Comanche accident averted last evening

[[email protected]]

Just another day of flying in the bay area yesterday - or so I thought.
It was past 7:45 pm. Beautiful evening sunset. Winds 330@12. No gusts.
No turbulence. I was on my third touch and go. A Comanche was inbound
and cleared to land on RWY31. I was cleared for the option (number two)
and requested a short approach. On right downwind, Tower instructed me
to do a Left 360 for separation with the Comanche so as to enable my
"short approach" request. After the 360, I re-entered midfield right
downwind and saw the Comanche go past the numbers... just beginning her
flare. At that very moment, Tower in a very calm (yet urgent) tone said
"No gear. Go around. No landing gear Comanche x-x-Yankee. Go around
now!". My eyes were popping out of my sockets as I saw the Comanche
pull away into the air with less than ten feet distance from the
runway. As I pulled my throttle and descended a few seconds later, I
heard the Comanche pilot thank the controller as he flew the pattern...
his voice shaking in disbelief. He said he did everything he usually
does... not sure how or why he missed extending the landing gear. I
don't think he slept well in the night. Thankfully, plane & pilot got
away without harm.

I have a new level of respect for ATC after what happened today. And an
even higher level of respect for Checklists!

- Aman

[kontiki]

Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
idea for GA also.

It usually takes a while to get a Comanche slowed down enough so extending
the gear is more of a necessity. I usually keep my speed up pretty well
until closing in on the field which practically forces me to reach for the
gear lever to get slowed down enough. But things such as long straight in
approaches, or getting slowed down further out can lull you into a sense
of comfort. There's just no substitute for doing the GUMPS check religiously.

[Joe Johnson]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
> with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
> idea for GA also.
>
So that's why they do it at KFOK (Gabreski/Suffolk County, NY). Doing touch
& goes there in a fixed-gear Cessna 172, ATC told me "check gear down" each
time. I must have sounded a little snotty when I replied, "I couldn't raise
the gear if I wanted to." On the other hand, I've never heard that at KSTW
and KBAF, which are also mixed-use GA/military fields.

[Dan Girellini]

kontiki > writes:

> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
> with the landing clearance...

Do you have to positively ack the gear down instruction?

D.

--
PGP key at http://www.longhands.org/drg-pgp.txt Key Id:0x507D93DF

[[email protected]]

Nothing worse than that sinking feeling just before you hear the
tortured sound of metal on the runway. Then discovering you have to use
full power to taxi......
I've made it a habit to do a "short final Checklist"...levers forward,
gear down and locked. It has saved me from that embarassing sinking
feeling a couple times while distracted on short final.
Ol S&B

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> Then discovering you have to use
> full power to taxi......

When I first checked out in a retract, I kept having these nightmarish
thoughts "did I remember to lower the gear". This was usually as I was
driving away from the airport.

I mentioned this once to a fellow club member that's also a CFI, and he
responded with "did you need full power to taxi?".

I've no idea why, but I find this incredibly funny.

- Andrew

[Gene Seibel]

They do it at KSTJ. The Air National Guard operates the tower there.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Jose]

> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
> with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
> idea for GA also.

There's a field in Southern California (Burbank? Van Nuys?) that has
the word "Wheels" painted near the numbers at the approach end.

Jose
r.a.student retained, though I don't follow the group
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[John Galban]

Dan Girellini wrote:
>
> Do you have to positively ack the gear down instruction?

The first time I flew into a military base(in a 172), I got spooked
by the "check gear down" reminder. I thought that maybe the tower
knew something I didn't, so I actually looked out the window to verify
that my gear was still there.

Now when they say "check gear down" I just reply, "gear down and
welded in place".

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Matt Whiting]

kontiki wrote:

> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
> with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
> idea for GA also.

Yes, even if you have fixed gear. I landed at Springfield, OH many
years ago and got that admonition with my clearance. I resisted the
urge to reply with the old "down and welded" cliche. Now that I fly a
retract, I agree it wouldn't be a bad idea at all for GA.


Matt

[Ben Jackson]

On 2005-04-07, Andrew Gideon > wrote:
> When I first checked out in a retract, I kept having these nightmarish
> thoughts "did I remember to lower the gear". This was usually as I was
> driving away from the airport.

Same here. That nonsensical pang of "did I land gear up???" 10 minutes
after you've pushed the plane into the hangar is very odd.

I'm amazed that people manage to land Comanches gear up. Vle is higher
than Vfe and if you don't use the gear to slow down to flap speed you
have to pull off a lot more power. Every time I've ever gotten my
configuration wrong (during IFR training, for example) the fact that my
performance isn't what I expected led me to figure out what was wrong.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Robert Chambers]

Yes, FOK has a large ANG contingent so they always give you the "check
gear down, cleared to land" - in a fixed gear it's kind of funny but if
you transition to retractable, you may well appreciate that bit of wording.

