Southwest trip advice

[flyboy909]

My wife and I are planning a cross country excursion in our new (to
us) Beech Sundowner in late June. We're based in the Northeast and
our plan is to fly out to Manhatten Kansas to see family for a day,
then on to the Grand Canyon area, and then to Denver before flying
back.

I am a 120 hour pilot with no mountain time so I was going south by
way of Las Vegas, New Mexico or Santa Fe and then on to either Grand
Canyon National or Kanab. I figure Kanab (about 4500 ft) is central
to Bryce, Zion, etc so maybe we rent a car there and use it as a base.
Alternative would be to fly up to Bryce Canyon but that airport is at
7500 feet and density altitude concerns me that time of year. I'd
appreciate any input on this.

If we do end up north of the Grand Canyon at Kanab or Bryce, is there
any reasonable way back to Denver without retracing our way south
through Santa Fe area.. maybe through La Veta pass? I don't want to
do any technical mountain flying for obvious reasons and I won't have
time to stop and get checked out.

Any other advice as far as the general plan, stops, etc would be
appreciated.

[Grumman-581]

Watch out for GCN... When I was there, it had a 9000 ft density
altitude... It took my plane a *long* time to finally break ground...
Those trees to the south of the runway kept coming up and there was no
way that I was going to clear them... While still in ground effect, I
turned to the right and cut between some of the trees on the west side
of the runway... The ground starts dropping off at that point plus
catching some thermals managed to make it a bit better, but lets just
say that the seat cushion had been rather tightly clinched by my
posterior region... <grin>

On the way into GCN, I was getting 2000 fpm updrafts at 10,500 ft... I
learned from one of the local commercial pilots that you are just as
likely to get 2000 fpm downdrafts...

Be careful out there...

[jim rosinski]

flyboy909 wrote:

> If we do end up north of the Grand Canyon at Kanab or Bryce, is there
> any reasonable way back to Denver without retracing our way south
> through Santa Fe area.. maybe through La Veta pass?

Mosca pass is only a few miles north of La Veta, and about the same
elevation. It's right next to the Great Sand Dunes (now a national
park) so it's easy to find. And flying over the Sand Dunes is fabulous.

> Any other advice as far as the general plan, stops, etc would be
> appreciated.

Sedona, AZ (KSEZ) is a great stop. Spectacular red cliffs all around,
and a nice hotel within sight of your tied down aircraft.

Jim Rosinski
planeless

[H.P.]

The statement: "...I won't have time to stop and get checked out "
bothers me a bit because it reveals that you may need a personal-minimums
attitude adjustment before taking on this trek, if you ask me.

At 120 hours (only twice the average hours of a student pilot), no
instrument rating, and I'm guessing not too many hours in-type, and
confronting strange weather patterns, terrain, altitudes and airports, you
SHOULD take the time to get some training or getting checked out between now
and June for the VFR typicals of each area you intend to visit. Consider at
least starting your instrument course. Perhaps one or two advance trips to
each area going commercial for some instruction. You may not intend to go
mountain flying but you may not have a choice if you find yourself playing
ring-around-the-rosie with TSRA while hop-scotching upslopes, lenticulars
and rotors.

Just my $0.02.

"flyboy909" > wrote in message
om...
> My wife and I are planning a cross country excursion in our new (to
> us) Beech Sundowner in late June. We're based in the Northeast and
> our plan is to fly out to Manhatten Kansas to see family for a day,
> then on to the Grand Canyon area, and then to Denver before flying
> back.
>
> I am a 120 hour pilot with no mountain time so I was going south by
> way of Las Vegas, New Mexico or Santa Fe and then on to either Grand
> Canyon National or Kanab. I figure Kanab (about 4500 ft) is central
> to Bryce, Zion, etc so maybe we rent a car there and use it as a base.
> Alternative would be to fly up to Bryce Canyon but that airport is at
> 7500 feet and density altitude concerns me that time of year. I'd
> appreciate any input on this.
>
> If we do end up north of the Grand Canyon at Kanab or Bryce, is there
> any reasonable way back to Denver without retracing our way south
> through Santa Fe area.. maybe through La Veta pass? I don't want to
> do any technical mountain flying for obvious reasons and I won't have
> time to stop and get checked out.
>
> Any other advice as far as the general plan, stops, etc would be
> appreciated.

[nrp]

Many Great SW Flying sins will be forgiven if you can stay well under
your gross weight and confine your flying to the early morning and late
evening. It can get choppy enough to pull your molars out during the
day, but the scenery is incredible.

Be sure you have an EGT gage and know how to use it before venturing
into high altitude strips. I agree 120 hrs TT is marginal on the
experience but doesn't rule it out if you are careful.

My most spectacular flight ever in 40 years & 1600 hrs was early summer
morning in a lightly loaded 145 hp 172 from Bryce Canyon to Grand
Canyon.

[klm]

If I could find a mountain course in the Northeast I would definitely
do it before I go, but I don't think I'll have enough time while on the
trip to stop in Denver. Is it the opinion of you folks with more
experience than I that I should make the time to get checked out even
considering the route I proposed?

I don't have my head in the sand on this, I've researched and read
everything I can, but as we know experience is the real teacher. I
might have a false sense of security after flying the plane home across
the country from Oklahoma City with no surprises at all. But I know
that once I get to New Mexico it's all new to me, and that's why I'm
here asking these questions.

