Flarm picking up my transponder

[Rob Cluxton[_2_]]

I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:

My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Rob Cluxton
4D

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 9:10:51 AM UTC-4, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
>
> My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Rob Cluxton
> 4D

Redo your configuration file.
UH

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 7:56:11 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 9:10:51 AM UTC-4, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> > I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
> >
> > My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Rob Cluxton
> > 4D
>
> Redo your configuration file.
> UH

I am currently grounded, but my Alarm too is picking up my transponder and I have reconfigured several times to no avail. But I have not trouble shot beyond reloading config file.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 8:30:42 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 7:56:11 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 9:10:51 AM UTC-4, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> > > I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
> > >
> > > My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Rob Cluxton
> > > 4D
> >
> > Redo your configuration file.
> > UH
>
> I am currently grounded, but my Alarm too is picking up my transponder and I have reconfigured several times to no avail. But I have not trouble shot beyond reloading config file.

Make sure you ICAC Mode S 6 digit code is correct in your PowerFlarm CFG. Check also all the other ADSB code lines for correctness. Try changing the code for PCAS range to 0 this turns off the PCAS.

Check your transponder for the correct ICAO code Mode S 6 digit code

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Auxvache]

Must have made for a long day on the ridge ;)
Great flight

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Rob Cluxton wrote on 4/23/2020 6:10 AM:
> I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
>
> My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Rob Cluxton
> 4D

If you don't get an answer from RAS, try the LXNav group at

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lxnav-user-group

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Ramy[_2_]]

If you have powerflarm firmware ver 7.0 this is a known issue. Check flarm.com website to downgrade.
Regardless this is not an LXNav issue if you get alerts from your own transponder, it is a powerflarm issue.

Ramy

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Ramy wrote on 4/23/2020 1:45 PM:
> If you have powerflarm firmware ver 7.0 this is a known issue. Check flarm.com website to downgrade.
> Regardless this is not an LXNav issue if you get alerts from your own transponder, it is a powerflarm issue.
>
> Ramy
>
I thought he might have an internal PowerFlarm in his 9700, so the issue might be
addressed on the LXNav user group. There's been some Flarm discussion there.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Tim Newport-Peace[_6_]]

At 21:05 23 April 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Ramy wrote on 4/23/2020 1:45 PM:
>> If you have powerflarm firmware ver 7.0 this is a known issue. Check
>flarm.com website to downgrade.
>> Regardless this is not an LXNav issue if you get alerts from your own
>transponder, it is a powerflarm issue.
>>
>> Ramy
>>
>I thought he might have an internal PowerFlarm in his 9700, so the issue
>might be
>addressed on the LXNav user group. There's been some Flarm discussion
>there.
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
The LX Flarm-Mouse and Power-Mouse have Flarm Firmware, but the LX9000 has
LX Firmware.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Oh, I misunderstood that part as I don’t think this option is available for USA, but may be available elsewhere.

Ramy

[Roy B.]

I have a similar problem on tow behind a tow plane with newly installed ADS-B out. The glider Flarm goes nuts. Any fixes for this (besides shutting something off)?
ROY

[[email protected]]

> I have a similar problem on tow behind a tow plane with newly installed ADS-B out. The glider Flarm goes nuts. Any fixes for this (besides shutting something off)?

I've seen that as well. A warning for an approaching tow plane seems useful, but for one at the other end of a 200 foot tow rope, not so much.

Is some place to look in a log to see what happened?

[George Haeh]

You might want to try putting the towplane PowerFLARM ICAO on FlarmNet and subsequently loading the current FlarmNet database on your Flarm display.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 11:51:16 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> I have a similar problem on tow behind a tow plane with newly installed ADS-B out. The glider Flarm goes nuts. Any fixes for this (besides shutting something off)?
> ROY

Are you updated to the current version? They have continually worked at reducing nuisance alarms from the tug. Version 7 (withdrawn for North America due to problems associated with Mode C alerts) was supposed to have fixed more ADS-B/FLARM problems (look at the release notes). 6.83 is current for PowerFLARM CORE and Portable assuming you are in North America.

Send an e-mail to and let them know you'd like this fixed.

[John Foster]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > I have a similar problem on tow behind a tow plane with newly installed ADS-B out. The glider Flarm goes nuts. Any fixes for this (besides shutting something off)?
>
> I've seen that as well. A warning for an approaching tow plane seems useful, but for one at the other end of a 200 foot tow rope, not so much.
>
> Is some place to look in a log to see what happened?

