Time for Separate 18m Records?

[Roy B.]

Friends:
I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
ROY

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> Friends:
> I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
> I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
> ROY

I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob

[MNLou]

I agree with a separate 18m class.

Lou - full disclosure - LAK17AT 18m

[krasw]

On Monday, 20 April 2020 15:50:18 UTC+3, Roy B. wrote:
> Friends:
> I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
> I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
> ROY

FAI: no it has not. Too many records, too many classes, they just inflate the whole idea. You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:45:25 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > Friends:
> > I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
> > I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
> > ROY
>
> I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob

I am really going to get flamed on this one, but I would love to see the legacy 15 meter birds get folded into sports/club and just have STD, 18 meter, 20 meter two place and open. I think if the sport supported standard class and 18 meter class there would be enough difference in price to help attract and keep new pilots. Just a thought and since I can't think of a pure 15 meter bird being produced now, why keep the 15 meter class?

[Phil Jeffery[_2_]]

At 12:50 20 April 2020, Roy B. wrote:
>Friends:
>I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether
>the=
> FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a
>separ=
>ate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very
>popu=
>lar, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged
with
>=
>standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open
>Clas=
>s performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of
>that=
> class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class
>i=
>s succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do
>any=
> national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record
>categor=
>y? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there
>reaso=
>ns to not do it?
>I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
>ROY
>

Roy, a laudable suggestion. It's chances of success can best be judged by
looking at what gliders, if any, the FAI board members own and sometimes
actually fly. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and/or July 4th
celebrations!

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 1:01:52 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 6:45:25 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:50:18 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > Friends:
> > > I thought that it would be interesting to start a discussion on whether the FAI and different countries should begin to recognize 18 meters as a separate category for distance and speed records. The class has become very popular, even more popular than was the 15m class when those were merged with standard class for records, and there is such a wide variation in Open Class performance today that 18 meters is a bit disadvantaged as a part of that class. Many 18 meter gliders are being build and sold now and the class is succeeding more so than some separate classes that are recognized. Do any national organizations now recognize 18 meter as a separate record category? The USA does not. Has the FAI considered this recently? Are there reasons to not do it?
> > > I don't recall a previous post on this subject, was there?
> > > ROY
> >
> > I do not fly 18 meters, Yet!!! I do think that the 18 meter class should be in a class by itself for record distance and speed flights. Bob
>
> I am really going to get flamed on this one, but I would love to see the legacy 15 meter birds get folded into sports/club and just have STD, 18 meter, 20 meter two place and open. I think if the sport supported standard class and 18 meter class there would be enough difference in price to help attract and keep new pilots. Just a thought and since I can't think of a pure 15 meter bird being produced now, why keep the 15 meter class?

It's pretty common for people to be willing to scrap the class they don't fly.
15 is the class that has the largest number of ships with relative parity.
UH

[Roy B.]

Hello Kristian:

You wrote,
"You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else".

Perhaps you can fly as fast - But I am not sure that you can fly as far. But the same statement can be made about speed in a 15m glider compared to an 18m glider in strong conditions.

But, to your point, I've wondered why someone would pay all that extra money for an EB-29 if they can get the same performance from an 18m glider costing very much less?

The fact of too many classes is a separate problem - not a reason to exclude a deserving new class. Perhaps some existing classes should be discontinued or consolidated.

ROY

[[email protected]]

I agree Roy. Since the FAI already recognise the 18m, 15m Standard and Open classes for competitions there would seem to be no major reason not to recognise it as an additional class for records. A few extra claims to adjudicate perhaps but their costs would presumably be met by claim fees.

[Tim Taylor]

18M Pilots are the millennials of soaring. First they are compensating for inadequacies, then they all want gold stars, and to be told they are special. Now they want a records category of their own. Is there no end to the coddling we have to give these pilots that are so handicapped they need 3 extra meters of wingspan?




*This is sarcasm ;-)

[Roy B.]

Tim Taylor wrote:
> 18M Pilots are the millennials of soaring.

