Calif glider property tax fishing?

[ken ward]

Last week I received an official looking letter from the Assessor for
Kern County (Bakersfield), demanding to know the location and value of
my glider on 1 Jan 05. It threatens to impose a penalty if I fail to
file the enclosed form by 7 May.

The puzzling thing is, my glider has never been in or near that county.
I'm thinking of calling them (no toll free number provided), and
inquiring as to why they think I owe them a form at all.

Is this just a fishing expedition on their part? Can I just ignore it?
Can they be required to prove my glider was ever in Kern County?

If you've been through this, you may reply privately if you wish.

Thanks,
Ken

[[email protected]]

Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken. If you ignore them,
they will assign a value to your sailplane and send you a bill. If you
don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against your ship. If you
tell them it's in another county, they will notify the other county.
Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state, as they will
notify the other state, also.
Been there, Done that,
JJ

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken. If you ignore them,
> they will assign a value to your sailplane and send you a bill. If
you
> don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against your ship. If you
> tell them it's in another county, they will notify the other county.
> Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state, as they will
> notify the other state, also.
> Been there, Done that,
> JJ


I second JJ's comments. I would call them and ask for instructions.
Typically, they will ask you to afix a copy of you last tax bill. that
should solve the problem.

Do NOT blow off the bill - a lien is difficult to remove. I almost
could not close on my house because of a $50.00 lien record for glider
property tax from the county of San Bernadino!!

[ken ward]

In article om>,
wrote:

> wrote:
> > Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken. If you ignore them,
> > they will assign a value to your sailplane and send you a bill. If
> you
> > don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against your ship. If you
> > tell them it's in another county, they will notify the other county.
> > Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state, as they will
> > notify the other state, also.
> > Been there, Done that,
> > JJ
>
>
> I second JJ's comments. I would call them and ask for instructions.
> Typically, they will ask you to afix a copy of you last tax bill. that
> should solve the problem.
>
> Do NOT blow off the bill - a lien is difficult to remove. I almost
> could not close on my house because of a $50.00 lien record for glider
> property tax from the county of San Bernadino!!
>

But wait! I don't live in Kern County and the glider is not now nor
never has been in Kern County. The form says it's for "initial or
biennial review". Neither of those apply to me.

It seems to me that they only way I actually owe them money is if my
glider is or was in Kern County, neither of which is true.

Can't I just ask that they prove I owe them money? Why should I have to
prove that I *don't* owe them money? Does every aircraft owner get a
letter from these guys or am I just lucky?

I don't really mind paying what I owe, but I don't owe these guys
anything.

Ken

[BTIZ]

So send the response that you are not a resident of Kern County, and that
the glider has never been based in Kern County. And if you have last years
tax receipt from your own county, then maayybee.. offer then a copy.

It seems all the states and counties are getting wise to the fact of
"personal property taxes" on aircraft, and they are scouring the FAA record
base. A few years ago we received a "tax bill" for a glider that was
supposedly part of our club. Luckily some of the "old hat" members
remembered the glider, it was an old 2-22 that had been destroyed and taken
to the land fill, but evidently the N number was still in the FAA data base.

I was able to find the aircraft listed there and had the information I
needed to address the oldsters in the club. The registered owner had even
expired.. thankfully they did not take him to the land fill.

A simple letter to the County Assessor stating those facts, and the
information that the address they had for the "owner" did not even show up
in their own tax rolls was enough for the county to drop the issue.

So send them a letter registered mail, that the glider has never been
"domiciled" in their county, and neither have you. It might help if it's on
your lawyers or tax accountants letter head.

