View Full Version : Fatal Towplane Accident 5-9-20
Paul Agnew
May 10th 20, 03:56 PM
Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
Paul Agnew
Jupiter, FL
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
Condolences to all involved.
While it is near impossible to engineer out all the potential for such an occurrence in towing there are things that should be done to all tow planes to mitigate these conditions. I'll not get into them but those who know me know what I think. While training is important, training should never take a back seat to giving the tow pilot every chance in the world to escape with his or her life.
Walt Connelly
Former tow pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
> While it is near impossible to engineer out all the potential for such an occurrence in towing there are things that should be done to all tow planes to mitigate these conditions.
Aside from eliminating human reaction time with an elevator at stop triggering an instant tow release, I'm not sure how to fix low level kiting at the tow. That would cause more problems.
On the other end of the rope, we have a separate sign off for aero, winch and motor launch. For me, it would have been useful if there was an additional for CG which requires a specific test to verify an understanding of kiting.
(RAS is all about fixing the problem before we know what the problem is. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB says about this in terms of mitigations.)
Definitely a sad day.
>
> On the other end of the rope, we have a separate sign off for aero, winch and motor launch. For me, it would have been useful if there was an additional for CG which requires a specific test to verify an understanding of kiting.
>
> (RAS is all about fixing the problem before we know what the problem is. It will be interesting to see what the NTSB says about this in terms of mitigations.)
>
> Definitely a sad day.
I am not the most experienced tow pilot on this site but I do have 7000 tows under my belt. I have survived a couple of kiting incidents, one at about 350 feet and the student didn't release. Had the rope not broken I would have been dead, the Schweizer release and associated release handle were useless for a couple of reasons. I'll not elaborate, those who know me know what I have to say regarding this. As for RAX being all about fixing problems....SHIRLEY you jest and yes I called you Shirley.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 10th 20, 05:35 PM
Watching that video of the wreck is shocking.
Its crazy how quickly aero towing can go sideways.
Thoughts and prayers to all involved.
Nick T
Ex tow pilot.
Tom BravoMike
May 10th 20, 10:05 PM
We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?
There have been some proposed engineering solutions, and even prototypes built of automatic tow releases to prevent kiting accidents. I believe the main problem has been that the difference in the angle of the rope relative to the release between normal tow and kiting is very small. Also, I think there was pushback from insurance companies regarding anything that might cause a premature release.
Hartley Falbaum[_2_]
May 11th 20, 01:33 AM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
I do not know the specifics of this accident. But it is well known that the Schweitzer hook is vulnerable. The release mounting on the floor is hard or impossible to reach is a sever kiting. This has been hashed about in r.a.s. for years. I would be petrified to fly behind a "automatic" release.
Hartley Falbaum
Loganville, GA.
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:13:53 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Aside from eliminating human reaction time with an elevator at stop triggering an instant tow release, I'm not sure how to fix low level kiting at the tow. That would cause more problems.
>
In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to keep his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be done, with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.
Waveguru
May 11th 20, 02:37 AM
Condolences to everybody in this tragedy. I am curious as to how many hours the glider pilot had? It says in the report that he landed safely. He should be charged with a crime.
Boggs
Paul Agnew
May 11th 20, 04:31 AM
Hearing that this possibly involved a canopy popping open.
I'm sure the glider pilot feels horrible for this.
PA
Ireallyknowwhathappened
May 11th 20, 06:50 AM
No details on this tragedy, yet we have those who assume they know....
An anonymous friend of an anonymous witness who said he might be wrong in what he saw
More than one blaming it on the towplane's release mechanism
The towpilot should have had his hand on the release
....and the best, a 3-in-1 judge, jury and witness... Glider pilot's fault and needs to go straight to jail
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:37:28 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> Condolences to everybody in this tragedy. I am curious as to how many hours the glider pilot had? It says in the report that he landed safely. He should be charged with a crime.
>
> Boggs
I made a couple of calls to family members who are legal experts or so they tell me. Only one answered and my aviation attorney seems to be sequestered deep in the forests of Massachusetts until this plague passes. Gliders/soaring seems to be considered a sport and under the legal doctrine of "assumption of the risk" I am informed it is quite difficult to bring a charge of any kind unless it can be proven that an unreasonable/purposeful act was committed. I guess they consider the tow pilot to be a participant and is assuming a degree of risk. Of course it all depends on the lawyers who get involved and the local charging authority. Some can sue the sun for going down and the tide for going out, welcome to America.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to keep his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be done, with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.
This is assuming that all Pawnees have a handle NOT down on the floor but (as I insisted at one time) up where the pilot can grab it while in the upright and seated position. I know that many have been modified, I've been contacted by many tow pilots who told me it took some persuading but finally their club/commercial operation saw the light. I will also tell you that kiting incidents are not all slowly evolving types where the glider pilot has simply inserted their head up their ass for a few moments. Some are sudden and quite violent. In my last kiting experience even if I had my hand on the handle (which was down on the floor and difficult to reach) I would have been nose down more than 60 degrees and pointed at the ground before I could have reacted. At a low enough altitude this will be fatal the vast majority of the time.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Karl Striedieck[_2_]
May 11th 20, 01:59 PM
There are a few things that will make the Schweizer release a safer mechanism.
1 Inverting the release will eliminate all friction in the actuation.
2 Tow plane's release lever should be instantly accessible and have a high leverage configuration.
3 A careful dressing of the movable part of the release so that it is slightly curved where the capture slides off. This eliminates the increased force that the sliding capture generates as it starts sliding aft.
4 Tow pilots should include in their daily checklist a what if regarding rapidly getting rid of a kiting glider: where's the handle and which way does it go.
Ian Lane
May 11th 20, 02:10 PM
Terribly sad when this sort of accident happens.
As one who has experienced an upset in a Pawnee, albeit at about 1500', I
can confirm how frighteningly quickly it happens. On that occasion I was
able to dump the glider (an ASH25) and recover safely. The glider pilot
admitted afterwards that he had been re-tuning his radio whilst on tow, and
had lost sight of me!!!
The release mechanism on our Pawnee, and on others I've flown in the UK,
is a cable and pulley system whereby the said cable runs vertically from
the the cockpit roof to just above the throttle lever and is really easy to
grab in an emergency - no fumbling for a knob or lever.
A study of towplane upsets was done quite a few years ago , following a
series of accidents in the UK. Certain factors were found to increase the
risks:
High wing glider
Towing on the belly hook
Inexperienced glider pilot, and particularly those that usually flew from a
winch-only site
Schweizer hook on towplane
Turbulent conditions
...and often a combination of most, or all, of these - a case of the holes
in the Swiss cheese lining up.
At 12:27 11 May 2020, wrote:
>
>> In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to
keep
>=
>his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be
done,
>=
>with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.
>
>This is assuming that all Pawnees have a handle NOT down on the floor but
>(=
>as I insisted at one time) up where the pilot can grab it while in the
>upri=
>ght and seated position. I know that many have been modified, I've been
>co=
>ntacted by many tow pilots who told me it took some persuading but
finally
>=
>their club/commercial operation saw the light. I will also tell you that
>k=
>iting incidents are not all slowly evolving types where the glider pilot
>ha=
>s simply inserted their head up their ass for a few moments. Some are
>sudde=
>n and quite violent. In my last kiting experience even if I had my hand
>on=
> the handle (which was down on the floor and difficult to reach) I would
>ha=
>ve been nose down more than 60 degrees and pointed at the ground before I
>c=
>ould have reacted. At a low enough altitude this will be fatal the vast
>ma=
>jority of the time. =20
>
>Walt Connelly
>Former Tow Pilot
>Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
>
Bob Youngblood
May 11th 20, 02:25 PM
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 8:27:22 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > In my opinion, it should be required for the towpilot to be able to keep his hand on the release for the first 500ft. In Pawnees, this can be done, with wrist also lying on the throttle to ensure it stays full forward.
>
> This is assuming that all Pawnees have a handle NOT down on the floor but (as I insisted at one time) up where the pilot can grab it while in the upright and seated position. I know that many have been modified, I've been contacted by many tow pilots who told me it took some persuading but finally their club/commercial operation saw the light. I will also tell you that kiting incidents are not all slowly evolving types where the glider pilot has simply inserted their head up their ass for a few moments. Some are sudden and quite violent. In my last kiting experience even if I had my hand on the handle (which was down on the floor and difficult to reach) I would have been nose down more than 60 degrees and pointed at the ground before I could have reacted. At a low enough altitude this will be fatal the vast majority of the time.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
The release on the floor is a huge contributing factor in many aspects of not being able to release during a kiting emergency. I will further state that the handle on the floor may be a bigger problem than the Schweizer release itself. The design of the newer pacific release negates the possibility of the connect ring going forward which may impede release. I have configured both of my Pawnee's so that the release handle is within easy accessibility and it has a long arm that would contribute to less load to engage the release.
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:15:05 PM UTC+1, Ian Lane wrote:
> Terribly sad when this sort of accident happens.
>
> As one who has experienced an upset in a Pawnee, albeit at about 1500', I
> can confirm how frighteningly quickly it happens. On that occasion I was
> able to dump the glider (an ASH25) and recover safely. The glider pilot
> admitted afterwards that he had been re-tuning his radio whilst on tow, and
> had lost sight of me!!!
>
> The release mechanism on our Pawnee, and on others I've flown in the UK,
> is a cable and pulley system whereby the said cable runs vertically from
> the the cockpit roof to just above the throttle lever and is really easy to
> grab in an emergency - no fumbling for a knob or lever.
>
> A study of towplane upsets was done quite a few years ago , following a
> series of accidents in the UK. Certain factors were found to increase the
> risks:
>
> High wing glider
>
> Towing on the belly hook
>
> Inexperienced glider pilot, and particularly those that usually flew from a
> winch-only site
>
> Schweizer hook on towplane
>
> Turbulent conditions
>
> ..and often a combination of most, or all, of these - a case of the holes
> in the Swiss cheese lining up.
>
>
I bet you gave the ASH 25 pilot a bit of gentle ribbing over that Ian!
John G
Ian Lane
May 11th 20, 02:53 PM
You bet!
At 13:38 11 May 2020, wrote:
>On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:15:05 PM UTC+1, Ian Lane wrote:
>> Terribly sad when this sort of accident happens.
>>
>> As one who has experienced an upset in a Pawnee, albeit at about 1500',
I
>> can confirm how frighteningly quickly it happens. On that occasion I
was
>> able to dump the glider (an ASH25) and recover safely. The glider pilot
>> admitted afterwards that he had been re-tuning his radio whilst on tow,
>and
>> had lost sight of me!!!
>>
>> The release mechanism on our Pawnee, and on others I've flown in the
>UK,
>> is a cable and pulley system whereby the said cable runs vertically
from
>> the the cockpit roof to just above the throttle lever and is really
easy
>to
>> grab in an emergency - no fumbling for a knob or lever.
>>
>> A study of towplane upsets was done quite a few years ago , following a
>> series of accidents in the UK. Certain factors were found to increase
the
>> risks:
>>
>> High wing glider
>>
>> Towing on the belly hook
>>
>> Inexperienced glider pilot, and particularly those that usually flew
from
>a
>> winch-only site
>>
>> Schweizer hook on towplane
>>
>> Turbulent conditions
>>
>> ..and often a combination of most, or all, of these - a case of the
holes
>> in the Swiss cheese lining up.
>>
>>
>I bet you gave the ASH 25 pilot a bit of gentle ribbing over that Ian!
>
>John G
>
Ireallyknowwhathappened
May 11th 20, 04:30 PM
The plane was trying to land, apparently. The pilot was killed while landing at the airport:https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/05/09/one-person-killed-in-glider-tow-plane-crash-at-byron-airport/
Lawyer advises the survivors to pursue justice. :https://www.pacificattorneygroup.com/tag/pilot-killed-in-byron-airport-plane-crash/
Getyourhandsoffthatthingontow
May 11th 20, 05:35 PM
"In 33 years of flying sailplanes I was given the rope once. The tow pilot was new and only had 3 tow's prior. It was a WAVE day and it was bumpy on tow. He gave me the rope at 400 ft. I was directly behind the tow plane when it happen. The tow pilot had never flew in wave conditions before. I was unhappy because it was a glider ride I was performing. BTW, that was the last day that tow pilot towed.
Regards,"
xxx tow pilot
I’ve been towing for 35 years and have had kitting incidents, all with the schweizer hitch, and mostly pawnee’s. You can believe I am paying serious attention the first 500 ft of every tow!
I only had one instance of s schweizer hitch not releasing immediately. A 2-33 kitted severely and I yanked that release almost immediately. I rolled hard left then yanked again and she released. I got the load pulling more sideways than upwards. Thankfully I had the altitude to make that radical move with my nose pointing 60degrees downward.
There are alot of idiot glider flyers out there. This incident was caused by a 800 hour flier who dropped his phone and tried to retreave it when we were about 500 ft agl.
Dan
john firth
May 11th 20, 07:28 PM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
It might be interesting to get the statistics from Oz where low tow
is standard. ( anywhere else with low tow)
John F
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 11th 20, 07:29 PM
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 5:59:13 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> There are a few things that will make the Schweizer release a safer mechanism.
>
> 1 Inverting the release will eliminate all friction in the actuation.
>
> 2 Tow plane's release lever should be instantly accessible and have a high leverage configuration.
>
> 3 A careful dressing of the movable part of the release so that it is slightly curved where the capture slides off. This eliminates the increased force that the sliding capture generates as it starts sliding aft.
>
> 4 Tow pilots should include in their daily checklist a what if regarding rapidly getting rid of a kiting glider: where's the handle and which way does it go.
In Helicopters, the longline has two release mechanisms. An electronic one on the cyclic (stick) which can be push with thumb, and a manual one on the stick (brake type of handle). You are already holding the stick and the load is dumped fast, just a thought
Sci Fi
May 11th 20, 08:52 PM
If you have ever tried to move your arms when undergoing a high G
manoeuvre, you will realise the difficulty of grabbing hold of anything.
As the rope angle will not change much, having the release mechanism auto
release is also not so probable. Maybe some electronic Angle of Attack
device is needed that would detect any upset, and chop the rope instantly.
John Foster
May 11th 20, 09:06 PM
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:00:06 PM UTC-6, Sci Fi wrote:
> If you have ever tried to move your arms when undergoing a high G
> manoeuvre, you will realise the difficulty of grabbing hold of anything.
>
> As the rope angle will not change much, having the release mechanism auto
> release is also not so probable. Maybe some electronic Angle of Attack
> device is needed that would detect any upset, and chop the rope instantly.
Not a bad idea, but I'd link it to the artificial horizon instead of the AOA. But I'm not an aeronautical engineer, so what do I know?
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, john firth wrote:
> On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> >
> > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> >
> > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> >
> > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> >
> > Paul Agnew
> > Jupiter, FL
>
> It might be interesting to get the statistics from Oz where low tow
> is standard. ( anywhere else with low tow)
> John F
Valley Soaring Club in NY uses low tow.
About 70,000 towns by club and preceding commercial operation with no upsets.
That said, it could happen tomorrow.
I do believe upset is less likely in low tow however.
UH
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 11th 20, 10:08 PM
Couple of observations from the cheap seats.
1. This has been a ongoing problem with NO solution since the first aerotow ever.
I wonder when the first tug upset fatality took place, in the '20's?
2. These accidents are [ I think ] 100% on the glider pilot.
We glider pilots have to do a better job while on tow period. No matter what happens if you get out of line, your first move has to be to release. Forget the canopy, snake, bee, your phone, electrical fire, anything really, etc etc.
3. From the pictures it appears to me the towplane impacted the runway, but I'm not sure, but it looks like it to me. If so, the tug was probably still very low and and any type of release isn't going to save the day. It probably happened in a very few seconds.
Damn *this sucks,* BAD.
Its So unfair to the tug pilot, and his family.
I'm into this gliding stuff for fun and this IS NOT fun.
We as a group HAVE to do better than this.
Nick
T
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 11th 20, 10:32 PM
I've flown Low Tow on both ends of the rope in Australia
It works up high. Its kinda weird for the glider pilot. Its a very different sight picture.
But, when the tug is 50' in the air, during the initial T.O. it doesn't stop a kite like what happened in Byron Ca.
That kite accident is pure glider pilot error.
Even if the elevator is unconnected, it's still glider pilot error.
You've got to release *immediately* when things go out of parameters.
Don't try and save it especially when low say below 1000' IMHO
Nick
T
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 11th 20, 11:45 PM
Ummmm.......later post mirrors my post here......
Our club does low tow predominantly.....but we teach both (I am an ex CFIG....didn't do a renewal years ago because of work travel)...,
Dufis on the glider end can muck up any tow..... went to a funeral of a friend due to a squirrel we ran off. Kiting issue....
I have "quite a few aerotows" over decades.....worst were low power tug with a water laden 15M ship.....
Beyond that....you're current, discussion with tug pilot, discussion with locals...may be "sporty" but doable....
Issue is peeps that don't do low tow, tend to do,"stupid low tow".....lack of conversation....that whole wind gradient thingy...
Look in most gliding books.....low tow is recommended for cross country....
Our group is maybe 1 of 2 or 3 in the US of A that do low tow normally.....
Sucks for the loss...condolences for all involved...bad day in general....
Brian[_1_]
May 11th 20, 11:55 PM
Several responses on how the release should be configured to improve response time of a release for Pawnee. Which is interesting since it wasn't a Pawnee this occurred with.
Any recommendations/documentation on how to improve a factory Bellanca Tow Hook or release handle?
Brian
Dave Springford
May 12th 20, 01:50 AM
Our Citabria has the release bowden cable routed up to the top of the fuselage and comes out of the headliner just in front of the switch console and forward to attach to the structural tube at the windscreen/wing root. This places the cable directly above the throttle by about 18 inches at the top of the window.
To release, raise your hand from the throttle to the cable and pull down on the cable. You don't need to look for it or take your eyes off the sky.
We use a Tost release, so no special lever is required to overcome release friction, a simple 5 lb pull will do it.
I have seen some Scouts with a lever mounted up top in an inverted orientation, so you pull down and forward on the lever to actuate.
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 4:59:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, john firth wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > >
> > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > >
> > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > >
> > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > >
> > > Paul Agnew
> > > Jupiter, FL
> >
> > It might be interesting to get the statistics from Oz where low tow
> > is standard. ( anywhere else with low tow)
> > John F
>
> Valley Soaring Club in NY uses low tow.
> About 70,000 towns by club and preceding commercial operation with no upsets.
> That said, it could happen tomorrow.
> I do believe upset is less likely in low tow however.
> UH
How about making the rope longer?
Curt[_4_]
May 12th 20, 05:51 AM
Anyone see a tow rope in the accident photos? There appears to be a probe of some sort close to the tail wheel and extending beyond. Too blurry to see clearly, but isn't this where the release mech should be? Towed with a Scout many times. We won't get much from the NTSB for months, unfortunately.
CC
Ian Lane
May 12th 20, 12:10 PM
As well as our Pawnee, our club also operated a Scout for many years. It
had the same release system as our Pawnee, as described in Dave
Springfield's post below and in my earlier post.
At 00:50 12 May 2020, Dave Springford wrote:
>Our Citabria has the release bowden cable routed up to the top of the
>fusel=
>age and comes out of the headliner just in front of the switch console
and
>=
>forward to attach to the structural tube at the windscreen/wing root.
>This=
> places the cable directly above the throttle by about 18 inches at the
>top=
> of the window.
>
>To release, raise your hand from the throttle to the cable and pull down
>on=
> the cable. You don't need to look for it or take your eyes off the sky.
>
>We use a Tost release, so no special lever is required to overcome
release
>=
>friction, a simple 5 lb pull will do it. =20
>
>I have seen some Scouts with a lever mounted up top in an inverted
>orientat=
>ion, so you pull down and forward on the lever to actuate.
>
>
BobWa43
May 12th 20, 12:54 PM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
BobWa43
May 12th 20, 12:56 PM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
Very sad day my condolences to the family and all who knew him. He is a great loss to the soaring community.
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 6:39:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 4:59:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, john firth wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > >
> > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > Jupiter, FL
> > >
> > > It might be interesting to get the statistics from Oz where low tow
> > > is standard. ( anywhere else with low tow)
> > > John F
> >
> > Valley Soaring Club in NY uses low tow.
> > About 70,000 towns by club and preceding commercial operation with no upsets.
> > That said, it could happen tomorrow.
> > I do believe upset is less likely in low tow however.
> > UH
>
> How about making the rope longer?
I would immediately put an electrical actuator on the release cable. The actuator (either solenoid or linear actuator) would have a pull of 200 lbs or more. The electric actuator could be in parallel with the existing manual lever so that either could release the tow rope. A release switch would be put on the stick, just like helicopters. Ultimately the electric release could be automatically actuated by an attitude sensor.
Tom
Waveguru
May 12th 20, 06:45 PM
Again, condolences to all involved. I would sure like to know some of the details. How old and how experienced was the glider pilot? How long was the tow rope and was it within the regulations regarding breaking strength? Was the tow release on the floor of the tow plane? How high were they when the glider kited?
Boggs
Scott Williams[_2_]
May 12th 20, 06:57 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 12:45:39 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> Again, condolences to all involved. I would sure like to know some of the details. How old and how experienced was the glider pilot? How long was the tow rope and was it within the regulations regarding breaking strength? Was the tow release on the floor of the tow plane? How high were they when the glider kited?
>
> Boggs
With Sadness and respect, the video shows the towplane on the runway, and the paved surface seems to have threshold markings. If this is so, the towplane came to rest on the departure end and would seem to indicate a very low and early event in the launch.
Scott.
Ramy[_2_]
May 12th 20, 07:05 PM
Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are.. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.
Ramy
Stephen Struthers
May 12th 20, 07:38 PM
At 18:05 12 May 2020, Ramy wrote:
This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is
unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of
accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with
it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how
experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite
their glider.
Ramy
Well said that man
Bob Youngblood
May 12th 20, 08:47 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 2:05:55 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
> This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.
>
> Ramy
Thanks for the information, your willingness to speak on the incident speaks volumes. Hopefully all those with professional speculation will quell their thoughts and speculations out of respect.
Waveguru
May 12th 20, 08:49 PM
Thank you very much for this information Ramy. One of the hardest things is not knowing what took place. It could happen to any of us if we let our guard down. It only takes a second.
Boggs
BG[_4_]
May 12th 20, 09:05 PM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
We are looking for the tow rope.
BG
Indeed it was a canopy came open.
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 11:05:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
> This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.
>
> Ramy
Did the glider have a flight data logger? If so, has the flight log been examined?
Tom
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> >
> > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> >
> > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> >
> > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> >
> > Paul Agnew
> > Jupiter, FL
>
> 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
>
> We are looking for the tow rope.
>
> BG
>
> Indeed it was a canopy came open.
This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
With respect
UH
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > >
> > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > >
> > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > >
> > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > >
> > > Paul Agnew
> > > Jupiter, FL
> >
> > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> >
> > We are looking for the tow rope.
