View Full Version : COVID-19 Operational Considerations
Patrick (LS6-b EH)
April 26th 20, 08:57 PM
Hey all, I'm going to start to try to consolidate the "how" of gliding operations to help inform us all of what might become a "best practice" for operations.
Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zV1i_JJT0xXHn6PbN3IfHzwklguho2gIy8koLrICsOU/edit?usp=sharing
son_of_flubber
April 26th 20, 10:23 PM
I suggest that you add four columns to your spreadsheet:
Total glider launches
Total COVID-19 infections attributed to ongoing glider operations (including collateral cases that are traceable to people infected at glider operations)
Total COVID-19 deaths and serious debilitation attributed to ongoing glider operations and persons infected due to ongoing glider operations
To put things in perspective, track the non-COVID-19 related fatalities and debilitations that are attributable to ongoing glider operations. We already accept those costs.
Regardless of what you believe as to the hazards of wuhan flu there is no way to protect yourself while flying gliders in a club. All the improper and incorrectly used PPE doesn't provide protection and is a distraction that will eventually kill somebody.
I'm not saying don't fly, I'm saying you have to choose. If you are a believer stay home, if not go fly as normal human beings.
How do you sanitize the end of the rope? Wingtips? Is the first guy that touches the golf cart the golf cart bitch for the whole day?
Be funny seeing a bunch of pilots refusing to touch stuff but expecting other people to help touch their stuff. Oh wait that is what normally happens.. At least they have an excuse now.
> Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
>
>
A plan for landout seems missing?
George Haeh
April 27th 20, 12:46 AM
The half-life of Covid19 in sunlight is 2 minutes or less according to an NBACC White House presentation:
https://3n30av2dln0g4fmlc03hpv0p-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/nbacc-coronavirus-testing.png
Then there's the fact that outdoors, aerosols are instantly dispersed by the lightest breeze.
So outdoors at glider fields is pretty safe right now without PPE.
That doesn't make me comfortable sharing a 2-seater with another person without PPE, but good masks and isopropyl alcohol wipe down of contact surfaces along with disposable gloves could change my mind. The current problem is the scarcity of good masks, especially when health care workers don't have enough.
Until appropriate masks are available to the general public, rigging and derigging that require people in close proximity (most 2-seaters) will have to wait. Most single seaters offer 7m separation.
Prevalence of infection in the club catchment area is another consideration.. The likelihood of contacting an asymptomatic carrier increases in high density metropolitan areas with infections.
Tango Eight
April 27th 20, 01:26 AM
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> >
> >
>
> A plan for landout seems missing?
Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
T8
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A plan for landout seems missing?
>
> Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
>
> Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
>
> We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
>
> The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
>
> VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
>
> T8
The Green Mountain Boys looked like jerks to a whole bunch of people, now they are heroes.
John Foster
April 27th 20, 04:54 AM
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:26:45 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A plan for landout seems missing?
>
> Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
>
> Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
>
> We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
>
> The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
>
> VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
>
> T8
You can really tell the difference in attitude between the Big City folks and the Country Bumpkins. There definitely are benefits to country living. As far as I know, we haven't had a positive case in over 3 wks, and all 6 cases attributed to our county have recovered. Not all parts of the country are the same though.
Patrick (LS6-b EH)
April 27th 20, 08:24 AM
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 3:23:52 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I suggest that you add four columns to your spreadsheet:
>
> Total glider launches
>
> Total COVID-19 infections attributed to ongoing glider operations (including collateral cases that are traceable to people infected at glider operations)
>
> Total COVID-19 deaths and serious debilitation attributed to ongoing glider operations and persons infected due to ongoing glider operations
>
> To put things in perspective, track the non-COVID-19 related fatalities and debilitations that are attributable to ongoing glider operations. We already accept those costs.
I don't think that's really constructive to the exercise of trying to synthesize operational considerations from organizations around the world in an effort to support others who may be trying to evaluate a path to prudent operations.
>
> Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
>
> Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
>
Well, the pilot was planning to ride back to the airport in the glider anyway...
Or maybe a plan with a tow plane or pickup truck.
Land at an airport, get an aerotow.
Land in a field, ride back in the back of a pickup.
It seems increasingly apparent that science plays less and less of this.
It is about optics and that includes having a responsible looking plan.
My point was that the 'responsible' plan for opening should cover landouts somehow.
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
April 27th 20, 02:40 PM
For landouts I suggest that the PIC of a private single place glidder must provide PPEs (masks, gloves, wipes) in his retrieve vehicle - and advertise such before launch.
Otherwise no one might agree to go get him. He will then be forced to hitch/Uber/Lyft a ride home ("Can you please pick me up along a dirt road at coordinates X and Y? [click] Hello? Hello?"), drive back with his self-rigger, and disassemble his glider by himself. All in all an unlikely scenario.
Dan Marotta
April 27th 20, 03:00 PM
My flying buddy declines my offer to pick him up.* Instead, his wife
will drive 2 hours to the airport, get his trailer, and go get him. I
told him I could get his trailer with my car, come, watch him derig, and
he could ride back in the trailer! :-D
Hello, hello...* Is this thing on...?
On 4/27/2020 7:40 AM, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> For landouts I suggest that the PIC of a private single place glidder must provide PPEs (masks, gloves, wipes) in his retrieve vehicle - and advertise such before launch.
>
> Otherwise no one might agree to go get him. He will then be forced to hitch/Uber/Lyft a ride home ("Can you please pick me up along a dirt road at coordinates X and Y? [click] Hello? Hello?"), drive back with his self-rigger, and disassemble his glider by himself. All in all an unlikely scenario.
--
Dan, 5J
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 27th 20, 03:29 PM
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > A plan for landout seems missing?
>
> Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
>
> Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
>
> We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
>
> The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
>
> VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
>
> T8
T8: Love your seeming rationale: "Because the proscription worked it is not needed."
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:29:57 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > A plan for landout seems missing?
> >
> > Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
> >
> > Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
> >
> > We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
> >
> > The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
> >
> > VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
> >
> > T8
>
> T8: Love your seeming rationale: "Because the proscription worked it is not needed."
Prove it worked. Sweden and a few other countries results suggest it has been a dumb ride.
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 27th 20, 04:59 PM
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:34:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:29:57 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > A plan for landout seems missing?
> > >
> > > Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
> > >
> > > Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
> > >
> > > We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
> > >
> > > The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers.. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
> > >
> > > VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
> > >
> > > T8
> >
> > T8: Love your seeming rationale: "Because the proscription worked it is not needed."
>
> Prove it worked. Sweden and a few other countries results suggest it has been a dumb ride.
My opinion is that Swedes as a population have a culture that is much more attuned to self imposed social responsibility that Americans.
From the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866
"On the face of it little has shut down. But data suggests the vast majority of the population have taken to voluntary social distancing, which is the crux of Sweden's strategy to slow the spread of the virus.
Usage of public transport has dropped significantly, large numbers are working from home, and most refrained from travelling over the Easter weekend. The government has also banned gatherings of more than 50 people and visits to elderly care homes.
Around 9 in 10 Swedes say they keep at least a metre away from people at least some of the time, up from seven in 10 a month ago, according to a major survey by polling firm Novus."
So the takeaway is that Swedes use the same techniques but didn't need to be ordered.
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:59:57 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:34:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:29:57 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> > > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A plan for landout seems missing?
> > > >
> > > > Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
> > > >
> > > > Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
> > > >
> > > > We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
> > > >
> > > > The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
> > > >
> > > > VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
> > > >
> > > > T8
> > >
> > > T8: Love your seeming rationale: "Because the proscription worked it is not needed."
> >
> > Prove it worked. Sweden and a few other countries results suggest it has been a dumb ride.
>
> My opinion is that Swedes as a population have a culture that is much more attuned to self imposed social responsibility that Americans.
>
> From the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52395866
>
> "On the face of it little has shut down. But data suggests the vast majority of the population have taken to voluntary social distancing, which is the crux of Sweden's strategy to slow the spread of the virus.