FOK has a good resturant too, all the more reason!

Joe Johnson wrote:

> "kontiki" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
>>with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
>>idea for GA also.
>>
>
> So that's why they do it at KFOK (Gabreski/Suffolk County, NY). Doing touch
> & goes there in a fixed-gear Cessna 172, ATC told me "check gear down" each
> time. I must have sounded a little snotty when I replied, "I couldn't raise
> the gear if I wanted to." On the other hand, I've never heard that at KSTW
> and KBAF, which are also mixed-use GA/military fields.
>
>

[BTIZ]

the tower may not have been so concerned about the gear up landing.. and
depending on locations etc... the tower operator may not be able to see the
gear... like looking towards final into a setting sun...

he just did not want his runway closed.... LOL

Good call on the tower operator... I'd bet he has saved more than one runway
closure from a gearless aircraft.

BT


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just another day of flying in the bay area yesterday - or so I thought.
> It was past 7:45 pm. Beautiful evening sunset. Winds 330@12. No gusts.
> No turbulence. I was on my third touch and go. A Comanche was inbound
> and cleared to land on RWY31. I was cleared for the option (number two)
> and requested a short approach. On right downwind, Tower instructed me
> to do a Left 360 for separation with the Comanche so as to enable my
> "short approach" request. After the 360, I re-entered midfield right
> downwind and saw the Comanche go past the numbers... just beginning her
> flare. At that very moment, Tower in a very calm (yet urgent) tone said
> "No gear. Go around. No landing gear Comanche x-x-Yankee. Go around
> now!". My eyes were popping out of my sockets as I saw the Comanche
> pull away into the air with less than ten feet distance from the
> runway. As I pulled my throttle and descended a few seconds later, I
> heard the Comanche pilot thank the controller as he flew the pattern...
> his voice shaking in disbelief. He said he did everything he usually
> does... not sure how or why he missed extending the landing gear. I
> don't think he slept well in the night. Thankfully, plane & pilot got
> away without harm.
>
> I have a new level of respect for ATC after what happened today. And an
> even higher level of respect for Checklists!
>
> - Aman
>

[Highflyer]

"Dan Girellini" > wrote in message
...
> kontiki > writes:
>
>> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
>> with the landing clearance...
>
> Do you have to positively ack the gear down instruction?
>
> D.
>

No. You can if you want to though! :-) I used to fly a Seabee. You want
the gear UP for a water landing and the gear DOWN for a runway landing. I
used to announce "This is a WATER landing. The landing gear is UP" and then
look out my window at the gear and look at it and then say "My landing gear
is UP." For a land landing I would make suitable adjustments. Sometimes
passengers looked at me funny, but I never landed with the gear in the wrong
position! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Highflyer]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Nothing worse than that sinking feeling just before you hear the
> tortured sound of metal on the runway. Then discovering you have to use
> full power to taxi......
> I've made it a habit to do a "short final Checklist"...levers forward,
> gear down and locked. It has saved me from that embarassing sinking
> feeling a couple times while distracted on short final.

> Ol S&B
>

I remember many years ago we had a Bonanza land. He was going to retract
the flaps on rollout and hit the gear switch instead. Then a bump in the
runway lifted him off the "squat switch" and the gear instantly retracted
putting him on his belly.

We notified the FAA and they send an inspector down from the GADO ( now
FSDO ). He flew over to our airport in one of the FAA's light twins. And
proceeded to land gear up! We gave him a bad time about having to send
another inspector down to investigate HIS gear up landing! He was a mite
embarassed. :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )





Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Ron Natalie]

Robert Chambers wrote:
> Yes, FOK has a large ANG contingent so they always give you the "check
> gear down, cleared to land" - in a fixed gear it's kind of funny but if
> you transition to retractable, you may well appreciate that bit of wording.
>

Yep, I learned from the National Guard pilots to make my report with the
"Gear Down":
27K Left Base, Gear Down.
That usually staves off them asking.

[Ron Natalie]

Highflyer wrote:
>
> No. You can if you want to though! :-) I used to fly a Seabee. You want
> the gear UP for a water landing and the gear DOWN for a runway landing. I
> used to announce "This is a WATER landing. The landing gear is UP" and then
> look out my window at the gear and look at it and then say "My landing gear
> is UP." For a land landing I would make suitable adjustments. Sometimes
> passengers looked at me funny, but I never landed with the gear in the wrong
> position! :-)
>In the seabee it's a bigger deal to land gear down in the water than
gear up on the land. Just a little scraping and difficulty with taxi.

