Glider Purchase Procedure - Annual & Pre Purchase Inspection?

[NMD]

Hello,
I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.

Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?

If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?

In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?

New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?

Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

[2G]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:34:53 PM UTC-7, NMD wrote:
> Hello,
> I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
>
> What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
>
> Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?
>
> If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
> How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?
>
> In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?
>
> New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
> Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?
>
> Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

Legally, an annual (or condition) inspection only means that the glider is airworthy. It does not guarantee, for example, that any of the instruments work (they should, but no A&P that has done one of my annuals even powered up the panel). Or that their are significant finish issues. They will have cycled the gear, but do not check the brake. Most of the time the glider is not rigged, so any problems with rigging won't be identified. They will not have gone over the wings with a coin and have done a tap test to identify delaminations. The will not have checked the wing resonant frequency. They won't care about cracks in the canopy. Of course, the trailer isn't a part of an annual and has its own issues. Damage history SHOULD be entered in the logbook, but I have heard of this not being done.

Worse still, some A&Ps may be friends of the seller and may not be conscientious. Of course, some A&Ps are more thorough than others and may do more than the minimum. You should insist on a current weight and balance which will likely detect undocumented repairs. Any seller who balks at this may be trying to cover up a prior repair.

Tom

[[email protected]]

> > What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
> >

A careful inspection of the glider, logs, title, AD's, W&B, and trailer by someone that you trust to be knowledgable.

This is definitely before flight, but if the money is important, then before purchase.

Who you trust might be you or your mechanic, or in some circumstances someone connected to the seller if you think this results in an inspection you can trust your butt with.

I've looked at a few and bought two. I was comfortable doing the initial inspections myself. For the first, I bought it and then got a trusted friend/A&P to look at structure, flight, and finish stuff before the first flight. For the second, I got an expert before the purchase.

[Chris Behm]

I was told getting a weight and balance was important, especially if there have been repairs.
I'd think this is important also for a refinished glider with no damage history.

I'll be in the same boat as you soon, so chimed in and hope to gain from some other posts after mine.

Good luck in your search.

[Brian[_1_]]

Best plan if you can make it happen is have the mechanic that is going to be doing your inspections do a pre-buy on the ship, or an Annual inspection would be better. At a minimum talk to this person to see what they recommend for a. Pre-buy inspection.

Brian
CFIG/ASEL

[Joel Flamenbaum[_2_]]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:34:53 PM UTC-7, NMD wrote:
> Hello,
> I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
>
> What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
>
> Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?
>
> If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
> How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?
>
> In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?
>
> New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
> Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?
>
> Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

Having bought an LS3a almost to the day last year I went through a similar thought process. also a PU finish by JJ who is the supreme master. The ultimate choice is yours - The LS3A is a fine ship and will hold its value. I went through a prebuy and it was worth it.Repairs and maintenance comes with the territory.
The price depends a LOT on how it is equipped and how much you will have to spend to make it FAA and contest legal.
Best of luck on your new ship

[Dan Marotta]

When I bought my LAK-17a, I drove 10 hours to get to the site and spent
the weekend.Â* I spent a couple of hours examining the ship after the
owner and I rigged it.Â* I discovered some minor scraping on the nose of
the glider which the owner explained happened when he got enthusiastic
on the brake.

We did all the things 2G mentioned and then I got a thorough briefing on
the aircraft and we found a CFIG at the club who signed my log book.Â* I
then took a two and flew the ship for 2 hours, staying within about 25
miles of the airport.Â* After landing, we agreed to the price and I went
to the motel.Â* Next morning we met at the club, exchanged paper and
money (wire transfer), and I was on my way home, arriving on Sunday
night.Â* I flew that ship for four years and about 650 hours.Â* Great times.

Recently I heard from the guy who bought it from me.Â* He's still loving it!

