sent out in a timely fashion when there are updates. The last item being an unavoidable problem with the 1-2 month print delay with any magazine. The down side is most people have no idea it exists having only found it myself when researching straight out soaring ideas, so I think the big challenge would be getting the word out. Maybe at that point SSA can pick up the individual record story. All I can say is the Newsletter email "Gets my attention" when it shows up in my inbox. Anyway, just a thought and trying to help.

Bryce

On Tuesday, May 19, 2020 at 11:32:54 AM UTC-7, Morgan wrote:
> Trying to find ways to motivate people to stay active and involved is a significant challenge.
>
> The Pacific Soaring Council has a number of awards that you could replicate for your state or region.
>
> https://www.pacificsoaring.org/awards/awards.html
>
> Fair warning, I don't think these produce a lot of motivation. If it wasn't for Ramy doing all of the OLC analysis, I'm not sure too many people would even notice if they disappeared.
>
> We also had to modify the rules. Basically Ramy's fault. Some awards have limits on how many times they can be won. Otherwise it's just the Ramy show at awards time. Total distance awards skew towards people with the skills and time available to fly long distances and lots of days.
>
> Our club has a number of fun annual awards which are great for a good end of season presentation and light ribbing at the local level.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Morgan