Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

[Bob Youngblood]

Since the start of our club three years ago we have been looking at the possibility of buying a new club ship. We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001. Funding has always been difficult, in this small start up environment it is almost impossible to obtain the amount of monies necessary to pull the trigger on a purchase as large as a new club two place glider. We have avoided trying to finance such a ship, but recently a couple of individuals have been put into the position as to where they will be making a large donation that will go directly to our 501-c3 for youth soaring. The generosity of these two individuals will be greatly appreciated. I will keep you informed as the details become more specific. Bob

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 12:03:57 PM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> Since the start of our club three years ago we have been looking at the possibility of buying a new club ship. We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001. Funding has always been difficult, in this small start up environment it is almost impossible to obtain the amount of monies necessary to pull the trigger on a purchase as large as a new club two place glider. We have avoided trying to finance such a ship, but recently a couple of individuals have been put into the position as to where they will be making a large donation that will go directly to our 501-c3 for youth soaring. The generosity of these two individuals will be greatly appreciated. I will keep you informed as the details become more specific. Bob

What club our you with? Best of luck in quickly getting a new bird.

[Bob Youngblood]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 4:13:05 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 12:03:57 PM UTC-7, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > Since the start of our club three years ago we have been looking at the possibility of buying a new club ship. We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001. Funding has always been difficult, in this small start up environment it is almost impossible to obtain the amount of monies necessary to pull the trigger on a purchase as large as a new club two place glider. We have avoided trying to finance such a ship, but recently a couple of individuals have been put into the position as to where they will be making a large donation that will go directly to our 501-c3 for youth soaring. The generosity of these two individuals will be greatly appreciated. I will keep you informed as the details become more specific. Bob
>
> What club our you with? Best of luck in quickly getting a new bird.

Treasure Coast Soaring, Vero Beach, Fl

[Christopher Schrader[_2_]]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:03:57 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> Since the start of our club three years ago we have been looking at the possibility of buying a new club ship. We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001. Funding has always been difficult, in this small start up environment it is almost impossible to obtain the amount of monies necessary to pull the trigger on a purchase as large as a new club two place glider. We have avoided trying to finance such a ship, but recently a couple of individuals have been put into the position as to where they will be making a large donation that will go directly to our 501-c3 for youth soaring. The generosity of these two individuals will be greatly appreciated. I will keep you informed as the details become more specific. Bob

Bob,

This will go against the grain and probably elicit criticism but for purposes of building the ideal club fleet, I wholeheartedly endorse two-seat DG's especially the DG-1001 Club Neo version (fixed gear). The handling characteristics of the DG505 in 18M configuration is comparable to the ASK-21. The added performance you get when you put on the 20M tips (over 40:1) makes it a super ship to provide mentoring and/or dual cross-country flight instruction. This is not a knock on the ASK-21 (I liked a few of the ergonomic changes made in the ASK-21B), but if you're considering a new purchase there's no question in my mind which ship to buy. Ifyou find its too price, I would suggest finding yourself a used DG-505 (call John Neel).

- Chris Schrader

[Bob Youngblood]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 2:42:53 PM UTC-4, Christopher Schrader wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:03:57 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > Since the start of our club three years ago we have been looking at the possibility of buying a new club ship. We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001. Funding has always been difficult, in this small start up environment it is almost impossible to obtain the amount of monies necessary to pull the trigger on a purchase as large as a new club two place glider. We have avoided trying to finance such a ship, but recently a couple of individuals have been put into the position as to where they will be making a large donation that will go directly to our 501-c3 for youth soaring. The generosity of these two individuals will be greatly appreciated. I will keep you informed as the details become more specific. Bob
>
> Bob,
>
> This will go against the grain and probably elicit criticism but for purposes of building the ideal club fleet, I wholeheartedly endorse two-seat DG's especially the DG-1001 Club Neo version (fixed gear). The handling characteristics of the DG505 in 18M configuration is comparable to the ASK-21. The added performance you get when you put on the 20M tips (over 40:1) makes it a super ship to provide mentoring and/or dual cross-country flight instruction. This is not a knock on the ASK-21 (I liked a few of the ergonomic changes made in the ASK-21B), but if you're considering a new purchase there's no question in my mind which ship to buy. Ifyou find its too price, I would suggest finding yourself a used DG-505 (call John Neel).
>
> - Chris Schrader

Thanks Christo, been a long time, just yesterday looked at the old scrapbook and it brought back some fond memories with Rudy, Maggie, Bill H and the crew in Miami. You were a real young lad enjoying those days in the Everglades. Thanks for you assessment of the ships. Bob

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 3:03:57 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
....We are looking at the ASK21 and the DG1001...