[[email protected]]

Highflyer
The story about 'Water Landing" is about the same checklist when I was
doing SES instruction in a LA-4. I laughed at the section on insurance
forms when it says, Have you ever made a gear up landing? and my reply
was "Yes, hundreds of times."
Had a GADO inspector (does that tell you how long back that was?) come
in to inspect a minor crop dusting crash (mine). The stud duck came
into our strip with a Bonanza. Landed OK. It was a 1200' grass strip.
When he left, he taxied to the end of a one way strip and began the
take off. I ran out and waved my arms in a vigorous fashion and he
aborted the takeoff. I pointed at the powerlines and he smiled in a
bashful fashion and took off the opposite direction. The inspector who
came in next was in a Citabria and landed over the powerlines, then
proceeded to flip the airplane upside down! We never got much heat from
the GADO after that..... was in 1968, SHV GADO so they are long gone.
Ol S&B
Highflyer wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Nothing worse than that sinking feeling just before you hear the
> > tortured sound of metal on the runway. Then discovering you have to
use
> > full power to taxi......
> > I've made it a habit to do a "short final Checklist"...levers
forward,
> > gear down and locked. It has saved me from that embarassing sinking
> > feeling a couple times while distracted on short final.
>
> > Ol S&B
> >
>
> I remember many years ago we had a Bonanza land. He was going to
retract
> the flaps on rollout and hit the gear switch instead. Then a bump in
the
> runway lifted him off the "squat switch" and the gear instantly
retracted
> putting him on his belly.
>
> We notified the FAA and they send an inspector down from the GADO (
now
> FSDO ). He flew over to our airport in one of the FAA's light twins.
And
> proceeded to land gear up! We gave him a bad time about having to
send
> another inspector down to investigate HIS gear up landing! He was a
mite
> embarassed. :-)
>
> Highflyer
> Highflight Aviation Services
> Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
>
>
>
>
>
> Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Highflyer]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Highflyer wrote:
>>
>> No. You can if you want to though! :-) I used to fly a Seabee. You
>> want the gear UP for a water landing and the gear DOWN for a runway
>> landing. I used to announce "This is a WATER landing. The landing gear
>> is UP" and then look out my window at the gear and look at it and then
>> say "My landing gear is UP." For a land landing I would make suitable
>> adjustments. Sometimes passengers looked at me funny, but I never landed
>> with the gear in the wrong position! :-)
>>In the seabee it's a bigger deal to land gear down in the water than
> gear up on the land. Just a little scraping and difficulty with taxi.
>
>

That is very true. Any amphibian, even amphibious floats, when landed on
water with the wheels down will generally make for a real "slam dunk" and
the airplane will do its best to emulate a submarine.

Any amphibian, landing on land with the wheels up, will generally scrape a
bit off the keels and scratch a little paint if you land on pavement and
likely won't do a thing if you land on grass.

We used to land airplanes on straight floats on the grass every fall to
change them over to wheels or skis for the winter. In the spring we would
put the floats back on and take off either with a dolly that stayed on the
runway, or off of wet grass!

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Highflyer]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Highflyer
> The story about 'Water Landing" is about the same checklist when I was
> doing SES instruction in a LA-4. I laughed at the section on insurance
> forms when it says, Have you ever made a gear up landing? and my reply
> was "Yes, hundreds of times."
> Had a GADO inspector (does that tell you how long back that was?) come
> in to inspect a minor crop dusting crash (mine). The stud duck came
> into our strip with a Bonanza. Landed OK. It was a 1200' grass strip.
> When he left, he taxied to the end of a one way strip and began the
> take off. I ran out and waved my arms in a vigorous fashion and he
> aborted the takeoff. I pointed at the powerlines and he smiled in a
> bashful fashion and took off the opposite direction. The inspector who
> came in next was in a Citabria and landed over the powerlines, then
> proceeded to flip the airplane upside down! We never got much heat from
> the GADO after that..... was in 1968, SHV GADO so they are long gone.
> Ol S&B

I bought that Seabee from a guy who kept it on Lake Bistaneau. I traded him
a Stits Playmate for it.

I taught myself how to fly instruments with no gyros one morning coming out
of Marshall, Texas when I flew into a fog bank that was kind of hidden in
the trees at the end of the runway. It gets your attention when you have NO
instruments and you get whited out at 50 feet AGL. It makes a good hangar
flying story! You CAN keep the wings level with nothing but a magnetic
compass in you know your airplane and are heading south! :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Dave]

More than true..

I had a friend who, several years ago, landed his 185 with
the Amphib wheels down..

An instant "face plant" that he barley escaped from with his
life (both doors jambed)

A detail missed on a combination land/water circuit that,
fortunately only cost him the aircraft...