> >
> > BG
> >
> > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
>
> This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> With respect
> UH
Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
George Haeh
May 13th 20, 01:01 AM
Things we don't teach to beginning glider pilots:
1. Don't kill the towpilot – Release immediately if you lose sight of the towplane or have any control problems.
2. Egress and use of chute. A K-21 on an intro flight lost control after a lightning strike and both pilots successfully used their chutes. Sadly last year that was not the case after a midair between another K-21 and towplane.
3. Handling a loose canopy. There's been a number of write-offs and fatalities because of this, even though gliders are perfectly flyable without a canopy.
You really need to know which rudder pedal will keep a side opening canopy down if it was not properly latched – easy to do on an L-33 (now a simulator cockpit) as I have witnessed.
Then there's the Puchaz which can lose the canopy in a sideslip if the latches are not perfectly adjusted.
Having a CG hook, I have my hand on the release until 300' up. Self preservation on the winch and towpilot preservation on aerotow. I'd much rather deal with writing off my glider than killing a towpilot.
Thanks all for the additional information that helps clear up this tragic accident.
Now damb it to hell!!!!! When are we going to ram into the heads of everyone flying, new pilot-experienced pilot, old guy-young guy, to FLY THE DAMB AIRPLANE!.... we have all seen this type of needless accident multiple times.. Screw the canopy, forget the canopy, fly the Fin ship! Don’t release unless your still on the ground and got stoppable runway in front of you, don’t panic, Deal with the canopy or whatever once your at safe altitude!
Check lists are great, essential, but do we teach how to handle the crap once we stepped into it! First rule, undivided attention to flying the ship when something unexpected happens. We have all seen the panic of guys with unlatched canopies, how bout guys who panic when they loose their airspeed ( seen a guy crash on takeoff due to this panic), or encounter the wasp biting their neck on takeoff, or the snake in the cockpit/rat/mouse. Fly the ship!!!!!!! FIRST, then sort out the stuff when ya got some altitude. Sprung canopies, no airspeed, wasp bit etc aint gonna kill you or someone else, but a panic and loss of control will!
Fact, some sprung open canopies can be reclosed and saved by yawing hard in the direction away from the hinge side. The side and top lid of agcats are known to pop open regularly. We just fly the plane, then when safely clear of the ground/obstacles, yaw hard left to get the top lid to come down n latch, then yaw hard right to get the window to come up n latch. Same goes for the old schweizer 2-22. A hard yaw will keep the canopy from springing over or can help a guy get it back over where it belongs and once the shock is over a guy can get ahold of it and latch it or hold it till landed.
Needless accidents, needless and tragic loss of life. We all need to sit up, pay attention, rethink how/what we teach, and also what we present on biannuals. We simulate rope breaks, have you ever covered an airspeed and had to fly a tow-release-landing without? How about a guy in the back seat who screams out just after breaking ground? How dod the front seater react, how would you react? Panic pull of the stick? Trying to turn around n look back while just above the ground? Bad news!
Think about it.
Dan
Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
Just my .02 cents,
JJ
John I like that little trick
Dan
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
> Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
> Just my .02 cents,
> JJ
What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release. Professional airline pilots which have two pilots in the cockpit with electronic checklists still screw up. If that's the solution I guarantee that towplane upsets will continue to happen.
The tow pilot is in a very vulnerable situation: he/she is totally dependent upon the correct performance of the glider pilot. One towplane upset accident is one too many.
Tom
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 9:05:32 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
> > Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
> > Just my .02 cents,
> > JJ
>
> What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release. Professional airline pilots which have two pilots in the cockpit with electronic checklists still screw up. If that's the solution I guarantee that towplane upsets will continue to happen.
>
> The tow pilot is in a very vulnerable situation: he/she is totally dependent upon the correct performance of the glider pilot. One towplane upset accident is one too many.
>
> Tom
Since you seem to have the problem solved, it seems that you have a real opportunity to create a product that will be in demand.
Maybe the first place to start would be a functional specification.
Go for it.
UH
> What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.
Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?
Put up or....
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:14:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.
>
> Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?
>
> Put up or....
Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
Tom
Duster[_3_]
May 13th 20, 03:11 AM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
> Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
> Just my .02 cents,
> JJ
Jeeeesh.. that suggestion wasn't worth the full 0.2cents; here's a penny rebate back. Take your low-tech ideas somewhere else, like the flat-earth society who'll appreciate numskull ideas. You take us for a bunch of idiots?
...... Okay, well, actually that sounds like a simple, workable solution. We use it on the flap handle when thermalling; a reminder to go neutral or negative when leaving the lift. Any simple ideas to keep us from stall/spinning in?
> Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
>
> Tom
But, but, you said it was simple!
Ideas are cheap. Implementation is a bit more difficult.
Your time isn't worth a million bucks. Your ideas, without the fortitude to back them up are worthless.
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
> >
> > Tom
>
> But, but, you said it was simple!
>
> Ideas are cheap. Implementation is a bit more difficult.
>
> Your time isn't worth a million bucks. Your ideas, without the fortitude to back them up are worthless.
Mark,
I don't have a dog in the fight: I fly a motorglider: no towplane, no tow pilot, no kiting. And I certainly don't have a towplane. I AM NOT going to develop something for which I have no use. But I AM a degreed graduate engineer and can offer advice for those that wish to take on such a project.
Tom
Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."
Once again, put up or....
I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."
>
> Once again, put up or....
>
> I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.
Some people are impervious to the obvious.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 13th 20, 08:29 AM
On Tue, 12 May 2020 17:41:24 -0700, agcatflyr wrote:
> We simulate rope breaks, have you ever covered an airspeed
> and had to fly a tow-release-landing without?
>
Aero tow, no. Winch, yes: three times. First was pre-solo in an ASK-21
and an ASI cover was used, so the whole launch was flown without an ASI
for the student. Part of the BGA syllabus. Isn't that part of US solo
qualification and if not, why not?
The other two were ASI failures after launch. Both of these were in a
Puchacz. First was shortly after release. By then we'd just found a nice
thermal so we decided it would be rude it not use it, went away over big
open space, did a stall or two as reminder of noises etc, came back and
landed without incident. Second was halfway up the launch: pulled the
bung, flew abbreviated pattern and landed. No huhu.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Wednesday, 13 May 2020 07:08:22 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Whoopee for you. If you aren't going to develop it, and you have "no dog in the fight," quit pontificating about what somebody else "should do."
> >
> > Once again, put up or....
> >
> > I assume your advice will be free to those who wish to take advantage of your genius, as your opinions are so freely offered.
>
> Some people are impervious to the obvious.
- which is that you aren't the first genius in this picture. Others with more than your lukewarm and retractable commitment have looked at this before, including trial devices.
The first such incident I heard of was a couple years before I started flying, and it's happened to two others I had briefly met, so there's always been an interest in this.
> Things we don't teach to beginning glider pilots:
>
> 1. Don't kill the towpilot – Release immediately if you lose sight of the towplane or have any control problems.
>
Careful, that 'don't kill the tow pilot' lesson can put tow pilots at risk.
In my primary training, release if you loose site was taught, but the reasoning was about collision and not tying a bow around something.
Kiting is not obvious until you know about it.
Training needs to talk through that reasoning behind the rule.
This includes both the possibility of overwhelming the tow's elevator authority and for CG pilots, the glider's.
BobW
May 13th 20, 03:56 PM
>..... Okay, well, actually that sounds like a simple, workable
> solution. We use it on the flap handle when thermalling; a reminder to go
> neutral or negative when leaving the lift. Any simple ideas to keep us from
> stall/spinning in?
Sincere condolences to everyone directly affected by this - (apparently) yet
another, entirely - avoidable soaring fatality. It - and peppered throughout
this thread's preceding comments - contains serious food for thought, and -
ideally - altered awarenesses/thought-processes/reactions for every pilot
genuinely interested in improving their flight skills. And so, continuing in
this particular philosophic vein...
It's one thing to kill another fellow soaring pilot and have to live with the
consequences. Is there a living pilot who "wishes to go there"?
It's another thing to kill yourSELF...which (in my view) stall/spin accidents
arguably are - 100%. Internalizing this particular worldview is - was for me
anyway - the "simple idea" Most Useful to "keep us [me] from stall/spinning
in". Avoiding "going there" was/is one of those "simple ideas" Seriously
Helpful to remaining among the living for as long as my internal biology
ordains. The altered awareness goes beyond every possible training exposure
(which IMHO can be improved - raise your hands if your instruction didn't
expose you to [say] opening your 2-seater's canopy in flight before trading
off controls with your instructor). It's a life philosophy, not "mere training."
Specifically - accompanying *EVERY* landing approach (and, "low thermalling
situation" undertaken) was the actively-considered simple-idea that if I
sufficiently screwed things up, I was going to soon be irrevocably dead. I
found it focused my attention, if nothing else!
Having through the years put forth this idea numerous times over RAS, I've
encountered various misguided/mistaken interpretations of what the above
assertions are trying to convey. So be it. I'll be leaving now, my work here
is done!
:-)
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 13th 20, 04:35 PM
Dashcam video of this tragic accident
This is out on the internet now
https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6
Nick
T
jfitch
May 13th 20, 07:05 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:29:37 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:14:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.
> >
> > Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?
> >
> > Put up or....
>
> Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
>
> Tom
And therein lies the problem. A million for development, certification, and production is probably on the light side. With a worldwide lifetime market of maybe 200 units, if you achieve 20% market penetration. $5000 each would recover only costs. One false positive release resulting in an accident could wipe out the entire budget easily. Ain't going to happen.
jfitch
May 13th 20, 07:06 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 11:05:55 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Both the tow pilot and the glider pilot where very experienced. The glider pilot is also an instructor. The scout had a retractable tow rope with a guillotine release. It happened so quickly I doubt the tow pilot had any time to react and recover. This is just my opinion not official statement of course. I wasn’t at Byron that day. We will need to wait for at least the preliminary NTSB reports but we will make sure to cooperate with the NTSB investigator.
> This is a tragic loss and we at NCSA are still in shock. Yet this is unfortunately not uncommon. Please keep in mind that these sorts of accidents have additional victim, the glider pilot who have to live with it. We are all human and prone to distraction no matter how experienced and trained we are. No one knowingly or purposely kite their glider.
>
> Ramy
Ramy, what model glider was involved? I assume side opening canopy.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 13th 20, 11:00 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:05:32 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 5:43:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Your strapped in, closed up, checklist complete, hooked up.............then something stops the launch! It’s hot inside your closed up cockpit and it looks like a several minute delay, so you open up the canopy. How can you insure you latch the canopy again?
> > Here’s a little trick I’ve used for 48 years....................leave your hand on the canopy latch! May be a little uncomfortable, but your hand on the canopy latch is there to remind you that something must be done, before you are once again READY FOR TAKEOFF.
> > Just my .02 cents,
> > JJ
>
> What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release. Professional airline pilots which have two pilots in the cockpit with electronic checklists still screw up. If that's the solution I guarantee that towplane upsets will continue to happen.
>
> The tow pilot is in a very vulnerable situation: he/she is totally dependent upon the correct performance of the glider pilot. One towplane upset accident is one too many.
>
> Tom
We could also built a "magnetron super flux hyperlink wormhole connector thingy" and go back in time to retrofit your invention to every tow/kite mishap there by making kiting a non-event. What part of this solution don't you understand?
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:05:05 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:29:37 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:14:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > What part of my solution didn't you guys understand? There's a fairly simply technological solution that circumvents human failings, and that is an automatically actuated tow release.
> > >
> > > Great. Design it, build it, test it and get it approved. How hard could it be?
> > >
> > > Put up or....
> >
> > Yeah, sure. Just send me a million bucks and I will get right on it!
> >
> > Tom
>
> And therein lies the problem. A million for development, certification, and production is probably on the light side. With a worldwide lifetime market of maybe 200 units, if you achieve 20% market penetration. $5000 each would recover only costs. One false positive release resulting in an accident could wipe out the entire budget easily. Ain't going to happen.
Yeah, and these guys thought I was joking! The only way this can happen is if the engineering labor is donated. I am retired and can contribute, but I am not even close to a towplane. A lot of flight testing, some of it dangerous because it involves actual towplane upsets (albeit at altitude), would have to be done.
On the positive side, the cost of manufacturing such a unit would not be high, less than $500.
Tom
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:35:23 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Dashcam video of this tragic accident
> This is out on the internet now
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6
>
> Nick
> T
Unbelievable....!
Uli
'AS'
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 14th 20, 12:50 AM
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 3:39:28 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:35:23 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > Dashcam video of this tragic accident
> > This is out on the internet now
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6
> >
> > Nick
> > T
>
> Unbelievable....!
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
Seriously sad.
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:35:23 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Dashcam video of this tragic accident
> This is out on the internet now
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/X9E3c7JDwnyMBMLw6
>
> Nick
> T
Amazing that there is footage.
Not sure what it shows. I think let the NTSB sort it out.
Rakel
May 14th 20, 01:23 AM
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:56:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> Not sure what it shows. I think let the NTSB sort it out.
last view of the glider and tow plane are at 0:51 on the video.
It appears that the glider is way too high, but this could just be the point of view of the dashcam.
George Haeh
May 14th 20, 03:57 AM
You can see the ground run beginning at 0:31. Can't tell if the canopy is open. The NTSB may be able to synchronise with the glider recorder, but a 4 second interval won't add much information. In some cases Oudies record at 1 second intervals.
Ramy[_2_]
May 14th 20, 04:23 AM
The glider was a 1-26.
Ramy
This is very sad. My condolences to everyone who knew and loved the tow pilot… and to the sailplane pilot and his family and friends as well.
In watching the dashcam video, I realize that there is a second aspect to these accidents that I hadn’t previously recognized. All the energy to accelerate the glider along its longer flight path (crack the whip style) and the potential energy it gained with increasing altitude, came from the tow plane’s kinetic energy. It is not just a matter of overpowering the tow pilot’s pitch authority; we’ve also robbed him of flying speed.
Further note, it takes less than 2 seconds for the transition from a standard tow position to what is surely an unrecoverable situation for the tow plane.
Mike Koerner
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:32:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This is very sad. My condolences to everyone who knew and loved the tow pilot… and to the sailplane pilot and his family and friends as well..
>
> In watching the dashcam video, I realize that there is a second aspect to these accidents that I hadn’t previously recognized. All the energy to accelerate the glider along its longer flight path (crack the whip style) and the potential energy it gained with increasing altitude, came from the tow plane’s kinetic energy. It is not just a matter of overpowering the tow pilot’s pitch authority; we’ve also robbed him of flying speed.
>
> Further note, it takes less than 2 seconds for the transition from a standard tow position to what is surely an unrecoverable situation for the tow plane.
>
> Mike Koerner
Correct! You just described the dynamics of the early stage of a winch launch! The Russians experimented with this sort of thing decades ago by paying out a long line from the tow plane during the tow and then initiating a dive while the glider went into a winch-like attitude. They basically sling-shot the glider to very high altitudes that way.
Anyone interested to discuss and work on a conceptual technical solution beyond Schweizer vs. Tost hook outside of this group, please contact me at moc.oohay@nnamuenilu
Uli
'AS'
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 14th 20, 06:54 AM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch.. I am not inexperienced,
but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 1:54:36 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> >
> > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal..html?m=1
> >
> > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> >
> > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> >
> > Paul Agnew
> > Jupiter, FL
>
> I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch. I am not inexperienced,
> but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost.. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.
From the standpoint of the tow pilot they can and do happen too fast to react. I've experienced the slow, annoying, what the hell is the glider pilot doing type of kite and the sudden, split second, I'm nose down and turned to the left type. Even if I had my hand on the release (which was quite inappropriately installed down on the floor, difficult to reach) I would not have had time to react before I was nose down. I've experience two of the sudden type kite, one at 2K feet and again one at about 300-350 feet. I've had more than one pilot give me push back when I would later approach them about their lack of control on take off. There is NO excuse for doing anything but keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. The tow pilot at Byron didn't stand a chance of recovery due to the low level of the incident. In my one low level kiting experience had I been 50 feet lower I would not have had time or room to recover.
I remember my first glider flight. My CFIG clearly said "if we lose sight of the tow plane, we release!!. His admonitions were clear and concise. "No matter what happens, FLY THE GLIDER FIRST!!!" These instructions were stated on every flight as they should be by every CFIG on every flight. Even at that one cannot count on the student or even the certified glider pilot doing things properly all the time. I have learned in life that there is a difference between telling someone what to do and "teaching" them what to do. Human error is ubiquitous.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Bob Youngblood
May 14th 20, 01:00 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 7:24:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 1:54:36 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > >
> > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > >
> > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > >
> > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > >
> > > Paul Agnew
> > > Jupiter, FL
> >
> > I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch. I am not inexperienced,
> > but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.
>
> From the standpoint of the tow pilot they can and do happen too fast to react. I've experienced the slow, annoying, what the hell is the glider pilot doing type of kite and the sudden, split second, I'm nose down and turned to the left type. Even if I had my hand on the release (which was quite inappropriately installed down on the floor, difficult to reach) I would not have had time to react before I was nose down. I've experience two of the sudden type kite, one at 2K feet and again one at about 300-350 feet. I've had more than one pilot give me push back when I would later approach them about their lack of control on take off. There is NO excuse for doing anything but keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. The tow pilot at Byron didn't stand a chance of recovery due to the low level of the incident. In my one low level kiting experience had I been 50 feet lower I would not have had time or room to recover.
>
> I remember my first glider flight. My CFIG clearly said "if we lose sight of the tow plane, we release!!. His admonitions were clear and concise. "No matter what happens, FLY THE GLIDER FIRST!!!" These instructions were stated on every flight as they should be by every CFIG on every flight. Even at that one cannot count on the student or even the certified glider pilot doing things properly all the time. I have learned in life that there is a difference between telling someone what to do and "teaching" them what to do. Human error is ubiquitous.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow PIlot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Walt, it would surprise most as to how many times this happens and things do not turn tragic, point being is that it happens way too often. Recently I was pulling a student pilot in a 1-26 and he did the exact thing to me.I was flying The Gorilla and you can only imagine where my left hand was as I was yelling at him on the radio. You know that we as tow pilots sometimes go beyond in allowing glider pilots to get further out of position than we should. MY motto is, I'll Dump You Bro!!!
Each time this has happened at our club the glider pilot always has some excuse to justify his lack of reacting to the situation. As mentioned earlier, there is no excuse in NOT reaching for the safety of all involved.
Towing is a hazardous duty, there needs to be more emphasis placed on staying in the slot from the first lesson to the last. this will not be the last time this type of accident occurs, lets face the facts, gliding is hazardous, and tow pilots have been not vocal enough during the training process, not anymore, things are changing.
Tango Eight
May 14th 20, 01:49 PM
One of the more surprising things I have learned as a CFIG over last four seasons is how ****ty glider pilots are as a group in terms of cockpit discipline on take off and departure. They mess with switches, knobs, windows, cameras, water bottles, you name it. I threw a fit about this and said "I'm going to insist on sterile cockpits below 1000'".
I got push back on that from an /instructor/.
Let's talk about open canopies.
Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0I75OZmA-0
As far as I can see, he did one thing, and only one thing correct: keep the tow together until he had an easy approach to a safe landing. Everything else about the decision making on that flight is just wrong. What was he going to do if he got badly out of position, pull the release with his teeth?
Here's another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNJCGxQ_4zo
(wtf does the instructor have a hand held camera?)
That one is just pure luck. Most times, a canopy that opens on tow will be damaged and will not reclose properly.
C'mon, instructors, let's step up.
Flight reviews are a perfect opportunity for refreshing emergency procedures.
Evan Ludeman
BobWa43
May 14th 20, 02:57 PM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > >
> > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > Jupiter, FL
> > >
> > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > >
> > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > >
> > > BG
> > >
> > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> >
> > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > With respect
> > UH
>
> Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
Actually,, in this case, flying the airplane means immediately pulling the release.
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:57:50 AM UTC-4, BobWa43 wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > > Jupiter, FL
> > > >
> > > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > > >
> > > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > > >
> > > > BG
> > > >
> > > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> > >
> > > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > > With respect
> > > UH
> >
> > Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
>
> Actually,, in this case, flying the airplane means immediately pulling the release.
Actaully "fly the airplane" means retain control as to not get out of position in the first place. The distraction of the canopy opening causes loss of attention on position. There are many cases where immediate release would be worse than holding position, possibly grabbing the canopy, and flying to a height where release is a safer option.
I teach my students that the glider flies just fine with the canopy open and not letting it cause more problems is number one.
One recent accident in the northeast involved the canopy coming open, tow gyrations, followed by release with plenty of height to safely return to the airport. He got that part right.The pilot was so distracted by trying to keep the canopy closed that he did not notice that the air brakes had popped open. He retained that condition all the way to impacting the ground a few hundred feet from the airport. Glider totalled, pilot minor injuries.
UH
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 11:51:38 PM UTC-5, Curt wrote:
> Anyone see a tow rope in the accident photos? There appears to be a probe of some sort close to the tail wheel and extending beyond. Too blurry to see clearly, but isn't this where the release mech should be? Towed with a Scout many times. We won't get much from the NTSB for months, unfortunately.
> CC
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ovjoh7ymcif6moh/AABXQcupn5Ufqvle5hglEWaya?dl=0
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 11:51:38 PM UTC-5, Curt wrote:
> Anyone see a tow rope in the accident photos? There appears to be a probe of some sort close to the tail wheel and extending beyond. Too blurry to see clearly, but isn't this where the release mech should be? Towed with a Scout many times. We won't get much from the NTSB for months, unfortunately.
> CC
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 8:00:36 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 7:24:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 1:54:36 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > >
> > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > Jupiter, FL
> > >
> > > I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch. I am not inexperienced,
> > > but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.
> >
> > From the standpoint of the tow pilot they can and do happen too fast to react. I've experienced the slow, annoying, what the hell is the glider pilot doing type of kite and the sudden, split second, I'm nose down and turned to the left type. Even if I had my hand on the release (which was quite inappropriately installed down on the floor, difficult to reach) I would not have had time to react before I was nose down. I've experience two of the sudden type kite, one at 2K feet and again one at about 300-350 feet. I've had more than one pilot give me push back when I would later approach them about their lack of control on take off. There is NO excuse for doing anything but keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. The tow pilot at Byron didn't stand a chance of recovery due to the low level of the incident. In my one low level kiting experience had I been 50 feet lower I would not have had time or room to recover.
> >
> > I remember my first glider flight. My CFIG clearly said "if we lose sight of the tow plane, we release!!. His admonitions were clear and concise.. "No matter what happens, FLY THE GLIDER FIRST!!!" These instructions were stated on every flight as they should be by every CFIG on every flight. Even at that one cannot count on the student or even the certified glider pilot doing things properly all the time. I have learned in life that there is a difference between telling someone what to do and "teaching" them what to do. Human error is ubiquitous.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow PIlot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> Walt, it would surprise most as to how many times this happens and things do not turn tragic, point being is that it happens way too often. Recently I was pulling a student pilot in a 1-26 and he did the exact thing to me.I was flying The Gorilla and you can only imagine where my left hand was as I was yelling at him on the radio. You know that we as tow pilots sometimes go beyond in allowing glider pilots to get further out of position than we should. MY motto is, I'll Dump You Bro!!!
> Each time this has happened at our club the glider pilot always has some excuse to justify his lack of reacting to the situation. As mentioned earlier, there is no excuse in NOT reaching for the safety of all involved.