I've flown both quite a bit in club environments (two different clubs, both aircraft with fixed gear). The DG1001 is hugely superior to the ASK21, but I'd guess that is obvious to anyone who has flown both. Maybe it is not obvious, if you've only flown the ASK-21.

[krasw]

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

> ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
> ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great
> ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and
> performs for the same money?

ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight, though
admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people and it
needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum energy
entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick on the
back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put the stick
in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as it starts to
spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Nick Hill[_3_]]

On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:

>
> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
>
> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight, though
> admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people and it
> needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum energy
> entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick on the
> back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put the stick
> in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as it starts to
> spin. Recovery is normal.

whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.


--

Nick Hill

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:55 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

> On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>
>> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
>>
>> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
>> though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
>> and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
>> energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
>> on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
>> the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
>> it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.
>
> whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
> that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
> glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.
>

Yes, agreed, but you can say the same about the G103 Twin Acro II, which
is at least as difficult to spin. We used to have one (replaced by a
Perkoz) that I once did annual spin checks in with, AFAIK, the only
instructor we had who knwe how to spin it - and even he could only spin
it left. Thats because the G.103 is chronically under-ruddered and the
rudder hinge attaches it to the left fin skin. Consequently it has
slightly more left than right rudder.

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:07:12 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> The DG1000 spins very very very well for me.
>
> Wow. What a great glider. I don't know how the performance compares,
> but I like the ergonomics of the DG1000 much better than the Duo Discus
> (which I'd flown in February). I especially prefer the trim mechanism
> on the DG. The club where I flew the DG1000 uses it for ab initio
> trainer and first solos. Glider has survived a number of hard landings
> on a rough grass field. US Air Force Academy flies DG1000s, don't they?
>
I've only flown a DG 1000 once, but that was a three hour flight from
Omarama over to Lake Hawea, then most of the way to My Huxton and back to
home ridge running - a weak day, not much wave to speak of but an
excellent day for an intro to mountain flying. But I digress: I agree
that its a very nice glider and very responsive once I'd got used to its
size and weight. Better brakes than a Duo too. I liked it a lot: the only
thing I wasn't keen on was getting into and out of it - not quite as bad
as an ASH-25, but close. However, entry and egress from the 1001 looks to
be a lot easier with its having a nose-wheel and being much closer to the
floor.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Ventus_a]

;1018097']On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:55 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.


Yes, agreed, but you can say the same about the G103 Twin Acro II, which
is at least as difficult to spin. We used to have one (replaced by a
Perkoz) that I once did annual spin checks in with, AFAIK, the only
instructor we had who knwe how to spin it - and even he could only spin
it left. Thats because the G.103 is chronically under-ruddered and the
rudder hinge attaches it to the left fin skin. Consequently it has
slightly more left than right rudder.

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The spinning flight test report Martin refers to can be found here. The testing was carried out by the Airforce Flight Test Center at Edwards Airforce Base

https://ia800105.us.archive.org/14/items/DTIC_ADA213513/DTIC_ADA213513.pdf

It makes for an interesting if lengthy read.

Cheers
Colin

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:
>
> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
> > ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great
> > ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and
> > performs for the same money?
>
> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
>
> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight, though
> admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people and it
> needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum energy
> entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick on the
> back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put the stick
> in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as it starts to
> spin. Recovery is normal.
>
> I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
> training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
> familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.
>
> Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the link.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 1:26:19 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?

My folks did not get the message that they are not having fun in the '21.
We fly it XC and in contests.
Schleicher has built over 900 and still has a good backlog. It is very hard to find one used in the US because nobody wants to give them up.
I don't agree that it is a bear to fly. Most people pick it up pretty quickly.
UH/K21

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:
>>
>> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
>> > ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for
>> > great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to
>> > fly and performs for the same money?
>>
>> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
>>
>> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
>> though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
>> and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
>> energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
>> on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
>> the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
>> it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.
>>
>> I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
>> training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
>> familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.
>>
>> Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like
> the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the
> link.
>
I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than the
club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew with
the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
immediately I saw that video.