OK, Boomer

ROY

[This also is sarcasm]

[Tango Eight]

> why keep the 15 meter class?

Okay, fine. I can be bought. You 18m guys float me a JS-3, I won't make fun of you.

Deal?

<eyes rolling... not certain I can hold up my end...>

T8

[Tony[_5_]]

Aren't pretty much all 18m gliders convertible into either 15 or 21m? Except for early JS-1A and ASH-26E? So I think the argument could be made that owners of top of the line 18m gliders already have gliders that are eligible for records in the established classes

[[email protected]]

If were gonna rei-engineer records, Id rather redo all the records according to L/D. Lets say 3 groups: under 28/1, 29-40, above 40 etc. The wingspan don’t mean much when comparing most ships nowadays. A minilak at 13..5 meters can outfly an 18 m open cirrus. And lumping that same mini lak in with a 1-26 isn’t right either lol.
Dan

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:58:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> If were gonna rei-engineer records, Id rather redo all the records according to L/D. Lets say 3 groups: under 28/1, 29-40, above 40 etc. The wingspan don’t mean much when comparing most ships nowadays. A minilak at 13.5 meters can outfly an 18 m open cirrus. And lumping that same mini lak in with a 1-26 isn’t right either lol.
> Dan

AFAIK the world record distance in 13.5m is currently held by a 1-26.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Tony
So easy

Sawzall!

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 3:13:50 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > why keep the 15 meter class?
>
> Okay, fine. I can be bought. You 18m guys float me a JS-3, I won't make fun of you.
>
> Deal?
>
> <eyes rolling... not certain I can hold up my end...>
>
> T8

I only make fun of all gliders with motors, Motorglider guys and gals should be ashamed.

[[email protected]]

Motorglider
Jumbo shrimp
Miltary Intelligence

Can you say "Oxymoron?"

[[email protected]]

LOL Mark! too true :)

[[email protected]]

Yep Moshe and that is definitely an accomplishment, wat to go Daniel.

[krasw]

On Monday, 20 April 2020 20:53:51 UTC+3, Roy B. wrote:
> Hello Kristian:
>
> You wrote,
> "You can fly as fast with modern 18m class glider as anything else".
>
> Perhaps you can fly as fast - But I am not sure that you can fly as far. But the same statement can be made about speed in a 15m glider compared to an 18m glider in strong conditions.
>
> But, to your point, I've wondered why someone would pay all that extra money for an EB-29 if they can get the same performance from an 18m glider costing very much less?
>
> The fact of too many classes is a separate problem - not a reason to exclude a deserving new class. Perhaps some existing classes should be discontinued or consolidated.
>
> ROY

If you look at current world records, these are all flown in exceptional weather (Argentinian wave or Namibian desert thermals) where long wings are really not an advantage. Yes you can fly longer with EB-29 in European weak day, but then you are not flying a record.

Discontinuing class is more or less unprecedented in FAI history (which is a shame).

In my opinion, the 15m/Open is simple way of doing things. 13.5m is just historical burden of massively failed class that should have no record category or competition class.

I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference.

[Roy B.]

Kristian:
I think that you are correct about the world records - but more pilots (who cannot afford to go to Namibia or Argentina) are interested in national records for their country - and in those countries the difference between 18m and 27m is important.

And on your last point, "I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference" I agree completely. With a motor available, it is a different sport.

Best regards
ROY

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 21 April 2020 14:29:09 UTC+3, Roy B. wrote:
> Kristian:
> I think that you are correct about the world records - but more pilots (who cannot afford to go to Namibia or Argentina) are interested in national records for their country - and in those countries the difference between 18m and 27m is important.
>

But you can do what ever you like with national records, you don't need FAI for that.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 7:29:09 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> Kristian:
> I think that you are correct about the world records - but more pilots (who cannot afford to go to Namibia or Argentina) are interested in national records for their country - and in those countries the difference between 18m and 27m is important.
>
> And on your last point, "I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference" I agree completely. With a motor available, it is a different sport.
>
> Best regards
> ROY

With a motor available it is an entirely different approach to sticking your neck out on a limb. Many times I cross the state and late in the afternoon must combat a headwind and declining conditions. I get back home, close my triangle and sit down and have a cold brew! Have I ever not made it back home, YES. Not to knock the guys and gals with motorgliders, although I do poke a bit of fun at them over the radio. I will call on the radio and ask if any of you guys at Seminole are flying your motorgliders? They usually laugh and say yes, they do have a good sense of humor!

