Looking for a reversible fuel transfer pump

[[email protected]]

I have a 12Gal aux tank that I want to be able to transfer fuel TO and
FROM my main tank. For simplicity and lightness, I'd prefer to use a
single reversible pump on a single fuel line ... along with a solenoid
shutoff valve in series to prevent gravity flow when off.

There are cheapo plastic pumps available at a hardware store that would
"do the job" but I wouldn't consider using one in an airplane. Yet I
can't seem to find a QUALITY 12V reversible gear pump rated for
gasoline. (I did find a few for oil and diesel at aptly-named
reversopumps.com.)

Anybody know of one? Pump capacity isn't critical, but would like it
to be at least 3GPM.

Thanks,
Greg

P.S. I say "gear pump" above because virtually all gear pumps are
reversible by virtue of their construction, whereas other styles
usually are not. But I'm not hung up on a gear pump as long as it can
pump in both directions.

[Juan Jimenez]

Would it not be easier (and probably cheaper) to find a valve that can
switch input and output?

Juan

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have a 12Gal aux tank that I want to be able to transfer fuel TO and
> FROM my main tank. For simplicity and lightness, I'd prefer to use a
> single reversible pump on a single fuel line ... along with a solenoid
> shutoff valve in series to prevent gravity flow when off.
>
> There are cheapo plastic pumps available at a hardware store that would
> "do the job" but I wouldn't consider using one in an airplane. Yet I
> can't seem to find a QUALITY 12V reversible gear pump rated for
> gasoline. (I did find a few for oil and diesel at aptly-named
> reversopumps.com.)
>
> Anybody know of one? Pump capacity isn't critical, but would like it
> to be at least 3GPM.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
> P.S. I say "gear pump" above because virtually all gear pumps are
> reversible by virtue of their construction, whereas other styles
> usually are not. But I'm not hung up on a gear pump as long as it can
> pump in both directions.
>

[[email protected]]

Ya, that's another option. I doubt it'd be CHEAPER or LIGHTER than a
reversing pump, but if I can't find a reversing pump then such a valve
may be my ONLY option. So OK, I'll bite:

Where can I get a quality valve that supports swapping of inputs and
outputs, and will handle gasoline?

I actually had this drawn up long ago with a standard 4-way valve (such
as used with fuel-injection), a pair of one-way check valves, and lots
of interconnects. It seemed to be overly complicated. I can't find
that sketch now, tho' I'm sure I can recreate it with a little thought.

If there's a purpose-made valve for this, that would be GREAT.

Thanks,
Greg

[Juan Jimenez]

Maybe this will work.

http://www.reversopumps.com/valve_assemblies.html

I think these folks have the reversing pumps as well....

http://www.reversopumps.com/downloads/Reverso_Pumps_Industrial.pdf

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ya, that's another option. I doubt it'd be CHEAPER or LIGHTER than a
> reversing pump, but if I can't find a reversing pump then such a valve
> may be my ONLY option. So OK, I'll bite:
>
> Where can I get a quality valve that supports swapping of inputs and
> outputs, and will handle gasoline?
>
> I actually had this drawn up long ago with a standard 4-way valve (such
> as used with fuel-injection), a pair of one-way check valves, and lots
> of interconnects. It seemed to be overly complicated. I can't find
> that sketch now, tho' I'm sure I can recreate it with a little thought.
>
> If there's a purpose-made valve for this, that would be GREAT.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>

[Juan Jimenez]

Geez, I just read your original message and saw you had been to
reversopumps.com already. Had you seen that valve already?

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ya, that's another option. I doubt it'd be CHEAPER or LIGHTER than a
> reversing pump, but if I can't find a reversing pump then such a valve
> may be my ONLY option. So OK, I'll bite:
>
> Where can I get a quality valve that supports swapping of inputs and
> outputs, and will handle gasoline?
>
> I actually had this drawn up long ago with a standard 4-way valve (such
> as used with fuel-injection), a pair of one-way check valves, and lots
> of interconnects. It seemed to be overly complicated. I can't find
> that sketch now, tho' I'm sure I can recreate it with a little thought.
>
> If there's a purpose-made valve for this, that would be GREAT.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>

[[email protected]]

Yup, I'd been to reversopumps.com early in my quest, and subsequently
contacted them as to whether gasoline was supported. They responded
quite quickly: Nope. (Actually, it says this in their FAQ section too.
But diesel would be OK.)

Meanwhile, I re-drew the "plumbing circuit" using a single
non-reversible pump and a duplex valve (e.g. an FS22-D2). It's not all
that complicated ... but the valves is very $expensive. And I'd really
like to be able to do this electrically rather than mechanically.

So I've also been researching solenoid-actuated valves, and have put in
some inquiries to several of the manufacturers as to their suitability
for gasoline. I can obviously do it with a set of four 2-way solenoid
valves, or with a pair of 3-way valves and a 2-way.

But the #1 choice would still be a reversible pump for gasoline ...
along with an on-off 2-way solenoid in series if necessary.

Thanks,
Greg

[Morgans]

>
> So I've also been researching solenoid-actuated valves, and have put in
> some inquiries to several of the manufacturers as to their suitability
> for gasoline. I can obviously do it with a set of four 2-way solenoid
> valves, or with a pair of 3-way valves and a 2-way.