You'd think that with all the sophisticated algorithms FLARM uses to predict collisions, that they could also figure out a way to identify a tow plane that was towing a glider and not make it alarm.

[Roy B.]

You'd think that with all the sophisticated algorithms FLARM uses to predict collisions, that they could also figure out a way to identify a tow plane that was towing a glider and not make it alarm.

Or have a button to push that says "Got it - now shut up"
ROY

[Ramy[_2_]]

Adding the tow plane to flarmnet is a good idea so you can identify it. We did this for our tow plane successfully.
However this has no influence on alarms since the powerflarm core itself does not know anything about flarmnet. The flarmnet is only used by the flarm display.
I been following up with flarm team on the ADSB alarm issue but this got stalled when our club halt operation.

Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

I thought you had to be on a collision course to sound a Flarm alarm.Â*
Dragging at the end of a rope hardly meets that condition.

On 4/24/2020 1:07 PM, Roy B. wrote:
> You'd think that with all the sophisticated algorithms FLARM uses to predict collisions, that they could also figure out a way to identify a tow plane that was towing a glider and not make it alarm.
>
> Or have a button to push that says "Got it - now shut up"
> ROY
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Adsb is handled differently than flarm protocall. Its just altitude and proximity so yes at the other end of the rope it is a target. But mine was solved with the powerflarm update mentioned earlier in this thread.

CH

[Robert Tatlow[_2_]]

At 22:57 24 April 2020, wrote:
>Adsb is handled differently than flarm protocall. Its just altitude and
>proximity so yes at the other end of the rope it is a target. But mine
was
>solved with the powerflarm update mentioned earlier in this thread.
>
>CH
>

Is tne tug set correctly in its config.txt file? Tug should have acft=2 .
This define
it as a tug. Easy to check when out of lockdown. Look at a downloads file
and
and should have a file flarmdev, look for acft=

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:10:51 PM UTC+2, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
>
> My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Rob Cluxton
> 4D

As was mentioned correctly, if you have v7.00 installed, please downgrade to v6.83, as there is an issue with the detection of the own XPDR. If you don't use Mode-C (MODEC=0), then 7.00 should be fine, too.

Also mentioned, v7.00 detected a tow train situation with the tug only outputting ADS-B (not FLARM).

FLARMNet does not influence alarm behavior.

This, unfortunately, puts us into the position where we cannot currently offer a fix for the tow train alarms. We are working on a fix, though we rely on a supplier to fix their stuff first.

- Urban, FLARM

[[email protected]]

So Urban, Does that mean my tow alarm will return? Ive recently updated my powerflarm with the latest version, as of Feburary 2020 as requested by Dave Nadler to be compatible with the latest version of the SN10B software that was also updated at that time.

CH

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:05:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> So Urban, Does that mean my tow alarm will return? Ive recently updated my
> powerflarm with the latest version, as of Feburary 2020 as requested by
> Dave Nadler to be compatible with the latest version of the SN10B software
> that was also updated at that time.

If you upgraded to 7.00, a downgrade to 6.83 is recommended.
It will be fine with SN10.
Shortly I'll have SN10 v2.47 out...

[[email protected]]

Hi Dave, I don't know which software version is in the power farm right now whatever was on their website in January but I'll let you know and report back here after flying next weekend. Some of the tow planes have a ADSB out at Estrella :) Another interesting note about the first gen Powerflarm butterfly display is it shows its software version on startup it does not show the PF version even when I hit the "push for boot info" button. I would replace the display but I really like having a dedicated PF display and have no extra room in the panel :(

CH

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

No slight on you Dave, "to err is human, to truly 'F up' requires a computer".
So states a "beta boy" from my old company I worked for. I worked company field service, thus got beta releases....our job, bang on it and give good feedback to programmers for changes/fixes....level listened to was....meaningful feedback to programmers on issues beyond, "it don't work"....

Programmers do stuff, even good programmers don't see a conflict until later.....thus beta peeps...I know, my wife is a high level programmer (30+ years) with "wishy washy" requirements, followed by "beta testing" but never done....then release and the poop storm happens.
Sigh.....

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> No slight on you Dave, "to err is human, to truly 'F up' requires a computer".
> So states a "beta boy" from my old company I worked for. I worked company field service, thus got beta releases....our job, bang on it and give good feedback to programmers for changes/fixes....level listened to was....meaningful feedback to programmers on issues beyond, "it don't work"....
>
> Programmers do stuff, even good programmers don't see a conflict until later.....thus beta peeps...I know, my wife is a high level programmer (30+ years) with "wishy washy" requirements, followed by "beta testing" but never done....then release and the poop storm happens.
> Sigh.....