>
> Usage of public transport has dropped significantly, large numbers are working from home, and most refrained from travelling over the Easter weekend.. The government has also banned gatherings of more than 50 people and visits to elderly care homes.
>
> Around 9 in 10 Swedes say they keep at least a metre away from people at least some of the time, up from seven in 10 a month ago, according to a major survey by polling firm Novus."
>
> So the takeaway is that Swedes use the same techniques but didn't need to be ordered.
None of this is proof worthy of shutting down a country or even a gliding club. From the same people who said we could survive a nuclear attack if we hid under our desks...
Tango Eight
April 27th 20, 05:25 PM
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 10:29:57 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > A plan for landout seems missing?
> >
> > Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
> >
> > Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
> >
> > We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
> >
> > The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
> >
> > VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
> >
> > T8
>
> T8: Love your seeming rationale: "Because the proscription worked it is not needed."
Simple, effective stuff worked for those of us that don't have to travel 60 floors to the street in an elevator. Revised social norms, cutting out airline travel, simple hygienic precautions etc. There is nothing hard to understand here.
I maintain that we can carry these sensible precautions to the gliderport and tow single place gliders, safely. If that makes me a nutjob, so be it.
We're not proposing to violate the VT governor's order. I was unsuccessful in persuading the club to temporarily relocate to a nearby NH airport where we could operate within the the current guidelines in NH. I was told by one board member that my proposal was "sort of immoral".
T8
Tango Eight
April 27th 20, 06:08 PM
Here it comes:
https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nj-stay-at-home-order-continued-indefinitely
Here is the actual order https://nj.gov/infobank/eo/056murphy/pdf/EO-107.pdf
You Blairstown guys are clearly flipping the bird here -- any repercussions yet?
T8
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
April 27th 20, 06:37 PM
Not picking on you...sorta seemed to be a good place to copy/quote.....:-)
PS....heard about family, knew coming, condolences......will chat later.
Back on topic.....NY Metro area.....mass transit has cut many bus and subway routes.....Why?....lack of riders....
On the flip side, maybe keep older routes to maintain social distancing, thus safer for users?
Nope.....let's cut service and cram them in....to me, a double edged sword....save expenditures but raise virus exposure....
Sigh.....
Mike C
April 27th 20, 06:58 PM
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 11:08:25 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
> Here it comes:
>
> https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nj-stay-at-home-order-continued-indefinitely
>
> Here is the actual order https://nj.gov/infobank/eo/056murphy/pdf/EO-107.pdf
>
> You Blairstown guys are clearly flipping the bird here -- any repercussions yet?
>
> T8
Police State 101
Folks still flying in NY and NJ. Only explanation is New Englanders are pussies.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
April 27th 20, 09:14 PM
I live in NJ, I fly in NY.....our club hasn't flown yet this season.....sooo....does that make us pussies as well?
Ehhh....not worth the fight, likely not even worth the post....but the post is free.
Do as you wish, hope someone you care about does not pass away from the infection...
Paul Agnew
April 27th 20, 09:47 PM
From the powered plane world - a friend of mine in Orlando just completed his training last week and passed his Instrument Rating checkride on Saturday. Several hours of dual last week with a CFII to get ready, a couple of hours in close proximity with the Examiner for the oral on Thursday, and the flight portion of the exam on Saturday. (Storms on Thursday delayed the ride.)
Why is the glider world locked down when airplane flight schools are operating? Why are their mitigation procedures adequate, but gliders are treated like petri dishes if anyone breathes near them?
It's perplexing to see so many inequities and justifications all around us.
Paul A.
Dave Springford
April 28th 20, 12:21 AM
Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
Paul Agnew
April 28th 20, 01:29 AM
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 7:21:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Springford wrote:
> Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
>
> https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
Pretty sure video that was declared a fake. Notice how the comments are turned off so nobody can call it out for what it is.
She got one thing right. Ya gotta have salt for boiled peanuts and grits!
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
April 28th 20, 02:26 AM
Ah!
So Florida man is married!
Thats GOT TO be his wife
No doubt!
Nick
T
Shaun Wheeler
April 28th 20, 02:40 AM
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 10:49:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 8:26:45 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:00:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > Please review what I've collected to date and follow up here, or directly with additional operational considerations.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > A plan for landout seems missing?
> >
> > Best suggestion so far: Crew tows pilot's trailer with crew's car. Pilot rides back in glider, in trailer :-).
> >
> > Seriously... a mask, gloves, wipes would do it for me (as in: I would drive your car).
> >
> > We're not flying because of this https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf
> >
> > The cumulative total is -6- Covid-19 cases in the county our airport is located in (20.7 per 100K population). And similar low numbers in surrounding counties. Some of our membership lives in areas with higher numbers. In my community (~5000), there has been one married couple tested positive (travel related), that's it.
> >
> > VT Governor's house arrest order aside, the chief risk identified by our board was "looking like jerks" by recreating "during the emergency".
> >
> > T8
>
> The Green Mountain Boys looked like jerks to a whole bunch of people, now they are heroes.
Don't candy coat it, Greg.
Tell 'em how you REALLY feel....lol
Patrick (LS6-b EH)
April 28th 20, 05:01 AM
Thanks for the note on the XC pilot ensuring there is PPE in the retrieve vehicle. So far the only item of value in this thread - unfortunate really.
I'd agree that this is in large part optics, which I feel can be managed with a responsible plan and adherence to it.
If anyone is associated with a club that is operating and would be willing to share the framework within which they are operating, I'd like to include it in the summary to help more clubs come up with a prudent plan to self isolate 8000' AGL.
Thanks.
On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 4:47:16 PM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> From the powered plane world - a friend of mine in Orlando just completed his training last week and passed his Instrument Rating checkride on Saturday. Several hours of dual last week with a CFII to get ready, a couple of hours in close proximity with the Examiner for the oral on Thursday, and the flight portion of the exam on Saturday. (Storms on Thursday delayed the ride.)
>
> Why is the glider world locked down when airplane flight schools are operating? Why are their mitigation procedures adequate, but gliders are treated like petri dishes if anyone breathes near them?
>
> It's perplexing to see so many inequities and justifications all around us.
>
> Paul A.
Paul, I was unaware that the airplane flight schools were still operating. My helicopter school is shut down right now for instructions and rides. In Robbies and Guimbals you are sitting nearly shoulder to shoulder. Surprised to hear that DPEs or the FAA were doing check rides.
Walt Connelly
Happy helicopter pilot.
IADPE
April 28th 20, 01:24 PM
> Paul, I was unaware that the airplane flight schools were still operating.. My helicopter school is shut down right now for instructions and rides. In Robbies and Guimbals you are sitting nearly shoulder to shoulder. Surprised to hear that DPEs or the FAA were doing check rides.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Happy helicopter pilot.
Flight Schools were deemed "Essential."
FAA sent this email to DPEs a couple weeks ago:
People are our greatest resource. Within the context of Flight Standards, designees are an equally important part of our resources and the aviation safety system. Protecting our resources and the future of the aviation industry are both important considerations in the current pandemic environment surrounding COVID-19.
When conducting your delegated activities, we encourage you to research, review, and comply with local, state, and federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) guidelines and recommendations. Your health and the health of airman applicants is important to protecting our resources and future.
Thank you for your service and commitment to safety.
Rob
AVIATION SAFETY
Office of Safety Standards
Division Manager AFS-600
Dan Marotta
April 28th 20, 04:32 PM
Thirty seconds into the video and I'm laughing so hard I've got tears
running down my cheeks.* A lot of folks who watch this (and you know who
you are) will think that people with southern or mid western accents are
dumb.* No - they just know how to laugh at this situation.* You should,
too.* (You know who you are.)
On 4/27/2020 5:21 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
>
> https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
--
Dan, 5J
John Foster
April 28th 20, 04:51 PM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 9:32:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thirty seconds into the video and I'm laughing so hard I've got tears
> running down my cheeks.* A lot of folks who watch this (and you know who
> you are) will think that people with southern or mid western accents are
> dumb.* No - they just know how to laugh at this situation.* You should,
> too.* (You know who you are.)