[[email protected]]

“13.5m is just historical burden of massively failed class that should have no record category or competition class”

Well thats a slap in the face to all us guys flying them! Stick you ass in one of these short wing birds and set a record before you condemn the whole class.

If guys are worried that state, national, and world records are no longer attainable without oudles of money or super ships look at the 13 meter record lists, there are many areas where a person of meager means can chase records specially at the state level..

Dan
Holder of 6 13n records

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:29:57 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 7:29:09 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > Kristian:
> > I think that you are correct about the world records - but more pilots (who cannot afford to go to Namibia or Argentina) are interested in national records for their country - and in those countries the difference between 18m and 27m is important.
> >
> > And on your last point, "I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference" I agree completely. With a motor available, it is a different sport.
> >
> > Best regards
> > ROY
>
> With a motor available it is an entirely different approach to sticking your neck out on a limb. Many times I cross the state and late in the afternoon must combat a headwind and declining conditions. I get back home, close my triangle and sit down and have a cold brew! Have I ever not made it back home, YES. Not to knock the guys and gals with motorgliders, although I do poke a bit of fun at them over the radio. I will call on the radio and ask if any of you guys at Seminole are flying your motorgliders? They usually laugh and say yes, they do have a good sense of humor!

"With a motor available it is an entirely different approach to sticking your neck out on a limb." I find that pilots who believe this are nearly all ones who do not frequently (if ever) fly cross country in a motorglider, and are therefore speaking from ignorance. Sticking your neck out on a limb by depending on a motor is self limiting activity as even many time world champions have recently found out. It is a convenience, not a safety tool. As a convenience does it contribute to longer flights? It can, because the inconvenience of a retrieve is less of a consideration. So if you want your record attempts to be convenient and easy, either buy a motorglider or hire a full retrieve crew (the latter will cost you less).

I have asked this before without response: produce an example of a record owned by a motorglider that was achieved by flying too low over unlandable terrain. If you cannot, then you have no argument.

That should get this thread well hijacked! :-)

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 7:34:19 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 8:29:57 AM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 7:29:09 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > Kristian:
> > > I think that you are correct about the world records - but more pilots (who cannot afford to go to Namibia or Argentina) are interested in national records for their country - and in those countries the difference between 18m and 27m is important.
> > >
> > > And on your last point, "I would actually like to acknowledge records made with pure glider. Now there is a difference" I agree completely. With a motor available, it is a different sport.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > > ROY
> >
> > With a motor available it is an entirely different approach to sticking your neck out on a limb. Many times I cross the state and late in the afternoon must combat a headwind and declining conditions. I get back home, close my triangle and sit down and have a cold brew! Have I ever not made it back home, YES. Not to knock the guys and gals with motorgliders, although I do poke a bit of fun at them over the radio. I will call on the radio and ask if any of you guys at Seminole are flying your motorgliders? They usually laugh and say yes, they do have a good sense of humor!
>
> "With a motor available it is an entirely different approach to sticking your neck out on a limb." I find that pilots who believe this are nearly all ones who do not frequently (if ever) fly cross country in a motorglider, and are therefore speaking from ignorance. Sticking your neck out on a limb by depending on a motor is self limiting activity as even many time world champions have recently found out. It is a convenience, not a safety tool. As a convenience does it contribute to longer flights? It can, because the inconvenience of a retrieve is less of a consideration. So if you want your record attempts to be convenient and easy, either buy a motorglider or hire a full retrieve crew (the latter will cost you less).
>
> I have asked this before without response: produce an example of a record owned by a motorglider that was achieved by flying too low over unlandable terrain. If you cannot, then you have no argument.
>
> That should get this thread well hijacked! :-)

Not really. The most important thing is confidence. Having a motor improves confidence.
For the original question make all the records brand and model specific. Problem solved.