BT

"ken ward" > wrote in message
...
> In article om>,
> wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>> > Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken. If you ignore them,
>> > they will assign a value to your sailplane and send you a bill. If
>> you
>> > don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against your ship. If you
>> > tell them it's in another county, they will notify the other county.
>> > Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state, as they will
>> > notify the other state, also.
>> > Been there, Done that,
>> > JJ
>>
>>
>> I second JJ's comments. I would call them and ask for instructions.
>> Typically, they will ask you to afix a copy of you last tax bill. that
>> should solve the problem.
>>
>> Do NOT blow off the bill - a lien is difficult to remove. I almost
>> could not close on my house because of a $50.00 lien record for glider
>> property tax from the county of San Bernadino!!
>>
>
> But wait! I don't live in Kern County and the glider is not now nor
> never has been in Kern County. The form says it's for "initial or
> biennial review". Neither of those apply to me.
>
> It seems to me that they only way I actually owe them money is if my
> glider is or was in Kern County, neither of which is true.
>
> Can't I just ask that they prove I owe them money? Why should I have to
> prove that I *don't* owe them money? Does every aircraft owner get a
> letter from these guys or am I just lucky?
>
> I don't really mind paying what I owe, but I don't owe these guys
> anything.
>
> Ken

[M B]

Having paid taxes elsewhere is the best bet.
Sometimes the assessor mixes up a tail number, so
suggest this in the letter and offer proof that you
paid tax
elsewhere...

At 03:30 05 April 2005, Btiz wrote:
>So send the response that you are not a resident of
>Kern County, and that
>the glider has never been based in Kern County. And
>if you have last years
>tax receipt from your own county, then maayybee.. offer
>then a copy.
>
>It seems all the states and counties are getting wise
>to the fact of
>'personal property taxes' on aircraft, and they are
>scouring the FAA record
>base. A few years ago we received a 'tax bill' for
>a glider that was
>supposedly part of our club. Luckily some of the 'old
>hat' members
>remembered the glider, it was an old 2-22 that had
>been destroyed and taken
>to the land fill, but evidently the N number was still
>in the FAA data base.
>
>I was able to find the aircraft listed there and had
>the information I
>needed to address the oldsters in the club. The registered
>owner had even
>expired.. thankfully they did not take him to the land
>fill.
>
>A simple letter to the County Assessor stating those
>facts, and the
>information that the address they had for the 'owner'
>did not even show up
>in their own tax rolls was enough for the county to
>drop the issue.
>
>So send them a letter registered mail, that the glider
>has never been
>'domiciled' in their county, and neither have you.
>It might help if it's on
>your lawyers or tax accountants letter head.
>
>BT
>
>'ken ward' wrote in message
.
>>com...
>> In article ,
>> wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken.
>>>>If you ignore them,
>>> > they will assign a value to your sailplane and send
>>>>you a bill. If
>>> you
>>> > don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against
>>>>your ship. If you
>>> > tell them it's in another county, they will notify
>>>>the other county.
>>> > Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state,
>>>>as they will
>>> > notify the other state, also.
>>> > Been there, Done that,
>>> > JJ
>>>
>>>
>>> I second JJ's comments. I would call them and ask
>>>for instructions.
>>> Typically, they will ask you to afix a copy of you
>>>last tax bill. that
>>> should solve the problem.
>>>
>>> Do NOT blow off the bill - a lien is difficult to
>>>remove. I almost
>>> could not close on my house because of a $50.00 lien
>>>record for glider
>>> property tax from the county of San Bernadino!!
>>>
>>
>> But wait! I don't live in Kern County and the glider
>>is not now nor
>> never has been in Kern County. The form says it's
>>for 'initial or
>> biennial review'. Neither of those apply to me.
>>
>> It seems to me that they only way I actually owe them
>>money is if my
>> glider is or was in Kern County, neither of which
>>is true.
>>
>> Can't I just ask that they prove I owe them money?
>> Why should I have to
>> prove that I *don't* owe them money? Does every aircraft
>>owner get a
>> letter from these guys or am I just lucky?
>>
>> I don't really mind paying what I owe, but I don't
>>owe these guys
>> anything.
>>
>> Ken
>
>
>
Mark J. Boyd

[[email protected]]

Hey Ken,

It's nice to know that Kern is sending letters to someone. I live in
Kern and last year, didn't get a tax bill for my glider and missed the
deadline. In addition to the penalty, they charged me a $20
"notification" fee. Got the same treatment for my boat. Now, I have the
unsecured property tax deadline marked on my calender so they can't
swindle me again. Here's an idea -- why don't you send Kern some money
so they can send tax bills to us Kern residents!!!