IMHO, a setup like you describe has too many possible points of failure.
Better off with the mechanical valve, for reliability.
--
Jim in NC

[Rob Turk]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I have a 12Gal aux tank that I want to be able to transfer fuel TO and
> FROM my main tank. For simplicity and lightness, I'd prefer to use a
> single reversible pump on a single fuel line ... along with a solenoid
> shutoff valve in series to prevent gravity flow when off.
>

You should be able to do this with two simple left-right switch valves.
Doesn't cost much and it's quite light.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/whfsv.php

Rob

[Smitty]

In article om>,
wrote:

> I have a 12Gal aux tank that I want to be able to transfer fuel TO and
> FROM my main tank. For simplicity and lightness, I'd prefer to use a
> single reversible pump on a single fuel line ... along with a solenoid
> shutoff valve in series to prevent gravity flow when off.
>
> There are cheapo plastic pumps available at a hardware store that would
> "do the job" but I wouldn't consider using one in an airplane. Yet I
> can't seem to find a QUALITY 12V reversible gear pump rated for
> gasoline. (I did find a few for oil and diesel at aptly-named
> reversopumps.com.)
>
> Anybody know of one? Pump capacity isn't critical, but would like it
> to be at least 3GPM.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
> P.S. I say "gear pump" above because virtually all gear pumps are
> reversible by virtue of their construction, whereas other styles
> usually are not. But I'm not hung up on a gear pump as long as it can
> pump in both directions.

have you looked in the cole parmer catalog? they distribute laboratory
and industrial grades of things like that, but i don't know whether
they'd have exactly what you want. a quick peek at their website does
show some 12 vdc gear pumps.

[Jim Carriere]

Richard Riley wrote:
> that's one of the nice things about gear pumps. I'm using one for an
> oil based cabin heater, I can't easily check to see if it's
> reversable, but a phone call to them should answer it.

I've been toying with that idea for a while. You mean engine oil,
right? Are such things at all common? I guess what I most wonder is
why, on GA aircraft with aircooled engines, are exhaust heat muffs
and/or fuel fired heaters commonplace. Which is worse, the
possibility of CO in the cabin or hot oil in the cabin (and possible
loss of powerplant lubrication)?

Seems to me that safety/reliability issues can be addressed by using
quality parts and design. The functionality issue is maintaining the
oil at operating temp, on a cold day or fast/high cruise, when cabin
heat is most needed and the engine does not want to run hot (cowl
flaps?).

In other words, what am I missing? Thoughts anyone?

[[email protected]]

X-No-Archive: yes

Jim Carriere wrote:
> I've been toying with that idea for a while. You mean engine oil,
> right?

Yes

> Are such things at all common?

No, they are very uncommon.

>I guess what I most wonder is
> why, on GA aircraft with aircooled engines, are exhaust heat muffs
> and/or fuel fired heaters commonplace.

Intentionally having a gasoline fire in the cabin was never my favorite

> Which is worse, the
> possibility of CO in the cabin or hot oil in the cabin (and possible
> loss of powerplant lubrication)?

Velocity does it as a standard thing, they put their main oil cooler in
the nose an pipe hot oil to it from the engine. That always made me
nervous, though they haven't had a problem with it, and they put the
hose in conduit. I'm using an electric pump instead. I'm running much
lower pressure (just enough to overcome the friction of the oil moving
in the hose) and if it springs a leak, I can turn it off.

I'm also drawing oil from the side of the sump. There's space beneath
it for about 3 quarts, and another quart or so is in the upper part of
the case during flight. Lycoming says the engine can run without
damage on 2 quarts total.

In the worst case - a fitting fails just downstream from the pump, and
dumps oil in the back seat where I wont see it - the system will only
dump 2 quarts before the port is uncovered.

>
> Seems to me that safety/reliability issues can be addressed by using
> quality parts and design. The functionality issue is maintaining the

> oil at operating temp, on a cold day or fast/high cruise, when cabin
> heat is most needed and the engine does not want to run hot (cowl
> flaps?).

When you're high cooling actually gets harder, because the air is thin.
The vernatherm will progressively cut off the main oil cooler as the
engine runs colder, but my cabin heat exchanger is only about 20% of
the size of the main. And my pump is putting out about 30-50% of the
volume of the engine oil pump. So I *think* that the total heat I'm
scavanging is not significant. If I find a part of the envelope where
it is (ultra-cold day, low power setting, low altitude) I can turn it
off, and I'm no worse off that I would be without it.

>
> In other words, what am I missing? Thoughts anyone?

[Jim Carriere]

wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
<pretty thorough explanation>

Hmm... neat! thanks for answering my question so well. It would
seem to me that you really did your homework. In particular I like
the idea of drawing from the side, instead of the bottom, of the sump.

At first glance I wondered why you chose to use a separate pump for
your heater design. I figured it would be better for the heater flow
to piggyback off the engine's normal flow (same as coolant based
heaters). But I see the wisdom in your setup isolating the heater
with it's own positive pump. As you said, the normal failure mode is
no cockpit heat for the rest of the flight and the loss of less than
a critical amount of engine oil.

[Morgans]

"Richard Riley" > wrote
>
> 2) The fan drove me nuts for a long time. Finally I found a bilge fan
> from a boating supply store http://www.boatersland.com/rul140.html
> that's 12 volt, lightweight, and has plenty of volume. Don't bother
> with cooling fans from computers, they don't blow nearly enough.

It is not a question of "enough." The computer fan is only good at moving
free air, and does **** poor at pushing through any resistance, such as
blowing though the fins of the heat exchanger, and any bends and kinks of
the ducts. The squirrel cage blower is made for pushing pressure; that is
why they are always used in furnaces.

Simply a case of proper application, but you knew that, right? :-)

Good idea using a bilge blower. One h*ll of a lot lighter than an
automotive blower.

I think I missed something. Is this on a flying application, so you can see
if it puts out enough heat, oil heat wise, and volume wise?
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Richard Riley" > wrote

The bilge fans are axial, like the muffin fans, but
> with a lot more power. The blades have about 6 times the chord of the
> muffin fans, and they have long shrouds.

I've never seen a blige blower that was axial, but I've not seen that many.
Learn something new all of the time.
--
Jim in NC