If I determine I'm too ambitous with this, I have no problem putting it
off to next year.


H.P. wrote:
> The statement: "...I won't have time to stop and get checked out "
> bothers me a bit because it reveals that you may need a
personal-minimums
> attitude adjustment before taking on this trek, if you ask me.

[[email protected]]

As an easy way to see what happens to your aircraft with high density
altitude, try taking off at your airport and restrict your RPMS or MP
to about 2000rpm or 19-20"mp. That will give you an appreciation for
the loss of power and performance. Pilots have been flying in those
regions for many years without problems but they are also aware of the
dangers or loss of power with density altitude.

[John Galban]

klm wrote:
> Is it the opinion of you folks with more
> experience than I that I should make the time to get checked out even
> considering the route I proposed?
>

Not mine. It's my opinion that the type of training you got during
your PPL should suffice. I would highly recommend that you review all
you can about high D.A. operations (performance charts and leaning) and
the behavior of winds in the mountains (i.e. rotors, lenticulars,
waves). There is nothing intrinsically hazardous about your proposed
route. If you maintain a keen awareness of the effects of the
environment on your plane's performance, you shouldn't have any
problems operating out of the airports you mentioned.

Here in the Southwest, student pilots fly in these conditions during
training. While I'd venture to guess that things like D.A.
considerations are probably stressed more here than they are in the
flatlands, there's nothing special that we learn that other pilots do
not.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Paul kgyy]

The Sundowner isn't known for strong performance, so avoid high
altitude airports unless there is lots of runway. I used a Piper
Tripacer with my family aboard for years with airport elevation at 6800
ft with no problems but had lots of runway and clear approaches.
Without special training, I'd avoid a direct route to Denver from
Arizona. Most of the passes will require you to fly at 11000+. With
upper winds at 20knots or more, mountain wave activity generates severe
turbulence and up/down drafts. Take the scenic route along Interstate
40 to Albuquerque, Las Vegas, and Pueblo. Don't fly in the afternoon:
density altitude is high, and intense convective activity often gets
going by 2PM.

[Blanche]

jim rosinski > wrote:
>Mosca pass is only a few miles north of La Veta, and about the same
>elevation. It's right next to the Great Sand Dunes (now a national
>park) so it's easy to find. And flying over the Sand Dunes is fabulous.

Careful...Mosca Pass takes you right into the LaVeta MOA. At the Pass,
there's not much trouble staying below the 13,000 ft floor but make sure
you don't run into LaVeta Low MOA.

[Blanche]

And learn to lean. When you've never had to deal with leaning, it
can easily come as a surprise. Most of my training was/is in Colorado.
When I went to Phoenix for a few weeks on business, I took some lessons.
I immediately reached for the mixture to lean and was told "we don't
need to do that here". Hm.

One of these days I'll get to fly at sea level and find out just how
good my 180 hp aircraft flies...

[Cub Driver]

On 4 Apr 2005 06:20:21 -0700, "klm" > wrote:

>If I could find a mountain course in the Northeast I would definitely
>do it before I go

Andover Flight Academy in NJ does bush pilot training, and part of
that is mountain flying. Damian is a marvel, and he has got terrain
that will simulate canyon flying.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Rob]

Paul kgyy wrote:
>Without special training, I'd avoid a direct route to
>Denver from Arizona.

I'm with Paul on this one. Re-tracing your steps along I-40 to
Albuquerque and I-25 north to Denver and crossing the Rockies between
Albuquerque and Santa Fe offers lots of airports with services, lower
terrain, and a long ribbon of asphalt should you need it. A more
direct route through the Four Corners area will provide absolutely
gorgeous scenery, but there's just not as much civilization out there
and you'll have to cross the Rockies in a much more challenging manner.

Know how to calculate density altitude. Sometimes it's given to you on
AWOS at high elevation airports, but it isn't always. I use my own
"rule of thumb" calculation: pressure altitude plus 125 feet per degree
C above standard temperature, and don't forget that the "standard"
temperature at elevations found in Colorado is really damn cold. Know
how much runway the book says you'll need at a given weight and D. A.,
and use a good sized fudge factor. I shoot for at least 100% more
runway than the book says. Use your best short field technique and
remember that the nose will be a lot lower for a given indicated
airspeed. If the book says your best rate of climb is 72, use 72
indicated even if the nose seems level. If the book suggests you might
not make it, DON'T TRY! It'll be cooler early in the morning. To
avoid turbulence, try to stay upwind of the many giant chunks of
granite you'll encounter - picture in your mind the laminar flow
upstream and the turbulent flow downstream of rocks in a river of
water. Do the things you were trained to do when you got your
certificate, and have a ball. Take lots of pictures.

-R

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the input... lots of good advice. I think what I'm
going to do is hit Denver first, then fly up to Ft Collins and get a
day of mountain flying with a guy named Jer - comes highly
recommended. Then we'll fly the I25, I40 route over to the Canyon and
probably retrace our way back.

Thanks again..

[[email protected]]

Good response and I hope others note it as well.
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Good response and I hope others note it as well.
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

I'll look forward to seeing you!

wrote:
> Thanks for all the input... lots of good advice. I think what I'm
> going to do is hit Denver first, then fly up to Ft Collins and get a
> day of mountain flying with a guy named Jer - comes highly
> recommended. Then we'll fly the I25, I40 route over to the Canyon and
> probably retrace our way back.

> Thanks again..


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 227 Young Eagles!