View Full Version : Re: Mountain flying time...
There are several helo operators that offer training in the mountain
environment there in SoCal. Western Helicopters comes to mind near
Rialto. A couple hours dual in nearly any helicopter in the high
country will give you an insight into the do/don't of mtn flying. Major
difference is in the individual helicopter performance under a given
set of circumstances. I've flown in the Rockies, the Sierras, Cascades,
Andes, Drakensburg and Karoo (So Africa). They all have the same
problems when it comes to flying in the high country.
Ol S&B
Kevin
I, and many other pro pilots I have flown with into some sticky areas
often laughed and asked.."Is this a confined area?"..or "Is this what
is defined as a pinnacle approach/landing?"
We were going into areas that required the utmost of both the aircraft
and the pilot. And, having talked with many pilots who have never seen
such areas, and who were highly skilled pros in their own areas of
expertise, the common response was, "How in hell did you do that?" or,
"Man I'd never do that kind of schitt..."
It boils down to the eye of the beholder. When I landed in areas that I
had to do a slow pedal turn to see if I had clearance and then touch
down, and talk with pilots who required at least 100' clearance to even
consider a landing...it all is relative to either experience, or
company requirements. In my case, I have been flying the past 40 years
in areas that you either performed, or didn't.
Just about the time you think you have the answers, you get to fly with
someone who is doing stuff you never dreamed of possible! When I fly
with someone who has half my hours and can do things I never thought
of, I have to bow my head in admiration and respect. I never stop
learning.
Ol S&B
Steve R.
April 5th 05, 09:09 PM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just about the time you think you have the answers, you get to fly with
> someone who is doing stuff you never dreamed of possible! When I fly
> with someone who has half my hours and can do things I never thought
> of, I have to bow my head in admiration and respect. I never stop
> learning.
> Ol S&B
>
And THAT is the key to becoming a first class pilot. I've met too many guys
through the years that thought their sh** didn't stink because they had some
multi thousands of hours under their belts. Just because someone doesn't
have as many hours in the air, doesn't mean they can't have experiences
beyond what the higher time pilot has. Maybe it's not likely, but as "Ol
S&B" pointed out, it's certainly possible and I think probably more likely
with rotorcraft than fixed wing.
The day you stop learning, is the day you start to die and I think that
applies to a lot more than just aviation!
JMO! :-)
Fly Safe,
Steve R.
Kevin
As an old IFR CFI, I always tell my students that at between the
50%-75% point in the IFR training, they will throw their hands in the
air and scream..."I can't take it anymore...This is too much for me.."
All the time I am laughing outloud and making sure they see me do it
while telling them.."I told you so.."
At some point, it suddenly falls into place and comes together. There
is a lot of info and skill involved in becoming an IFR pilot and its
pretty difficult to do it in a short period of time. The brain is
processing the info and is affected by outside influences like daily
life? So don't be disheartened and keep in mind what I said! And, if
you become a CFII, you'll do well to remember your own frustrations,
and what I said.
It is so sweet to grind around in the goo and when you pop out of the
crud with the centerline right in front of you and all is under control
while you maintain a Mr. Studly cool voice on the radio.... it just
plain feels good.
I think my first actual IFR approach in a helicopter was in 1974 going
into Durban So Africa and it was an NDB. When I popped out of the
bottom of the cloud deck the tower was amazed that it was a helicopter
and they said they had never seen it done before. That was in a 206B
flying for Astra Helicopters at Rand Airport. Pretty straighforward
approach.
As for mountain flying. SoCal has some pretty hostile terrain and few
ever think of it. If you were to check on the numbers of crashes on the
hills east of Brown Field...? Or in the big hills east of LA, or on
Saddleback in Orange County...etc. once you get above about 4500' you
are in serious mountainous terrain and CA is full of such terrain.
I based out of SNA for about 20 years and that was nearly 20 years
ago.. So I guess that makes me a dinosaur. Woahh...<gg>
Ol S&B
Jim Carriere
April 6th 05, 06:17 PM
wrote:
> At some point, it suddenly falls into place and comes together. There
> is a lot of info and skill involved in becoming an IFR pilot and its
> pretty difficult to do it in a short period of time. The brain is
> processing the info and is affected by outside influences like daily
> life?
Here is another pearl of wisdom to lighten things up a bit in IFR
training: Learning to talk on the radios during flight school is
like learning to talk to girls in highschool.
Everybody can relate to that, and if I could go back and do it all
over again, knowing what I know now... :)
Steve R.
April 6th 05, 07:19 PM
"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message ...
> On 5 Apr 2005 09:16:59 -0700, wrote:
>
> I have to agree with you wholeheartedly about the "continuing
> education" aspect of flying. Right now, I feel like I've taken 3
> stpes back since I got my ticket. This instrument stuff is really
> making me feel like I don't know a damned thing. My CFII says I'm
> pretty smooth for so few hours under the hood, but it sure doesn't
> look that way to me. Then again, when I was struggling with
> approaches several months ago, I thought I'd never get 'em figured
> out..