>
> On 4/27/2020 5:21 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> > Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
The fact that some folks would think she is being serious is hilarious. The joke is on them.
Tango Eight
April 28th 20, 08:39 PM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:51:14 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 9:32:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Thirty seconds into the video and I'm laughing so hard I've got tears
> > running down my cheeks.* A lot of folks who watch this (and you know who
> > you are) will think that people with southern or mid western accents are
> > dumb.* No - they just know how to laugh at this situation.* You should,
> > too.* (You know who you are.)
> >
> > On 4/27/2020 5:21 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> > > Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
> > >
> > > https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> The fact that some folks would think she is being serious is hilarious. The joke is on them.
I guess we'll throw the Canadian a bone on this one. We're nice guys, after all.
These guys aren't sarcastic at all. Watch soon, this keeps getting deleted from Youtube for absolutely no defensible reason.
Covid-19 perspective from a couple of ER docs.
Cliff notes conclusion: "the lockdown is unjustified". These guys support my assertion that we can go soaring safely (with some significant tweaks to our normal ops). QT please watch. Sorry it's long. It's quite interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
T8
PS: My club has decided to open, with a couple of pages of new operational requirements, heavy on social distancing and hygiene. I've read this once through, it seems quite thorough and reasonable.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
>
Yes,not sure about those guys.
My first question is that they are taking their test results for the folks who come in to get a test and extrapolating it to the whole population. What about sampling bias? Mostly those with symptoms or known exposure are getting tested. Doesn't seem like a good sample to extrapolate to say something about asymptomatic transmission. To 'follow the science' they need to account for this bias. (It might even strengthen their case?)
Second question is that they dismiss NY and say it's no worse than a bad flu season. CDC shows flu deaths at 40k maybe 60k for a bad year. This is for the whole year over the whole country. NY has 20k Covid deaths. But this is for only a small part of the year and country. Their numbers here just don't make sense to me.
Third, they flaunting not wearing a mask as making a stronger immune system.. This seems a case of what doesn't kill you might make you stronger, and they are only telling half the story.
They may have a axe or two to grind in wanting to reopen their clinic for general procedures, and also don't like government intrusiveness.
I think the virus can be really bad with high concentrations of folks over an extended time. (Like NYC subways, meatpacking plants, and Mardi Gras.) We probably underreacted there.
In areas where these docs practice we probably overreacted. There may be some good messages in what they are saying, but their overstatements may have killed the good.
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> >
>
> Yes,not sure about those guys.
>
>
> My first question is that they are taking their test results for the folks who come in to get a test and extrapolating it to the whole population. What about sampling bias? Mostly those with symptoms or known exposure are getting tested. Doesn't seem like a good sample to extrapolate to say something about asymptomatic transmission. To 'follow the science' they need to account for this bias. (It might even strengthen their case?)
>
> Second question is that they dismiss NY and say it's no worse than a bad flu season. CDC shows flu deaths at 40k maybe 60k for a bad year. This is for the whole year over the whole country. NY has 20k Covid deaths. But this is for only a small part of the year and country. Their numbers here just don't make sense to me.
>
>
> Third, they flaunting not wearing a mask as making a stronger immune system. This seems a case of what doesn't kill you might make you stronger, and they are only telling half the story.
>
> They may have a axe or two to grind in wanting to reopen their clinic for general procedures, and also don't like government intrusiveness.
>
>
> I think the virus can be really bad with high concentrations of folks over an extended time. (Like NYC subways, meatpacking plants, and Mardi Gras.) We probably underreacted there.
>
> In areas where these docs practice we probably overreacted. There may be some good messages in what they are saying, but their overstatements may have killed the good.
They've cooked the books regarding wuhan flu deaths. If you have respiratory symptoms and die from being run over by a bus it is scored as a covid kill. It might be slightly more dangerous than seasonal flu, slightly, maybe.
Fly or forever hide in your basement.
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> > >
> >
> > Yes,not sure about those guys.
> >
> >
> > My first question is that they are taking their test results for the folks who come in to get a test and extrapolating it to the whole population. What about sampling bias? Mostly those with symptoms or known exposure are getting tested. Doesn't seem like a good sample to extrapolate to say something about asymptomatic transmission. To 'follow the science' they need to account for this bias. (It might even strengthen their case?)
> >
> > Second question is that they dismiss NY and say it's no worse than a bad flu season. CDC shows flu deaths at 40k maybe 60k for a bad year. This is for the whole year over the whole country. NY has 20k Covid deaths. But this is for only a small part of the year and country. Their numbers here just don't make sense to me.
> >
> >
> > Third, they flaunting not wearing a mask as making a stronger immune system. This seems a case of what doesn't kill you might make you stronger, and they are only telling half the story.
> >
> > They may have a axe or two to grind in wanting to reopen their clinic for general procedures, and also don't like government intrusiveness.
> >
> >
> > I think the virus can be really bad with high concentrations of folks over an extended time. (Like NYC subways, meatpacking plants, and Mardi Gras.) We probably underreacted there.
> >
> > In areas where these docs practice we probably overreacted. There may be some good messages in what they are saying, but their overstatements may have killed the good.
>
> They've cooked the books regarding wuhan flu deaths. If you have respiratory symptoms and die from being run over by a bus it is scored as a covid kill. It might be slightly more dangerous than seasonal flu, slightly, maybe.
> Fly or forever hide in your basement.
If they "cooked the books" , presumably it was to benefit someone. Who would that someone be?
UH
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:15:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes,not sure about those guys.
> > >
> > >
> > > My first question is that they are taking their test results for the folks who come in to get a test and extrapolating it to the whole population. What about sampling bias? Mostly those with symptoms or known exposure are getting tested. Doesn't seem like a good sample to extrapolate to say something about asymptomatic transmission. To 'follow the science' they need to account for this bias. (It might even strengthen their case?)
> > >
> > > Second question is that they dismiss NY and say it's no worse than a bad flu season. CDC shows flu deaths at 40k maybe 60k for a bad year. This is for the whole year over the whole country. NY has 20k Covid deaths. But this is for only a small part of the year and country. Their numbers here just don't make sense to me.
> > >
> > >
> > > Third, they flaunting not wearing a mask as making a stronger immune system. This seems a case of what doesn't kill you might make you stronger, and they are only telling half the story.
> > >
> > > They may have a axe or two to grind in wanting to reopen their clinic for general procedures, and also don't like government intrusiveness.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the virus can be really bad with high concentrations of folks over an extended time. (Like NYC subways, meatpacking plants, and Mardi Gras.) We probably underreacted there.
> > >
> > > In areas where these docs practice we probably overreacted. There may be some good messages in what they are saying, but their overstatements may have killed the good.
> >
> > They've cooked the books regarding wuhan flu deaths. If you have respiratory symptoms and die from being run over by a bus it is scored as a covid kill. It might be slightly more dangerous than seasonal flu, slightly, maybe.
> > Fly or forever hide in your basement.
>
> If they "cooked the books" , presumably it was to benefit someone. Who would that someone be?
> UH
Hospitals for one. More money for covid than colds. https://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks/verified-hospitals-get-more-money-for-covid-19-medicare-patients-payout-skyrockets-if-they-go-on-ventilators/
Tango Eight
April 29th 20, 01:06 AM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> >
>
> Yes,not sure about those guys.
You know what? I agree. I didn't even get snookered, I snookered myself. Confirmation bias through and through.
Thanks for being nice about it.
T8
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 29th 20, 02:52 AM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:06:20 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> > >
> >
> > Yes,not sure about those guys.
>
> You know what? I agree. I didn't even get snookered, I snookered myself.. Confirmation bias through and through.
>
> Thanks for being nice about it.
>
> T8
One comment on "follow the money" thinking. Most hospitals (and medical practices whose core business is elective procedures) are taking a massive financial hit due to this. Not surprising to me that some in the hit would start coming up with ways to argue against restrictions. Human nature. And by the way, they may be doctors, but that does not qualify them as epidemiologists.