> Towing is a hazardous duty, there needs to be more emphasis placed on staying in the slot from the first lesson to the last. this will not be the last time this type of accident occurs, lets face the facts, gliding is hazardous, and tow pilots have been not vocal enough during the training process, not anymore, things are changing.
Correct, we are not vocal enough in the training process. The student who almost killed me had NO business being sent on solo. I towed her on 6 or more duals that morning and as per usual she was in and out of the mirror, could not hold steady position and yet her instructor sent her solo. I should have said NO, not gonna tow her but I didn't, that failure almost got me killed. Fact is that even if the gentleman in California who died was flying the Gorilla with what I consider should be the gold standard of handle and tow hook he may well not have survived. I understand he managed to cut the rope but still impacted the ground. Below a certain altitude you are most likely to crash and if not be dead be seriously injured.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now happy Helicopter Pilot
Attached are 3 photo-frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0
Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
Attached are 3 photo-frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. [Note video has been slowed by 50%] https://www..dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0
Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
Attached are 3 frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. [Note video has been slowed by 50%] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0
Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
Attached are 3 photo-frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. [Note video has been slowed by 50%] https://www..dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0 Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
Attached are 3 frames from the video and part of the video that has been magnified and edited. My observations only, I'm not a forensic investigator. First frame shows glider on left, towplane on right with the glider "below" the tug. Tug's landing gear and tail position are evident with vertical stabilizer below wing surface. Note the glider's tail appears even with its wing. Second frame: glider tail now dips "below" its wing and the pitch-up is evidenced by showing more top wing surface; glider is "above" tug. Vert stab of tug now higher/level with its wing. Tug's undercarriage seen. Third frame: Glider appears higher above tug; glider's tail now more horizontal with respect to wing. [Note video has been slowed by 50%] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/snhkjkit21becx5/AABPFTLclNyzrgEdWdun8aY2a?dl=0
Last document is from NTSB final report of 2017 fatal towplane accident. One photo clearly shows the Pawnee's elevator in extreme up deflection while the glider is high above it.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62499/62018/622033.pdf
jfitch
May 14th 20, 05:47 PM
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> The glider was a 1-26.
>
> Ramy
Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.
An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 14th 20, 08:06 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:47:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > The glider was a 1-26.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.
>
> An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
" I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, " Until this moment, I had considered you the smartest guy on this news group. And for a yaw string??? I haven't actually looked at one in years, my butt and damaged lower back give me much feed back. But seriously, other than unbuckling, airplanes, gliders, helicopters can all fly without windows or doors (check POH for which doors). I witnessed a piper arrow crash due to a door coming ajar on take off. I too have opened canopies on 2-33's (pumpkin drops) and even on a Grob 103, front canopy to clear the hot air. In risk v rewards annuals, a yaw string is just not worth unbuckling for, i.e., dying.
BobWa43
May 14th 20, 08:11 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 10:24:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:57:50 AM UTC-4, BobWa43 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > > > Jupiter, FL
> > > > >
> > > > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > > > >
> > > > > BG
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> > > >
> > > > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > > > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > > > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > > > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > > > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > > > With respect
> > > > UH
> > >
> > > Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
> >
> > Actually,, in this case, flying the airplane means immediately pulling the release.
>
> Actaully "fly the airplane" means retain control as to not get out of position in the first place. The distraction of the canopy opening causes loss of attention on position. There are many cases where immediate release would be worse than holding position, possibly grabbing the canopy, and flying to a height where release is a safer option.
> I teach my students that the glider flies just fine with the canopy open and not letting it cause more problems is number one.
> One recent accident in the northeast involved the canopy coming open, tow gyrations, followed by release with plenty of height to safely return to the airport. He got that part right.The pilot was so distracted by trying to keep the canopy closed that he did not notice that the air brakes had popped open. He retained that condition all the way to impacting the ground a few hundred feet from the airport. Glider totalled, pilot minor injuries.
> UH
If you are very early in the take off run, as was the case here, and something is not right, immediate release is the proper response IMO and that is what I teach my students.
Steve Koerner
May 14th 20, 08:28 PM
> An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
>
I'd been thinking along the same line. I don't think it's quite that simple though. No matter how sharp the blade, it won't cut a line that is merely kissing against it. The blade needs to be hot enough to melt through the line or actively sawing. And, obviously it has to all happen very quickly..
How about this: Imagine two permanent magnets (strong magnets) that when joined together create a magnetic junction in the tow line just a bit aft of the tugs two hook. Similar to the knife blade idea, a horizontal bar is mounted off the back of the tow plane above the tow rope such that when the rope raises to a critical angle, the bar presses along the alignment between the two magnets. The relatively small orthogonal force exerted at the magnetic juncture will have a leverage effect to pry the magnets enough to break the magnetic circuit. To improve and optimize the leverage action on the magnets, each may have an attached bar of defined length that is rigidly affixed such the tow line attachment point is positioned at the distal end of these leverage bars. In fact, the tug side's lever bar may have a ring at the end to be attached directly to the tug's tow release. The tug will be instantly freed predicated on the existence of a strong enough pull on the line above the critical angle of bar contact.
Bob Youngblood
May 14th 20, 09:13 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 11:27:40 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 8:00:36 AM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 7:24:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 1:54:36 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > > Jupiter, FL
> > > >
> > > > I have seen a number of these posts over the years, each one is a gut punch. I am not inexperienced,
> > > > but for the life of me I cannot understand how these happen. When I was trained it was really entrenched to release as soon as sight of tow as lost. This included if I took my eyes off the tow plane for a second, I earned a release with the instructor telling me "Why didn't you release, you had lost sight"? Once even falling for a "hey, look at that bird at 3 o'clock, I looked, I got a release. Are these kites so fast that a glider pilot doesn't have time to react, or are these 100% preventable? I don't do anything on tow, but fly tow. I don't mess with phone, set instruments or retract gear.
> > >
> > > From the standpoint of the tow pilot they can and do happen too fast to react. I've experienced the slow, annoying, what the hell is the glider pilot doing type of kite and the sudden, split second, I'm nose down and turned to the left type. Even if I had my hand on the release (which was quite inappropriately installed down on the floor, difficult to reach) I would not have had time to react before I was nose down. I've experience two of the sudden type kite, one at 2K feet and again one at about 300-350 feet. I've had more than one pilot give me push back when I would later approach them about their lack of control on take off. There is NO excuse for doing anything but keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position.. The tow pilot at Byron didn't stand a chance of recovery due to the low level of the incident. In my one low level kiting experience had I been 50 feet lower I would not have had time or room to recover.
> > >
> > > I remember my first glider flight. My CFIG clearly said "if we lose sight of the tow plane, we release!!. His admonitions were clear and concise. "No matter what happens, FLY THE GLIDER FIRST!!!" These instructions were stated on every flight as they should be by every CFIG on every flight.. Even at that one cannot count on the student or even the certified glider pilot doing things properly all the time. I have learned in life that there is a difference between telling someone what to do and "teaching" them what to do. Human error is ubiquitous.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow PIlot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> > Walt, it would surprise most as to how many times this happens and things do not turn tragic, point being is that it happens way too often. Recently I was pulling a student pilot in a 1-26 and he did the exact thing to me..I was flying The Gorilla and you can only imagine where my left hand was as I was yelling at him on the radio. You know that we as tow pilots sometimes go beyond in allowing glider pilots to get further out of position than we should. MY motto is, I'll Dump You Bro!!!
> > Each time this has happened at our club the glider pilot always has some excuse to justify his lack of reacting to the situation. As mentioned earlier, there is no excuse in NOT reaching for the safety of all involved.
> > Towing is a hazardous duty, there needs to be more emphasis placed on staying in the slot from the first lesson to the last. this will not be the last time this type of accident occurs, lets face the facts, gliding is hazardous, and tow pilots have been not vocal enough during the training process, not anymore, things are changing.
>
> Correct, we are not vocal enough in the training process. The student who almost killed me had NO business being sent on solo. I towed her on 6 or more duals that morning and as per usual she was in and out of the mirror, could not hold steady position and yet her instructor sent her solo. I should have said NO, not gonna tow her but I didn't, that failure almost got me killed. Fact is that even if the gentleman in California who died was flying the Gorilla with what I consider should be the gold standard of handle and tow hook he may well not have survived. I understand he managed to cut the rope but still impacted the ground. Below a certain altitude you are most likely to crash and if not be dead be seriously injured.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now happy Helicopter Pilot
I agree Walt, after looking at those enlarged frames I must conclude that the poor tow pilot waited too long to pull the trigger on release. Things happen so quickly that I doubt that the outcome could have been any different.. As tow pilots we all probably extend every possible opportunity to the glider pilot to make recovery, in many cases way too long.
The situation with the 1-26 student pilot was with an individual that took 250 plus flights to solo, the guy should be fishing instead of flying gliders.
A look in the mirror tells wonders when you are towing, we have that ability to evaluate from the front of the rope instead of from behind. This gives us the opportunity to see things that the instructor doesn't. As you well know we as tow pilots can and do make corrections that nullify the mistakes of the glider pilot.
When we have check rides for students I make it a point to inform the DPE of the experiences that I have had as the applicants tow pilot and point out any potential areas of concern that the DPE could assist with to help the applicant. The same goes for their primary instructor, I communicate my concerns! Us as tow pilots need to do more of this, being involved in that process of communicating with the student and the instructor is vital. Most of our instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, therefor we have a huge advantage in evaluating the tow. I'll DUMP YOU BRO!!
Steve Koerner
May 14th 20, 09:58 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 12:28:22 PM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
> >
>
> I'd been thinking along the same line. I don't think it's quite that simple though. No matter how sharp the blade, it won't cut a line that is merely kissing against it. The blade needs to be hot enough to melt through the line or actively sawing. And, obviously it has to all happen very quickly.
>
> How about this: Imagine two permanent magnets (strong magnets) that when joined together create a magnetic junction in the tow line just a bit aft of the tugs two hook. Similar to the knife blade idea, a horizontal bar is mounted off the back of the tow plane above the tow rope such that when the rope raises to a critical angle, the bar presses along the alignment between the two magnets. The relatively small orthogonal force exerted at the magnetic juncture will have a leverage effect to pry the magnets enough to break the magnetic circuit. To improve and optimize the leverage action on the magnets, each may have an attached bar of defined length that is rigidly affixed such the tow line attachment point is positioned at the distal end of these leverage bars. In fact, the tug side's lever bar may have a ring at the end to be attached directly to the tug's tow release. The tug will be instantly freed predicated on the existence of a strong enough pull on the line above the critical angle of bar contact.
Perhaps simpler and smaller than the magnetic method would be to instead incorporate a metal weak link analogous to a Tost weak link used on winch tows. In this case, the link is designed to bust specifically by leverage action across the weak link junction. There will be leverage bars on both sides of this angular weak link. The fulcrum of action could comprise two annular elements with the weak link element joining the two sides in the center of the annular elements. As with the magnetic case, a bar above the line imparts an orthogonal force that results in a powerful leverage action that busts the weak link when the combination of line angle and pull force exceeds the intended critical threshold.
Has anyone investigated placing the tow hook directly over(or under) the tow planes center of gravity? This would keep the out of position glider from yanking the tow planes tail out of acceptable limits? The RC tow ships, I have seen, place the tow hook over the towing ships CG.
My 2 cents,
JJ
john firth
May 15th 20, 01:44 AM
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 10:57:01 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
suggestion for instructors;
after the latch item, teach a positive (push up) canopy check.
On subsequent flights, add some distraction for the student.
If they fail to latch and check, then wait till the launch starts
and push the canopy open, ( and release )
This is more likely to register in the student's memory.
I used to do this and they hated me for it; instructing is not always
a popularity contest.
John F
seen, place the tow hook over the towing ships CG.
> My 2 cents,
> JJ
Mic drop?
Clever concept. Would the release have to be precisely at the CG/CM? If for example it were above the CG/CM point, then would the tow pilot have to apply constant down elevator to overcome the asymmetric leverage caused by the glider's drag? Would the glider pilot be much busier trying to fly in line with the longitudinal axis of the tug?
Dirk_PW[_2_]
May 15th 20, 02:09 AM
So this confirms for me what I do on every flight is a good course of action (even though it has been a very controversial subject on this site)... That is, I hold the release handle during tow. No, I don't latch my fingers around it and grip it like I'm coming out of a bull riding chute on an angry bull. I do however, have physical contact with it through the first 1000 ft of tow. I grip it with my index finger and middle finger (mimicking a pair of scissors wanting to cut the handle). There is no way to accidentally release in turbulence, but more importantly there is no searching for the handle if I need to get off. The other side benefit is that it prevents me from dealing with stupid distractions in the cockpit since one hand is on the stick, the other is touching the release.
Ok, let the negative reactions begin... (I've got my popcorn and beer).
The moment arm up (or down), from the tow ships CG to a tow hook directly above, would be quite short....... not much more than say 4 feet. I would think correcting for pressures applied at 48” would be well within flight controls to compensate. Constant back pressure could be trimmed out. In the RC world, the tow ships are normally quite stable, as is Glider..........problems arise when too much pilot input is applied on either end of the rope! Guide wires from the top of the rudder fin to the tip of both stabilizer tips could keep the tow rope away from the tows tail feathers.
Just thinking outside the box,
JJ
> Has anyone investigated placing the tow hook directly over(or under) the tow planes center of gravity?
I'm trying to envision what that would look like. To be at the CG, there would have to be as much behind and below and ahead and above. How would you rig this without hitting the tail on low or high tow?
Maybe 'over' the CG would eliminate above and below, but still don't see how.
Not seeing how, does not mean there isn't a way, so how do the RC folks do it?
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 15th 20, 02:31 AM
Ya Know JJ Thats a interesting idea
Another major problem, I think, is when the glider starts really kiting like in this Byron accident, is that it puts quite a pull on the rope and radically slows the tug down, And typically the tug is already at a pretty slow speed.
This kiting situation is a major can of worms.
It can and does get out of control so quickly, as that Video clearly shows.
Nick
T
jfitch
May 15th 20, 02:32 AM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:47:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > The glider was a 1-26.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.
> >
> > An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
>
> " I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, " Until this moment, I had considered you the smartest guy on this news group. And for a yaw string??? I haven't actually looked at one in years, my butt and damaged lower back give me much feed back. But seriously, other than unbuckling, airplanes, gliders, helicopters can all fly without windows or doors (check POH for which doors). I witnessed a piper arrow crash due to a door coming ajar on take off. I too have opened canopies on 2-33's (pumpkin drops) and even on a Grob 103, front canopy to clear the hot air. In risk v rewards annuals, a yaw string is just not worth unbuckling for, i.e., dying.
When I did that in a 2-33, I was 14 years old and the instructor in the back seat told be to do it. It seemed like a sporty suggestion, but really was not all that dramatic.
I think a very sharp knife would cut the rope instantly if it was under significant tension, and it would be if there were an attitude problem. If you put a small rope under a few hundred lbs tension you only have to touch it with a really sharp blade and it will cut. But there may be another mechanical solution, like a Tost hook mounted upside down. I just don't know if the angle is sufficiently different than a glider slightly high on tow to be able to differentiate the two. I've only taken a very few tows in the last 20 years of self launch ownership (mainly bi-annuals), and I don't miss them much.
While towing from the CG or AC of the towplane makes sense abstractly (boat towboats do precisely this to maintain directional control), it seems like there are practical problems involving the empennage.
Might have to rig a yolk-type system like the old Blanik L-13 yolk, but installed on the tug end. Model it using a toy Piper Pawnee; tie a string around the outboard strut wing attachment points on both sides (close enough to the CG). Tie the two strings together with a ring in a "Y" well beyond the tail feathers. Attach the tow rope to the ring and voila! If the glider climbs above the Pawnee, the yolk just pivots through the CG, avoiding a tail pull-up.
I thought through the hard stuff, you solve the little details.
> I thought through the hard stuff, you solve the little details
Cadd drawings of CG-yolk attachment to discourage tail-lifting by kiting glider.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rjcl6hugl02af2x/AABWc4Udv8B8gscwrTU8p2W5a?dl=0
Andrzej Kobus
May 15th 20, 04:40 AM
On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > >
> > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > >
> > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > Jupiter, FL
> > >
> > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > >
> > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > >
> > > BG
> > >
> > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> >
> > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > With respect
> > UH
>
> Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
Shields up, and ready for flames.
I don't think checklists will prevent accidents like this. The only thing that will prevent accidents like this is change of attitude of pilots. We are suffering from lack of discipline behind controls. Flying gliders is a risky activity and it requires full concentration and discipline at all times, and that is what is lacking. Having been trained by military pilots, I learnt the value of cockpit discipline from the very early flights. We regularly performed double holes, and never had a kiting accident or any other tow accident in the 9 years I flew on the old continent. How is that possible you might ask, the answer is discipline. Not following discipline quickly earned you being kicked out of the club, without ever coming back. Discipline and full concentration is the key, and we simply don't have enough of it..
Andrzej Kobus
May 15th 20, 04:42 AM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 11:40:49 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 7:43:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 6:52:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 4:05:38 PM UTC-4, BG wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > > > > Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
> > > > >
> > > > > Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul Agnew
> > > > > Jupiter, FL
> > > >
> > > > 16Y had a device to cut the rope and would not have been effected by the tension on the rope. The snout at the tail is a tube that feeds the rope to electric spool behind the pilots seat after release.
> > > >
> > > > We are looking for the tow rope.
> > > >
> > > > BG
> > > >
> > > > Indeed it was a canopy came open.
> > >
> > > This thread, like almost every thread after a tug upset, goes through the same stuff about Schweizer releases and that kind of stuff. That has little to do with preventing the next one.
> > > If the observation is that the canopy came open, and this is true, this accident is instructive in a very important way that we can use to help avoid the next one.
> > > Assuming that the distraction of an open canopy caused loss of position control and crashed the tug, I submit the real cause of the accident is probably a blown checklist whereby the canopy was not locked and confirmed.
> > > We can all honor the lost pilot by dedicating ourselves to using our checklist on every takeoff, and reminding our students and friends to do the same.
> > > With the late start to the season for many,we are all more rusty than usual, good habits need to be reacquired. Checklists are among the most important.
> > > With respect
> > > UH
> >
> > Agreed, proper use of the checklist may well have interdicted this event. One more thing has to be added and that's what we have all been told, time and time and time again.....FLY THE AIRPLANE, THE GLIDER, THE HELICOPTER. Whatever it is we are flying. Flying the glider in this situation means keeping your eyes on the tow plane and maintaining position. Unfortunately this incident happened at an altitude which made recovery by the tow pilot impossible.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.
>
> Shields up, and ready for flames.
> I don't think checklists will prevent accidents like this. The only thing that will prevent accidents like this is change of attitude of pilots. We are suffering from lack of discipline behind controls. Flying gliders is a risky activity and it requires full concentration and discipline at all times, and that is what is lacking. Having been trained by military pilots, I learnt the value of cockpit discipline from the very early flights. We regularly performed double holes, and never had a kiting accident or any other tow accident in the 9 years I flew on the old continent. How is that possible you might ask, the answer is discipline. Not following discipline quickly earned you being kicked out of the club, without ever coming back. Discipline and full concentration is the key, and we simply don't have enough of it.
Should have said "double tows" not "double holes"
Cookie
May 15th 20, 09:17 AM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 8:25:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Has anyone investigated placing the tow hook directly over(or under) the tow planes center of gravity? This would keep the out of position glider from yanking the tow planes tail out of acceptable limits? The RC tow ships, I have seen, place the tow hook over the towing ships CG.
> My 2 cents,
> JJ
This is exactly how they do it with Radio control models! I tried towing radio controlled models with a tail hook on a 10' span cub....some success, many crashes....with Hook on top of wing...no problem...and they fly the model gliders really high on the tow plane. Needs some frame around the fin and horizontal stab to prevent rope entanglement....don't think it is safe for "real" towing...
Cookie
Don Johnstone[_4_]
May 15th 20, 09:53 AM
Over 40 years ago a good friend of mine was killed while Flying a
Citarbria on areotow at Aboyne, Scotland.
The findings of the enquiry were that the release as on the floor of the
cockpit and could be reached while the inertia seatbelts allowed
movement. In turbulence if the belts locked it was not possible for
some pilots to reach the release. The glider pilot admitted losing sight
of the tug and failed to release.
As the result of that accident it was an airworthiness requirement that
the glider release was mounted near to the throttle. The requirement
that if a glider pilot lost sight of the tug FOR ANY REASON he should
immediately release.
We will not know the exact causes of the current accident for sometime,
speculation can be counter productive, however the two lessons above
are still valid.
I find it crazy that there are still tugs allowed to fly without the
release
in close proximity to the throttle and there are still glider pilots who do
not release when they should. Surely 40 years is enough time to learn a
lesson.
Well, everything's been said but not everyone has said it yet. There is no one answer to this problem, it doesn't matter what "fly the airplane means.." If it's "keep your eyes on the tug and maintain proper position" or "release," what it really means is "do not kill the tow pilot.''
It doesn't matter if you have a reachable release handle, an inverted Schweizer hook, a TOST system or a guillotine, if the glider kites low enough you will be dead or badly injured. A sobering though for tow pilots everywhere.
It doesn't matter if the glider pilot is a 15 year old student or an instructor pilot, if they screw up the tow pilot most likely pays the fine.
In this most recent accident the glider pilot I am told was an instructor. How can we expect a low time student to react properly if an instructor is distracted? Look at the Front Royal accident, an instructor was flying in this situation and clearly above the tow plane. Why did he not release? There was a fatal tow plane accident at the USAF Academy soaring club, the instructor, an Academy student (the best of the best I was constantly told while I was in the USAF) was significantly above the tow plane and did not release.
It doesn't matter if the instructor is a "world aerobatic champion" if he failed to impart information to the student about what to do when one loses sight of the tow plane. Telling someone something and TEACHING someone are two different things.
Is it failure to use a check list or a failure of cockpit discipline? It doesn't matter and it won't matter until all involved in the sport including the SSA, the FAA, the NTSB, commercial operation managers, club presidents, ALL the tow pilots and glider pilots decide that it matters and more importantly take action to reduce the chances of it happening again. Unfortunately NOTHING can be done to completely eliminate these occurrences but we fly anyway.
Accidents in the aviation world will continue because gravity is a constant and human error is impossible to eliminate completely. Good luck my friends.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
It could be effective for one of the glider pilots involved in a kiting fatality to tour the flying sites and share his/her experience and grief personally to glider pilots.
This will probably never happen but it would certainly help others realize the reality of the potential dangers and long lasting effects of a simple mistake.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 15th 20, 02:21 PM
On Thu, 14 May 2020 18:09:15 -0700, Dirk_PW wrote:
> So this confirms for me what I do on every flight is a good course of
> action (even though it has been a very controversial subject on this
> site)... That is, I hold the release handle during tow. No, I don't
> latch my fingers around it and grip it like I'm coming out of a bull
> riding chute on an angry bull. I do however, have physical contact with
> it through the first 1000 ft of tow. I grip it with my index finger and
> middle finger (mimicking a pair of scissors wanting to cut the handle).