>
>
Out of curiosity, Kevin, did you get much hood time during your primary
training? The instructor I had when I got my fixed wing license was a big
believer in throwing in a couple of tenths of hood time almost every time we
flew but I don't remember you mentioning it all your writings. Maybe I
missed one?
Just curious.
Fly Safe,
Steve R.
Kevin
I envy your position and ability to do some good sim time on a regular?
basis. Nothing could be better. I teach my students first - how to fly
the aircraft so they can do it nearly in their sleep. THEN and ONLY
then do I start in with IFR procedures and approaches. I believe if
they can't fly the machine without having to think about it, they sure
as hell aren't ready to confound the problems with the mental
gymnastics of a hard nosed approach to minimums. Then you can couple
that with the inevitable wind switch or a severe WX change that
requires you to suddenly switch to a different approach while you are
already geared for the one you are on and it requires you dig out the
proper approach chart (I still don't know where the term "Plate" ever
came from?), fly the machine, and follow directions all the while
trying to keep your Pax calm and not make the ice tinkle in their
glasses...YeeHawwww
Are we having fun yet? It'll work out and look at all the hair raising
fun you have to look forward to! <ggg>
I can still smile when I break out on an ILS and calmly ask, "Which
side of the line am I on?"
Smart assed Ol Shy & Bashful with well over 1200 hrs of actual IFR
logged and a lot of hood and sim time
Kevin
I like the heheh...as they say, if you can do what you say you can do
you ain't braggin...?
My X used to say I was guilty of boastful arrogance and perhaps she is
right? Hmmmm she never complained when I landed on the top of the truck
with inches of clearance for the skids and even took videos.
Ol S&B
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
> On 8 Apr 2005 06:04:43 -0700, wrote:
>
> >Kevin
> >I like the heheh...as they say, if you can do what you say you can
do
> >you ain't braggin...?
>
> So you say. <g>
>
> >My X used to say I was guilty of boastful arrogance and perhaps she
is
> >right? Hmmmm she never complained when I landed on the top of the
truck
> >with inches of clearance for the skids and even took videos.
> >Ol S&B
>
> ok, now you're braggin' again.. eheheh
>
> (I wanna see the video)
Kevin
It's really no big deal when you are crop spraying with helicopters. We
use a truck for the loading platform/mixing rig and land crossways on
the top of the truck. Tell you what...you send me a pvt address and
I'll send you some pics. I can't imagine how many thousands of landings
I've done on top of a truck right up to a few weeks ago. It was parked
on top of a ridge on a logging road in SW Oregon. Probably 40 feet from
edge to edge? It was narrow enough that we had to find a "landing" to
get turned around with either the pickups or the loading rig. Wind gets
to blowing and it gets kind of interesting under those conditions.
Ol S&B
SHIVER ME TIMBERS
April 8th 05, 06:01 PM
> > wrote:
> It's really no big deal when you are crop spraying with helicopters. We
> use a truck for the loading platform/mixing rig and land crossways on
> the top of the truck.
Saw an interesting program the other night on plagues of grasshoppers
in Australia starting from the larvae stage to final days as adults.
They showed the lengths the government went through to try to control
these pests including massive aerial spraying programs mainly with
fixed wing. Interesting to see high wing Cessnas with spray booms doing
low level spraying.
Curious question Mr. Selway.... What type of helicopter were you using
to do the spraying and basically how long would a load last before you
had to refil.
I would presume that a safety feature of landing on a truck would be
that nobody on the ground would be in danger of being clipped by a
rotor, and the only people on the truck would be those directly needed
to refuel the helicopter and refil the hoppers.
If you feel up to describing a day in the life I'm sure the folks here
would be interested in reading about your adventures.
Last but not least if you would consider posting those pictures to
alt.binaries.pictures.aviation then we'd all get to have a peek.
SHIVER ME TIMBERS wrote:
> > > wrote:
>
> > It's really no big deal when you are crop spraying with
helicopters. We
> > use a truck for the loading platform/mixing rig and land crossways
on
> > the top of the truck.
>
> Saw an interesting program the other night on plagues of grasshoppers
> in Australia starting from the larvae stage to final days as adults.
>
> They showed the lengths the government went through to try to control
> these pests including massive aerial spraying programs mainly with
> fixed wing. Interesting to see high wing Cessnas with spray booms
doing
> low level spraying.
>
> Curious question Mr. Selway.... What type of helicopter were you
using
> to do the spraying and basically how long would a load last before
you
> had to refil.
Shiver....
A truck nurse rig is my preferance for a number of reasons. It keeps
you up off the ground where you aren't fighting with the dust and blade
erosion, and it keeps your loading crew out of it as well. I did an
analysis years ago for Ag Pilot magazine about a typical hour of
helicopter ag work and it went kind of like this....