Another comment on the completely unsubstantiated assertion of "cooked books" re deaths. 1. Some data please. 2. Although it may be considered semantics, IMO all deaths above the expected average baseline are due to the COVID situation, whether COVID is the direct cause of death or not. (There may be another significant change in the oveall environment, but no one has enumerated it). This included deaths due to a) not seeking care for some non-COVID illness or condition; b) deaths from other causes due to not being able to get a bed taken by a COVID patient, etc. etc. So the epidemic impact is the increase in deaths over baseline. Easily and accurately measured.
I understand in some places usual average death rate is down. Attributed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of death in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent pneumonia death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push various agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
The excess death rates over seasonal normal in all severely affected regions or countries ( eg UK, France, Italy, Spain, New York state) are enormous. Around doubled. These are real extra deaths with real extra funerals that can't be fake newsed away. From a new respiratory viral infection that, when severe, is clearly distinct from flu in its lung pathology. A few phone calls to funeral directors in the affected areas should clear up any doubts among the conspiracy theorists about the numbers. Or maybe the funeral directors are in on it too - spooky!
Don Johnstone[_4_]
April 29th 20, 09:25 AM
At 03:14 29 April 2020, wrote:
>I understand in some places usual average death rate is down.
Attributed
>t=
>o less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people
>gett=
>ing medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of
death in
>=
>Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death
>numbe=
>rs look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent
pneumonia
>de=
>ath average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates
>gi=
>ve or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push
various
>=
>agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
I take it you believe that the earth is flat, the Holocaust did not
happen,the Twin Towers were brought down by a demolition team from
the CIA and you can cure Covid 19 by injecting yourself with Dettol.
It's not so much the deaths, which are very sad, it's the number of
hospital beds, especially critical care beds which are being taken up
that is the real problem. If your health system gets overwhelmed then
it is not just Covid 19 patients in the dwang, it's all of us.
Please grow up or find a responsible adult to supervise you.
R. Suppards
April 29th 20, 11:40 AM
At 08:25 29 April 2020, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 03:14 29 April 2020, wrote:
>>I understand in some places usual average death rate is down.
>Attributed
>>t=
>>o less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people
>>gett=
>>ing medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of
>death in
>>=
>>Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death
>>numbe=
>>rs look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent
>pneumonia
>>de=
>>ath average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates
>>gi=
>>ve or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push
>various
>>=
>>agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
>
>I take it you believe that the earth is flat, the Holocaust did not
>happen,the Twin Towers were brought down by a demolition team from
>the CIA and you can cure Covid 19 by injecting yourself with Dettol.
>It's not so much the deaths, which are very sad, it's the number of
>hospital beds, especially critical care beds which are being taken up
>that is the real problem. If your health system gets overwhelmed then
>it is not just Covid 19 patients in the dwang, it's all of us.
>Please grow up or find a responsible adult to supervise you.
>
Well Said Donny,
It is people like this that make America GRATE.
>
On Wednesday, 29 April 2020 04:15:01 UTC+1, wrote:
> For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the ...
Corvid (sic)? Is this just autocorrect, or trying to minimise something by deliberately misspelling it?
I think the last time dead crows got in the news here was when some were hung up at the gate of a certain broadcaster and environmental campaigner.
Maybe folks here are responding with wildly different opinions of the virus because it looks wildly different in different places.
I'm with Gregg, If I look around here, the virus is annoying but not that bad. The weather is alternating waves of Monsoon and 7k lift which makes the lift days extraordinary for flying in the East. It seems reasonable to fly with precautions, but sadly I feel that that include staying local to the local field. Being 7k AGL in a good ship gives you pretty good range but not the same as cross country. I want to figure out how to do more.
That said, I do read the news and what is happening in NYC is way past just annoying. The quality of the statistics are low, but still indicate something bad. A flu season doesn't have rows of referigerator trucks, and overloaded funeral directors and reports from nurses returning from a battle zone. Something is happening with the virus there that fortunately hasn't happened here.
The blind men and the elephant didn't figure out what an elephant was by arguing that the part they experienced was the whole elephant.
I'm wondering if a place to start on the whole elephant is the 'model' with a key factor R. This bakes the transmission and lifecycle of the virus into a simple 1st order linear equation. Do we need another factor to capture the closeness of NYC subways and meat packing plants. Perhaps degree of exposure (E) to model the transmission separately from the lifecycle?
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 29th 20, 04:01 PM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I understand in some places usual average death rate is down. Attributed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of death in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent pneumonia death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push various agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates" and thus does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and unsophisticated opinion.. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and it might be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity. So unlike the seasonal flu (where a large portion of the population has immunity either through recovering from the flu or immunization) Covid spreads unfettered through the population, killing 0.1% of 328 million (328,000 deaths over a few months). This condems large numbers of people to essentially dying in the streets since the medical system is overwhelmed. Maybe one of those in-the-street folks is you - you don't even get the opportunity to be successfully treated if you need it - welcome to the Middle Ages.
It is amazing to me how many people seem to see anything that imapacts what they personally want to do as some fifth column conspiracy. Maybe it is the result of watching too much X-Files as a youngster. Population density just by itself reduces the scope of personal liberty.
I want to go flying too; and I think now that we "scramed the reactor" to prevent a meltdown it is time to start finding out what valves we can reopen.. I also believe that soaring club activities are probably on the safer end of the spectrum (compared with concerts, sport events, crowded restuarants, etc.). However, the folks who have to decide what valves to open have a lot bigger fish to fry than our little sport. So I expect it will be a while till we get on the radar.
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 29th 20, 04:23 PM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 8:06:20 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 4:37:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> > >
> >
> > Yes,not sure about those guys.
>
> You know what? I agree. I didn't even get snookered, I snookered myself. Confirmation bias through and through.
>
> Thanks for being nice about it.
>
> T8
T8: Warning - this is entirely inappropriate behavior for RAS. Please apologise immediately. ;)
> T8: Warning - this is entirely inappropriate behavior for RAS. Please apologise immediately. ;)
Right, it throws us off balance.
Instead of E for exposure, maybe the state variable should be I for Immune system.
If you get hit with one virus particle and your immune system gets to watch it grow to 1000, then that is a whole different state than if you get hit with 1000.
Interesting that an old EE would propose states of E, I, and R. Seems like Q should be next.
Dan Marotta
April 29th 20, 05:44 PM
So...* Anyone who doesn't agree with you, regardless of the cause or
whether right or wrong, you attack?* Flat earth, GRATE, inject... I'm
surprised you haven't called him a racist yet.* Isn't that your usual
method of shutting up the opposition?
Sheesh...* Go back to* your CNN or BBC.
On 4/29/2020 4:40 AM, R. Suppards wrote:
> At 08:25 29 April 2020, Don Johnstone wrote:
>> At 03:14 29 April 2020, wrote:
>>> I understand in some places usual average death rate is down.
>> Attributed
>>> t=
>>> o less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people
>>> gett=
>>> ing medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of
>> death in
>>> =
>>> Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death
>>> numbe=
>>> rs look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent
>> pneumonia
>>> de=
>>> ath average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates
>>> gi=
>>> ve or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push
>> various
>>> =
>>> agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
>> I take it you believe that the earth is flat, the Holocaust did not
>> happen,the Twin Towers were brought down by a demolition team from
>> the CIA and you can cure Covid 19 by injecting yourself with Dettol.
>> It's not so much the deaths, which are very sad, it's the number of
>> hospital beds, especially critical care beds which are being taken up
>> that is the real problem. If your health system gets overwhelmed then
>> it is not just Covid 19 patients in the dwang, it's all of us.
>> Please grow up or find a responsible adult to supervise you.
>>
> Well Said Donny,
>
> It is people like this that make America GRATE.