Reading the confusion about Flarm, and comments I hear from users here at Minden, I recommend US glider pilots to put future money into adsb, not flarm.

[2G]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:39:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > No slight on you Dave, "to err is human, to truly 'F up' requires a computer".
> > So states a "beta boy" from my old company I worked for. I worked company field service, thus got beta releases....our job, bang on it and give good feedback to programmers for changes/fixes....level listened to was....meaningful feedback to programmers on issues beyond, "it don't work"....
> >
> > Programmers do stuff, even good programmers don't see a conflict until later.....thus beta peeps...I know, my wife is a high level programmer (30+ years) with "wishy washy" requirements, followed by "beta testing" but never done....then release and the poop storm happens.
> > Sigh.....
>
> Reading the confusion about Flarm, and comments I hear from users here at Minden, I recommend US glider pilots to put future money into adsb, not flarm.

ADS-B has not been widely adopted in the gliding community, whereas Flarm has. Personally, I have both, but I am the rare exception. If you do want ADS-B you will need to install a Mode-S transponder and certified GPS receiver (your flight computer will not do). I went with the Trig TT-22 and the TN-72 (the TT-21 will not suffice). Still, it took some time to properly setup the TT-22 to transmit the properly encoded messages.

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

I both agree and disagree with Tom.

The TN72 is not ADS-B in a certificated ship, TABS only there.Â* If your
ship is Experimental, TN72 works just fine as ADS-B Out. Configuration
takes all of 10 minutes if you're slow, but you have to have all your
numbers at hand, e.g., length and width of your aircraft, antenna offset
(left/right) from the longitudinal axis and distance from the nose, and
airspeed range.Â* That's pretty much it.

I configured a system for my Experimental gyro plane kit which should be
delivered this week.Â* I set it up in the living room window which is in
view of an ADS-B tower.Â* As the gyro plane is an EAB aircraft, the TN72
is a legal ADS-B out system.Â* Oh, and I used a TA50 antenna.Â* It's about
half the size of a standard size puck antenna, works great, and costs
about a quarter or less than the gigantic antenna which is mounted
inside of the Stemme.

I have ADS-B (TT22 and TN70) in the Stemme and a PowerFlarm portable and
it works just great.Â* The only thing favoring Flarm in my opinion is the
trend analysis and collision alert capability which doesn't work with
ADS-B targets, only with Flarm targets.Â* My buddy has ADS-B only and I
constantly get alerts when we fly near each other even on parallel or
divergent paths.Â* BUT with the long range capability of ADS-B (I watched
a soaring friend over 26 miles away on my Flarm View display), there's
plenty of situational awareness and I find the collision alarms unnecessary.

On 4/27/2020 7:15 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:39:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>>> No slight on you Dave, "to err is human, to truly 'F up' requires a computer".
>>> So states a "beta boy" from my old company I worked for. I worked company field service, thus got beta releases....our job, bang on it and give good feedback to programmers for changes/fixes....level listened to was....meaningful feedback to programmers on issues beyond, "it don't work"....
>>>
>>> Programmers do stuff, even good programmers don't see a conflict until later.....thus beta peeps...I know, my wife is a high level programmer (30+ years) with "wishy washy" requirements, followed by "beta testing" but never done....then release and the poop storm happens.
>>> Sigh.....
>> Reading the confusion about Flarm, and comments I hear from users here at Minden, I recommend US glider pilots to put future money into adsb, not flarm.
> ADS-B has not been widely adopted in the gliding community, whereas Flarm has. Personally, I have both, but I am the rare exception. If you do want ADS-B you will need to install a Mode-S transponder and certified GPS receiver (your flight computer will not do). I went with the Trig TT-22 and the TN-72 (the TT-21 will not suffice). Still, it took some time to properly setup the TT-22 to transmit the properly encoded messages.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Urban]

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:59:42 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:10:51 PM UTC+2, Rob Cluxton wrote:
> > I apologize in advance if this has been discussed before:
> >
> > My PowerFlarm core (LX9000) is picking up my Mode-S transponder as traffic about a mile out, same altitude. Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Rob Cluxton
> > 4D
>
> As was mentioned correctly, if you have v7.00 installed, please downgrade to v6.83, as there is an issue with the detection of the own XPDR. If you don't use Mode-C (MODEC=0), then 7.00 should be fine, too.
>
> Also mentioned, v7.00 detected a tow train situation with the tug only outputting ADS-B (not FLARM).
>
> FLARMNet does not influence alarm behavior.
>
> This, unfortunately, puts us into the position where we cannot currently offer a fix for the tow train alarms. We are working on a fix, though we rely on a supplier to fix their stuff first.
>
> - Urban, FLARM