I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost Hills,
CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden
and then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south
to Denver.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:
> >>
> >> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
> >> > ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for
> >> > great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to
> >> > fly and performs for the same money?
> >>
> >> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
> >>
> >> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
> >> though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
> >> and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
> >> energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
> >> on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
> >> the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
> >> it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.
> >>
> >> I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
> >> training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
> >> familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.
> >>
> >> Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like
> > the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the
> > link.
> >
> I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
> there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
> 2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than the
> club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew with
> the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
> immediately I saw that video.
>
> I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
> then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost Hills,
> CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
> because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
> also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden
> and then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south
> to Denver.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?

Frank Whiteley

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:14:50 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are
>> >> > it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel
>> >> > location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is
>> >> > actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?
>> >>
>> >> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
>> >>
>> >> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
>> >> though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
>> >> and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a
>> >> minimum energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line
>> >> with the stick on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45
>> >> degrees and then put the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it
>> >> rolls wings vertical as it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.
>> >>
>> >> I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
>> >> training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was
>> >> very familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.
>> >>
>> >> Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>> >
>> > I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds
>> > like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks
>> > for the link.
>> >
>> I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
>> there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
>> 2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than
>> the club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew
>> with the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
>> immediately I saw that video.
>>
>> I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
>> then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost
>> Hills,
>> CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
>> because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
>> also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden and
>> then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south to
>> Denver.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell
> in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?
>
I remember meeting John when I first showed up at the field, and him
saying that I needed a flight in the 2.32, but events must have happened
because I didn't get that flight. However, I did have one flight with him
that involved a climb over a Boulder supermarket carpark, followed a bit
higher by being joined by a bald eagle and ending up at 17000 just under
a big Cu. I think the climb was basically a thermal reinforced by weak
wave because when we tried pushing west into the hills we only found
horrible sink. If I'm reading the sig correctly, my BFR was signed off by
Gary Baughman. Does that sound right?

One item I missed from my first post: Between the WC at Lost hills and
the Open International bash at Sacramento, I spent a few days at
Williams, where I flew their very nice Junior and converted to their
Pegase, which was a good move since I spent the next two years flying the
club Pegase 90 back in Cambridge.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:14:50 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are
> >> >> > it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel
> >> >> > location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is
> >> >> > actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?
> >> >>
> >> >> ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.
> >> >>
> >> >> I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
> >> >> though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
> >> >> and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a
> >> >> minimum energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line
> >> >> with the stick on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45
> >> >> degrees and then put the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it
> >> >> rolls wings vertical as it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.
> >> >>
> >> >> I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
> >> >> training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was
> >> >> very familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.
> >> >>
> >> >> Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >> >
> >> > I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds
> >> > like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks
> >> > for the link.
> >> >
> >> I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
> >> there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
> >> 2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than
> >> the club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew
> >> with the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
> >> immediately I saw that video.
> >>
> >> I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
> >> then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost
> >> Hills,
> >> CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
> >> because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
> >> also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden and
> >> then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south to
> >> Denver.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell
> > in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?
> >
> I remember meeting John when I first showed up at the field, and him
> saying that I needed a flight in the 2.32, but events must have happened
> because I didn't get that flight. However, I did have one flight with him
> that involved a climb over a Boulder supermarket carpark, followed a bit
> higher by being joined by a bald eagle and ending up at 17000 just under
> a big Cu. I think the climb was basically a thermal reinforced by weak
> wave because when we tried pushing west into the hills we only found
> horrible sink. If I'm reading the sig correctly, my BFR was signed off by
> Gary Baughman. Does that sound right?
>
> One item I missed from my first post: Between the WC at Lost hills and
> the Open International bash at Sacramento, I spent a few days at
> Williams, where I flew their very nice Junior and converted to their
> Pegase, which was a good move since I spent the next two years flying the
> club Pegase 90 back in Cambridge.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Sadly, John passed away ten years ago of esophageal cancer. Still miss him and he's the one who really got me involved in SSA activities. Gary appears to have moved to Seattle and may be active with the Seattle Glider Council. Doesn't appear to have raced since 2009 though. The instructor in the spin video is Bob Faris.