> There is no way to accidentally release in turbulence, but more
> importantly there is no searching for the handle if I need to get off.
> The other side benefit is that it prevents me from dealing with stupid
> distractions in the cockpit since one hand is on the stick, the other is
> touching the release.
>
> Ok, let the negative reactions begin... (I've got my popcorn and beer).
I agree. That's what I was taught (for both winch and aero-tow) and
that's what I do. I like your reasoning too - fingers on the release
means yo have to make a concious decision to let go it it before you grab
anything else. I was also taught the 'lock and push up' canopy closing
routine from my first training flight, alongside the BGS's standard pre-
launch checklist.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 15th 20, 02:23 PM
On Fri, 15 May 2020 13:21:19 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2020 18:09:15 -0700, Dirk_PW wrote:
>
>> So this confirms for me what I do on every flight is a good course of
>> action (even though it has been a very controversial subject on this
>> site)... That is, I hold the release handle during tow. No, I don't
>> latch my fingers around it and grip it like I'm coming out of a bull
>> riding chute on an angry bull. I do however, have physical contact
>> with it through the first 1000 ft of tow. I grip it with my index
>> finger and middle finger (mimicking a pair of scissors wanting to cut
>> the handle). There is no way to accidentally release in turbulence, but
>> more importantly there is no searching for the handle if I need to get
>> off. The other side benefit is that it prevents me from dealing with
>> stupid distractions in the cockpit since one hand is on the stick, the
>> other is touching the release.
>>
>> Ok, let the negative reactions begin... (I've got my popcorn and beer).
>
> I agree. That's what I was taught (for both winch and aero-tow) and
> that's what I do. I like your reasoning too - fingers on the release
> means yo have to make a concious decision to let go it it before you
> grab anything else. I was also taught the 'lock and push up' canopy
> closing routine from my first training flight, alongside the BGS's
> standard pre- launch checklist.
s/BGS/BGA/
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
BG[_4_]
May 15th 20, 04:25 PM
On Thursday, May 14, 2020 at 9:47:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:23:35 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > The glider was a 1-26.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Too bad. A 1-26 flies fine without a canopy. I have purposefully opened the canopy of a 2-33, unbuckled and stood up to untangle the yaw string, and though flying slower than on tow it wasn't terribly dramatic. Perhaps if training in 2-33s opening the canopy to experience it should be part of the course. It is the surprise and fear of the unknown which certainly contributes to the loss of concentration.
>
> An artificial horizon and electric guillotine is a complex solution. Is the tow rope at a sufficient angle in these situations to simply position a sharp knife above the rope such that it cuts itself if the angle is too high? Surely that has been thought of and rejected for good reasons?
A common problem most tow plans have is the lack of a good way to see the glider. The mount rearview mirror at some distance from them on the wing struts and various places. Most tow pilots I have taked to say the field of view is very limited and they mostly use them while taking out the slack be fore launch. I todays world we back up cameras on out cars with overlays to help use back up. If we used a camera looking back, the tow pilot could see the glider easily. The screen could have a box the glider must be within. If not cut the rope. Addition software could also be implemented to cut the rope for them.
A second idea is a tension sensor. if there is a sustained high pull on the rope as you get with a kiting event. An alarm could go off or the rope automatically cut. Slack rope jerks are very short in duration and could easily be ignored.
John Scott was a very good friend of mine and I feel very sad for his loss and at the same time a bit upset at the glider pilot for not doing one of the most fundalmental things we teach students. If you can not see the tow plane " release immediately" people loose sight of the towplane long before things go completely bad.
there is addition video taking by the airport cameras that show the entire accident sequence. Some day when the NTSB gives its report, we will get a chance to see this maybe.
The tow rope was found 100 yards beyond the towplane in a small pile indicating it came down vertically. The glider over flew the towplane as it was about to crash or even after and caused the plane to flip over. This trapped the pilot inside where he burnt to death.
Negative G's could have prevented the pilot from reaching the release under his seat in the most dynamic period of energy transfer to the gliders speed and altitude. IT is this on set of this critical time is when the rope need to be cut.
The pull on the Schwiezer tow hook would have been nearly straight down and could have also been jabbed. Years of doing winch launches in a 1-26 and 2-33 say you need to push over to help reduce the release forces to open the release.
Tow pilots do the most dangerous part of getting us into the air many times each day. We in the glider do less. We need to find solutions to prevent another kiting fatality.
Buzz
Rakel
May 15th 20, 07:57 PM
Since we have now decided to re-invent the tow plane to put the tow hook on the CG, has anybody considered a canard design with a front or mid fuselage mounted engine?
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 15th 20, 08:37 PM
On Fri, 15 May 2020 11:57:35 -0700, Rakel wrote:
> Since we have now decided to re-invent the tow plane to put the tow hook
> on the CG, has anybody considered a canard design with a front or mid
> fuselage mounted engine?
Difficult: I've flown a Canard free flight model. Its CG was in front of
the wing and about 1/3 of the way along the wing:stabiliser gap in front
of the wing. The motor was on a short pylon above the CG.
Part of the design would be clear: put the pilot on the CG, fins and
rudders near the tips and anchor the towline no further back than the
wing LE, but where do you put the engine while keeping the propeller away
from the towline without making the poor thing far too nose-heavy?
Move the pilot back to the wing LE, put the engine immediately in front
of him and use a long, light carbon drive shaft to a prop at the front?
Maybe a bigger, more powerful Quickie with twin fins would be better?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickie_Aircraft
Or a Transavia Air Truck?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk
OTOH, just get Bert Rutan out of retirement and point him at the problem.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Great ideas all around. Install a rear view camera...reinvent the tow plane. Has anyone ever tried to get an A&P to invert the Schweizer hook or extend the release handle so it would be easily reachable? It seemed to me that it required an act of God and an amendment to the Constitution to accomplish something like this. Maybe I was just being put off...
I had to argue for the purchase of a mixture cable for a Pawnee. I guess if you have enough money and are willing to spend it you can accomplish anything. It remains to be seen how quickly the commercial operations will come back after this Chinese Communist Virus has decimated our economy. People might not be willing to take the chance of exposing themselves to others and exponentially increase their chances of becoming ill. Don't expect the commercial operation owners or the club members to make big expenditures under these circumstances.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Bob Youngblood
May 15th 20, 10:46 PM
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Great ideas all around. Install a rear view camera...reinvent the tow plane. Has anyone ever tried to get an A&P to invert the Schweizer hook or extend the release handle so it would be easily reachable? It seemed to me that it required an act of God and an amendment to the Constitution to accomplish something like this. Maybe I was just being put off...
>
> I had to argue for the purchase of a mixture cable for a Pawnee. I guess if you have enough money and are willing to spend it you can accomplish anything. It remains to be seen how quickly the commercial operations will come back after this Chinese Communist Virus has decimated our economy. People might not be willing to take the chance of exposing themselves to others and exponentially increase their chances of becoming ill. Don't expect the commercial operation owners or the club members to make big expenditures under these circumstances.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Walt, this is getting abit crazy, next to come will be a ballistic charge that will explode and remove the tow assembly from the tow plane while ensuring the safety of all involved.
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 5:46:22 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Great ideas all around. Install a rear view camera...reinvent the tow plane. Has anyone ever tried to get an A&P to invert the Schweizer hook or extend the release handle so it would be easily reachable? It seemed to me that it required an act of God and an amendment to the Constitution to accomplish something like this. Maybe I was just being put off...
> >
> > I had to argue for the purchase of a mixture cable for a Pawnee. I guess if you have enough money and are willing to spend it you can accomplish anything. It remains to be seen how quickly the commercial operations will come back after this Chinese Communist Virus has decimated our economy. People might not be willing to take the chance of exposing themselves to others and exponentially increase their chances of becoming ill. Don't expect the commercial operation owners or the club members to make big expenditures under these circumstances.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
>
> Walt, this is getting abit crazy, next to come will be a ballistic charge that will explode and remove the tow assembly from the tow plane while ensuring the safety of all involved.
Bob, A ballistic parachute would be good too along with airbags inside the cockpit to protect the tow pilot and a fire suppression system activated on impact. And I remember having to get ****ed to have someone order a friggin' mixture cable.
I would never in a thousand years think that one would need to be concerned with an instructor pilot screwing up, I thought the squirrels were just old duffers and 15 year old kids with the light on but nobody home. Fact is that the poor guy in this instance didn't stand a chance at the altitude the glider kited. It wouldn't have made a bit of difference if he was flying the Yellow Gorilla, he still would have been doomed.
Still lots of tow pilots out there with Schweizer hooks with standard installation, releases down on the floor and oblivious to the danger in which they have put themselves. I know a lot of operations have made significant changes but still I'm afraid most have not, this is the way we have always done it, the old mantra.
Flying tow is fun, I enjoyed almost 3 years and 7000 tows but the guy or girl in back of you can be too unpredictable. I know I'll get a lot of crap for this but I really think a minimum flight physical needs to be required for glider pilots. Many have bad eyesight, hypertension, diabetes, things that could go wrong with them and might also kill the tow pilot. If it was just the glider pilot I would be okay but it's not just the glider pilot, the tow pilot's life is in the mix. When I can no longer get by my AME it will be time to stop flying.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Peter Whitehead
May 16th 20, 08:21 AM
Kiting is a possibility, therefore it will happen, at however low a frequency, in the future.
The glider pilot(s) are at low risk.
Below 1000ft the tug pilot is at extreme risk. Above 1000ft it is very unpleasant indeed.
The process of tug upset happens very quickly, the time from start to finish (finish being the tug in an unrecoverable position) lasts a few (2 to 3) seconds.
People are imperfect, any system to prevent the outcome must engineer this in.
It is my opinion that only an AUTOMATIC system to dump the glider (a very reliable one, with a reliability similar to a personal emergency 'chute) will reduce this risk to acceptable or near zero.
We now have accelerometers even in phones and cameras, so it is time these were applied to the problem. Airbags in cars' go off' with such input, they don't wait for the driver to fire them.
The key changes to the tug dynamically are a rapid deceleration and a rapid rotation in pitch,to a steep pitch angle.
All these inputs would available to a system to automatically release or cut the rope.
No amount of mirrors, video cameras, better release handles or release units etc will solve this one, though these would provide some mitigation.
(Pete has been gliding in UK for 48 Yrs. The only deaths he has personally witnessed were in two such tug upset accidents)
Bob Youngblood
May 16th 20, 08:47 AM
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 8:29:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 5:46:22 PM UTC-4, Bob Youngblood wrote:
> > On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 4:36:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Great ideas all around. Install a rear view camera...reinvent the tow plane. Has anyone ever tried to get an A&P to invert the Schweizer hook or extend the release handle so it would be easily reachable? It seemed to me that it required an act of God and an amendment to the Constitution to accomplish something like this. Maybe I was just being put off...
> > >
> > > I had to argue for the purchase of a mixture cable for a Pawnee. I guess if you have enough money and are willing to spend it you can accomplish anything. It remains to be seen how quickly the commercial operations will come back after this Chinese Communist Virus has decimated our economy. People might not be willing to take the chance of exposing themselves to others and exponentially increase their chances of becoming ill. Don't expect the commercial operation owners or the club members to make big expenditures under these circumstances.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
> >
> > Walt, this is getting abit crazy, next to come will be a ballistic charge that will explode and remove the tow assembly from the tow plane while ensuring the safety of all involved.
>
> Bob, A ballistic parachute would be good too along with airbags inside the cockpit to protect the tow pilot and a fire suppression system activated on impact. And I remember having to get ****ed to have someone order a friggin' mixture cable.
>
> I would never in a thousand years think that one would need to be concerned with an instructor pilot screwing up, I thought the squirrels were just old duffers and 15 year old kids with the light on but nobody home. Fact is that the poor guy in this instance didn't stand a chance at the altitude the glider kited. It wouldn't have made a bit of difference if he was flying the Yellow Gorilla, he still would have been doomed.
>
> Still lots of tow pilots out there with Schweizer hooks with standard installation, releases down on the floor and oblivious to the danger in which they have put themselves. I know a lot of operations have made significant changes but still I'm afraid most have not, this is the way we have always done it, the old mantra.
>
> Flying tow is fun, I enjoyed almost 3 years and 7000 tows but the guy or girl in back of you can be too unpredictable. I know I'll get a lot of crap for this but I really think a minimum flight physical needs to be required for glider pilots. Many have bad eyesight, hypertension, diabetes, things that could go wrong with them and might also kill the tow pilot. If it was just the glider pilot I would be okay but it's not just the glider pilot, the tow pilot's life is in the mix. When I can no longer get by my AME it will be time to stop flying.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow PIlot
> Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Walt, I will get serious at this point and make a express my true feelings about increasing tow pilot safety. There is NOT enough emphasis during the training aspect and even in recurrent flight reviews on TOW PILOT SAFETY!! Expectations from the tow pilot are every bit or more important than the expectations from the instructor. Most instructors don't even fly both ends of the rope, have never been in a tow plane, and are required to accept minimum standards.
It was stated earlier that the instructor should test the student or recurrent training pilot and see if they fall for the distraction quiz. See if you as an instructor can distract the trainee enough to take their eyes off the tow plane and when they do quickly pull the release and when you land have a good conversation with all three involved stressing the importance of their responsibility to keep things safe for all parties.
I encourage all tow pilots to communicate to glider pilot whether it be a student or a seasoned veteran what your expectations are, including utilization of a good checklist.
Pete, If creating an automated system is the way to prevent accidents, why not go all the way, just fly Condor, that way theres no accident......The creation of an automated system for release is not the solution! It in fact, builds complexity into the system and thus additional opportunity for **** to go wrong.
Others have said it well here, its proper training and not being an idiot in the cockpit that is the solution, not some over engineered apparatus that will never get approved.
The very first time an idiot glider flier exhibits signs of cockpit distraction on tow, be they a 1 hour or 1000 hour pilot, they need a LOUD and PUBLIC dressing down!!! The consequences of their actions need to be ingrained in their psyche! I will tell you, the idiot who kitted on me by trying to recover his cell phone, has NEVER forgotten what he received from me on that day!
Dan
Peter Whitehead
May 16th 20, 01:39 PM
If we could guarantee the glider pilot would never be stupid, or get distracted (insect bites, battery going bang, medical problem etc etc) there would be no problem to solve.
Giving a miscreant a 'talking to' or a permanent ban may give some satisfaction, but it is retrospective.
Imploring people to have brain in gear and 'be safe',or give more training may make one feel one is addressing the issue but it will fail to stop these occurrences.
I don't regard an engineering solution as particularly complex. The sensors and simple processing power (much less than in your phone) would be easy to source.The mechanics of the rope release would be simple.
Failure to operate would leave us in the same position as now. Inadvertent operation would dump the glider... unlikely to cause death or serious injury.
Certification is a hurdle, but do we not think it would be worth it? The FAA does consider positively any obvious safety enhancements..it may take time but doesn't that mean start as soon as possible?
The costs? Yes it would cost, but development could be in the hands of Universities or manufacturers (eg TOST).
How much would I personally give if only I could bring back my two deceased tug pilot colleagues?
How much would we all give to prevent future tug upset fatalities?
I am considering switching off my auto's airbags, going to 'manual'. It is far too complex. I am sure I would have enough time
during the tyre squeals to press the button.
I'm not being serious, of course.
So an automatic system for me, please.
I shall not post anything further (until the next tug upset fatality). Good luck. Pete
> "I encourage all tow pilots to communicate to glider pilot whether it be a student or a seasoned veteran what your expectations are, including utilization of a good checklist."
Good idea Bob. I remember going to someone who had returned from a long soaring session to ask him what happened on his tow. At about 400 feet it appeared he had forgotten he was on tow for some reason and I found my tail being jerked hard to one side. It was a rather exciting recovery and he almost got the rope. I was polite, well polite for me. His response was that he needed to adjust his condom catheter, his PENIS was in pain. My response was that the ONLY thing he needed to do was keep his eyes on me and stay in position to which he began to gesture violently and brush me off. What I should have done was tell him that if he wanted a tow again he would have to get it on a day someone else was flying tow. He was a very experienced pilot, a much older guy, a retired physician and as someone who spent much my life working with physicians as a technologist or high end medical sales I can tell you that they know more than anyone, including things other than medicine. At least they want you to think such.
Tow pilots should have the option to not tow anyone who has demonstrated an inability to exercise proper decision making.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Sci Fi
May 16th 20, 01:46 PM
Nobody has yet mentioned that, having seen the video, that for several
seconds before the upset, the Tow-Plane's main wheels were not on the
horizon. We were taught at our club to maintain the wheels on the
horizon, is this not taught in the USA..?
We were also taught to release if we loose sight of the Tow-Plane, but I
interpreted that wrongly as, 'If he went into Cloud'.
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:39:46 AM UTC-4, Peter Whitehead wrote:
> If we could guarantee the glider pilot would never be stupid, or get distracted (insect bites, battery going bang, medical problem etc etc) there would be no problem to solve.
> Giving a miscreant a 'talking to' or a permanent ban may give some satisfaction, but it is retrospective.
> Imploring people to have brain in gear and 'be safe',or give more training may make one feel one is addressing the issue but it will fail to stop these occurrences.
> I don't regard an engineering solution as particularly complex. The sensors and simple processing power (much less than in your phone) would be easy to source.The mechanics of the rope release would be simple.
> Failure to operate would leave us in the same position as now. Inadvertent operation would dump the glider... unlikely to cause death or serious injury.
> Certification is a hurdle, but do we not think it would be worth it? The FAA does consider positively any obvious safety enhancements..it may take time but doesn't that mean start as soon as possible?
> The costs? Yes it would cost, but development could be in the hands of Universities or manufacturers (eg TOST).
> How much would I personally give if only I could bring back my two deceased tug pilot colleagues?
> How much would we all give to prevent future tug upset fatalities?
> I am considering switching off my auto's airbags, going to 'manual'. It is far too complex. I am sure I would have enough time
> during the tyre squeals to press the button.
> I'm not being serious, of course.
> So an automatic system for me, please.
> I shall not post anything further (until the next tug upset fatality). Good luck. Pete
Peter, with all due respect sir, your 48 years of soaring eclipses mine substantially. Many good comments and Ideas but I have to tell you if the FAA really took seriously any obvious safety enhancements the Schweizer hooks installed conventionally and the release handles down on the floor would have been handled decades ago. The NTSB investigates and makes suggestions which the FAA largely ignores as I am told by pilots of much greater experience than myself. Look up "Tow Plane Upsets" and "letter to the FAA" by Walt Connelly on this site, it will give you an idea of how the soaring community feels. The FAA Advisory Circular on this subject clearly indicates that they are aware of the hazards. The SSA in their own publications IN BIG RED LETTERS indicate that they are aware of the potential hazards currently not being addressed. While none of these would have interdicted the situation resulting in the death of the tow pilot in California they are still conditions which have not been adequately addressed by the soaring community as a whole and which may well result in deaths of tow pilots down the line.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Yes Bob I know the type. What I probable would have done if I didn’t dump him on tow, was go up to him and give that catheter tube a good yank! That might have gotten his head out of hid ass more effectively.
Dan
Tom[_21_]
May 16th 20, 02:25 PM
Kiting and loss of control of the glider on tow happens more than is known. There are not accurate statistics or data tracked so most of the information is anecdotal or comes after a tragedy.
We are, as a community, extremely challenged by our aversion to checklist, cockpit and single pilot resource management as well as Aeronautical Decision Making. This can be traced partially to poor training, inconsistent procedures and lack of discipline. Attitudes matter.
Look at the shared risk pool, the high and climbing insurance costs, the accidents over the last years, the hazardous attitudes, diminished expectations as well as the sport in decline.
Same types of accidents at very high per-capita rates. Technology solutions may help but until the sport makes a concerted, coherent and consistent full court press the trends will continue. Not hard to predict the future here.
Regards, Tom
Tom[_21_]
May 16th 20, 02:30 PM
Kiting and loss of control of the glider on tow happens more than is known. There are not accurate statistics or data tracked so most of the information is anecdotal or comes after a tragedy.
We are, as a community, extremely challenged by our aversion to checklists, right cockpit discipline and good single pilot resource management as well as incorporating effective Aeronautical Decision Making. This can be traced partially to poor training, inconsistent procedures and lack of discipline. Attitudes matter.
Look at the shared risk pool, the high and climbing insurance costs, the accidents over the last years, the hazardous attitudes, diminished expectations as well as the sport in decline.
Same types of accidents at very high per-capita rates. Technology solutions may help but until the sport makes a concerted, coherent and consistent full court press the trends will continue. Not hard to predict the future here.
Regards, Tom
Rhubarb[_2_]
May 16th 20, 05:09 PM
I believe that full up elevator is what the towpilot will instinctively do in a kite siuation. This device will detect that and hopefully not give any false positives
release logic something like:-
1) GPS groundspeed > ~60kmh for > for ~5 seconds (so its not an engine test)
2) engine throttle > ~80% > for ~5 seconds (so its a take-off)
3) full up elevator (for more then ~0.2 second to filter out a knock)
when 1) and 2) are satisfied the system is "armed". A low groundspeed or Landing flaps could disarm it
I have chosen a low groundspeed in 1) to accomodate a strong head wind
GPS groundspeed and full elevator are easy to measure. Throttle a little trickier - maybe one could use flaps instead. tweak as necessary
Manual override, arm and disarm switches in the cockpit of course. some LEDs.
a simple embedded CPU costing 1$ can easily handle this and is very reliable. The BOM could be under 50$. This can be built by a hobbyist.
The tricky bit is
* Mounting the sensors
* triggering the release if its not electical
Peter
Ramy[_2_]
May 16th 20, 06:50 PM
Pete, very well said. It is frustrating to hear folks believing that training fix everything and that a trained/experienced/smart pilot will never make a mistake due to distraction or “tunnel vision”. We heard similar arguments against devices like flarm and ADS-B, just look outside.
Ramy
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:10:01 PM UTC-4, Rhubarb wrote:
> I believe that full up elevator is what the towpilot will instinctively do in a kite siuation. This device will detect that and hopefully not give any false positives
>
> release logic something like:-
> 1) GPS groundspeed > ~60kmh for > for ~5 seconds (so its not an engine test)
> 2) engine throttle > ~80% > for ~5 seconds (so its a take-off)
> 3) full up elevator (for more then ~0.2 second to filter out a knock)
>
> when 1) and 2) are satisfied the system is "armed". A low groundspeed or Landing flaps could disarm it
>
> I have chosen a low groundspeed in 1) to accomodate a strong head wind
>
> GPS groundspeed and full elevator are easy to measure. Throttle a little trickier - maybe one could use flaps instead. tweak as necessary
>
> Manual override, arm and disarm switches in the cockpit of course. some LEDs.
>
> a simple embedded CPU costing 1$ can easily handle this and is very reliable. The BOM could be under 50$. This can be built by a hobbyist.
>
> The tricky bit is
> * Mounting the sensors
> * triggering the release if its not electical
>
> Peter
Airspeed is probably better than ground speed.
To sense departure from "normal" measuring line tension and angle are probably the most useful. With those available rate of change of the two would be a very useful indicator of things getting out of hand.
FWIW
UH
Seems to me that the most fool-proof solution is the line tension sensor and a little bit of accumulative logic.