[Roy B.]

Jfitch wrote:
"produce an example of a record owned by a motorglider that was achieved by flying too low over unlandable terrain. If you cannot, then you have no argument."

The reason for no response is that this is a false challenge. The issue is not safety nor flying over unlandable terrain. The availability of a motor is a risk management tool. It helps the pilot manage much more than just safety risks. It allows for management of land out risk, risk of adverse decision in crossing large overcast areas or potentially unworkable blue areas, risk of delay by flying into loss of convection, risk of overnight retrieves and other non dangerous risks. The pure glider pilot has only his or her wits to manage those risks and no other tool if they are wrong - and so they make more conservative decisions. But they are not "safer" decisions. That is why I say that availability of a motor makes it a different sport.

I concede that in good conditions close to home there is very little difference between having a motor and not. The difference arises when you are far from home and faced with a decision that might put you on the ground. The fellow with the motor has a tool that makes that decision much less consequential. This is why I believe that the records should be different categories.

ROY

[[email protected]]

Anybody arguing for or against motorgliders as a "safety" solution or "risk management tool" when flying over ANY terrain except an actual airport with suitable runway access needs to see Dave Nadler's presentation at the 2020 SSA Convention on motorglider reliability REALITY.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R--m0NDR0j8

Many thanks to Dave, one of the most experienced motorglider enthusiasts, but a realist above all.

Also, thanks for his eye-opening analysis of a catastrophic in-flight emergency that resulted in a dual bailout and crash in a remote area. The video explaining his experience and its aftermath should be required viewing for all aspiring (and current) cross-country pilots. It definitely reorganized my thinking!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8I3A3dqsu0

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 5:46:47 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> Jfitch wrote:
> "produce an example of a record owned by a motorglider that was achieved by flying too low over unlandable terrain. If you cannot, then you have no argument."
>
> The reason for no response is that this is a false challenge. The issue is not safety nor flying over unlandable terrain. The availability of a motor is a risk management tool. It helps the pilot manage much more than just safety risks. It allows for management of land out risk, risk of adverse decision in crossing large overcast areas or potentially unworkable blue areas, risk of delay by flying into loss of convection, risk of overnight retrieves and other non dangerous risks. The pure glider pilot has only his or her wits to manage those risks and no other tool if they are wrong - and so they make more conservative decisions. But they are not "safer" decisions. That is why I say that availability of a motor makes it a different sport.
>
> I concede that in good conditions close to home there is very little difference between having a motor and not. The difference arises when you are far from home and faced with a decision that might put you on the ground. The fellow with the motor has a tool that makes that decision much less consequential. This is why I believe that the records should be different categories.
>
> ROY

"The issue is not safety nor flying over unlandable terrain. The availability of a motor is a risk management tool." Your premise then is that a motorglider makes record attempts more convenient and therefore easier. There is no doubt about this. However there are MANY things that make record attempts more convenient and easier: the availability of a full time crew, higher performance gliders (even in the same class), the proximity of good soaring terrain to your home, independent wealth, etc. A motor is not the only - or even foremost - difference. So if you want the granularity of motors introduced to records, then several other differentiators should come at the same time, or even first. No one would suggest that it is easier to set a 15m record in a PIK20E vs. a JS-3 because it has a motor.

I've no problem with increasing the granularity of records. The motivation for records is vanity (I say that without judgement - do what turns your prop), and so increasing the opportunity to indulge is overall to the good. There is no need for them to be a zero sum game. Picking out motors as an exception among many variations seems arbitrary. My preference would be to have a "claiming record" such as is done in auto and horse racing. You claim a record, say in the $20,000 class. If your record is recognized anyone may purchase that glider from you for $20,000. This would quickly sort out motors or not, new gliders vs. old, and even expensive avionics. Most pilots would hesitate to enter their JS-3 or AS-33 in the $20K class against the PIK20E, knowing anyone could buy their glider for $20K if the record was granted.