Sorry for your troubles,
Steve

ken ward wrote:
> Last week I received an official looking letter from the Assessor for

> Kern County (Bakersfield), demanding to know the location and value
of
> my glider on 1 Jan 05. It threatens to impose a penalty if I fail to

> file the enclosed form by 7 May.
>
> The puzzling thing is, my glider has never been in or near that
county.
> I'm thinking of calling them (no toll free number provided), and
> inquiring as to why they think I owe them a form at all.
>
> Is this just a fishing expedition on their part? Can I just ignore
it?
> Can they be required to prove my glider was ever in Kern County?
>
> If you've been through this, you may reply privately if you wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken

[F.L. Whiteley]

What you may be seeing is a state looking for money. Since the federal
government is cutting all they can and there are still medicaid and
universities to support, states might be looking a high dollar items,
erroneously or not.

In many states there are laws on the books to tax personal property at the
residential level. In the 1950's people were often taxed on ownership of
radios, TV's, washing machines, refrigerators, and so on. If the states
and counties get desperate enough, you may find the assessors on your front
step armed with the statutes that allow an inventory of your personal
items. Ever play Monopoly? What image was on the excise tax square, a
diamond ring right?

You might ask your parents or grandparents about personal property taxation
50-60 years ago. Some states were certainly more onerous than others, but
I reckon the majority may have such statutes on the books. When the burden
and cost of services is passed to the local authorities, they could get
very personal about your property indeed. Check out the writings of Max
Weber some day.

Frank Whiteley

BTIZ wrote:

> So send the response that you are not a resident of Kern County, and that
> the glider has never been based in Kern County. And if you have last
> years tax receipt from your own county, then maayybee.. offer then a copy.
>
> It seems all the states and counties are getting wise to the fact of
> "personal property taxes" on aircraft, and they are scouring the FAA
> record base. A few years ago we received a "tax bill" for a glider that
> was supposedly part of our club. Luckily some of the "old hat" members
> remembered the glider, it was an old 2-22 that had been destroyed and
> taken to the land fill, but evidently the N number was still in the FAA
> data base.
>
> I was able to find the aircraft listed there and had the information I
> needed to address the oldsters in the club. The registered owner had even
> expired.. thankfully they did not take him to the land fill.
>
> A simple letter to the County Assessor stating those facts, and the
> information that the address they had for the "owner" did not even show up
> in their own tax rolls was enough for the county to drop the issue.
>
> So send them a letter registered mail, that the glider has never been
> "domiciled" in their county, and neither have you. It might help if it's
> on your lawyers or tax accountants letter head.
>
> BT
>
> "ken ward" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article om>,
>> wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Well, they may have you by the short hairs, Ken. If you ignore them,
>>> > they will assign a value to your sailplane and send you a bill. If
>>> you
>>> > don't pay the bill, they will file a lien against your ship. If you
>>> > tell them it's in another county, they will notify the other county.
>>> > Doesn't even work to tell them its in another state, as they will
>>> > notify the other state, also.
>>> > Been there, Done that,
>>> > JJ
>>>
>>>
>>> I second JJ's comments. I would call them and ask for instructions.
>>> Typically, they will ask you to afix a copy of you last tax bill. that
>>> should solve the problem.
>>>
>>> Do NOT blow off the bill - a lien is difficult to remove. I almost
>>> could not close on my house because of a $50.00 lien record for glider
>>> property tax from the county of San Bernadino!!
>>>
>>
>> But wait! I don't live in Kern County and the glider is not now nor
>> never has been in Kern County. The form says it's for "initial or
>> biennial review". Neither of those apply to me.
>>
>> It seems to me that they only way I actually owe them money is if my
>> glider is or was in Kern County, neither of which is true.
>>
>> Can't I just ask that they prove I owe them money? Why should I have to
>> prove that I *don't* owe them money? Does every aircraft owner get a
>> letter from these guys or am I just lucky?
>>
>> I don't really mind paying what I owe, but I don't owe these guys
>> anything.
>>
>> Ken

[[email protected]]

I'll give my tax man experiences and it may answer some questions /
devious plans to outwit the county:

+++ Sierra County sent me the fishing expedition letter and I ignored
it, they called up Truckee and asked old Les Seabold what an LS-6 was
worth. Les was a friend, so he told them 16K. I got a bill based on
that value. I then decided I would like to talk to them and called the
tax office. Errrr, that value isn't right, I only payed 6K for my LS-6
(factually true, but it was rolled up in a ball at the time) Too late,
you should have responded before our assed value was
assigned....................... I paid it.