We had a discussion on the club group about this and the example used was a 1800lb tow-plane, 700lb glider being towed. Kiting event takes 2 seconds, ends up with the glider gaining 100ft. Starting speed 60mph (glider being a 1-26). After 2 seconds of glider kiting the glider speed is 75 mph, tow-plane speed is 40mph. Average tension on the rope is 900lb and the tow-plane experiences 1/2G deceleration along the longitudal axis. One could just set a longitudal axis g-meter and alert/cut the line at .5G, but that might trip with slack rope etc. Having a rope tension sensor calculate energy loss due to the pull on rope over the last .1, .2 ,.3 seconds would be easy. The hard part would be to decide what the limit should be. One might test this with boxing the wake, tows trough rotor etc. If the event starts fast, the rope angle doesn't really get much above normal (in reference to the tow-plane) since the strong pull on the rope easily lifts the tail. The energy loss for the tow-plane is the bigger problem.
Matt Herron Jr.
May 16th 20, 08:46 PM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, Peter Whitehead wrote:
> If we could guarantee the glider pilot would never be stupid, or get distracted (insect bites, battery going bang, medical problem etc etc) there would be no problem to solve.
> Giving a miscreant a 'talking to' or a permanent ban may give some satisfaction, but it is retrospective.
> Imploring people to have brain in gear and 'be safe',or give more training may make one feel one is addressing the issue but it will fail to stop these occurrences.
> I don't regard an engineering solution as particularly complex. The sensors and simple processing power (much less than in your phone) would be easy to source.The mechanics of the rope release would be simple.
> Failure to operate would leave us in the same position as now. Inadvertent operation would dump the glider... unlikely to cause death or serious injury.
> Certification is a hurdle, but do we not think it would be worth it? The FAA does consider positively any obvious safety enhancements..it may take time but doesn't that mean start as soon as possible?
> The costs? Yes it would cost, but development could be in the hands of Universities or manufacturers (eg TOST).
> How much would I personally give if only I could bring back my two deceased tug pilot colleagues?
> How much would we all give to prevent future tug upset fatalities?
> I am considering switching off my auto's airbags, going to 'manual'. It is far too complex. I am sure I would have enough time
> during the tyre squeals to press the button.
> I'm not being serious, of course.
> So an automatic system for me, please.
> I shall not post anything further (until the next tug upset fatality). Good luck. Pete
Peter,
I am with you on this one. I envision a self-contained guillotine module that you pass the tow rope through, (works with a static line or reel system). It uses a charge similar to the way a modern table saw can stop a spinning blade before it can scratch a hotdog put in its path. A modular replacement of the charge module could be performed in minutes (at a cost of $500 to the offending glider pilot). Powered by the towplane electrical system, with a light on the dash showing it is operational. Triggered, as you suggest, by the correct profile of deceleration and rotation.
Who wants to design it?
Matt
First time you have a malfunction with one of these contraptions here comes the lawsuit and good by contraption.
With the “technology will fix everything “ mentally, maybe you guys need to design stall/spin proof gliders, cause after all we can’t trust that guys will not be distracted and spin in. Ph we can’t do that, it will impinge on ship performance.you can’t always engineer out “stupid “.
While we’re talking about malfunctions, I was told that the Guillotine used in our winches, will quickly become coated with fir particles from the rope as it is retracted, over and over again, resulting in a jammed Guillotine..............as in, IT WONT CUT THE ROPE! Also, if the rope isn’t under tension, the guillotine may just shove it to one side and WONT CUT THE ROPE!
This from a guy that has installed many winches and tested them on annual inspections!
Recommend you clean guillotine’s weekly and have them tested annually,
JJ
jfitch
May 17th 20, 01:16 AM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 2:19:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> First time you have a malfunction with one of these contraptions here comes the lawsuit and good by contraption.
>
> With the “technology will fix everything “ mentally, maybe you guys need to design stall/spin proof gliders, cause after all we can’t trust that guys will not be distracted and spin in. Ph we can’t do that, it will impinge on ship performance.you can’t always engineer out “stupid “.
While the product liability problem can be solved with shell corporations, let's not confuse a stall/spin accident with a tow kiting accident. The former kills the perpetrator, the latter kills innocent bystanders.
If you are confident in the skills and training of everyone you tow, then why have a release on the towplane at all? What could possibly go wrong?
Matt Herron Jr.
May 17th 20, 02:14 AM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 2:19:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> First time you have a malfunction with one of these contraptions here comes the lawsuit and good by contraption.
>
> With the “technology will fix everything “ mentally, maybe you guys need to design stall/spin proof gliders, cause after all we can’t trust that guys will not be distracted and spin in. Ph we can’t do that, it will impinge on ship performance.you can’t always engineer out “stupid “.
I have about four dozen patents to my name, but I guess I had better stop designing things right away! I don't want to get sued. In fact, we should probably just close the patent office. Too dangerous to encourage this type of inventive behavior.
Where do you draw the line on using technology to enhance safety? Do you use FLARM? an ELT? an airspeed indicator? do you wear shoes?
People are getting killed here, through no fault of their own. If some device as simple as an airbag could give them a fighting chance, it' worth doing.
Matt
Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated” technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental”!
As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe” contraption you could possibly design.
Mike Schumann[_2_]
May 17th 20, 06:26 AM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:44:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated” technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental”!
>
> As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe” contraption you could possibly design.
Accidents like this can happen to anyone, regardless of their training, reputation, or experience. There are all kinds of scenarios that can trigger a kiting event. One particular danger, given the demographics of our glider pilots, is sudden pilot incapacitation, such as having a heart attack or a stroke.
Having an automatic release mechanism sounds like a reasonable safety enhancement that should be relatively doable from a technology perspective. There are number of approaches, including a simple mechanical system based on pulling all the way back on the tow plane stick, or some mechanical or electronic mechanism that can detect an upward force on the tow hook that exceeds the elevator authority of the tow plane.
John Foster
May 17th 20, 09:03 AM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 11:26:06 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:44:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated” technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental”!
> >
> > As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe” contraption you could possibly design.
>
> Accidents like this can happen to anyone, regardless of their training, reputation, or experience. There are all kinds of scenarios that can trigger a kiting event. One particular danger, given the demographics of our glider pilots, is sudden pilot incapacitation, such as having a heart attack or a stroke.
>
> Having an automatic release mechanism sounds like a reasonable safety enhancement that should be relatively doable from a technology perspective. There are number of approaches, including a simple mechanical system based on pulling all the way back on the tow plane stick, or some mechanical or electronic mechanism that can detect an upward force on the tow hook that exceeds the elevator authority of the tow plane.
I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing the ring.
Mike, true, guys can have a heart attack or stroke on a tow, but in the past 10 years how many heart attack related tow accidents have we had? Like zero. Here is reality: 99.999% of tow kitting accidents are bone head related! What is so damn hard about ramming into a guys head that he has to be totally focussed the first 1000 ft of a tow? If I sat behind any of you with a 356 magnum held to your head and told you if you get distracted and kite I will pull the trigger! YOU WOULD DO WHATEVER IT TOOK to not kite.
Landing specially off field tales total concentration, and most guys understand that fact, why shouldn’t we insist the same for the first 1000ft of a tow? If you kite on me above that I don’t care, I can handle whatever you throw at me (been there),
Johns idea of something mechanical and simple has some merit for realistic application but that really will not solve a problem which is not mechanical but mental. If it is asking too much for total concentration on takeoff n tow, maybe we’re asking too much for the same on landing. Under those propounding a technological fix, maybe we need to develop a glider auto pilot with autoland functionality. You say “well landing involves a guy killing only himself “, what about gaggles? Maybe we need an automated system to take control of the ship when its too close to another guy? See the point ? When does it turn into ridiculousness?
Is the tow kiting issue serious? Yes. With all this discussion this week here, I was the tow pilot for yesterday’s club ops. I personally talked to all the guys flying, some experienced, some newbies. We discussed what ifs, the critical nature of my life being virtually in their hands the first few minutes of every tow. All were appreciative and attentive to my concerns. Before every tow after the line was taught, I stopped and asked each pilot to physically check their canopies AND to pay the Fin attention completely the first 1000ft of tow. Not hard, didn’t take much time, but it put guys on alert .
If every operation did these things, we could prevent/minimize the majority of these accidents.
Will bone heads still kill themselves and others? Yes but they will be rare and few. In that case I will take my chances on the 1 in a million heart attack. Unless you want to design, install and mandate the automatic cockpit EEG.
Dan
krasw
May 17th 20, 01:10 PM
In kiting situation tow pilot most likely is pulling the stick with both hands. If the tow release would be electrically actuated with trigger on the stick?
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 17th 20, 01:23 PM
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:10:01 AM UTC-7, Rhubarb wrote:
> I believe that full up elevator is what the towpilot will instinctively do in a kite siuation. This device will detect that and hopefully not give any false positives
>
> release logic something like:-
> 1) GPS groundspeed > ~60kmh for > for ~5 seconds (so its not an engine test)
> 2) engine throttle > ~80% > for ~5 seconds (so its a take-off)
> 3) full up elevator (for more then ~0.2 second to filter out a knock)
>
> when 1) and 2) are satisfied the system is "armed". A low groundspeed or Landing flaps could disarm it
>
> I have chosen a low groundspeed in 1) to accomodate a strong head wind
>
> GPS groundspeed and full elevator are easy to measure. Throttle a little trickier - maybe one could use flaps instead. tweak as necessary
>
> Manual override, arm and disarm switches in the cockpit of course. some LEDs.
>
> a simple embedded CPU costing 1$ can easily handle this and is very reliable. The BOM could be under 50$. This can be built by a hobbyist.
>
> The tricky bit is
> * Mounting the sensors
> * triggering the release if its not electical
>
> Peter
Wouldn't it be easier to design an electrical detach of tow rope by a button on the stick or throttle. This way the tow pilot decides and it would take a fraction of a second to activate. As stated before, helicopters use both a stick mounted electronic release and a stick mounted Manuel release. Full disclaimer, I am not a tow pilot, not a mechanic, can afford new tape each time I assemble, and I don't unbuckle to stand up in flight to untangle yaw strings. A few days ago I would have thought that was normal, now I am confused.
LOL Jonathan that last part got me laughing, me too lol.
Dan
LOV2AV8
May 17th 20, 03:29 PM
Applebay tow hook used on the Zuni and I've heard of it installed on ASW 20's we I'll not allow a very high kiting excursion.
Randy "AV8"
> Wouldn't it be easier to design an electrical detach of tow rope by a button on the stick or throttle. This way the tow pilot decides and it would take a fraction of a second to activate. As stated before, helicopters use both a stick mounted electronic release and a stick mounted Manuel release.. Full disclaimer, I am not a tow pilot, not a mechanic, can afford new tape each time I assemble, and I don't unbuckle to stand up in flight to untangle yaw strings. A few days ago I would have thought that was normal, now I am confused.
Hi Jonathan,
there was an attempt to discuss just a solution like that in the 'KGARS - Kiting Glider Automatic Release System' thread on May 15 but it got buried in the chatter.
I think that an electrically triggered system utilizing a capped switch (uncapped (armed) at the beginning of the launch, capped (secured) after the glider has released) has merits over some complicated self-releasing mechanism with all sorts of electronics, which harbors the potential of inadvertently dumping a glider on the other side of the airport fence. Apply the KISS-principle.
Uli
'AS'
Tom BravoMike
May 17th 20, 11:08 PM
>
> I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing the ring.
See what I wrote early in the thread and what response I got:
"We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?"
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 18th 20, 12:24 AM
On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:08:51 -0700, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>> I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that
>> extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety
>> significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a
>> particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically
>> opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to
>> make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope
>> under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the
>> towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing
>> the ring.
>
> See what I wrote early in the thread and what response I got:
>
> "We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch
> launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which
> causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar
> solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at
> kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?"
Nobody has yet referred to the series of experiments carried out in 1978
and 1982 by Chris Rollings at Booker in the UK. I've just put a copy of a
summary report he wrote some time after 2000 on my website:
https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/kiting_on_tow
This describes both sets of tests as well as a his explanation of why, in
his opinion, an automatic release based on line angle is unlikely to
work.
IIRC this is not the original report, which I've never seen. If anybody
reading this has seen an earlier version, especially one with diagrams or
photos in it, please post a link or give a reference if its in a gliding
magazine.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:24:19 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:08:51 -0700, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>
>
> >> I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that
> >> extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety
> >> significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a
> >> particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically
> >> opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to
> >> make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope
> >> under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the
> >> towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing
> >> the ring.
> >
> > See what I wrote early in the thread and what response I got:
> >
> > "We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch
> > launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which
> > causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar
> > solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at
> > kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?"
>
> Nobody has yet referred to the series of experiments carried out in 1978
> and 1982 by Chris Rollings at Booker in the UK. I've just put a copy of a
> summary report he wrote some time after 2000 on my website:
>
> https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/kiting_on_tow
>
> This describes both sets of tests as well as a his explanation of why, in
> his opinion, an automatic release based on line angle is unlikely to
> work.
>
> IIRC this is not the original report, which I've never seen. If anybody
> reading this has seen an earlier version, especially one with diagrams or
> photos in it, please post a link or give a reference if its in a gliding
> magazine.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Thanks, Martin - excellent reference! It confirms my suspicion why an automatic release would be problematic!
Uli
'AS'
Matt Herron Jr.
May 18th 20, 02:40 AM
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 4:24:19 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 17 May 2020 15:08:51 -0700, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>
>
> >> I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that
> >> extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety
> >> significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a
> >> particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically
> >> opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to
> >> make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope
> >> under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the
> >> towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing
> >> the ring.
> >
> > See what I wrote early in the thread and what response I got:
> >
> > "We all know how the self-release works on the glider side at winch
> > launching: at a certain angle the rope puts a pressure on a lever which
> > causes the release. Isn't it technically simple to have a similar
> > solution on the tow plane side, a lever above the rope, which pressed at
> > kiting would release the rope immediately? Where am I wrong?"
>
> Nobody has yet referred to the series of experiments carried out in 1978
> and 1982 by Chris Rollings at Booker in the UK. I've just put a copy of a
> summary report he wrote some time after 2000 on my website:
>
> https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/kiting_on_tow
>
> This describes both sets of tests as well as a his explanation of why, in
> his opinion, an automatic release based on line angle is unlikely to
> work.
>
> IIRC this is not the original report, which I've never seen. If anybody
> reading this has seen an earlier version, especially one with diagrams or
> photos in it, please post a link or give a reference if its in a gliding
> magazine.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Interesting read. It still leaves open the possibility of using acceleration and rotation sensors (MEMs) to profile a kiting incident and cut the rope (as mentioned earlier in this thread). It would be easy to record those values (at altitude) with a simulated kiting.
Then we need a reliable rope cutting device, triggered electrically by the MEMs circuit. I just did a conceptual exploration of a guillotine that uses a .22 cal short blank to actuate the blade. I know nothing about guns or munitions, but I am sure someone here has better suggestions for a firing mechanism, released by a melting fuse wire. The firing pin mechanism should be modular and sealed, so replacement is simple and reliable.
Please see screen shots here. As I said, it is all conceptual, and I am looking for input/suggestions. Fire away... https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8o6sbwho3kt6sws/AACljziVH0axwkUoyO9ts-Voa?dl=0
Matt
Brian[_1_]
May 18th 20, 03:12 AM
FLY THE AIRPLANE sounds good on the ground, and is accurate. But seldom mentioned is this might not be that simple.
Losing hat and glasses and anything else loose in the cockpit might make flying it challenging. Trying not to get hit with a canopy that may still be partially be attached could be another issue. Not to mention with one piece canopies you are going to have a lot of wind in your face
Here is a 1st hand account of such an event, Additional info tow rope was a 1/4” hollowbraid rope.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-16/nocan.htm
Brian
On Sunday, 17 May 2020 09:03:07 UTC+1, John Foster wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 11:26:06 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:44:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > Matt, great that you have successful patents. I actually have two of my own. But you probably need to answer your own question, namely when is there enough existing technology? The schweizer and tost have been working successfully for more than 60 years with millions of tows to their credit. Maybe the problem is the modern guy behind the stick and not the “antiquated” technology. Maybe the problem needs to be addressed at the source and not put another bandaid on the festering wound. Taking your analogy and applying it to it’s ridiculous conclusion; why have any aviation training at all? Lets just use engineering to solve every problem of airmanship. Folks the problem is not with the metal (tow hitch) it is with the “mental”!
> > >
> > > As for operating with no tow hitch at all, let me tell you, there are guys I would be totally comfortable with towing them with the rope tied to my tail spring (been there-done that), and there are others I wouldn’t tow with the most highly engineered “fail safe” contraption you could possibly design.
> >
> > Accidents like this can happen to anyone, regardless of their training, reputation, or experience. There are all kinds of scenarios that can trigger a kiting event. One particular danger, given the demographics of our glider pilots, is sudden pilot incapacitation, such as having a heart attack or a stroke.
> >
> > Having an automatic release mechanism sounds like a reasonable safety enhancement that should be relatively doable from a technology perspective. There are number of approaches, including a simple mechacable, co system based on pulling all the way back on the tow plane stick, or some mechanical or electronic mechanism that can detect an upward force on the tow hook that exceeds the elevator authority of the tow plane.
>
> I think a simple mechanical device like a lever arm or cage that extends behind the towplane for a few inches may enhance safety significantly. Something that the tow rope would press against at a particular angle that would activate a lever arm that automatically opens the tow hook and releases the ring. How hard would that be to make? It would be independent of the tow pilot, where if the tow rope under tension pulled at greater than a particular angle to the towplane, it would move the lever back and open the tow hook, releasing the ring.
On Sunday, 17 May 2020 13:23:21 UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:10:01 AM UTC-7, Rhubarb wrote:
> > I believe that full up elevator is what the towpilot will instinctively do in a kite siuation. This device will detect that and hopefully not give any false positives
> >
> > release logic something like:-
> > 1) GPS groundspeed > ~60kmh for > for ~5 seconds (so its not an engine test)
> > 2) engine throttle > ~80% > for ~5 seconds (so its a take-off)
> > 3) full up elevator (for more then ~0.2 second to filter out a knock)
> >
> > when 1) and 2) are satisfied the system is "armed". A low groundspeed or Landing flaps could disarm it
> >
> > I have chosen a low groundspeed in 1) to accomodate a strong head wind
> >
> > GPS groundspeed and full elevator are easy to measure. Throttle a little trickier - maybe one could use flaps instead. tweak as necessary
> >
> > Manual override, arm and disarm switches in the cockpit of course. some LEDs.
> >
> > a simple embedded CPU costing 1$ can easily handle this and is very reliable. The BOM could be under 50$. This can be built by a hobbyist.
> >
> > The tricky bit is
> > * Mounting the sensors
> > * triggering the release if its not electical
> >
> > Peter
>
> Wouldn't it be easier to design an electrical detach of tow rope by a button on the stick or throttle. This way the tow pilot decides and it would take a fraction of a second to activate. As stated before, helicopters use both a stick mounted electronic release and a stick mounted Manuel release.. Full disclaimer, I am not a tow pilot, not a mechanic, can afford new tape each time I assemble, and I don't unbuckle to stand up in flight to untangle yaw strings. A few days ago I would have thought that was normal, now I am confused.
A parallel discussion has arisen on the UK version of this forum.
There have been some memories of tests at one club years ago, deliberately simulating the problem at a safe height.
One thing that two of us remembered is that the tug pilot said it was impossible to pull the release hard enough to let go the rope.
They swapped out the Schweizer hooks and fitted Tost.
I did a search for Schweizer tow hook, and found this, which graphically explains what that difficulty might have been
https://www.soaringsafety.org/learning/wingrunner/images/Image20.gi
f
https://www.soaringsafety.org/learning/wingrunner/connecting.html
Also, a separate comment just above that picture says that sometimes
the ring can go forward and obstruct the release.
I've seen that once, a tug intentionally dropping a rope near the launch point but it didn't fall off. I walked up and found the ring looped forward over the top of the release arm.
In all these discussions about feasibility of designing an automatic release method, first it might be worth reconsidering the tow hook, whether it will let go when the command is issued. Also, will a guillotine definitely work?
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 18th 20, 02:09 PM
On Sun, 17 May 2020 18:40:10 -0700, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> Interesting read. It still leaves open the possibility of using
> acceleration and rotation sensors (MEMs) to profile a kiting incident
> and cut the rope (as mentioned earlier in this thread). It would be
> easy to record those values (at altitude) with a simulated kiting.
>
I have distinct feeling that simpler (to operate) is better, so wonder if
full up elevator on the tow plane would trigger it, i.e. trigger mounted
just behind a spring loaded stick backstop. The spring should be strong
enough that holding the stick back 'normally', e.g. for taxiing in wind,
would not trigger the guillotine but a "we're all about to die!" yank on
the stick would override the spring.
Disclaimer: I am not a power pilot, let alone a tuggie who's been upset
by a glider, so have no idea whether this might work or is just plain
stoopid.
> Then we need a reliable rope cutting device, triggered electrically by
> the MEMs circuit. I just did a conceptual exploration of a guillotine
> that uses a .22 cal short blank to actuate the blade. I know nothing
> about guns or munitions, but I am sure someone here has better
> suggestions for a firing mechanism, released by a melting fuse wire.
> The firing pin mechanism should be modular and sealed, so replacement is
> simple and reliable.
>
> Please see screen shots here. As I said, it is all conceptual, and I am
> looking for input/suggestions. Fire away...
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8o6sbwho3kt6sws/AACljziVH0axwkUoyO9ts-Voa?
dl=0
>
>
Looks good, but something similar using a gas cartridge would
be more acceptable in parts of the world where ammo is relatively
difficult to come by. A solution that got worldwide use would be better
than a US-only solution simply because the market would be bigger and
cost less per unit fitted.
FWIW, the guillotine on most winches are rather strong springs that work
on the chisel on anvil principle - and that were developed back in the
day when the standard rope was 4.5mm steel cable.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 18th 20, 04:57 PM
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:12:16 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> FLY THE AIRPLANE sounds good on the ground, and is accurate. But seldom mentioned is this might not be that simple.
>
> Losing hat and glasses and anything else loose in the cockpit might make flying it challenging. Trying not to get hit with a canopy that may still be partially be attached could be another issue. Not to mention with one piece canopies you are going to have a lot of wind in your face
>
> Here is a 1st hand account of such an event, Additional info tow rope was a 1/4” hollowbraid rope.
>
> http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-16/nocan.htm
>
> Brian
In the situation you just described, my first reaction would be to release from tow. As an early instructor told me, "don't kill the ****ing tow pilot, because it makes you look like an asshole." That is a direct quote by the way. He made a real impression when he snookered me to look away from the tow plane for a second then he released me (because I lost sight of tow). Some of you might have heard how cheap glider pilots are. Well, I had to buy another tow with that lesson learned. I am sure I can make as big a mistake as the next guy, but my DNA is to not kill the guy doing me a favor.