>
>
--
Dan, 5J
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:01:24 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I understand in some places usual average death rate is down. Attributed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of death in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent pneumonia death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push various agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
>
> The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates" and thus does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and unsophisticated opinion. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and it might be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity...
If there is no immunity then a vaccine won't work and we might as well get on with the dying.
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
April 29th 20, 11:42 PM
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:44:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:01:24 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > I understand in some places usual average death rate is down. Attributed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of death in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent pneumonia death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push various agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
> >
> > The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates" and thus does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and unsophisticated opinion. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and it might be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity...
> If there is no immunity then a vaccine won't work and we might as well get on with the dying.
How do you get from "people have no natural immunity to Covid" to "a vaccine won't work?" The whole point of a vaccine is to create immumity where there is no natural immunity.
A difference between seasonal flu and Covid is that there is some developed immunity in the population plus a vaccine for seasonal flu. Neither exists (yet) for Covid.
In other words, there is nothing to slow the spread at the moment save for "social distancing." Slowing buys time for developing mitigation methodologies, treatments, and vaccines; while not having folks dying in the street.
Geez
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 6:42:11 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:44:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:01:24 AM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > I understand in some places usual average death rate is down. Attributed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less people getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes of death in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid death numbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the recent pneumonia death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death rates give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to push various agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
> > >
> > > The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates" and thus does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and unsophisticated opinion. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and it might be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity...
> > If there is no immunity then a vaccine won't work and we might as well get on with the dying.
>
> How do you get from "people have no natural immunity to Covid" to "a vaccine won't work?" The whole point of a vaccine is to create immumity where there is no natural immunity.
>
> A difference between seasonal flu and Covid is that there is some developed immunity in the population plus a vaccine for seasonal flu. Neither exists (yet) for Covid.
>
> In other words, there is nothing to slow the spread at the moment save for "social distancing." Slowing buys time for developing mitigation methodologies, treatments, and vaccines; while not having folks dying in the street..
>
> Geez
Everyone is entitled to their fear. If you want to stay scared, stay scared.
I posted this on Facebook. I thin it might have a place
I would like to share with you a story from long ago and it’s about dogs and human nature.
In 1980 I was practicing Veterinary medicine in Bend Oregon when we began to hear about a new disease that was killing dogs in Australia and might be spreading around the world. It was determined to be caused by a Parvovirus that is in a class of viruses which includes feline distemper and mink enteritis. It was new “novel” so no herd immunity existed, no vaccine existed and any treatments, by default, would be experimental.
Within a few weeks of first hearing about this new disease a black Labrador was presented to my clinic with a high fever, loss of appetite, lethargy and diarrhea. We sent blood to a lab that could test the feces for the virus “antigen” and began symptomatic treatment. The dog deteriorated and developed explosive foul bloody diarrhea and died on the third day of hospitalization. The test came back a few days later and was positive for what became to be called infectious canine parvoviral enteritis which became simplified to just Parvo.
In the weeks to follow we were deluged by inquires from frightened dog owners and began to see more dogs with a similar presentation: the following year our facility treated probably about 200 dogs with the virus and the mortality was about 50 percent. The death rate did diminish significantly as our ability to treat effectively evolved.
We also began to see newborn puppies become inexplicably painful and die in a matter of hours. This was identified as myocarditis (inflammation of heart muscle) and was also caused by the Parvovirus.
At times we were overwhelmed by dogs with severe symptoms. Most had explosive diarrhea which had an unmatched vile odor and our clinic frequently smelled awful.
The two years following the arrival of Parvovirus in the U.S. were the most prosperous times for veterinarians in history. Not just from Parvovirus but many other ailments suddenly noticed by a worried population of pet owners.
It was fortuitous that the feline distemper vaccine, already in production and a close relative of canine Parvovirus, was somewhat effective in preventing Parvo and gave us a “bridge” while an canine specific vaccine was developed. Parvo has slowly faded into obscurity as herd immunity and vaccination now protect a critical mass of the canine population.
The thing is; most dogs that were exposed to Parvovirus did not show symptoms and the percentage of the dog population that actually died from the virus was much smaller still. Far more dogs were dying of heart disease or cancer or obesity than of Parvovirus but this thing was out there and you couldn’t see it It was a predator stalking your dog (and friend) with intent to kill.
Perhaps you see where I’m going with this. The corollaries are unmistakable. I will be entering my eighth decade In a few weeks and when I hear things like “your more likely to die of heart disease” or it’s no worse than the seasonal flu” I feel dismissed and disrespected while, at the same time, recognizing that some of those accusations might be true.
The mortality rate of any given event does not equate with the degree of menace that we humans feel. Jack the Ripper killed somewhere between 5 and 11 women and terrorized a nation. As many people died in two days in New York last week from Covid19 as died in the 9/11 World Trade Center incident.
Our fear of the unknown or unseen menace is brain stem level stuff and an evolutionary adaptation.
I think the American people want to be warriors in the fight against this contagion. They just need empathetic intelligent leadership . So please take care of yourself, wear a face mask in public and keep off my lawn.
Sent from my iPad
I shared this on Facebook last week and I think it might be appropriate here
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
From: Dale Bush >
Date: April 25, 2020 at 7:18:35 PM PDT
To: Jan Cell >
Subject: I would like to share with you a story from long ag
I would like to share with you a story from long ago and it’s about dogs and human nature.
In 1980 I was practicing Veterinary medicine in Bend Oregon when we began to hear about a new disease that was killing dogs in Australia and might be spreading around the world. It was determined to be caused by a Parvovirus that is in a class of viruses which includes feline distemper and mink enteritis. It was new “novel” so no herd immunity existed, no vaccine existed and any treatments, by default, would be experimental.
Within a few weeks of first hearing about this new disease a black Labrador was presented to my clinic with a high fever, loss of appetite, lethargy and diarrhea. We sent blood to a lab that could test the feces for the virus “antigen” and began symptomatic treatment. The dog deteriorated and developed explosive foul bloody diarrhea and died on the third day of hospitalization. The test came back a few days later and was positive for what became to be called infectious canine parvoviral enteritis which became simplified to just Parvo.
In the weeks to follow we were deluged by inquires from frightened dog owners and began to see more dogs with a similar presentation: the following year our facility treated probably about 200 dogs with the virus and the mortality was about 50 percent. The death rate did diminish significantly as our ability to treat effectively evolved.
We also began to see newborn puppies become inexplicably painful and die in a matter of hours. This was identified as myocarditis (inflammation of heart muscle) and was also caused by the Parvovirus.
At times we were overwhelmed by dogs with severe symptoms. Most had explosive diarrhea which had an unmatched vile odor and our clinic frequently smelled awful.
The two years following the arrival of Parvovirus in the U.S. were the most prosperous times for veterinarians in history. Not just from Parvovirus but many other ailments suddenly noticed by a worried population of pet owners.
It was fortuitous that the feline distemper vaccine, already in production and a close relative of canine Parvovirus, was somewhat effective in preventing Parvo and gave us a “bridge” while an canine specific vaccine was developed. Parvo has slowly faded into obscurity as herd immunity and vaccination now protect a critical mass of the canine population.
The thing is; most dogs that were exposed to Parvovirus did not show symptoms and the percentage of the dog population that actually died from the virus was much smaller still. Far more dogs were dying of heart disease or cancer or obesity than of Parvovirus but this thing was out there and you couldn’t see it It was a predator stalking your dog (and friend) with intent to kill.
Perhaps you see where I’m going with this. The corollaries are unmistakable. I will be entering my eighth decade In a few weeks and when I hear things like “your more likely to die of heart disease” or it’s no worse than the seasonal flu” I feel dismissed and disrespected while, at the same time, recognizing that some of those accusations might be true.
The mortality rate of any given event does not equate with the degree of menace that we humans feel. Jack the Ripper killed somewhere between 5 and 11 women and terrorized a nation. As many people died in two days in New York last week from Covid19 as died in the 9/11 World Trade Center incident.