In each hour, you'll make a landing on top of the truck, which is by
nature, a precision landing placing your skids within 6" of a
designated spot, and do so probably 10 times per hour. Each takeoff
will be at or over max gross (yes its allowable in the restricted
catagory) in little or no wind, and with temps in the 80's or
thereabouts. Of course it will depend on the time of year, but summer
spraying is going to be hotter. Nearly always, there will be no wind to
affect spray drift so the conditions are at the worst for helicopters
(and airplanes).
The average spray load will take :06 minutes for each cycle from load
to off to load and off again. The average spray run is about :15
seconds and the spray turnaround will take about :07 seconds. This is
to make a 180 and place the spray boom within 12" of the last spray run
to make sure you have coverage without skips. Speed must be controlled
so the spray coverage is consistent. That amounts to making about 200
pull ups and turnarounds each hour and at least half of them are going
to be near something like trees, wires, buildings, equipment, towers,
or something else that can ruin your life, etc. On average, a load will
be about 100 gallons of chemical mix in helicopters. Some spray
requires as little as 2 gallons per acre, to over 50 gallons per acre.
Most of my spray was either 5 or 10 gallons per acre.
Combine that with the constant awareness of drift and other factors
that can affect your spraying job, not to mention people who are going
to stop and watch and then complain they got sprayed when they smell
the chemicals. I have had to explain, "Just because you can smell a bad
odor from the bathroom doesn't mean you got it on you..."
The skills required of spray pilots are not often discussed. Flying is
only a part of it. In addition to the FAA licenses, we also have to
take exams for the individual states/counties covering such things as
laws and regulations, agriculture, plants, insects, herbicides,
pesticides, acaricides, aquacides, rodenticides, growth regulators,
equipment calibration, an infinitum. The tests will often require not
only an appointment, but a hefty test fee and are done on a yearly
basis.
Working off the truck nurse rig is not partucularly difficult but takes
a different skill level and technique than working off the ground. Each
has its own series of problems. My preference is from the top of the
nurse rig.
There have been days when I made over 140 take offs and landings from
the top of the truck and spent more than 10-12 hours in the cockpit. I
could barely walk when I got out. The concentration required is more
tiring than the physical and the physical is as bad as digging a ditch
all day. Not uncommon for my hands to be so swollen in the morning I
had a hard time making a fist. At last count, I have been licensed in
12 states in the USA, and have worked in 26 foreign countries with a
foreign pilot license issued in at least 15 of them.
If I could get some help in posting pics, I'd be glad to. Not too sharp
in that regard. I'd be happy to share the pics of night spraying but
you can't see much...<ggg>
Rocky aka Ol S&B
> I would presume that a safety feature of landing on a truck would be
> that nobody on the ground would be in danger of being clipped by a
> rotor, and the only people on the truck would be those directly
needed
> to refuel the helicopter and refil the hoppers.
>
> If you feel up to describing a day in the life I'm sure the folks
here
> would be interested in reading about your adventures.
>
> Last but not least if you would consider posting those pictures to
> alt.binaries.pictures.aviation then we'd all get to have a peek.
SHIVER ME TIMBERS
April 8th 05, 07:25 PM
> > wrote:
> There have been days when I made over 140 take offs and landings from
> the top of the truck and spent more than 10-12 hours in the cockpit. I
> could barely walk when I got out.
Well Rocky as they say the grass always looks greener on the other side
of the fence.
I'm sure many people watching you at work, or reading little snippets
in a newsgroup would sit back and think gee that looks like a neat way
to make a living. Or something like.... well that doesn't look too
hard, look he just sits there and does the same thing all day long.
Thanks for sharing the story, I'm sure you have opened a lot of eyes
today. Don't know what they pay you for this, it probably isn't enough,
and you certainly earn every penny of it.
What is the steed of choice for doing this sort of work. I presume it's
a turbine.
Well, turbine is generally the choice and most operators are going that
route when they can afford to make the move. However, I can think of a
couple of piston helicopters that I flew for years alongside the
turbines and did the same productivity. The Hiller 12E, the Bell 47
TomCat conversion are two I know of. When the temps got up in the 80's
I could keep on working while they had to drop their loads down to
avoid overtemping.
I like the turbines for dependability but they are not that much more
productive in warm weather. But, having said that, when the temps get
cool and comes time for bucket work and fertilizing, the turbines
outwork the pistons hands down. There are pros and cons for each the
piston vs the turbines and eventually the pistons will be history. If
there are any great distances to travel, its a matter of balancing out
costs whether or not to trailer the helicopter, take the blades off or
not, vs ferry. If weather is a factor you need to figure out if you
should fly to the next job to get it sprayed, or lose the time in
trailering and perhaps lose the weather and not get the job done at
all. I have worked in areas where it was an easy :15 minute ferry but
the nurse rig had to travel 35-40 miles on the road to get to the job
site. There is so much more to it than most realize.
The only thing more fun than watching a spray pilot work is to be doing
it yourself!
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.