On 4/24/2020 6:31 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:34:53 PM UTC-7, NMD wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
>>
>> What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
>>
>> Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?
>>
>> If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
>> How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?
>>
>> In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?
>>
>> New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
>> Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?
>>
>> Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason
> Legally, an annual (or condition) inspection only means that the glider is airworthy. It does not guarantee, for example, that any of the instruments work (they should, but no A&P that has done one of my annuals even powered up the panel). Or that their are significant finish issues. They will have cycled the gear, but do not check the brake. Most of the time the glider is not rigged, so any problems with rigging won't be identified. They will not have gone over the wings with a coin and have done a tap test to identify delaminations. The will not have checked the wing resonant frequency. They won't care about cracks in the canopy. Of course, the trailer isn't a part of an annual and has its own issues. Damage history SHOULD be entered in the logbook, but I have heard of this not being done.
>
> Worse still, some A&Ps may be friends of the seller and may not be conscientious. Of course, some A&Ps are more thorough than others and may do more than the minimum. You should insist on a current weight and balance which will likely detect undocumented repairs. Any seller who balks at this may be trying to cover up a prior repair.
>
> Tom
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

How do sellers feel about letting a possible purchaser fly a glider before they buy it?

Personally I'd not allow it, certainly not with a high performance or complex glider.

I'd be open to refunding money if the buyer asked, provided no damage had been done.

I bought my current glider after my inspection, and looking over the logbooks, but didn't fly it before purchase. But it was a well-known good glider (ventus 2cxM). I did extend and start the engine and check the rpm, mag drops. I've been satisfied.

[[email protected]]

Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental 😜

[George Haeh]

Before money or cashier's check changes hands, do make sure you have insurance activated.

Even if the glider remains stationary, floods, tornadoes and hangar collapses can happen.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 5:34:53 PM UTC-4, NMD wrote:
> Hello,
> I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
>
> What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
>
> Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?
>
> If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
> How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?
>
> In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?
>
> New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
> Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?
>
> Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

The first criteria, in my opinion, is whoever you select to assist you in pre purchase evaluation needs to be very experienced in sailplanes. Simply finding another A&P/IA does not assure you of this. It is possible that your best resource may not be an A&P.
In providing a pre purchase evaluation, I look at the following as a minimum:
1) Is there a complete history of the glider? Records are important and commonly not as complete as we would like.
2) Who did the last inspection? I expect this to be very recent. Does this inspector know sailplanes, especially composite sailplanes?
3) Evaluate damage history. This is not a deal breaker. Properly accomplished and documented, the only affect is any resulting weight changes. Note that damage history commonly does reduce future sell price as some people expect to buy only a glider with no significant damage history. This is somewhat unrealistic in older gliders.
4) Make sure AD's, service bulletins, tech notes, and periodic component replacements and weight and balance updates have been accomplished. More than half of the gliders I have done pre purchase inspections on have the following common issues:
a) Tow release out of service life.
b) Seat belt/ shoulder harnesses out of service life.
c) No recent weight and balance. Older than 5 years is a warning.
5) Physical inspection of the glider. This should be done to a written check list. Tap tests where appropriate. Evaluation of surface finish condition.. Look at hinges. Almost none will show signs of recent lubrication of hard to get at control surface hinges. Control play check will identify wear. Look for signs of undocumented minor repairs, especially on control surfaces.. Canopy condition is important. A properly done minor repair is no big deal. A canopy replacement is about a $6-8000 job, depending upon who does it.
6) Understand the storage history. Ships that live outside, not under cover, will have greater aging.
7) Evaluate the trailer. A trailer not well kept is usually a sign of a neglected glider.
8) Expect a written evaluation of findings.
This could go on, but hopefully you get the idea.
Aland Adams wrote an excellent article for Soaring magazine on this topic years ago.
Good luck with whatever ship you buy.
UH

[[email protected]]

> Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.

That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.

Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.

Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.

Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)

Good luck with your search.