Frank Whiteley

[krasw]

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
> So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
> or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
> pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.
>
> But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
> attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
> spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
> that to be wrong.
>

I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21, unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.

[krasw]

On Saturday, 25 April 2020 19:24:21 UTC+3, wrote:
> On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 1:26:19 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> > ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?
>
> My folks did not get the message that they are not having fun in the '21.

Put them to DG-1000 and ask again.

[Eric Munk]

From an economical point of view: the ASK 21 is the only
twoseater glassfibre glider certified for 18,000 hours, not just
12,000 like most...

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

> On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>
>> So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
>> ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
>> more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.
>>
>> But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
>> attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
>> spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
>> that to be wrong.
>>
>>
> I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
> flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
> unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
> proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.
>
Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

> You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.
>
Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

> Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
> fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
> appalling statistic.
>
I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Ventus_a]

;1018268']On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.

Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
appalling statistic.

I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Hi Martin

The original FM was updated in 1991 to reflect the new information from the Edwards spinning flight test evaluation

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/210_TM23_US_HB.pdf

:-) Colin

[Ventus_a]

From an economical point of view: the ASK 21 is the only
twoseater glassfibre glider certified for 18,000 hours, not just
12,000 like most...

Hi Eric

In 1992 the K21 had a TN for service life extension issued that started with inspections at 3000 and 6000 hrs followed with inspection again at 7000 hrs and at thousand hour intervals to a total of 12000 hrs.

As a result of those inspections there was an updated TN in 2003 that had 3 stages.

The 1st stage had inspections at 3000 hrs, 6000 hrs and an increase to fly to 9000 hrs subject to manufacturer approval

The 2nd stage involved inspection at 9000 hrs to gain approval to fly to 12000 hrs

The 3rd stage then requires further inspection along with the total aerobatic hours being 12.5% or less of the airframes hours for Schleicher to decide on releasing the glider for service up to 15000 hrs. At 15000 hrs the inspection is repeated and the glider may be approved for an extension to 18000 hrs.

All in all not a trivial thing and shows the importance of accurate flight time recording.

As more time in service is gained with all types of gliders, not just the K21, further life increases among all types can be expected which is a good thing

As a matter of interest, what sort of hours are clubs out there putting on their trainers?

:-) Colin

[Steve Bralla]

> You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.


Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

[krasw]

On Monday, 27 April 2020 05:03:30 UTC+3, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.
>
>
> Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

I certainly know that rudder can fall off during ground roll.

[Nick Hill[_3_]]

On 24/04/2020 22:15, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> the only
> thing I wasn't keen on was getting into and out of it - not quite as bad
> as an ASH-25, but close. However, entry and egress from the 1001 looks to
> be a lot easier with its having a nose-wheel and being much closer to the
> floor.
>
>

There has always been different undercarriage options. Just that most
earlier models were aimed at cross-country and went for the high main
wheel option.

The default for the 1001-Club version is the one with the nose wheel
which is more appropriate for a trainer.

--

Nick Hill

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I'd like to know how a new club only three years old convinced the IRS to agree to allowing it to be a 501-C3? I know of several much older clubs that were recently denied this classification.

[[email protected]]

You almost have to apply under a new name, alot of paperwork and some things you have to prove annually.

Prescott Area Soaring 501(c)3

CH

[[email protected]]

The "average" application takes around 4mo to be approved; with outliers a bit beyond 1yr, depending on how it was set up. There are many different types of 501(c)(x) non-profits, some social clubs go for the 501(c)(7). Regardless, the IRS does permit a retroactive status to funds taken in when the entity was first established (depending on rules). Caution; the type of 501(c) dictates how assets are distributed after dissolution of the organization (e.g., must be donated to an "in-kind" entity vs individuals.

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 9:00:42 AM UTC-5, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I'd like to know how a new club only three years old convinced the IRS to agree to allowing it to be a 501-C3? I know of several much older clubs that were recently denied this classification.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 1:41:56 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
> On Monday, 27 April 2020 05:03:30 UTC+3, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.
> >
> >
> > Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.
>
> I certainly know that rudder can fall off during ground roll.

Must make it harder to recover from a spin, eh?

[Bob Youngblood]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:00:42 AM UTC-4, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I'd like to know how a new club only three years old convinced the IRS to agree to allowing it to be a 501-C3? I know of several much older clubs that were recently denied this classification.

John, we were smart and did our homework.