[Roy B.]

OK - But moving past the diversion to a motor glider/sustainer discussion, it remains the case that the FAI and many countries hold a separate championship for 18 meter gliders. If the class deserves its own championship - why not it's own record category?
ROY

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 6:34:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> “13.5m is just historical burden of massively failed class that should have no record category or competition class”
>
> Well thats a slap in the face to all us guys flying them! Stick you ass in one of these short wing birds and set a record before you condemn the whole class.
>
> If guys are worried that state, national, and world records are no longer attainable without oudles of money or super ships look at the 13 meter record lists, there are many areas where a person of meager means can chase records specially at the state level..
>
> Dan
> Holder of 6 13n records

Dan: you are making the assumption that 13.5m gliders are affordable. Some low-performance models are, but as the expensive, higher-performance ones become more common, it will be more difficult to set even state records in a low-performance glider. E.g., I was all hot to set 13.5m state records in my 12.6m Russia AC4, but then a fellow club member bought a Mini-LAK, with "full-size" 13.5m wings, flaps, ballast etc, which has (according to the official handicaps) a 25% performance advantage. So now I think I'll concentrate on Sports Class records.

In any case, the whole point (to me) is to challenge myself to go farther faster. In states where the official records (in some class) are sparse, trying for them is one way to do that. I fly in a small state. In larger states with more established records that is a much higher bar, simply given the history of other pilots' achievements. Witness the "reset the records" thread. So one is limited to other ways to measure ones' exploits against others, e.g., OLC.

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> OK - But moving past the diversion to a motor glider/sustainer discussion, it remains the case that the FAI and many countries hold a separate championship for 18 meter gliders. If the class deserves its own championship - why not it's own record category?
> ROY

I've no problem with a separate 18m record class. If it is done due to a perceived disparity in performance, I'd assert that the difference between 15 and 18m is less than that between other differentiators (for example, glider age). Price classes would flatten that disparity, as it would in the 13.5m class.

I'll agree it is incongruous to have separate classes for contests but not for records.

[5Z]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 5:46:47 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:

> The difference arises when you are far from home and faced with a decision that might put you on the
> ground. The fellow with the motor has a tool that makes that decision much less consequential. This is
> why I believe that the records should be different categories.

So I flew a ASW-20B for about 15 years, then upgraded to ASH-26E in 2001. Flew each for about 1500 hours and many long flights with a number of records in each. A few years ago I traded the ASH-26E for a ASW-27b. Essentially the same glider performance-wise.

My wife and I work full time, but she retired near the time I switched gliders. As a nurse, she couldn't take a Monday off due to a long retrieve on Sunday. Before 2001, we did have a few late retrieves and got home just in time to take a shower and go to work after an all night drive. Ugh!

I compare the ASH-26E to a 1-26 (in which I even did diamond goal). In the 1-26, the crew is generally a few minutes away after landing out. A bad day is when the glider landed on one side of an obstacle and access requires driving several hours to get to the field that was only a mile away. in the motorglider, a bad day is the engine failing to start, landing in a nice field, and waiting hours for the crew to arrive. A good day is the crew catching the wing on landing the 1-26 -or- the engine starts and I can motor home, or climb back into the good air.

Best I can tell, I've taken the same "risks" the last few years without the motor as I did when I had the '26E. I almost never needed the engine to get home, and now I still almost never land out. The difference is that now I know we can just take our time with the retrieve and I can always take Monday off, or just go in to work late. I've had to relight a couple times, and have landed a few miles outbound. Those would have been fixed by a motor.

What if I could fly the way we did at the Hilton Ranch? Fly hard and after a land out, just wait for the helicopter to come get me. Then a crew will get the the glider and have it ready to fly the next morning. OK, so the one time I landed out, they sent a towplane :-)

You can buy a lot of aero retrieves for the cost of a motor. Or a decent motorhome to spend the night in at the landout location. :-)

So yeah, a motorglider provides a lot of convenience. But a lot of $$, a full time crew, and spare time does too.

5Z