Confused, Jon
On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 9:09:38 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 17 May 2020 18:40:10 -0700, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
>
> > Interesting read. It still leaves open the possibility of using
> > acceleration and rotation sensors (MEMs) to profile a kiting incident
> > and cut the rope (as mentioned earlier in this thread). It would be
> > easy to record those values (at altitude) with a simulated kiting.
> >
> I have distinct feeling that simpler (to operate) is better, so wonder if
> full up elevator on the tow plane would trigger it, i.e. trigger mounted
> just behind a spring loaded stick backstop. The spring should be strong
> enough that holding the stick back 'normally', e.g. for taxiing in wind,
> would not trigger the guillotine but a "we're all about to die!" yank on
> the stick would override the spring.
>
> Disclaimer: I am not a power pilot, let alone a tuggie who's been upset
> by a glider, so have no idea whether this might work or is just plain
> stoopid.
>
> > Then we need a reliable rope cutting device, triggered electrically by
> > the MEMs circuit. I just did a conceptual exploration of a guillotine
> > that uses a .22 cal short blank to actuate the blade. I know nothing
> > about guns or munitions, but I am sure someone here has better
> > suggestions for a firing mechanism, released by a melting fuse wire.
> > The firing pin mechanism should be modular and sealed, so replacement is
> > simple and reliable.
> >
> > Please see screen shots here. As I said, it is all conceptual, and I am
> > looking for input/suggestions. Fire away...
> > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8o6sbwho3kt6sws/AACljziVH0axwkUoyO9ts-Voa?
> dl=0
> >
> >
> Looks good, but something similar using a gas cartridge would
> be more acceptable in parts of the world where ammo is relatively
> difficult to come by. A solution that got worldwide use would be better
> than a US-only solution simply because the market would be bigger and
> cost less per unit fitted.
>
> FWIW, the guillotine on most winches are rather strong springs that work
> on the chisel on anvil principle - and that were developed back in the
> day when the standard rope was 4.5mm steel cable.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
A nail-gun (ram-set) that shoots steel nails into concrete is powered by .22 cal blanks and they should be readily available everywhere.
However, why cut the rope if you can have a parallel actuation of the already existing release mechanism?
Uli
'AS'
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
May 18th 20, 10:35 PM
After reading all the secondary type release options I think I'm with AS.
Either have a Tost Release or a inverted Schweitzer release that could very quickly be operated electrically from a switch on the yoke or control stick..
These kiting accidents happen very fast.
If the Tow pilot IMHO had a electric switch he could actuate by either a button on a switch to dump the rope this could help.
I would imagine it would be fairly easy to engineer a pulling electric solenoid that is attached to the existing release cable, sister-ed on to it. When the tow pilot decides hes had enough, touch the button or slide his hand to activate a switch and release the rope quickly.
Use the existing system your tug has now, just add to it. This system seems so easy maybe I could even build it in a day. Don't try and cut the rope, just release it, very quickly.
Good idea?
Nick
T
On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 2:35:39 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> After reading all the secondary type release options I think I'm with AS.
> Either have a Tost Release or a inverted Schweitzer release that could very quickly be operated electrically from a switch on the yoke or control stick..
> These kiting accidents happen very fast.
> If the Tow pilot IMHO had a electric switch he could actuate by either a button on a switch to dump the rope this could help.
> I would imagine it would be fairly easy to engineer a pulling electric solenoid that is attached to the existing release cable, sister-ed on to it. When the tow pilot decides hes had enough, touch the button or slide his hand to activate a switch and release the rope quickly.
> Use the existing system your tug has now, just add to it. This system seems so easy maybe I could even build it in a day. Don't try and cut the rope, just release it, very quickly.
> Good idea?
> Nick
> T
A big factor in an electric actuator is the force required to open the tow hook. It will be far more than normal, but how much? And how long of a pull? Solenoids are highly non-linear in their pulling force (it increases geometrically as the gap is reduced). I concluded that a linear actuator would be better. To speed it up just drive it with a higher voltage (it wouldn't have to run for very long). I would junk the Schweitzer hooks altogether and switch to a Tost hook.
Tom
Come to think of it, if one agrees with the energy loss via the tow rope being the main issue, one could have a very reliable mechanical solution.
Mount the hook on a shock-absorbed sled, sled slides back enough, the release is pulled. One might have to be able to tune the compression and spring reloading based on what you're towing, but that's a very reliable solution.
Not sure how many tow-pilots would realize what's happening fast enough.
It has been done in Germany during WWII with military gliders. It was called "Hubschlepp". It was tested with a DFS 230 transport glider and a Junkers Ju 87 B-1 as a towplane. The system was very stable, only one of the two pilots had to steer his plane, the other just followed. Climb rate was roughly double that of the normal tow: 5–7 m/s against 2–3 m/s. Service ceiling, autonomy and maximum speed increased also.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugzeugschlepp#Hubschlepp (in German)
See also: Ernst Peter: Der Flugzeugschlepp von den Anfängen bis heute. Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart, 1981.
kirk.stant
May 19th 20, 09:18 PM
How about banning all sideways/aft opening canopies from gliders? An unlocked canopy is a non-event in my LS6 with it's forward hinged canopy. Grobs? Deathtraps!
Or, just ban all canopies, period. Open cockpits are much more relaxing, and there is one less thing to mess up prior to takeoff.
OR, we could switch to using helicopters to aerotow...just put a CG hook on the TOP of the glider, lift vertically to 3000', and cut'em loose. Yee Haw! With a Chinook you could even daisy-chain several gliders and take up the whole club at once - just make sure you release from the bottom up...
Seriously:
1. Replace ALL Schweizer tow hooks with TOST releases (or equivalent) with the release lever close to the throttle. This is a no-brainer.
2. DO NOT TOLERATE ANY out of position/out of view flying by ANY glider pilot. At a minimum, talk to them after a flight with an "incident"; worse case, hand them the rope as soon as they get out of position (within gliding range of the field, of course, if possible).
Kirk
66
George Haeh
May 23rd 20, 12:29 AM
"How about banning all sideways/aft opening canopies from gliders? An unlocked canopy is a non-event in my LS6 with it's forward hinged canopy. Grobs? Deathtraps!"
The problem with a side opening canopy is the overwhelming temptation to save the club $6,000 by holding the canopy down. Unfortunately lack of a third hand can result in a glider write-off or worse. Left rudder can get you back a hand for operating the spoilers, but where is this taught?
With a rear opening canopy, it's gone and your only concern is making a survivable landing, with or without glasses.
Grobs are much less vulnerable to mislatching the canopy than L-33s as the housing to receive the pin is substantially thicker making the gap more obvious. L-33s need a feeler gauge to check if the canopy is actually closed.
Neal Alders
June 1st 20, 09:41 PM
Howdy all, new here, only second post, and please forgive my bloviating, but this has always been a hot button issue for me. My experience is not as vast as some, but 32 years in aviation, nearly 14,000 hours and 19,000 take offs and landings in everything from Sailplanes, tow planes, single engine, multi-engine land and sea, turboprops, Helo's, and now "Heavy Iron".
I haven't flown sailplanes in, effectively, 2 decades. Did my "return" flight just yesterday.
Disclosure, I am a product of UH and Valley Soaring, with a standard operating procedure of Low Tow.
2 thoughts.
1. My "fear" of High Tow, as both a glider pilot AND as a Tow Pilot, has been a MAJOR factor in my failure to return to the sport sooner, and continues to be a significant deterrent of my potential return. (I feel the same way about Wheel Landings in tail draggers, I know how to high tow and wheel land, just not a fan.)
2. If we instilled the same safety enhancing procedures ("One level of safety")in the sport of Soaring as we do in other aspects of aviation, IE Part 121 or 135, I honestly feel high tow would have been essentially outlawed long ago. I encountered VERY similar attitudes in the skydiving industry where I was working as a chief pilot of a very large jump operation. Outright hostility towards change, even safety enhancing change, was unfortunately the normal attitude. It took my preaching to a group of 200+ skydivers over a PA system, to remind them that continued unsafe behavior would cause them to be nothing more than a huge 12 step meeting with really expensive jet fueled filled lawn ornaments sitting on the airport side of the fence. A drop-zone without its pilot is nothing, same goes for a glider operation without tow pilots.
As UH said early in this thread, over 70,000 essentially trouble free low tows at Valley Soaring over many decades, most with Schweizer tow hooks must say something. Low tow is the standard down in Oz, and apparently a few other places in Europe/Scandinavia according to the gentleman I flew with in the 2-33 yesterday. I honestly know more than a half dozen glider and tow pilots that have left the sport due to local clubs refusing low tow after leaving clubs that did for various reasons like job relocations.
I am convinced low tow is SAFER, more EFFICIENT, and I feel would prevent a vast majority of these types of tragedies. Just adding my opinion to the mix, as well as my condolences to those involved in this tragic accident.
Low tow costs NOTHING to try. When it is done properly, it is FAR easier on the glider pilot AND the tow pilot, and has the amazing side effect of being safer. We must not allow this discussion to diverge down the wrong path. Talking about reinventing the wheel and making wholesale, expensive changes to hardware will not work. When a consistent problem keeps popping up at the airline level, we institute carefully thought out and implemented procedural change first. Changing equipment is horrifyingly expensive, and very time consuming. Procedural changes do not take long. And it usually produces the anticipated result. In my opinion, for what ever it is worth, a simple change to how we do things might produce a significantly lower rate of problems. We did it in the jump flying community. Over the last 20 years ONE MAN, who I am honored to call my friend, created a website, disseminated accident data and proposed solutions to the skydiving industry as it pertained to jump flying. It produced a significant 50% REDUCTION in accidents, and his writings have become policy in over 20 nations around the world to be permitted to operate as a jump pilot. He did all this just by suggesting some new, more thorough, training methods and changing the attitudes of those involved. Even a little.
Change to low tow, make sure students and visiting pilots understand the importance of FLY THE PLANE FIRST. Keep the existing equipment properly maintained, maintain effective training methods and attitudes and make sure they all know open canopies, unlocked spoilers or whatever don't matter when low to the ground. Fly the damn plane first. Deal with the other garbage later.
This reminds me, remember watching R/C gliders do R/C Aero tow? Tow plane had the rope attached on top of the wing on or real close to the CG. The glider flew high tow. Why do you think this is? This is not practical on real aircraft.
Ask yourself, why do most operations here use high tow? Anyone know why? Cause I have no idea. Why do we switch to low tow for cross country tows? I remember hearing people flew high tow because they were afraid if the rope broke near the tow plane on low tow it would somehow fight a 60 mph headwind and wrap itself around the control surfaces. Even my 13 year old mind knew that sounded absolutely absurd. It made no sense as even at 13 I knew enough physics to know that was impossible. I never heard another reason for high tow in all my years.
Sorry for the rant. Condolences to everyone involved.
Bob Youngblood
June 1st 20, 11:08 PM
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 4:41:41 PM UTC-4, Neal Alders wrote:
> Howdy all, new here, only second post, and please forgive my bloviating, but this has always been a hot button issue for me. My experience is not as vast as some, but 32 years in aviation, nearly 14,000 hours and 19,000 take offs and landings in everything from Sailplanes, tow planes, single engine, multi-engine land and sea, turboprops, Helo's, and now "Heavy Iron".
>
> I haven't flown sailplanes in, effectively, 2 decades. Did my "return" flight just yesterday.
> Disclosure, I am a product of UH and Valley Soaring, with a standard operating procedure of Low Tow.
>
> 2 thoughts.
>
> 1. My "fear" of High Tow, as both a glider pilot AND as a Tow Pilot, has been a MAJOR factor in my failure to return to the sport sooner, and continues to be a significant deterrent of my potential return. (I feel the same way about Wheel Landings in tail draggers, I know how to high tow and wheel land, just not a fan.)
> 2. If we instilled the same safety enhancing procedures ("One level of safety")in the sport of Soaring as we do in other aspects of aviation, IE Part 121 or 135, I honestly feel high tow would have been essentially outlawed long ago. I encountered VERY similar attitudes in the skydiving industry where I was working as a chief pilot of a very large jump operation. Outright hostility towards change, even safety enhancing change, was unfortunately the normal attitude. It took my preaching to a group of 200+ skydivers over a PA system, to remind them that continued unsafe behavior would cause them to be nothing more than a huge 12 step meeting with really expensive jet fueled filled lawn ornaments sitting on the airport side of the fence. A drop-zone without its pilot is nothing, same goes for a glider operation without tow pilots.
>
> As UH said early in this thread, over 70,000 essentially trouble free low tows at Valley Soaring over many decades, most with Schweizer tow hooks must say something. Low tow is the standard down in Oz, and apparently a few other places in Europe/Scandinavia according to the gentleman I flew with in the 2-33 yesterday. I honestly know more than a half dozen glider and tow pilots that have left the sport due to local clubs refusing low tow after leaving clubs that did for various reasons like job relocations.
>
> I am convinced low tow is SAFER, more EFFICIENT, and I feel would prevent a vast majority of these types of tragedies. Just adding my opinion to the mix, as well as my condolences to those involved in this tragic accident.
>
> Low tow costs NOTHING to try. When it is done properly, it is FAR easier on the glider pilot AND the tow pilot, and has the amazing side effect of being safer. We must not allow this discussion to diverge down the wrong path. Talking about reinventing the wheel and making wholesale, expensive changes to hardware will not work. When a consistent problem keeps popping up at the airline level, we institute carefully thought out and implemented procedural change first. Changing equipment is horrifyingly expensive, and very time consuming. Procedural changes do not take long. And it usually produces the anticipated result. In my opinion, for what ever it is worth, a simple change to how we do things might produce a significantly lower rate of problems. We did it in the jump flying community. Over the last 20 years ONE MAN, who I am honored to call my friend, created a website, disseminated accident data and proposed solutions to the skydiving industry as it pertained to jump flying. It produced a significant 50% REDUCTION in accidents, and his writings have become policy in over 20 nations around the world to be permitted to operate as a jump pilot. He did all this just by suggesting some new, more thorough, training methods and changing the attitudes of those involved. Even a little.
>
> Change to low tow, make sure students and visiting pilots understand the importance of FLY THE PLANE FIRST. Keep the existing equipment properly maintained, maintain effective training methods and attitudes and make sure they all know open canopies, unlocked spoilers or whatever don't matter when low to the ground. Fly the damn plane first. Deal with the other garbage later.
>
> This reminds me, remember watching R/C gliders do R/C Aero tow? Tow plane had the rope attached on top of the wing on or real close to the CG. The glider flew high tow. Why do you think this is? This is not practical on real aircraft.
>
> Ask yourself, why do most operations here use high tow? Anyone know why? Cause I have no idea. Why do we switch to low tow for cross country tows? I remember hearing people flew high tow because they were afraid if the rope broke near the tow plane on low tow it would somehow fight a 60 mph headwind and wrap itself around the control surfaces. Even my 13 year old mind knew that sounded absolutely absurd. It made no sense as even at 13 I knew enough physics to know that was impossible. I never heard another reason for high tow in all my years.
>
> Sorry for the rant. Condolences to everyone involved.
Good point, and I do appreciate your candor. I was probably the guy that was towing you and as I said, it was a pleasure having someone back there that was as steady as you. I apologize for the extended wait, but things do stack up as you were witness to yesterday. The good news is that we are back in the swing of things and moving forward. Doing the number of tows during the last couple of days was encouraging during these challenging times.
Thanks for coming out and you could certainly lend a helping hand, hope you enjoyed the tow with the Yellow Gorilla. Bob
Neal Alders
June 1st 20, 11:22 PM
Bob, you did tow me, and you are a gentleman as always. No worries on the wait, it was a wonderful day for me!
Hightime
June 1st 20, 11:24 PM
I have been flying gliders for a long time and only enter low tow for training to test the students ability to stay in control during aerotow , what I don’t understand is how would low tow be safer . Do you take off and then immediately push down through the prop wash to the low tow position ? 300 AGL is a most critical time due to low level turbulence and height , is this the time to be pushing through propwash to low tow ?
Bob Youngblood
June 1st 20, 11:32 PM
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 6:22:33 PM UTC-4, Neal Alders wrote:
> Bob, you did tow me, and you are a gentleman as always. No worries on the wait, it was a wonderful day for me!
I was a pleasure towing a guy who had been out of the saddle for a while and Tommy and I both complimented you during the afternoon beer drinking session. Just spoke to my friend Carlos #11 in your group and told him to say hello sometime in the future. Bob
BobW
June 2nd 20, 12:05 AM
On 6/1/2020 2:41 PM, Neal Alders wrote:
Some snipping/cutting/inserting below...but first, some personal bloviating
context of my own. (Sorry! It's pretty much unavoidable, IMHO...)
First, I *love* it when "fresh meat" appears on RAS. It's GOOD when "old
hands" get to see "fresh enthusiasms." It's even "gooder" when enthusiasm
isn't "purely raw" but "aviationally informed." Welcome, and thanks for taking
time to raise some genyoowinely-interesting-to-me points involving things that
puzzled me more or less my entire active time as Joe Soaring Pilot...who never
killed a towpilot, or even endangered one. I worked hard not to, and took
quiet pride in flying safely...always wanted to be able to fly the same glider
the next day! And so, on to snipping/cutting/inserting...
> Howdy all, new here, only second post, and please forgive my bloviating,
> but this has always been a hot button issue for me. My experience is not
> as vast as some, but 32 years in aviation, nearly 14,000 hours and 19,000
> take offs and landings in everything from Sailplanes, tow planes, single
> engine, multi-engine land and sea, turboprops, Helo's, and now "Heavy
> Iron".
>
> I haven't flown sailplanes in, effectively, 2 decades. Did my "return"
> flight just yesterday. Disclosure, I am a product of UH and Valley Soaring,
> with a standard operating procedure of Low Tow.
>
> 2 thoughts.
>
> 1. My "fear" of High Tow, as both a glider pilot AND as a Tow Pilot, has
> been a MAJOR factor in my failure to return to the sport sooner, and
> continues to be a significant deterrent of my potential return. (I feel the
> same way about Wheel Landings in tail draggers, I know how to high tow and
> wheel land, just not a fan.) 2. If we instilled the same safety enhancing
> procedures ("One level of safety")in the sport of Soaring as we do in other
> aspects of aviation, IE Part 121 or 135, I honestly feel high tow would
> have been essentially outlawed long ago. I encountered VERY similar
> attitudes in the skydiving industry where I was working as a chief pilot of
> a very large jump operation. Outright hostility towards change, even
> safety enhancing change, was unfortunately the normal attitude. It took my
> preaching to a group of 200+ skydivers over a PA system, to remind them
> that continued unsafe behavior would cause them to be nothing more than a
> huge 12 step meeting with really expensive jet fueled filled lawn ornaments
> sitting on the airport side of the fence. A drop-zone without its pilot is
> nothing, same goes for a glider operation without tow pilots.
The whole "high tow thing" has puzzled me ever since learning
(early-on/1970s?) of low-tow. My best guess as to why there's so much
"investment" in high tow in 'Murica has to do with a weird combination of
mental-inertia and the fact that aerotow likely began with high tow - since
the glider almost-always reached flying speed before the tug "back then." I
imagine the thought process as something like the following...
- "Woo hoo" (thinks Joe Glider Pilot), "I'm FLYing!!!"...
- ...and since he was already in high tow, there he stayed for the rest of
that tow and pretty much the rest of eternity!
It took time (dunno how much, but likely more than a week and maybe more than
a few years?), and some actual ACTIVE thought before anyone "began to explore
low tow." As an aside, it's been - for a LONG time - an item of
somewhat-active personal curiosity of mine to understand how the Aussies came
to "go the universal low tow" route. Maybe we 'Muricans might safely benefit
from their experience? Also, what are their tow pilot death rates
therefrom...hmmm? I don't know the answer and would love for informed Aussies
to begin educating we 'Murican RASidents.
- - - - - -
> As UH said early in this thread, over 70,000 essentially trouble free low
> tows at Valley Soaring over many decades, most with Schweizer tow hooks
> must say something. Low tow is the standard down in Oz, and apparently a
> few other places in Europe/Scandinavia according to the gentleman I flew
> with in the 2-33 yesterday...
<Snip...>>
> Low tow costs NOTHING to try. When it is done properly, it is FAR easier
> on the glider pilot AND the tow pilot, and has the amazing side effect of
> being safer.
Every 'Murican who's aerotowed home for any reason and did so using low tow
has probably had similar "Why do we DO it this way?" sorts of thoughts, "this"
being high-tow-as-the-norm. It's sometimes a bizarro world in which we live!
- - - - - -
> We must not allow this discussion to diverge down the wrong
> path. Talking about reinventing the wheel and making wholesale, expensive
> changes to hardware will not work. When a consistent problem keeps popping
> up at the airline level, we institute carefully thought out and implemented
> procedural change first. Changing equipment is horrifyingly expensive, and
> very time consuming. Procedural changes do not take long. And it usually
> produces the anticipated result. In my opinion, for what ever it is worth,
> a simple change to how we do things might produce a significantly lower
> rate of problems. We did it in the jump flying community. Over the last
> 20 years ONE MAN, who I am honored to call my friend, created a website,
> disseminated accident data and proposed solutions to the skydiving industry
> as it pertained to jump flying. It produced a significant 50% REDUCTION in
> accidents, and his writings have become policy in over 20 nations around
> the world to be permitted to operate as a jump pilot. He did all this just
> by suggesting some new, more thorough, training methods and changing the
> attitudes of those involved. Even a little.
Boy! Betcha $20 the above paragraph will bring outta the woodwork all manner
of strongly-held opinions!! Some will kneejerk take issue with any idea of
"doing things in sport soaring the airline way." (Those guys are proFESSIONALS
dammit; we're doing this for FUN!!!) Others seem deeply invested in
hardware/software "fixes." As a retired long-time manufacturing engineer from
the so-called high-tech field (tape/disk drives, etc.) I'm reasonably
knollichable with hardware-controlling software-development, widget design,
Murphy, etc. In short - and without intending to express any opinion about ANY
of the previously-proposed hardware/software 'fixes of the
high-tow-killing-towpilots-issue - I'm a big philosophical fan of KISS. But
lest we forget "inertial effects" perhaps that's the biggest roadblock to
"solving the dead towpilot issue" IMHO. "We've always done it this way"
groupthink.
Put me in the "Why NOT procedurally change to low-tow-as-the-U.S.-norm?" club.
Other than inertia, I've yet to encounter a substantive argument against so
doing. And, yes, I know "a fair number of" newbie-XC pilots who've aerotowed
home after A/P landings away from the home base who were
advised/instructed/and IMPLEMENTED their Very First low tows under those
circumstances. None had any issues; some joined me in being - at least for a
time! - puzzled as to who we didn't low-tow all the time. (Me? I only ever did
low tows to keep instructors happy. Weird, huh?)
The ONLY seriously-proposed argument I've encountered AGAINST low tow is the
canard that transitioning to it close to the ground MIGHT be more potentially
dangerous than high tow, because of the need to "endure" the tug's wake as Joe
Glider Pilot allows Mr. Tuggie to climb into position. That's pretty thin, IMO.
An aerospacey/engineering-world axiom is: one good test is worth a thousand
informed opinions.
- - - - - -
>
> Change to low tow, make sure students and visiting pilots understand the
> importance of FLY THE PLANE FIRST.