Our fear of the unknown or unseen menace is brain stem level stuff and an evolutionary adaptation.
I think the American people want to be warriors in the fight against this contagion. They just need empathetic intelligent leadership . So please take care of yourself, wear a face mask in public and keep off my lawn.
Sent from my iPad
On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:52:59 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I shared this on Facebook last week and I think it might be appropriate here
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Dale Bush >
> Date: April 25, 2020 at 7:18:35 PM PDT
> To: Jan Cell >
> Subject: I would like to share with you a story from long ag
>
>
>
> I would like to share with you a story from long ago and it’s about dogs and human nature.
> In 1980 I was practicing Veterinary medicine in Bend Oregon when we began to hear about a new disease that was killing dogs in Australia and might be spreading around the world. It was determined to be caused by a Parvovirus that is in a class of viruses which includes feline distemper and mink enteritis. It was new “novel” so no herd immunity existed, no vaccine existed and any treatments, by default, would be experimental.
> Within a few weeks of first hearing about this new disease a black Labrador was presented to my clinic with a high fever, loss of appetite, lethargy and diarrhea. We sent blood to a lab that could test the feces for the virus “antigen” and began symptomatic treatment. The dog deteriorated and developed explosive foul bloody diarrhea and died on the third day of hospitalization. The test came back a few days later and was positive for what became to be called infectious canine parvoviral enteritis which became simplified to just Parvo.
> In the weeks to follow we were deluged by inquires from frightened dog owners and began to see more dogs with a similar presentation: the following year our facility treated probably about 200 dogs with the virus and the mortality was about 50 percent. The death rate did diminish significantly as our ability to treat effectively evolved.
> We also began to see newborn puppies become inexplicably painful and die in a matter of hours. This was identified as myocarditis (inflammation of heart muscle) and was also caused by the Parvovirus.
> At times we were overwhelmed by dogs with severe symptoms. Most had explosive diarrhea which had an unmatched vile odor and our clinic frequently smelled awful.
> The two years following the arrival of Parvovirus in the U.S. were the most prosperous times for veterinarians in history. Not just from Parvovirus but many other ailments suddenly noticed by a worried population of pet owners.
> It was fortuitous that the feline distemper vaccine, already in production and a close relative of canine Parvovirus, was somewhat effective in preventing Parvo and gave us a “bridge” while an canine specific vaccine was developed. Parvo has slowly faded into obscurity as herd immunity and vaccination now protect a critical mass of the canine population.
> The thing is; most dogs that were exposed to Parvovirus did not show symptoms and the percentage of the dog population that actually died from the virus was much smaller still. Far more dogs were dying of heart disease or cancer or obesity than of Parvovirus but this thing was out there and you couldn’t see it It was a predator stalking your dog (and friend) with intent to kill.
> Perhaps you see where I’m going with this. The corollaries are unmistakable. I will be entering my eighth decade In a few weeks and when I hear things like “your more likely to die of heart disease” or it’s no worse than the seasonal flu” I feel dismissed and disrespected while, at the same time, recognizing that some of those accusations might be true.
> The mortality rate of any given event does not equate with the degree of menace that we humans feel. Jack the Ripper killed somewhere between 5 and 11 women and terrorized a nation. As many people died in two days in New York last week from Covid19 as died in the 9/11 World Trade Center incident.
> Our fear of the unknown or unseen menace is brain stem level stuff and an evolutionary adaptation.
> I think the American people want to be warriors in the fight against this contagion. They just need empathetic intelligent leadership . So please take care of yourself, wear a face mask in public and keep off my lawn.
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
Don Johnstone[_4_]
April 30th 20, 12:45 PM
At 19:44 29 April 2020, wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:01:24 AM UTC-4, John
Godfrey (QT) wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4,
>wrote=
>:
>> > I understand in some places usual average death rate is down.
>Attribut=
>ed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less
people
>=
>getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes
of
>death=
> in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid
death
>n=
>umbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the
recent
>pneumoni=
>a death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death
>rate=
>s give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to
push
>vari=
>ous agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
>>=20
>> The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates"
and
>th=
>us does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and
unsophisticated
>opini=
>on. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and
it
>mig=
>ht be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity...
>If there is no immunity then a vaccine won't work and we might as
well get
>=
>on with the dying.
Your assessment of the situation is remarkably naive. The seven
year old next door seems to have a better grasp of reality than you
do. Covid may indeed be similar to flu but as you have stated,
currently there is no immunity. To prevent exponential infection the
only option is to not come into contact with the virus. We call that
social distancing. Why is preventing exponential infection important?
Two reasons, the first people are dying from it, the second, probably
more important, is that in some the disease causes a serious
complication which needs treatment in hospital, perhaps with critical
care. If the total number of infections increases exponentially so will
the numbers needing hospitalisation. That is the danger, our
hospitals could soon become overwhelmed to the stage where no
one can get treatment. If you cannot see the danger in that then we
are lost.
In the midst of this all you can winge about is the fact you cannot go
flying. Well, breaking news, we are all in the same boat but many of
us have the intelligence and responsibility to realise that what is
being done is necessary, to protect us all. If this does get out of
control it will be because of irresponsible people who fail to comply
with the rules, who look for loophole which allow them to exercise
their "freedom", whatever the consequences to others.
There is some serious work going on, looking for a vaccine and other
treatments, that do not involve ingesting disinfectant.
We do see that in the US you do have a problem, as you appear to
have no effective leadership. Advice as to what to do changes on a
daily, or sometimes hourly basis.
I want to fly the Vega sitting in my yard, that I have yet to fly. I
want to do it tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. I am
pretty sure that the disease will not get me tomorrow but if I, and
other responsible people do not act responsibly I may not get the
opportunity further in the future.
If you do not understand words like exponential, irresponsible and
naive please look them up in a dictionary or ask an adult to explain
them.
>
Paul T[_4_]
April 30th 20, 02:49 PM
At 11:45 30 April 2020, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 19:44 29 April 2020, wrote:
>>On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:01:24 AM UTC-4, John
>Godfrey (QT) wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:15:01 PM UTC-4,
>>wrote=
>>:
>>> > I understand in some places usual average death rate is down.
>>Attribut=
>>ed to less motor vehicle accidents, sadly probably also due to less
>people
>>=
>>getting medical care as medical mistakes are one of the top causes
>of
>>death=
>> in Western countries. For evidence of hinkyness in overall corvid
>death
>>n=
>>umbers look at the reported pneumonia death average and the
>recent
>>pneumoni=
>>a death average. My opinion is this is just a flu with flu like death
>>rate=
>>s give or take and all sorts of people are jumping up and down to
>push
>>vari=
>>ous agendas. None of which I care about, I just want to fly.
>>>=20
>>> The assertion that this is "just a flu, with flu like death rates"
>and
>>th=
>>us does not merit action is an astoundingly naive and
>unsophisticated
>>opini=
>>on. Even if the death rate from Covid is as low as seasonal flu (and
>it
>>mig=
>>ht be) the difference in impact is that there is no immunity...
>>If there is no immunity then a vaccine won't work and we might as
>well get
>>=
>>on with the dying.
>
>Your assessment of the situation is remarkably naive. The seven
>year old next door seems to have a better grasp of reality than you
>do. Covid may indeed be similar to flu but as you have stated,
>currently there is no immunity. To prevent exponential infection the
>only option is to not come into contact with the virus. We call that
>social distancing. Why is preventing exponential infection important?
>Two reasons, the first people are dying from it, the second, probably
>more important, is that in some the disease causes a serious
>complication which needs treatment in hospital, perhaps with critical
>care. If the total number of infections increases exponentially so will
>the numbers needing hospitalisation. That is the danger, our
>hospitals could soon become overwhelmed to the stage where no
>one can get treatment. If you cannot see the danger in that then we
>are lost.
>In the midst of this all you can winge about is the fact you cannot go
>flying. Well, breaking news, we are all in the same boat but many of
>us have the intelligence and responsibility to realise that what is
>being done is necessary, to protect us all. If this does get out of
>control it will be because of irresponsible people who fail to comply
>with the rules, who look for loophole which allow them to exercise
>their "freedom", whatever the consequences to others.