+++ A few years later, got another letter asking about a Grob 103 I had
on lease-back at Truckee. This time I told them it was based at Minden,
NV. (somewhat true, as it left Truckee in the fall and could have been
stored at Minden) Nothing for about 6 months and then I get a letter
from Douglas County, Minden, NV. Thought I'd try ignoring them, bad
idea. They assigned a value and sent me my
tax........................... I paid it.
:>) JJ

[Limus]

I think we are missing the point on what Ken was asking about. The
issue is not about paying propert tax in the county where aircraft is
based. The issue is about counties sending fishing expedition letters
based on the data from the FAA database alone, having no proof
whatsoever that glider is actually stored in the county. Now imagine
if you would receive letter from the county stating that they think you
violated speed limit on their roads and unless you can prove that you
haven't been in their county for the past 5 years you owe them fee for
the traffic violation ! That would be ridiculous, but so is this! Why
do I have to spend my time and money to defend myself when I did
nothing wrong ?

I have no problem with counties sending notifications that would let me
know that if the glider is stored in the county I owe tax. However, I
think counties should be required by law to provide significant proof
that aircraft is stored in the county before threathening with
penalties for not suppying them with information.

Having said that, when I received a letter from LA county demanding to
supply them with information about the aircraft, I did what people
suggested here to do - called them up, let them know aircraft is not in
LA county , then send them a mail with an invoice for the arcraft
purchase and letter stating where aircraft resides. Haven't heard from
them since and still waiting to hear from the county where the aircraft
is stored.


Limus

[Bob Korves]

I know a pilot, a national champion, who rec'd his tax bill one year and it
was several times higher than ever before. "Wait", he thought, "the tax
assessor is my buddy". So he called his tax assessor buddy and explained
the problem. The assessor asked him if there was an article in the local
newspaper on a certain date about him winning the Nationals. "Yes", he
replied. And what did you tell the reporter your glider was worth?

After the assessor stopped laughing he asked what the owner really wanted to
pay. Buddy, indeed.

True story.
-Bob Korves

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I'll give my tax man experiences and it may answer some questions /
> devious plans to outwit the county:
>
> +++ Sierra County sent me the fishing expedition letter and I ignored
> it, they called up Truckee and asked old Les Seabold what an LS-6 was
> worth. Les was a friend, so he told them 16K. I got a bill based on
> that value. I then decided I would like to talk to them and called the
> tax office. Errrr, that value isn't right, I only payed 6K for my LS-6
> (factually true, but it was rolled up in a ball at the time) Too late,
> you should have responded before our assed value was
> assigned....................... I paid it.
>
> +++ A few years later, got another letter asking about a Grob 103 I had
> on lease-back at Truckee. This time I told them it was based at Minden,
> NV. (somewhat true, as it left Truckee in the fall and could have been
> stored at Minden) Nothing for about 6 months and then I get a letter
> from Douglas County, Minden, NV. Thought I'd try ignoring them, bad
> idea. They assigned a value and sent me my
> tax........................... I paid it.
> :>) JJ
>

[ken ward]

In article . com>,
"Limus" > wrote:

> I think we are missing the point on what Ken was asking about. The
> issue is not about paying propert tax in the county where aircraft is
> based. The issue is about counties sending fishing expedition letters
> based on the data from the FAA database alone, having no proof
> whatsoever that glider is actually stored in the county. Now imagine
> if you would receive letter from the county stating that they think you
> violated speed limit on their roads and unless you can prove that you
> haven't been in their county for the past 5 years you owe them fee for
> the traffic violation ! That would be ridiculous, but so is this! Why
> do I have to spend my time and money to defend myself when I did
> nothing wrong ?
>
> I have no problem with counties sending notifications that would let me
> know that if the glider is stored in the county I owe tax. However, I
> think counties should be required by law to provide significant proof
> that aircraft is stored in the county before threathening with
> penalties for not suppying them with information.
>
> Having said that, when I received a letter from LA county demanding to
> supply them with information about the aircraft, I did what people
> suggested here to do - called them up, let them know aircraft is not in
> LA county , then send them a mail with an invoice for the arcraft
> purchase and letter stating where aircraft resides. Haven't heard from
> them since and still waiting to hear from the county where the aircraft
> is stored.
>
>
> Limus
>