What a concept (that last bit, I mean)! Dirt Simple...but all-too-often
ignored when it matters.
- - - - - -
> Keep the existing equipment properly
> maintained, maintain effective training methods and attitudes and make sure
> they all know open canopies, unlocked spoilers or whatever don't matter
> when low to the ground. Fly the damn plane first. Deal with the other
> garbage later.
"What HE said!!"
- - - - - -
<Snip...>
>
> Ask yourself, why do most operations here use high tow? Anyone know why?
> Cause I have no idea. Why do we switch to low tow for cross country tows?
> I remember hearing people flew high tow because they were afraid if the
> rope broke near the tow plane on low tow it would somehow fight a 60 mph
> headwind and wrap itself around the control surfaces. Even my 13 year old
> mind knew that sounded absolutely absurd. It made no sense as even at 13 I
> knew enough physics to know that was impossible. I never heard another
> reason for high tow in all my years.
Let the Religious Games begin!!!
- - - - - -
>
> Sorry for the rant. Condolences to everyone involved.
Thanks for an informative, thoughtful post!
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 12:05 AM
UH, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 800 or so low tow flights I have done, you never climb and then transition. You stay in ground effect, wait for the tow plane to climb above, then follow. I don't think I ever felt wake turbulence when in low tow, unless it was intentional during training, or when in high tow. I feel far more wake turbulence in high tow than low tow.
Bob, thanks so much for the compliment. It felt like I never left the cockpit. Well, except for the uneasiness being in high tow. I doubt I have more than 50 high tows as a glider pilot in my entire life. LOL
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 12:15 AM
Sorry, forgot to answer your first question. It is safer because, #1 Safer for the tow pilot #2, easier to keep tow plane in sight. Better visibility looking up, than down. Ever lose sight of the tow plane in low tow?
Also, food for thought.
Next time you are in high tow, look at the position of the tow planes elevator relative to the stabilizer. Then, move to proper low tow. (Tip of gliders vertical fin a foot or two below the prop wash, on a Super Cub the horizontal stab should still be below the bottom of the trailing edge of the wing, about an inch of visible light between them) and check the elevator position again. In the Super Cub, the elevator was almost perfectly trailed with the stab in low tow, vs about 30% deflected up elevator in high tow. That tells me it is more efficient, and less aerodynamically loaded.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
June 2nd 20, 12:19 AM
There is nothing to "push down through" with a low tow takeoff.
I started doing it in the '70's at our field, doing rides with it, training students to do it, field checking other pilots at our field.
Yes, we also teach high tow, boxing the wake, etc.
Yes, I also fly high tow at contests, since that is more common at other fields.
One other thing to keep in mind, low tow allows the tow pilot to use trim during normal towing since a proper glider position put the load just about through the thrustline of the towplane.
I won't go further in this discussion since it has been hashed many times just on RAS let alone at various operations.
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 12:33 AM
I have 100% confidence my newness to the board, my Big Iron driving job, and my 2 decade break will no doubt raise a fair bit of dander.
Bring it on baby! LOL
There is a time when airline pilots opinions made me roll my eyes too. However, now that I am in the left seat of said 200,000+ pounds and 228+ lives depending on my decision making abilities, I now regret having that reaction. Well... some of it was deserved! LMAO
The American airline industry went 9 years, and 330 MILLION+ domestic flights with ZERO fatalities. Then a woman not wearing her seat belt got sucked out a 737 window after the engine went into Unscheduled Rapid Disassembly mode.
That record wasn't easy to achieve. And it wasn't an "accident". Regulations are written in blood. It is just as much the culture as the regs. I am paid by the minute to fly the way the boss pays me to fly. Even if I don't agree with it. We have an AMAZING safety culture at Spirit Airlines (let the jokes begin). Go arounds are free (for the idiots who cannot manage energy properly)the management has never second guessed any of my safety calls or decisions or any passenger ejections. I love my airline. Our maintenance and training departments are second to none.
As a result of my exposure to this world, I have begun to question *some* of the things I have seen in my 32 years being around this amazing world of flight. I am getting older, hopefully wiser, and maybe if I'm lucky, a little smarter.
Stumbling across this thread hit a tiny nerve, and I felt I couldn't stay silent. If I **** people off, well, these things happen. Won't be the first time. After 20+ years in the skydiving world, I would rather have friends come up to me ****ed off, then tell them I am sorry at their funeral.
Most solutions are insanely simple. Fighting the headwinds of change are not.
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 5:24:27 PM UTC-5, Hightime wrote:
> I have been flying gliders for a long time and only enter low tow for training to test the students ability to stay in control during aerotow , what I don’t understand is how would low tow be safer . Do you take off and then immediately push down through the prop wash to the low tow position ? 300 AGL is a most critical time due to low level turbulence and height , is this the time to be pushing through propwash to low tow ?
Yes, you stay 3 feet above ground and wait until tow plane climbs to proper low tow position.
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 12:45 AM
And I have ZERO desire to make soaring like airline flying. That would ruin it. Even for me.
However.
The "single level of safety" mindset is what needs to slowly work its way into the mainstream. Too many ego's and not enough cooperation is how people die. The desire to fight the system has to be replaced with asking why the system needs to change, and being a part of the solution instead of the problem. Fix the easy things first, then hit the harder stuff. Sometimes the hard problems disappear after the little problems are solved.
Neal,
This accident occurred when the Glider pilot was distracted by a canopy that swung open. He probably tried to grab it and didn’t maintain proper tow position! Even if he intended to fly low tow, the canopy distraction would result in the same (too high) tow position! I’d bet 90 % of ballooning accident happen on or shortly after takeoff where there is insufficient altitude to attempt low tow maneuvering. I wouldn’t want to attempt going into low tow below 1000 feet ...........an this altitude, 90% of the “ballooning” accidents have already occurred!
I hesitate to even bring this up, but my club had a ballooning accident last year involving a brand new tow pilot making his first tow and an instructor Glider pilot making his first flight the year. The Glider ballooned on takeoff and the tow pilot toggled him off, immediately............some said “too soon”? I didn’t see it and take no position on the issue, but I did see the broken Sailplane sitting in the sagebrush! Our club has no way to give dual tow pilot instruction . A new tow pilot is really making his “first tow”, with no dual instruction on towing whatsoever!
Food for thought,
JJ
Hightime
June 2nd 20, 01:45 AM
I got to try this someday , I’ve never tried it .
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 5:31:40 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Neal,
> This accident occurred when the Glider pilot was distracted by a canopy that swung open. He probably tried to grab it and didn’t maintain proper tow position! Even if he intended to fly low tow, the canopy distraction would result in the same (too high) tow position! I’d bet 90 % of ballooning accident happen on or shortly after takeoff where there is insufficient altitude to attempt low tow maneuvering. I wouldn’t want to attempt going into low tow below 1000 feet ...........an this altitude, 90% of the “ballooning” accidents have already occurred!
>
> I hesitate to even bring this up, but my club had a ballooning accident last year involving a brand new tow pilot making his first tow and an instructor Glider pilot making his first flight the year. The Glider ballooned on takeoff and the tow pilot toggled him off, immediately............some said “too soon”? I didn’t see it and take no position on the issue, but I did see the broken Sailplane sitting in the sagebrush! Our club has no way to give dual tow pilot instruction . A new tow pilot is really making his “first tow”, with no dual instruction on towing whatsoever!
> Food for thought,
> JJ
The whole issue of high tow vs low tow assumes that the glider pilot is in actual control of his/her glider. In a kiting glider accident, the glider is out of control because the pilot is distracted and has effectively stopped flying the glider. All of the training, procedures and haranguing at this point goes out of the window because the pilot has become a passenger. A friend of mine stopped flying tow after being subjected to BOTH an extreme low tow followed by a kiting. He dumped the glider and recovered at the sagebrush level, followed by flying underneath power lines.
As I have said before, I am a firm believer in the KISS principle until it has been proven to me that another approach needs to be taken. And, then, that approach should use only the least complex solution available. I earned my living as a design engineer for over 40 years, so this is not my first rodeo.
Tom
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 01:58 AM
I understand this particular accident was a distracted pilot issue. I was commenting on, and contributing to, the thread drift. My bad in that respect.
This still falls into another category though. Pilot discipline.
Rule number 1. FLY THE F**KING PLANE!
Rule number 2. See rule number 1.
In my studies of accidents (I am working towards getting on my Unions accident investigation team), there is never 1 reason for a crash. There is always 3.
Pilot discipline/distraction is more often in the first reason box than should be. Especially in General Aviation accidents.
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 5:58:03 PM UTC-7, Neal Alders wrote:
> I understand this particular accident was a distracted pilot issue. I was commenting on, and contributing to, the thread drift. My bad in that respect.
>
> This still falls into another category though. Pilot discipline.
>
> Rule number 1. FLY THE F**KING PLANE!
>
> Rule number 2. See rule number 1.
>
> In my studies of accidents (I am working towards getting on my Unions accident investigation team), there is never 1 reason for a crash. There is always 3.
> Pilot discipline/distraction is more often in the first reason box than should be. Especially in General Aviation accidents.
Virtually ALL of kiting glider accidents involve a distracted glider non-pilot. Telling them to fly the ****ing glider will be met with "Right, as soon as I close the canopy - what's your problem?"
Tom
Delta8
June 2nd 20, 04:16 AM
A question for the Low tow advocates . How do CG hooks fare with low tow? Does the rope tend to pull to one side if some slack develops?
If there's a rope break in a low tow are you not in a worse position ?
Preventing cockpit distractions should be part of the pre flight checklist as a reminder . Maybe the last thing on your list ? " Fly first "
Mike the Strike
June 2nd 20, 03:43 PM
>
> As I have said before, I am a firm believer in the KISS principle until it has been proven to me that another approach needs to be taken. And, then, that approach should use only the least complex solution available. I earned my living as a design engineer for over 40 years, so this is not my first rodeo.
>
> Tom
I am a firm advocate of low tow, having flown many tows in both positions over the last 40 years. In high density-altitude conditions and/or with a weak towplane, I believe low tow offers superior aerodynamic efficiency. Having said that, when a sailplane pilot loses control and initiates a kiting scenario, things happen so quickly that there is probably little benefit to being in low tow.
Mike
son_of_flubber
June 2nd 20, 05:09 PM
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 2:43:11 AM UTC-4, Delta8 wrote:
> ... How do CG hooks fare with low tow? ...
Here's another question about low tow:
Has a glider on low tow ever pulled the tail of the towplane DOWN and caused the towplane wing to stall?
Dan Marotta
June 2nd 20, 05:19 PM
Which is worse - a broken glider or a dead tow pilot?
I only had one tow where I yanked the release but the rope had already
broken an instant before.
On 6/1/2020 6:31 PM, wrote:
> Neal,
> This accident occurred when the Glider pilot was distracted by a canopy that swung open. He probably tried to grab it and didn’t maintain proper tow position! Even if he intended to fly low tow, the canopy distraction would result in the same (too high) tow position! I’d bet 90 % of ballooning accident happen on or shortly after takeoff where there is insufficient altitude to attempt low tow maneuvering. I wouldn’t want to attempt going into low tow below 1000 feet ...........an this altitude, 90% of the “ballooning” accidents have already occurred!
>
> I hesitate to even bring this up, but my club had a ballooning accident last year involving a brand new tow pilot making his first tow and an instructor Glider pilot making his first flight the year. The Glider ballooned on takeoff and the tow pilot toggled him off, immediately............some said “too soon”? I didn’t see it and take no position on the issue, but I did see the broken Sailplane sitting in the sagebrush! Our club has no way to give dual tow pilot instruction . A new tow pilot is really making his “first tow”, with no dual instruction on towing whatsoever!
> Food for thought,
> JJ
--
Dan, 5J
Hightime
June 2nd 20, 06:34 PM
How does one combat turbulence and fly smoothly in low tow with the tow plane 2 storeys above you ?
At least high tow puts the towplane and horizon at a reasonable perspective to help with stability .
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 06:43 PM
-A question for the Low tow advocates . How do CG hooks fare with low
tow?
A: No issues I am aware of at all.
-Does the rope tend to pull to one side if some slack develops?
A: Never saw slack in a rope on low tow, but, no.
-If there's a rope break in a low tow are you not in a worse position ?
A: Practiced a fair amount of them, never had an issue. It is really less than a wing span difference in altitude from proper high tow, to proper low tow.
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 06:46 PM
-Here's another question about low tow:
-Has a glider on low tow ever pulled the tail of the towplane DOWN and caused the towplane wing to stall?
A: No idea. Never heard of it happening, But, I would think you would need a proportionate amount of altitude to cause that, and a stall recovery is easier at low altitude when already at full power, especially if you dump the glider, than an extreme nose down at a far lower altitude on take off. Imagine the angles. Would you rather be nose up or nose down at 200 feet?
Neal Alders
June 2nd 20, 06:52 PM
-How does one combat turbulence and fly smoothly in low tow with the tow plane 2 storeys above you ?
At least high tow puts the towplane and horizon at a reasonable perspective to help with stability .
A: In a properly flown low tow, you are almost in "trail" with the tow plane. As in, viewed from tail hook down rope to nose hook. If the tow plane is 2 stories above you, then you are NOT in low tow. You are screwing up, significantly, if you are that low. You should be able to slide up 2 feet and just feel a touch of the tow planes prop wash.
Peter Whitehead
June 2nd 20, 07:28 PM
Is the statement or suggestion that the low tow reduces the insidence of tug upsets based on evidence (eg from Australia, where I understand low tow is the norm) or hunch/belief/'common sense' /anecdotal observation?
The denominator of number of aerotows should be applied to the numbers.
Important question to answer before applying the 'solution' of low tows for everyone, do you not think?
Delta8
June 2nd 20, 09:18 PM
Ok ...How about unmanned Drones? Have a local teenager under a hood flying remotely.
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 1:46:59 PM UTC-4, Neal Alders wrote:
> -Here's another question about low tow:
>
> -Has a glider on low tow ever pulled the tail of the towplane DOWN and caused the towplane wing to stall?
>
> A: No idea. Never heard of it happening, But, I would think you would need a proportionate amount of altitude to cause that, and a stall recovery is easier at low altitude when already at full power, especially if you dump the glider, than an extreme nose down at a far lower altitude on take off. Imagine the angles. Would you rather be nose up or nose down at 200 feet?
We tested that issue 30 years ago using a Super Cub and a 2-33. We were never able to get to where we were pulling the tail down a significant amount. We tested down to tow speeds that went slightly below where the Cub would stall in free flight. Out conclusion was that the tug got more stable with the glider behind.
It is worth noting that most people fly the tow too low based upon my observation of lots of pilots trained at other sites. If you are not occasionally nibling the wake with the vertical tail, you probably are flying too low.
FWIW
UH
Neal Alders
June 3rd 20, 01:08 AM
To answer the Australia Low Tow question, as seen in the The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc Aerotowing Manual
Go to page 44 in this PDF
http://doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2275-aerotowing-manual-ops-0008&category_slug=manuals&Itemid=101
If you cannot or do not want to open the link, here is the text.
10.1.12.High-tow and Low-tow An aircraft in flight generates a “slipstream” behind it.This is a region of turbulent air, originating mainly from large vortices streaming from the wingtips, with small amounts of mechanical turbulence such as propeller wash thrown in for good measure. A glider pilot may choose to fly either above or below this turbulent slipstream(Refer 10.1.10).Australia tends to favour the “low-tow” position.Other countries prefer “high-tow”.
10.1.12.1.Low-tow With a glider in low-tow, below the slipstream, the combination tends to be less pitch sensitive and tow pilots have less difficulty in maintaining attitude for a constant air speed and a stable platform for the glider pilot to follow.
10.1.12.2.High-tow In high-tow, above the slipstream, the combination feels a little more pitch sensitive and tow pilots need to work harder to maintain a constant climb attitude and air speed.The difference is not large and tow pilots should have no difficulty in maintaining a stable platform whichever position the glider pilot chooses.WARNING: HIGH-TOW IS, BY DEFINITION, ABOVE THE SLIPSTREAM, NOT ABOVE THE TOW PLANE. There is one important difference between low-tow and high-tow and this becomes apparent if a glider gets out of position vertically(i.e. too high). In low-tow a glider can get very low and still not cause significant difficulty for the tow pilot in controlling his aircraft.Furthermore, out-of-trim forces tend to change at a slow enough pace that the tow pilot has ample time to release the glider if there is any fear that the limits of elevator control might be reached. In high-tow, things happen more rapidly and the tow pilot will have less time to react to a glider going too high.If a glider that is out of station in high tow(i.e. too high)is not released immediately, there is a risk of the tow plane being pulled out of control.See Section 10.3“The tow plane upset”. Tow pilots need to be trained to tow gliders in both high and low-tow and to experience a glider transitioning between the two positions.To avoid subjective judgements about high-tow and low-tow, the reference for the glider pilot establishing the towing position is always the slipstream.
Neal Alders
June 3rd 20, 01:11 AM
To answer the Australia Low Tow question, as seen in the The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc Aerotowing Manual
Go to page 44 in this PDF, As well as see PDF Page 53 for tow plane upset.
http://doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2275-aerotowing-manual-ops-0008&category_slug=manuals&Itemid=101
If you cannot or do not want to open the link, here is the text.
10.1.12.High-tow and Low-tow An aircraft in flight generates a “slipstream” behind it.This is a region of turbulent air, originating mainly from large vortices streaming from the wingtips, with small amounts of mechanical turbulence such as propeller wash thrown in for good measure. A glider pilot may choose to fly either above or below this turbulent slipstream(Refer 10.1.10).Australia tends to favour the “low-tow” position.Other countries prefer “high-tow”.
10.1.12.1.Low-tow With a glider in low-tow, below the slipstream, the combination tends to be less pitch sensitive and tow pilots have less difficulty in maintaining attitude for a constant air speed and a stable platform for the glider pilot to follow.
10.1.12.2.High-tow In high-tow, above the slipstream, the combination feels a little more pitch sensitive and tow pilots need to work harder to maintain a constant climb attitude and air speed.The difference is not large and tow pilots should have no difficulty in maintaining a stable platform whichever position the glider pilot chooses.WARNING: HIGH-TOW IS, BY DEFINITION, ABOVE THE SLIPSTREAM, NOT ABOVE THE TOW PLANE. There is one important difference between low-tow and high-tow and this becomes apparent if a glider gets out of position vertically(i.e. too high). In low-tow a glider can get very low and still not cause significant difficulty for the tow pilot in controlling his aircraft.Furthermore, out-of-trim forces tend to change at a slow enough pace that the tow pilot has ample time to release the glider if there is any fear that the limits of elevator control might be reached. In high-tow, things happen more rapidly and the tow pilot will have less time to react to a glider going too high.If a glider that is out of station in high tow(i.e. too high)is not released immediately, there is a risk of the tow plane being pulled out of control.See Section 10.3“The tow plane upset”. Tow pilots need to be trained to tow gliders in both high and low-tow and to experience a glider transitioning between the two positions.To avoid subjective judgements about high-tow and low-tow, the reference for the glider pilot establishing the towing position is always the slipstream.
son_of_flubber
June 3rd 20, 02:06 AM
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 1:35:05 PM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
> How does one combat turbulence and fly smoothly in low tow ...
I've had opportunities to aerotow through rotor to fly in wave.
After the tug flies through a patch of lift/sink, time elapses before the glider flies through same patch, and by then the tug may fly through a different patch of lift/sink. Its normal for the glider to move somewhat above and below the optimal high tow position. With practice, I've learned to smooth out this oscillation with elevator and rudder/spoilers, but it is not possible, nor desirable to try to completely eliminate the bobbing above and below optimal position. Attempting to do so leads to overshooting the optimal position. In high tow position, the glider can bob somewhat above and below optimal position without overwhelming the tug's elevator authority.
Is it okay for a glider to bob above and below optimal low tow position?
What about the oscillation in bank angle in rotor that is tolerable in high tow position? Is aileron authority any different in low tow position?
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
June 3rd 20, 02:48 AM
Many recent questions.....many recent answers.....
To answer you, you are just below the propwash, thus the glider controls work perfectly fine. If you get too high, you're in high tow.
If you get too low, the towplane still flies...as "UH" mentioned, several times many years ago (with prior pre tow discussion), we flew "really low tow" as in basically looking at the full belly of the towplane. It still flew but the rope angle was ugly.
Advantage was you still saw the towplane.
Too high, towplane disappears.....yep, sucks to be the towpilot then.....regardless of hitch type.
I have flown low tow through some rather rough (well, rough for where I fly) rotor, no issues other than busy/rough.
I will agree, a kiting situation gets real bad real fast regardless of high vs. low tow.
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 5:11:34 PM UTC-7, Neal Alders wrote:
> To answer the Australia Low Tow question, as seen in the The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc Aerotowing Manual
>
> Go to page 44 in this PDF, As well as see PDF Page 53 for tow plane upset..
>
> http://doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2275-aerotowing-manual-ops-0008&category_slug=manuals&Itemid=101
>
> If you cannot or do not want to open the link, here is the text.
>
> 10.1.12.High-tow and Low-tow An aircraft in flight generates a “slipstream” behind it.This is a region of turbulent air, originating mainly from large vortices streaming from the wingtips, with small amounts of mechanical turbulence such as propeller wash thrown in for good measure. A glider pilot may choose to fly either above or below this turbulent slipstream(Refer 10.1.10).Australia tends to favour the “low-tow” position.Other countries prefer “high-tow”.
> 10.1.12.1.Low-tow With a glider in low-tow, below the slipstream, the combination tends to be less pitch sensitive and tow pilots have less difficulty in maintaining attitude for a constant air speed and a stable platform for the glider pilot to follow.
> 10.1.12.2.High-tow In high-tow, above the slipstream, the combination feels a little more pitch sensitive and tow pilots need to work harder to maintain a constant climb attitude and air speed.The difference is not large and tow pilots should have no difficulty in maintaining a stable platform whichever position the glider pilot chooses.WARNING: HIGH-TOW IS, BY DEFINITION, ABOVE THE SLIPSTREAM, NOT ABOVE THE TOW PLANE. There is one important difference between low-tow and high-tow and this becomes apparent if a glider gets out of position vertically(i.e. too high). In low-tow a glider can get very low and still not cause significant difficulty for the tow pilot in controlling his aircraft.Furthermore, out-of-trim forces tend to change at a slow enough pace that the tow pilot has ample time to release the glider if there is any fear that the limits of elevator control might be reached. In high-tow, things happen more rapidly and the tow pilot will have less time to react to a glider going too high.If a glider that is out of station in high tow(i.e. too high)is not released immediately, there is a risk of the tow plane being pulled out of control.See Section 10.3“The tow plane upset”. Tow pilots need to be trained to tow gliders in both high and low-tow and to experience a glider transitioning between the two positions.To avoid subjective judgements about high-tow and low-tow, the reference for the glider pilot establishing the towing position is always the slipstream.