>There is some serious work going on, looking for a vaccine and other
>treatments, that do not involve ingesting disinfectant.
>We do see that in the US you do have a problem, as you appear to
>have no effective leadership. Advice as to what to do changes on a
>daily, or sometimes hourly basis.
>
>I want to fly the Vega sitting in my yard, that I have yet to fly. I
>want to do it tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. I am
>pretty sure that the disease will not get me tomorrow but if I, and
>other responsible people do not act responsibly I may not get the
>opportunity further in the future.
>
>If you do not understand words like exponential, irresponsible and
>naive please look them up in a dictionary or ask an adult to explain
>them.
>>
Don your wasting your time just pass his details onto those that have lost
loved ones in New York or other urban areas of the USA and let them educate
him...…….
> I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
Hmmm, that's some serious bait dangling there...
Oh well, never hurts to give the personal freedom speech...
I'm all for my personal freedom. But that logically has to also mean my neighbor gets his personal freedom. Another way to say it is my rights end where my neighbor's begin. If there is a way to sort this out so both can have more rights, that would be intelligent. If there is a way to give both less rights, it would be unfortunate. If the way helps yourself but hurts others, then it is selfish. (Not sure the fourth combination is interesting here?)
Since wearing a mask is not much of a burden but potentially of great benefit in the right circumstances, the above 'no mask period' plan appears somewhere between selfish and unfortunate, depending on how widely it is applied.
On another note, last night's news included two articles actually providing useful information.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/847755751
https://www.ryankemper.io/post/2020-04-29-the_case_for_ending_lockdown/
It might be neat if our President would/could/should read section 6 of the second article?
Dave Springford
April 30th 20, 10:30 PM
Wearing a mask or not can be compared to wearing pants or not (with credit to the internet):
If nobody wears pants and the guy beside you on the street pees, you both get wet.
If you wear pants, you still get wet, but not as much as if you don't wear pants.
If you both wear pants, he gets wet and you are safe.
Steve Bralla
May 1st 20, 01:10 AM
On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 1st 20, 05:15 PM
On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 2:30:11 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
> Wearing a mask or not can be compared to wearing pants or not (with credit to the internet):
>
>
> If nobody wears pants and the guy beside you on the street pees, you both get wet.
>
> If you wear pants, you still get wet, but not as much as if you don't wear pants.
>
> If you both wear pants, he gets wet and you are safe.
Dave, good analogy, but I fear you are really just ****ing in the wind betting on one of these losing friends, has a lick of sense.
Shaun Wheeler
May 3rd 20, 10:23 PM
On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 2:39:16 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:51:14 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 9:32:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Thirty seconds into the video and I'm laughing so hard I've got tears
> > > running down my cheeks.* A lot of folks who watch this (and you know who
> > > you are) will think that people with southern or mid western accents are
> > > dumb.* No - they just know how to laugh at this situation.* You should,
> > > too.* (You know who you are.)
> > >
> > > On 4/27/2020 5:21 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> > > > Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
> > > >
> > > > https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > The fact that some folks would think she is being serious is hilarious. The joke is on them.
>
> I guess we'll throw the Canadian a bone on this one. We're nice guys, after all.
>
> These guys aren't sarcastic at all. Watch soon, this keeps getting deleted from Youtube for absolutely no defensible reason.
>
> Covid-19 perspective from a couple of ER docs.
>
> Cliff notes conclusion: "the lockdown is unjustified". These guys support my assertion that we can go soaring safely (with some significant tweaks to our normal ops). QT please watch. Sorry it's long. It's quite interesting.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
>
> T8
>
>
> PS: My club has decided to open, with a couple of pages of new operational requirements, heavy on social distancing and hygiene. I've read this once through, it seems quite thorough and reasonable.
Good for your club. It's nice to see a little sanity.
I am honestly quite puzzled by people who accept the sometimes fickle influences of weather and winds insist that life be so utterly predictable that they're scared to death of this virus.
If they're scared they should stay home and be scared and not inflict their fears on everybody else.
Risk mitigation? Sure. I got no problem with that. But watching what people do in public? These folks are stupid. No common sense.
Shaun Wheeler
May 3rd 20, 10:38 PM
On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
>
> > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
>
> Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
Good point.
Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 3rd 20, 11:29 PM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> >
> > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
>
> Good point.
>
> Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
>
> Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
>
> It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
>
> Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
>
> Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
>
> Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
>
> I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
>
> Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
>
> But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
Shaun Wheeler
May 4th 20, 12:07 AM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 5:29:12 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> > >
> > > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
> >
> > Good point.
> >
> > Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
> >
> > Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
> >
> > It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
> >
> > Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
> >
> > Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
> >
> > Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
> >
> > I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
> >
> > Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
> >
> > But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
>
> I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
Not a problem. I'll can see you need me to write more slowly for you to get it.
In February, Fauci did a live interview that's still on youtube (For now) where he said "most US citizens don't need to worry about it", referring to Covid 19.
By March, that changed to an estimate of 60,000 dead total from Covid by late fall. We've already hit 60,000, if the numbers are credible, which according to the same experts, there is reason to doubt because of the financial incentives to label a skydiving or base jumping accident as 'covid'.
At first the CDC said "domestic pets like cats and dogs can't get it. Neither can wild animals". Then a cat was diagnosed. Then two lions at NYC Zoo.
But by all means, bet your life on their 'expert' advice, John. I think we both agree on that, though probably for very, very different reasons.
But no, I'm not a doctor. I'm also not a dumbass who trusts somebody implicitly because they have an ill fitting sheepskin and a government job.
Tango Eight
May 4th 20, 01:23 AM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 5:23:41 PM UTC-4, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 2:39:16 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 11:51:14 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 9:32:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > Thirty seconds into the video and I'm laughing so hard I've got tears
> > > > running down my cheeks.* A lot of folks who watch this (and you know who
> > > > you are) will think that people with southern or mid western accents are
> > > > dumb.* No - they just know how to laugh at this situation.* You should,
> > > > too.* (You know who you are.)
> > > >
> > > > On 4/27/2020 5:21 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
> > > > > Meanwhile in Florida, Darwinism rears its head.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://youtu.be/Vfmaza3lPDc
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dan, 5J
> > >
> > > The fact that some folks would think she is being serious is hilarious. The joke is on them.
> >
> > I guess we'll throw the Canadian a bone on this one. We're nice guys, after all.
> >
> > These guys aren't sarcastic at all. Watch soon, this keeps getting deleted from Youtube for absolutely no defensible reason.
> >
> > Covid-19 perspective from a couple of ER docs.
> >
> > Cliff notes conclusion: "the lockdown is unjustified". These guys support my assertion that we can go soaring safely (with some significant tweaks to our normal ops). QT please watch. Sorry it's long. It's quite interesting.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJegzdhQjdI
> >
> > T8
> >
> >
> > PS: My club has decided to open, with a couple of pages of new operational requirements, heavy on social distancing and hygiene. I've read this once through, it seems quite thorough and reasonable.
>
>
> Good for your club. It's nice to see a little sanity.
It didn't happen. We're working on it.
T8
Flew yesterday , been flying all thru this mess, landed out, oh well, met a real nice farmer, got retreaved brought back to the club. less exposure in all of that activity than getting gas or getting groceries! No I didn’t wear a mask, no I am not worried. Some folks need to learn how to apply some common sense.
Now as a result of all this lingering panic we have no contests, limited flying and a pending serious depression. Those who are old, scared, or with compromised immune systems need to stay home and let the rest of us go on with our lives.
GliderCZ
May 4th 20, 02:15 AM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 3:29:12 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> > >
> > > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
> >
> > Good point.
> >
> > Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
> >
> > Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
> >
> > It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
> >
> > Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
> >
> > Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
> >
> > Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
> >
> > I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
> >
> > Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
> >
> > But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
>
> I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
Expertise and education be damned! We all have Google now!