Yes, this is my point. Fair is fair, and I'll pay my fair share to the
County where my glider is based. I still have *some* Kansas
conservative principles remaining.

What I feel is wrong is that Kern County is demanding that I supply
information about my glider's whereabouts and value, with no evidence
offered that it's ever been there, and threatening penalties for
non-compliance.

If this is considered acceptable behavior, imagine getting such a notice
from every single County in a two state area! It might be more
lucrative than spamming for V|@gr@...

When the City of Cincinnati sent me a $50 invoice for transient aircraft
usage of their facility, they let me know the day and hour my tail
number was recorded. With the help of AOPA we found a Twin based in
Dayton whose N-number could have been mistaken for mine, if you swapped
a B for a 8. I wrote them a polite note and never heard back.

My fallback plan was to get them to sign a landing form so I could claim
a straight-distance record from MEV, but since the landing was at 10pm
on 12/25 it probably would have been denied. ;-)

Ken

[OscarDelta]

I also got a prop tax "fishing" bill from Kern County last year,
probably because my glider was assembled and tied down outside on the
day the assessor happened to visit that airport. The letter came to the
address in the FAA database connected to my N number. I filled out
their form and sent it back with the info that the glider was based in
another county. 9 months later I have yet to recieve any further
correspondence. Bureaucracy can sometimes work in your favor.

[Ralph Jones]

On 6 Apr 2005 20:15:51 -0700, "OscarDelta" > wrote:

>
>I also got a prop tax "fishing" bill from Kern County last year,
>probably because my glider was assembled and tied down outside on the
>day the assessor happened to visit that airport. The letter came to the
>address in the FAA database connected to my N number. I filled out
>their form and sent it back with the info that the glider was based in
>another county. 9 months later I have yet to recieve any further
>correspondence. Bureaucracy can sometimes work in your favor.

Might be amusing to display bogus N-numbers on everyone's trailer...

rj

[F.L. Whiteley]

Ralph Jones wrote:

> On 6 Apr 2005 20:15:51 -0700, "OscarDelta" > wrote:
>
>>
>>I also got a prop tax "fishing" bill from Kern County last year,
>>probably because my glider was assembled and tied down outside on the
>>day the assessor happened to visit that airport. The letter came to the
>>address in the FAA database connected to my N number. I filled out
>>their form and sent it back with the info that the glider was based in
>>another county. 9 months later I have yet to recieve any further
>>correspondence. Bureaucracy can sometimes work in your favor.
>
> Might be amusing to display bogus N-numbers on everyone's trailer...
>
> rj
hahaha

Let's see, I think I'll paint Gary's on one side and Jerry's on the other!

Good on ya Ralph.

Frank Whiteley

[F.L. Whiteley]

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

> Ralph Jones wrote:
>
>> On 6 Apr 2005 20:15:51 -0700, "OscarDelta" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I also got a prop tax "fishing" bill from Kern County last year,
>>>probably because my glider was assembled and tied down outside on the
>>>day the assessor happened to visit that airport. The letter came to the
>>>address in the FAA database connected to my N number. I filled out
>>>their form and sent it back with the info that the glider was based in
>>>another county. 9 months later I have yet to recieve any further
>>>correspondence. Bureaucracy can sometimes work in your favor.
>>
>> Might be amusing to display bogus N-numbers on everyone's trailer...
>>
>> rj
> hahaha
>
> Let's see, I think I'll paint Gary's on one side and Jerry's on the other!
>
> Good on ya Ralph.
>
> Frank Whiteley
Oh yeah, then take a six months road trip to several soaring sites!