Sorry, I wasn't precise: 7.00 adds suppression from a ADS-B-only *glider* (in the tow plane). For an ADS-B-only tow plane (arguably the much more frequent case), suppression has been added a year ago.

https://flarm.com/wp-content/uploads/man/FTD-037-FLARM-Firmware-release-notes.pdf

[2G]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:22:59 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I both agree and disagree with Tom.
>
> The TN72 is not ADS-B in a certificated ship, TABS only there.Â* If your
> ship is Experimental, TN72 works just fine as ADS-B Out. Configuration
> takes all of 10 minutes if you're slow, but you have to have all your
> numbers at hand, e.g., length and width of your aircraft, antenna offset
> (left/right) from the longitudinal axis and distance from the nose, and
> airspeed range.Â* That's pretty much it.
>
> I configured a system for my Experimental gyro plane kit which should be
> delivered this week.Â* I set it up in the living room window which is in
> view of an ADS-B tower.Â* As the gyro plane is an EAB aircraft, the TN72
> is a legal ADS-B out system.Â* Oh, and I used a TA50 antenna.Â* It's about
> half the size of a standard size puck antenna, works great, and costs
> about a quarter or less than the gigantic antenna which is mounted
> inside of the Stemme.
>
> I have ADS-B (TT22 and TN70) in the Stemme and a PowerFlarm portable and
> it works just great.Â* The only thing favoring Flarm in my opinion is the
> trend analysis and collision alert capability which doesn't work with
> ADS-B targets, only with Flarm targets.Â* My buddy has ADS-B only and I
> constantly get alerts when we fly near each other even on parallel or
> divergent paths.Â* BUT with the long range capability of ADS-B (I watched
> a soaring friend over 26 miles away on my Flarm View display), there's
> plenty of situational awareness and I find the collision alarms unnecessary.
>
> On 4/27/2020 7:15 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 3:39:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:30:13 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> >>> No slight on you Dave, "to err is human, to truly 'F up' requires a computer".
> >>> So states a "beta boy" from my old company I worked for. I worked company field service, thus got beta releases....our job, bang on it and give good feedback to programmers for changes/fixes....level listened to was....meaningful feedback to programmers on issues beyond, "it don't work"....
> >>>
> >>> Programmers do stuff, even good programmers don't see a conflict until later.....thus beta peeps...I know, my wife is a high level programmer (30+ years) with "wishy washy" requirements, followed by "beta testing" but never done....then release and the poop storm happens.
> >>> Sigh.....
> >> Reading the confusion about Flarm, and comments I hear from users here at Minden, I recommend US glider pilots to put future money into adsb, not flarm.
> > ADS-B has not been widely adopted in the gliding community, whereas Flarm has. Personally, I have both, but I am the rare exception. If you do want ADS-B you will need to install a Mode-S transponder and certified GPS receiver (your flight computer will not do). I went with the Trig TT-22 and the TN-72 (the TT-21 will not suffice). Still, it took some time to properly setup the TT-22 to transmit the properly encoded messages.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Dan is correct: the TN72 can only be used in experimental-registered aircraft, which my ASH31 is. Another example of our bureaucrats having only our best interests at heart. Configuration is easy when you know exactly what to do.

Tom

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

I am having the same problem with V6.83. It works fine on the first flight after a configuration/firmware update, but on subsequent flights I start getting the 'own ship' alarm. What appears to be happening is that the configuration is getting cleared on these subsequent flights between power cycles. I discovered this because I can read the configuration file through my S80 vario and the ICAO was FFFFFF. Not only does the S80 allow you to view it, it allows you to change it. So I tried entering it (while airborne) and the PowerFlarm wouldn't accept the entry - bummer. (If there is a way to change the FLARM settings from the LXNAV products (while airborne), someone enlighten me if it is operator error).

To work around this problem, I now leave a thumb drive in the cockpit with the Powerflarm config file. When I power on before each flight, I make sure that I insert the thumb drive first so the config file gets loaded each time. You can also do this airborne if you happen to forget to do it pre-flight - which is easy to do because the own ship alarm won't get annunciated until airborne. Unfortunately, you will have to power cycle the FLARM which will mess up your IGC recording once airborne.

[[email protected]]

Weird. Is any other device connected to the PF that could cause this? Could you please provide logs (all files that were written to the thumb drive...) to ?

Thanks
- Urban