From someone in the thread, "Covid may indeed be similar to flu but as you have stated, currently there is no immunity."
Maybe I am not following clearly, but I keep hearing we've tested so many hundreds of thousands across the US, and (you choose a number) 10-40% respond as Covid-exposed, and then of those only a smattering need health care, maybe 10%, and of those - 90% recover.
If we've been exposed, and are still living, with or without symptoms, aren't we in the process of creating this mystical "herd immunity"? Aren't we creating immunity by fighting off death by Covid?
I do know that by being given a vaccine, we give ourselves a little bit of the bad thing and startle our bodies into creating warriors to fight a bigger batch of the enemy, if it shows up.
I do agree with the process of eating dirt, breathing pollen, playing contact sports and ramping up our bodies to be athletically strong. In my own lifestyle, I contact few people, get lots of sunshine, lots of wind (40g65 this week) and figure that those puny Covid molecules can be whizzing by. I do wash hands more often now after visiting stores. But I really dislike the masks.
My vote -- be sensible and get back to life. And to flying.
I think at some point, folks will just do that anyway.
Or, the nanny state will just implode financially, and we'll be on our own to choose our actions.
Who benefits from this chaos? Anyone who wants to see a different 'leadership' financially/religiously/politically . . . . as long as they have the cash reserves to be insulated from the mess. That can be a pretty big list of possibilities.
Cindy B
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 9:15:22 PM UTC-4, GliderCZ wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 3:29:12 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> > > >
> > > > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
> > >
> > > Good point.
> > >
> > > Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
> > >
> > > Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
> > >
> > > It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
> > >
> > > Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
> > >
> > > Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
> > >
> > > Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
> > >
> > > I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
> > >
> > > Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
> > >
> > > But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
> >
> > I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
>
> Expertise and education be damned! We all have Google now!
If your experts are so expert why are medical mistakes the number 3 killer in America? Politically connected labcoats are charlatans serving something other than the public good. Thankfully people are realizing their own common sense is the only answer. Before you take a Fauci recommendation I suggest you research how well his approval of AZT worked out.
Mark Morwood
May 4th 20, 08:44 AM
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 12:52:42 PM UTC+10, wrote:
> From someone in the thread, "Covid may indeed be similar to flu but as you have stated, currently there is no immunity."
>
> Maybe I am not following clearly, but I keep hearing we've tested so many hundreds of thousands across the US, and (you choose a number) 10-40% respond as Covid-exposed, and then of those only a smattering need health care, maybe 10%, and of those - 90% recover.
>
> If we've been exposed, and are still living, with or without symptoms, aren't we in the process of creating this mystical "herd immunity"? Aren't we creating immunity by fighting off death by Covid?
>
Not necessarily. Once you've been exposed to some virus's, for example chickenpox, you have life long immunity, for others the immunity may fade in months. We do not know how long immunity after being exposed to SARS-Cov-2 is yet as it has not been around long enough to build the data, but a number of the other Corona Virus's we do know about which are responsible for some versions of the common cold have their immunity fade in months, which is one of the reasons why you can keep getting colds.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 4th 20, 06:26 PM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 6:15:22 PM UTC-7, GliderCZ wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 3:29:12 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> > > >
> > > > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
> > >
> > > Good point.
> > >
> > > Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
> > >
> > > Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
> > >
> > > It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
> > >
> > > Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
> > >
> > > Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
> > >
> > > Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
> > >
> > > I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
> > >
> > > Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
> > >
> > > But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
> >
> > I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
>
> Expertise and education be damned! We all have Google now!
I fear this might be the attitude of many.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 4th 20, 06:39 PM
On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 12:44:48 AM UTC-7, Mark Morwood wrote:
> On Monday, May 4, 2020 at 12:52:42 PM UTC+10, wrote:
> > From someone in the thread, "Covid may indeed be similar to flu but as you have stated, currently there is no immunity."
> >
> > Maybe I am not following clearly, but I keep hearing we've tested so many hundreds of thousands across the US, and (you choose a number) 10-40% respond as Covid-exposed, and then of those only a smattering need health care, maybe 10%, and of those - 90% recover.
> >
> > If we've been exposed, and are still living, with or without symptoms, aren't we in the process of creating this mystical "herd immunity"? Aren't we creating immunity by fighting off death by Covid?
> >
>
> Not necessarily. Once you've been exposed to some virus's, for example chickenpox, you have life long immunity, for others the immunity may fade in months. We do not know how long immunity after being exposed to SARS-Cov-2 is yet as it has not been around long enough to build the data, but a number of the other Corona Virus's we do know about which are responsible for some versions of the common cold have their immunity fade in months, which is one of the reasons why you can keep getting colds.
I have not had a cold in thirty plus years. Had a few other issues, skeletal/soft tissue from an athletic lifestyle. I credit much of my lack of common colds and flu to not having children. My stress levels are lower, I have more disposable income and free time. I chose whom to be around and with the money I have saved I can hire strippers to care for me when I am old. Got to get your health wherever you can! :) Stay safe out there pilots.
Mike C
May 4th 20, 07:26 PM
On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 9:24:31 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 9:15:22 PM UTC-4, GliderCZ wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 3:29:12 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 3, 2020 at 2:38:55 PM UTC-7, Shaun Wheeler wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:10:57 PM UTC-5, Steve Bralla wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 10:01:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not wearing a face mask. My body my choice. If you are afraid of people without face masks stay scared - at home.
> > > > >
> > > > > Presenting facts to Gregg is no use. He learned all he needs to know when he earned his PHD in infectious diseases at Trump University
> > > >
> > > > Good point.
> > > >
> > > > Anthony S. Fauci has kept his job through four administrations two of which were democrat. He has credentials that at least foster the illusion he's competent at his job.
> > > >
> > > > Three months ahead of the time table he presented we're already at 60K deaths. The advice from the CDC and him haven't just been shades of grey, they've been night and day different.
> > > >
> > > > It's not an emergency. Then....it is an emergency.
> > > >
> > > > Nothing to worry about. Now, worry.
> > > >
> > > > Effects people with "known health issues". Then, can hit kids, major league baseball players who get constant checkups and really, just about anybody.
> > > >
> > > > Domestic pets and wild animals can't get it. Followed by a cat and two lions that got it.
> > > >
> > > > I don't even have an undergraduate degree in medicine but I know when somebody constantly contradicts themselves in videos, well...at least for half of us it raises serious doubts about their credibility.
> > > >
> > > > Each of the things I mentioned above, those were all presented a 'facts' from our government experts.
> > > >
> > > > But you are right and good to hold Gregg to a higher standard. He's clearly not as stupid as Fauci or most liberal forward thinkers.
> > >
> > > I am sorry, I missed it. Could you state again what are your medical credentials, your work experience with infectious decease, and citations to your publications. Also, are you currently working as an MD in the fight against Covid? Or are your musing those of a layman with no training or experience make the calls you are making?
> >
> > Expertise and education be damned! We all have Google now!
>
> If your experts are so expert why are medical mistakes the number 3 killer in America? Politically connected labcoats are charlatans serving something other than the public good. Thankfully people are realizing their own common sense is the only answer. Before you take a Fauci recommendation I suggest you research how well his approval of AZT worked out.
Being a scientist or medical expert is not the same as having metaphysical certainty on life and death issues. Best guesses are the fact of the day and any day based on evolving evidence. Common sense may, at times, be a more accurate assessment of the reality without the tunnel vision of experts grasping for particulars. Life goes on and nature adapts. We are nature.
Steve Bralla
May 5th 20, 04:12 AM
I don't believe doctors because they were wrong once before. How could they be right now?
Tell the 70,000 (today or tomorrow) dead that it's nothing to worry about (unless it's me).
Remember as Stalin said, "One death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic."
> I don't believe doctors because ...
Speaking of doctors, we have Spring checkrides to refresh our brains for flying.
This has shut down elective surgeries. How do you do a checkride for a doc to restart that? Kind of makes the first patients interesting.
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