Dave


On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:43:08 -0500, "Highflyer" > wrote:

>
>"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>> Highflyer wrote:
>>>
>>> No. You can if you want to though! :-) I used to fly a Seabee. You
>>> want the gear UP for a water landing and the gear DOWN for a runway
>>> landing. I used to announce "This is a WATER landing. The landing gear
>>> is UP" and then look out my window at the gear and look at it and then
>>> say "My landing gear is UP." For a land landing I would make suitable
>>> adjustments. Sometimes passengers looked at me funny, but I never landed
>>> with the gear in the wrong position! :-)
>>>In the seabee it's a bigger deal to land gear down in the water than
>> gear up on the land. Just a little scraping and difficulty with taxi.
>>
>>
>
>That is very true. Any amphibian, even amphibious floats, when landed on
>water with the wheels down will generally make for a real "slam dunk" and
>the airplane will do its best to emulate a submarine.
>
>Any amphibian, landing on land with the wheels up, will generally scrape a
>bit off the keels and scratch a little paint if you land on pavement and
>likely won't do a thing if you land on grass.
>
>We used to land airplanes on straight floats on the grass every fall to
>change them over to wheels or skis for the winter. In the spring we would
>put the floats back on and take off either with a dolly that stayed on the
>runway, or off of wet grass!
>
>Highflyer
>Highflight Aviation Services
>Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
>

[Capt.Doug]

<noflapsatgmail.com> wrote in message > I have a new level of respect for
ATC >after what happened today. And an
> even higher level of respect for Checklists!

ATC policy in this region is to notify the FAA FSDO of the incident. They in
turn mail out a form with which to self-incriminate one's self.

D.

[aluckyguess]

I did a check ride in a 172 this week in Honolulu and when we went over to
another airport to do a couple touch and goes they said the gear down thing.
I thought it was odd.
"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Towers at military fields issue a "check gear down" instruction along
> with the landing clearance... I always thought that would be a good
> idea for GA also.
>
> It usually takes a while to get a Comanche slowed down enough so extending
> the gear is more of a necessity. I usually keep my speed up pretty well
> until closing in on the field which practically forces me to reach for the
> gear lever to get slowed down enough. But things such as long straight in
> approaches, or getting slowed down further out can lull you into a sense
> of comfort. There's just no substitute for doing the GUMPS check
> religiously.
>

[Roger]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:02:18 -0500, "Highflyer" > wrote:

>
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Nothing worse than that sinking feeling just before you hear the
>> tortured sound of metal on the runway. Then discovering you have to use
>> full power to taxi......
>> I've made it a habit to do a "short final Checklist"...levers forward,
>> gear down and locked. It has saved me from that embarassing sinking
>> feeling a couple times while distracted on short final.

Checklists are good. Ok, almost a necessity, but there is one thing
they can't do and that is keep you from forgetting to put the gear
down every time. There is such a thing as conditioning. We see what
we expect and react accordingly. When I was getting checked out in
the Deb, the insurance company required 25 hours dual(or I think it
was...been a while). I had been doing air work, lots of take offs
and landings, instrument work, (lots of hood work), emergency
procedures (51 turns to get the gear down) and to crank the gear down
you have to lean back between the seats. You can see the instruments,
but absolutely nothing outside and it takes nearly 3 minutes to crank
that sucker down.

I had been expecting the instructor to pull the breaker, but hours had
gone by with nary a touch. We were coming back in from a good
instrument work out. I entered the pattern and turned down wind. A
touch of flaps to help slow us, then hit the gear switch near the end
of the runway outbound. (GU[green light and nose gear pointer
down]MP) Coming up on base I was having a devil of a time slowing to
90, but with a bit of flaps and work I had 90 on base with 80 on
final. I did a GUMP on base and final as well. I even did a 100 foot
gear check.

As we came over the numbers and I started easing the nose up I was
greeted by a loud, obnoxious (cheap sounding) alarm. My hand
automatically went to the throttle so I could regroup my thoughts at a
more leisurely pace.

I not only had missed the tell tale deceleration which feels like you
put on the brakes when the gear comes down, I had pointed to the green
light for the mains, *identified* it as lit, pointed to the nose gear
indicator and identified it as down *FOUR* times if you count the 100
foot gear check. BTW you are still 30 to 40 feet up when you start
the round out in the Deb.

Even though the green light was not lit I identified it as being so.
Even though the nose gear pointer was up, I looked at it and
identified it as down. I saw what I had been conditioned to expect.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>> Ol S&B
>>
>
>I remember many years ago we had a Bonanza land. He was going to retract
>the flaps on rollout and hit the gear switch instead. Then a bump in the
>runway lifted him off the "squat switch" and the gear instantly retracted
>putting him on his belly.

Contrary to popular belief this is almost as common in other retracts
as well.
>
>We notified the FAA and they send an inspector down from the GADO ( now
>FSDO ). He flew over to our airport in one of the FAA's light twins. And
>proceeded to land gear up! We gave him a bad time about having to send
>another inspector down to investigate HIS gear up landing! He was a mite
>embarassed. :-)
>
>Highflyer
>Highflight Aviation Services
>Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
>
>
>
>
>
>Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
>