[[email protected]]

A bank transfer is much safer than a cashiers check for the seller so don’t be offended if it is required.
If the refinish is done by the owner or anyone for that matter make sure the control surface have been weighed and mass balanced and those numbers recorded somewhere and are within manufactures specs This is a safety of flight issue and an difficult To impossible to fix.
DLB

[2G]

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:55:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.
>
> That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.
>
> Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.
>
> Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.
>
> Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)
>
> Good luck with your search.

I think the whole idea of a pre-buy flight is a bad idea and I would not agree to it. After all, what is the buyer going to learn from the flight that he/she doesn't already know? If the glider is damaged by the buyer the seller takes a loss REGARDLESS of insurance coverage: the glider is now has to be taken to a repair shop (which may be a 1,000 miles or more away), the glider is off the market for months and the glider's value has dropped because of the damage. Worst case, the buyer kills himself and the estate sues the seller for wrongful death.

Tom

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:55:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.
> >
> > That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.
> >
> > Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.
> >
> > Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.
> >
> > Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)
> >
> > Good luck with your search.
>
> I think the whole idea of a pre-buy flight is a bad idea and I would not agree to it. After all, what is the buyer going to learn from the flight that he/she doesn't already know? If the glider is damaged by the buyer the seller takes a loss REGARDLESS of insurance coverage: the glider is now has to be taken to a repair shop (which may be a 1,000 miles or more away), the glider is off the market for months and the glider's value has dropped because of the damage. Worst case, the buyer kills himself and the estate sues the seller for wrongful death.
>
> Tom

I am with Tom on this. The only way I would allow flying would be if someone had time in the exact glider; make and model, and transferred the money before flight. Any damage during a test flight, and the glider would automatically becomes sold.

[[email protected]]

Joel, Would you mind sharing more about your pre-buy inspection? How did it go? What have you had to invest in maintenance, or expect to sped in the near future, since your purchase?

[[email protected]]

Thanks all for the excellent comments.
Any feedback regarding my “False Economy� question? Should one expect the cost of a 1970’s glider to quickly catch up to the cost of buying a ship from 2000 at twice the price, when repairs and maintenance costs are added in? I know from owning older sailboats that stuff breaks and it can be a constant battle.

[[email protected]]

I'm no expert (and there are plenty in this group) but I have owned a 1976 ASW 15 for 20 years or so. Unlike a car or sailboat, the routine maintenance costs have been very low. In fact, outside of self-inflicted damage, I've never had a large bill. There really isn't that much to wear out. Changing the Tost release, replacing the tire, a new grip on the stick, adding safety sleeves on the connections and replacing the battery are about all that I can think of. I'm toying with upgrading the panel but I don't race and it is functional for the kind of flying I do. If you opt for an older ship, be sure that parts are available should you need them. If you stick with the major manufacturers, it shouldn't be a problem. DG "tax" may be a consideration.

You won't get the same performance from an older glider and if a re-finish is in the cards, that is a major cost. Perhaps more than the glider itself and probably not recoverable in resale. If you have the time and skills to do this yourself (few of us do), you can save a lot. Also, safety cockpits weren't really a thing in the 70s. If your budget is limited and you can find a nice older ship, I wouldn't hesitate but to each, his own.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:43:14 -0700, mdfadden wrote:

> If you opt for an older ship, be sure that parts are available should
> you need them. If you stick with the major manufacturers, it shouldn't
> be a problem. DG "tax" may be a consideration.
>
Agreed, and Glasfaser provides very good support for Glasflugel gliders,
e.g, Libelles and Kestrels


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

On Wings and Wheels Classified For Sale, right now, there is a Javelin and a Cherokee
that you can practice you pre purchase inspection skills on if needed!
Nick
T

[LoftusRoadLad]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 5:34:53 PM UTC-4, NMD wrote:
> Hello,
> I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
>
> What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.
>
> Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?
>
> If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
> How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?
>
> In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?
>
> New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
> Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?
>
> Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

I'm in the same boat so I'm interested in how did it went and whether you have any lessons learned to add.