Regarding the safety difference between high and low tow, I'm not sure that the relatively small vertical difference between high and low tow (about 50ft max?) is very important for tow safety. In my experience, getting unusually high from the high-tow position (eg in preparation for demonstrating a slack rope) causes no difficulty for the towplane, provided one moves high slowly (and always keep the towplane in sight). It does not affect the towplane much because the tension in the rope (glider drag is probably only about 50lbs during normal tow) probably changes very little during this maneuver, and the angle of the rope changes little too (50ft in 200ft would be about 15 degrees). The problem of kiting occurs when the glider moves high QUICKLY, causing the tension in the rope to increase rapidly. Probably a similar downward kiting effect could occur if the glider was in low tow, and dived quickly.
If the glider is climbing due to inattention, then from low tow he has further to go and also flys thru the prop wash. A little extra time and a wakeup might not fix it, but shouldn't hurt?
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 8:58:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 5:11:34 PM UTC-7, Neal Alders wrote:
> > To answer the Australia Low Tow question, as seen in the The Gliding Federation of Australia Inc Aerotowing Manual
> >
> > Go to page 44 in this PDF, As well as see PDF Page 53 for tow plane upset.
> >
> > http://doc.glidingaustralia.org/index.php?option=com_docman&view=download&alias=2275-aerotowing-manual-ops-0008&category_slug=manuals&Itemid=101
> >
> > If you cannot or do not want to open the link, here is the text.
> >
> > 10.1.12.High-tow and Low-tow An aircraft in flight generates a “slipstream” behind it.This is a region of turbulent air, originating mainly from large vortices streaming from the wingtips, with small amounts of mechanical turbulence such as propeller wash thrown in for good measure. A glider pilot may choose to fly either above or below this turbulent slipstream(Refer 10.1.10).Australia tends to favour the “low-tow” position.Other countries prefer “high-tow”.
> > 10.1.12.1.Low-tow With a glider in low-tow, below the slipstream, the combination tends to be less pitch sensitive and tow pilots have less difficulty in maintaining attitude for a constant air speed and a stable platform for the glider pilot to follow.
> > 10.1.12.2.High-tow In high-tow, above the slipstream, the combination feels a little more pitch sensitive and tow pilots need to work harder to maintain a constant climb attitude and air speed.The difference is not large and tow pilots should have no difficulty in maintaining a stable platform whichever position the glider pilot chooses.WARNING: HIGH-TOW IS, BY DEFINITION, ABOVE THE SLIPSTREAM, NOT ABOVE THE TOW PLANE. There is one important difference between low-tow and high-tow and this becomes apparent if a glider gets out of position vertically(i.e. too high). In low-tow a glider can get very low and still not cause significant difficulty for the tow pilot in controlling his aircraft.Furthermore, out-of-trim forces tend to change at a slow enough pace that the tow pilot has ample time to release the glider if there is any fear that the limits of elevator control might be reached. In high-tow, things happen more rapidly and the tow pilot will have less time to react to a glider going too high.If a glider that is out of station in high tow(i.e. too high)is not released immediately, there is a risk of the tow plane being pulled out of control.See Section 10.3“The tow plane upset”. Tow pilots need to be trained to tow gliders in both high and low-tow and to experience a glider transitioning between the two positions.To avoid subjective judgements about high-tow and low-tow, the reference for the glider pilot establishing the towing position is always the slipstream.
>
>
> Regarding the safety difference between high and low tow, I'm not sure that the relatively small vertical difference between high and low tow (about 50ft max?) is very important for tow safety. In my experience, getting unusually high from the high-tow position (eg in preparation for demonstrating a slack rope) causes no difficulty for the towplane, provided one moves high slowly (and always keep the towplane in sight). It does not affect the towplane much because the tension in the rope (glider drag is probably only about 50lbs during normal tow) probably changes very little during this maneuver, and the angle of the rope changes little too (50ft in 200ft would be about 15 degrees). The problem of kiting occurs when the glider moves high QUICKLY, causing the tension in the rope to increase rapidly. Probably a similar downward kiting effect could occur if the glider was in low tow, and dived quickly.
There is no downward kiting. Descending glider reduces or removes rope tension so glider is losing energy, not gaining it. The vertical distance between high tow and low tow( both being just out of the wake)is less than 20 feet.
When pilots go high for slack rope exercises the affect on the tug, and required back stick, is quite a bit.
UH
Tom[_21_]
June 4th 20, 01:35 AM
Preliminary report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20200511X00738&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:35:20 PM UTC-7, Tom wrote:
> Preliminary report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile..ashx?EventID=20200511X00738&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA
After examining the photos, it appears that the towplane's altitude was approximately 3 wing spans, or about 100 ft AGL. The towpilot did cut the tow rope with the internal guillotine mechanism, but by that time was in an unrecoverable attitude.
The glider pilot did go thru a pre-launch checklist that included checking that the canopy was closed and locked. I don't see how more training and drilling on checklists and procedures could have prevented this accident. The glider pilot, however, could have prevented it by immediately releasing when the canopy flew open, and could have safely landed straight ahead.
Tom
Bob Youngblood
June 4th 20, 07:58 AM
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 11:56:08 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:35:20 PM UTC-7, Tom wrote:
> > Preliminary report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20200511X00738&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA
>
> After examining the photos, it appears that the towplane's altitude was approximately 3 wing spans, or about 100 ft AGL. The towpilot did cut the tow rope with the internal guillotine mechanism, but by that time was in an unrecoverable attitude.
>
> The glider pilot did go thru a pre-launch checklist that included checking that the canopy was closed and locked. I don't see how more training and drilling on checklists and procedures could have prevented this accident. The glider pilot, however, could have prevented it by immediately releasing when the canopy flew open, and could have safely landed straight ahead.
>
> Tom
The photos and the timeline are very telling. Unless I am reading the timeline incorrectly the glider pilot was on tow for 13 seconds before the executed detachment and return to the airport. Unfortunate and preventable, obviously the canopy was not latched as stated.
>
> The glider pilot did go thru a pre-launch checklist that included checking that the canopy was closed and locked. I don't see how more training and drilling on checklists and procedures could have prevented this accident.
It's not clear from the report what sort of canopy or if checking included pushing up on the plexi to try to open it.
Definitely a sad day.
Hightime
June 4th 20, 06:17 PM
If you don’t physically push (lightly ) up on canopy after it is closed and locked you will have a inflight opening eventually. A tried and true failsafe
Just watch and see who at your club is actually doing that final crucial piece of the puzzle
Once I pushed lightly up just before launch and couldn’t believe I had forgotten to lock the canopy , it was at a different airport and things were different , or I was , I had opened the canopy more then once The final push revealed the sin
Watch for sinners and tongue lash them
Ventus_a
June 4th 20, 11:07 PM
Since we have now decided to re-invent the tow plane to put the tow hook on the CG, has anybody considered a canard design with a front or mid fuselage mounted engine?
Not quite what you have in mind but I've towed behind one of these back in the 80s and it was a pretty darn good towplane and apparently good to fly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transavia_PL-12_Airtruk
I also forgot to latch the canopy once, but it has a forward hinge, so it just rattled a bit. I latched it after releasing from tow. A side hinge canopy should ALWAYS get some fingerprints on the inside of the plexiglass. EVERY TIME! It's a lot easier (and CHEAPER!) to clean off the greasy fingerprints than to hunt down all the shards and pay for a replacement.
Waveguru
June 4th 20, 11:53 PM
> Watch for sinners and tongue lash them <
I feel irritated when people go around telling people that their way is the only way. There is more than one way to confirm that the canopy is latched. If you tongue lash me you will regret it.
Boggs
Bob Youngblood
June 4th 20, 11:56 PM
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 1:17:30 PM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
> If you don’t physically push (lightly ) up on canopy after it is closed and locked you will have a inflight opening eventually. A tried and true failsafe
> Just watch and see who at your club is actually doing that final crucial piece of the puzzle
> Once I pushed lightly up just before launch and couldn’t believe I had forgotten to lock the canopy , it was at a different airport and things were different , or I was , I had opened the canopy more then once The final push revealed the sin
> Watch for sinners and tongue lash them
It is more likely that it is what you don't do than what you do that creates the bigger problem. Having the canopy latched is different than having the canopy latched and locked. Again, if you lose sight of the tow plane simply release immediately.
Waveguru
June 5th 20, 12:00 AM
And if you really want to get someone to understand the problem and change, tongue lashing is not a good way to do it. Berating someone rarely gets them to change.
Boggs
I know (sadly first hand) it's way too easy to start launch with the canopy handle in the lock position, but the canopy not locked because it was a bit up when 'locked'.
That added the push on the plexi as belt and suspenders. That's the best launch procedure mod I've seen to deal with this usually distraction related issue.
It would be interesting to hear of something better?
150flivver
June 5th 20, 01:31 AM
On Monday, June 1, 2020 ...
>
> I hesitate to even bring this up, but my club had a ballooning accident last year involving a brand new tow pilot making his first tow and an instructor Glider pilot making his first flight the year. The Glider ballooned on takeoff and the tow pilot toggled him off, immediately............some said “too soon”? I didn’t see it and take no position on the issue, but I did see the broken Sailplane sitting in the sagebrush! Our club has no way to give dual tow pilot instruction . A new tow pilot is really making his “first tow”, with no dual instruction on towing whatsoever!
> Food for thought,
> JJ
In the States, you don't tow anyone until you've had three actual or simulated tows with a qualified towpilot aboard. Clubs with only Pawnees to tow with use some other aircraft with dual controls to do simulated tows to check out new tug pilots. From the few details you've provided, I'd say your brand new towpilot was well trained to punch off a glider that had ballooned close to the ground. I'll accept some exploration of the tow envelope above 1500' but below that, get out of position enough to make me wonder what's going on and you'll be getting my end of the rope post haste. I'm sick and tired of reading of another glider pilot explaining why he's alive and his towpilot is dead.
In a 2- place ship, the front seat pilot can check both canopies by simply shoving up on each canopy right over his head, even though the guy in the other seat said his is closed and locked...........good to double check!
Another procedure that my club requires is a radio call stating that the gliders canopy is closed and locked, spoilers are closed and locked, slack is out and Glider is ready for takeoff! In the past I have thought this radio call wasn’t necessary in a sanction contest, but if it saves someone’s life, I’ll willingly go along with it!
JJ
Tom[_21_]
June 5th 20, 12:17 PM
One of the issue that is not talked about a lot in the glider community is intentional noncompliance. In no way am I implying that this is the case in the crash we are discussing - I am trying to figure out why this scenario is reoccurring in the glider world and believe that intentional noncompliance could be a factor.
I’ve witnessed it as a professional pilot and have seen it in the glider community.
Here is an accident that really highlighted it for professionals: https://nbaa.org/wp-content/uploads/aircraft-operations/safety/NTSB-Aircraft-Accident-Report-AAR1503.pdf - if you don’t feel like reading it through basically a Gulfstream crashed on takeoff and the gust lock was engaged and control checks were not done - creating several problems. The interesting fact was: “ Further, a review of QAR data revealed that the flight crewmembers had neglected to perform complete flight control checks before 98% of their previous 175 takeoffs in the airplane, indicating that this oversight was habitual and not an anomaly.” QAR = quick access recorder, like a flight data recorder.
There is some good information here: https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/safety/professionalism-in-business-aviation/procedural-non-compliance-learning-the-markers-and-mitigating-the-risks/
The glider community is shrinking, accidents are up, insurance costs are up and a lot, if not all, of the accidents/incidents are the same causes that are always analyzed, rehashed, argued about and then blame is cast around but we can’t seem to fix it.
If there is to be a future we have to find a way to rectify these reoccurring problems. It’s a “sport” that kills more pilots than US Naval Aviation does per year, they fly jets, on and off boats, a lot more and obviously in more hazardous conditions.
We have a lot of work to do.
Regards, Tom
On Thursday, 4 June 2020 23:46:37 UTC+1, wrote:
> I also forgot to latch the canopy once, but it has a forward hinge, so it just rattled a bit. I latched it after releasing from tow. A side hinge canopy should ALWAYS get some fingerprints on the inside of the plexiglass. EVERY TIME! It's a lot easier (and CHEAPER!) to clean off the greasy fingerprints than to hunt down all the shards and pay for a replacement.
Fingerprints might not be necessary
I push up with knuckles of both hands, just next to my head
Any marks are usually out of my view and might even get wiped off by my hat
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 7:57:01 AM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Very sad to read this tragic news this morning.
>
> http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/05/bellanca-8gcbc-scout-n4116y-fatal.html?m=1
>
> Comments (anonymous) on the webpage indicate kiting may have been a significant factor.
>
> Sincere condolences to the family of the tow pilot and to the members of the club.
>
> Paul Agnew
> Jupiter, FL
This reminds me of the saying "an experienced pilot is one who no longer makes small mistakes".
> One final thought: Get rid of all side opening canopies.
>
> Yelling at people about checklists hasn't worked for anyone yet, as far as I can tell.
Once again, the "Ban the (insert selected pet peeve here)" cry is raised. Once again, over statistically insignificant occurrences that result in an accident.
Sure, upsetting a tow plane is serious, and sometimes tragic. But millions of side opening canopies have been successfully latched over decades by millions of pilots. Why is the call for banning something, with no economically feasible method of employing such a ban, so popular with some people? Are you suggesting that ALL Schempp-Hirth gliders, ALL Grobs, ALL Schweizers somehow be thrown away? Or sent back to the factory for an exorbitantly expensive retrofit (that would probably entail recertification by EASA and/or the FAA)?
I grow weary of hearing demands that "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"
One guy ****s his pants and we all have to wear diapers.
And the statement that "yelling at people about checklists isn't working for anyone" is especially fatuous. It obviously can't work in EVERY case, but saying it doesn't work at all, when it obviously does in the vast majority of instances is myopic, if not evidence of total blindness.
Hightime
June 5th 20, 03:31 PM
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 7:29:19 AM UTC-6, psb wrote:
> I have seen a couple of frightening canopy issues that did not result in anything awful, but were instructive. Here's my two cents:
>
> You CANNOT rely on the glider pilot, regardless of experience, doing the right thing when a side-opening glider canopy pops open in flight. Glider clubs do not have the resources to train for this. So either we create the resources to train or we stop launching with the canopy unlatched.
>
> Our club does have a wonderful simulator setup. I thought of hooking up a couple of squirrel cage fans or air compressor hoses and an air horn to simulate a canopy opening in flight. The noise needs to be significant and the airflow needs to induce tears. Still thinking about it.
>
> The other approach is to commit to never, ever launching with the canopy open again. A few weeks ago instituted a mandatory radio call prior to take-off: "Sailplane XYZ canopy locked, air brakes in, ready for takeoff." Wing runners are trained to look for positive canopy check. Years before I started with the Navy, they instituted mandatory "three down and locked" call on final. That apparently was enough of a trigger to eliminate gear up landings. Maybe we can do the same with canopies.
>
> One final thought: Get rid of all side opening canopies.
>
> Yelling at people about checklists hasn't worked for anyone yet, as far as I can tell.
Yelling No , but pilots that march to their own drum must be talked to with authority. In aviation there is a thing called airman-ship . One must be open to constructive criticism and put their ego aside. If a pilot gets angry or refuses to listen they should be asked not to return, or their membership revoked by vote.
A safe launch requires a plethera of things to be right in the glider.
For my reptile brain, actually touching and moving works better than looking and saying. But I can see how different pilots have different best ways of dealing with these.
I've seen an attentive ground person check for a pilot that's not 'with it', provide extra time, limit distractions, and pause the launch if something seems out of place. For a club ship, physically verifying the canopy is locked sometimes makes sense if it can be done without breaking the pilot's train of thought. Past that, I'm not sure.
Training a new pilot probably needs a different story for the ideal ground guy, but if ground starts trying to enforce some specific get ready procedure, it seems a close call if he's helping or adding to the distractions and making things worse?
PS: I like my side opening canopy. But the last podcast with Dave talking about bailout issues are food for thought.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 5th 20, 05:38 PM
On Fri, 05 Jun 2020 07:38:38 -0700, stu857xx wrote:
> Training a new pilot probably needs a different story for the ideal
> ground guy, but if ground starts trying to enforce some specific get
> ready procedure, it seems a close call if he's helping or adding to the
> distractions and making things worse?
>
IME this is a job for the instructor: he needs to teach "close, lock and
check that the canopy is locked" from his victim's first flight. If a
student does this check from their first flight (yes, even a trial
flight!), it will get engrained as part of their pre-flight routine.
What the check is depends on the glider. In an ASK-21 I apply light
pressure to the canopy just behind my head, in a side-opening G103,
Puchacz or Junior I apply upward pressure to the lock body (NOT the
locking lever!) and in my Libelle I twist the lock into place (visual and
feel as the expanding rod goes into the bearing at each end, then flip
the vent lever lever up and down to check that the bottom of the canopy
center rises up and then pulls down onto its seal: soft 'D' section draft
excluder round the front coaming and thick foam door seal strip over the
wing.
Finally, in a T.21 Sedburgh there is no canopy check because its an open
cockpit.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Tango Eight
June 5th 20, 07:52 PM
Just last year, while acting as ground crew for a winch launch, I watched the PIC announce on the radio "canopy locked, spoilers locked", while the spoilers were quite clearly not locked and not fully closed. We didn't launch him until the defect was corrected, but the point is: the radio call can be fake news. All you know for sure is that it clutters the frequency.
Your procedures must be based on **actions**. It isn't wring to recite the checklist, but you need to be performing the action of checking that e.g. the spoilers are locked and the canopy is locked.
T8
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 11:56:39 AM UTC-7, psb wrote:
> First of all, I wasn't actually serious about banning side opening canopies. I now sincerely regret that I wrote it down and am down and will never, ever discuss it again. It's just a possibility that came up so I mentioned it. I tend to think out loud. Please forgive me.
>
> I will stand by my belief that having multiple people involved in the critical glider checklist items, particularly if it is of little or no inconvenience to the pilots involved. People forget stuff, get rusty, distracted, whatever, and make mistakes. It happens and it kills people.
The problem is that the life of the tow pilot depends upon another person (the glider pilot) performing pre-flight procedures properly and executing the takeoff properly. And to make the situation worse, the tow pilot may have never met the glider pilot who has his/her life in their hands.
From a safety engineering standpoint, there is basically no backup to the glider pilot improperly following procedures or incompetently flying the glider. This is a classic single point of failure situation. This is why I am advocating KGARS, which DOES provide a parallel backup to an incompetent glider pilot.
Tom
George Haeh
June 5th 20, 11:44 PM
The canopy hinge(s) can be on the front, rear and side. The consequences of an mis- or un- latched canopy are different in each case:
Front: a bit more noise. You may not notice until landing. Don't ask how I know.
Rear: Instantly gone. Pilot unhooks and lands.
Side: Instant distraction for pilot, especially if pilot grabs canopy "in time". Some very rare pilots know which rudder pedal to push to keep canopy down if it comes loose. An L-33 canopy can be mis-latched if it's some 2mm high.
Glider curriculums are silent on handling canopies coming loose.
It feels good to chant "Do the checklist", but people make mistakes and need to be trained in handling screw ups.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 6th 20, 01:09 AM
On Fri, 05 Jun 2020 15:44:27 -0700, George Haeh wrote:
> It feels good to chant "Do the checklist", but people make mistakes and
> need to be trained in handling screw ups.
>
.... which is why it would be a good idea for all instructors to insist on
the student or trial flighter closing the canopy, locking it and checking
it is locked on ALL flights including their first ever glider flight.
Exactly like I was taught.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
I have launched many hundreds if not thousands of gliders ranging from students with instructors to the best soaring pilots in the country. I have seen strict adherence to the check list, giving lip service to the check list and complete disregard for the check list. I have been 'pushed back'' by someone from a major gliding club who insisted on launching their club glider only to have to stop him from lifting the wing and giving the take off signal to the tow plane because the tail dolly was still installed. Some guys who come down from the north in the beginning of the season need to spend some time remembering the important points of launch. This happened with this club more than once.
I was a volunteer, I thought I knew what I was doing as does everyone who launches a glider I'm sure. I've seen people try to hook up a glider with the wrong ring and not appear to have a clue as to what was wrong. Some have not been familiar with some of the less common belly hooks only to have it come loose the instant the tow plane moves. I've seen pilots who insist that ONLY their wife (the glider widow) perform the hook up. Good idea in many of these cases. (she could have given lessons to many) I've seen people launch gliders while there were gliders close on downwind, on base and even a few on final. Yes, it is sometimes hard to see a white glider against the background of white cumulus but taking a few extra seconds to really look might help avoid a catastrophe. There should be at least three sets of eyes checking on take off. The tow pilot and the glider pilot might not have the best vantage point. The point is that there are many instances in which disaster is lurking right around the corner.
It all boils down to training and adherence to procedures and check lists and even with that, mistakes will be made. It requires commercial and club managers, club Presidents and commercial operation Vice Presidents to take ownership of their responsibility and insure that things be done properly and as safely as the human element will allow. This means hands on training, just because the guy or gal on the line has some glider flying experience is not good enough.
Nothing can totally eliminate the dangerous aspects of flying tow. I always thought that I would have to keep an eye on the old duffers and students but apparently as is witnessed by the USAFA accident, the Front Royal accident and the most recent fatality, instructors too enter into the equation. In reality, every launch brings the tow pilot that much closer to the moment of truth.
It will happen again in the next year or two, it's only a matter of time quite unfortunately.
Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
Larry Ruggiero
June 6th 20, 03:33 PM
“Do you take off and then immediately push down through the prop wash to the low tow position ? 300 AGL is a most critical time due to low level turbulence and height , is this the time to be pushing through propwash to low tow ?“
No, the glider, having lifted off first, stays level until the tow plane climbs out above the glider. Easy.
Larry Ruggiero
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
June 12th 20, 04:06 PM
Last Tuesday evening Cindy Brickner hosted a SSA Webinar " Aero towing",
it was very well put together and presented with a powerpoint presentation and a review of the accident that started this thread.
Cindy is a good public speaker and its easy to listen to.
I think it should be required watching for for all glider pilots IMHO every spring.
It clearly shows how in a very short 2-3 seconds the situation can get out of control and the tow pilot gets killed.
It should be up on the SSA webpage in a few days under Webinars.
Thank you Cindy for your time and effort into producing this Webinar.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T
CindyB[_2_]
June 20th 20, 11:01 AM
Thank you Nick, for mentioning. Webinar is up. Also the compiled Q&A with more illustrations as a supplement, also downloadable. Couple pics of Pawnees with hopper release handles. Will do another for tug pilots, maybe in late july.
Cindyb
SSA Webinar Committee
On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 6:01:58 AM UTC-4, CindyB wrote:
> Thank you Nick, for mentioning. Webinar is up. Also the compiled Q&A with more illustrations as a supplement, also downloadable. Couple pics of Pawnees with hopper release handles. Will do another for tug pilots, maybe in late july.
>
> Cindyb
> SSA Webinar Committee
Found this write-up issued by the British Gliding Association (BGA). Very well put together and informative. Apparently, they have the same issue than we have on this side of the pond.
https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/05/Formatted-Final-online.pdf
Uli
'AS'
Delta8
July 16th 20, 02:24 AM
Why not enlist the person hooking up the tow rope to do a check as well ?
Distraction from a checklist isn't hard to understand so adding a second person in the mix might avert disaster. While hooking up we usually do a test release a quick look at the canopy or giving it a tug would not add much time before walking to pickup the wing after the pilot gives the thumbs up .
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