Rental Cancellation Policies

[Greg Esres]

I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.

Our school doesn't charge people for not showing up, much less for
cancelling very close to the proposed flight time. You can even
schedule a plane for a week, then cancel at the last minute. Or you
can schedule a 5 hour block and only use 1 hour of it.

Can you institute policies that you must use some percentage of your
scheduled time or face some charge for unused time? Does a
non-refundable deposit make sense for extended schedule blocks? Can
you really charge some fee to those who don't show up or cancel too
late without alienating your customers?

Appreciate any thoughts on what works and seems fair to all concerned.

[C J Campbell]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
> schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
> that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.

Generally, we do not charge people for flights cancelled because of weather
or maintenance, nor do we charge them for canceling or missing a flight
once. Do it again, though, and you pay for both the instructor and the
airplane. OTOH, if an instructor no-shows, he gives you the next lesson
free. If he does it again, he is likely to be fired.

The problem is, we don't want people who may be sick or otherwise unprepared
to fly to feel like they are being forced into flying anyway.

[Thomas Borchert]

Greg,

> Appreciate any thoughts on what works and seems fair to all concerned.
>

One of the key issues is weather cancellations, of course. How much can
you as an FBO pressure pilots without making the whole thing unsafe.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[wondernut]

I cancelled a flight this morning that I had
planned for a week. Was to be with my first passenger as a new private
pilot.
TAFs looked good last night, then this morning everything went bad with low
ceilings and high winds
forecasted for when we would have returned. So I cancelled my 5 hour block.

We book planes online nice and anonymously, with no human intervention.
In an ideal world I could get the phone number and just call the guy after
me and let him know.
But that would assume that *flying clubs* are really clubs. Do you think we
should try to
make them more like car rental agencies?






and"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
> schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
> that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.
>
> Our school doesn't charge people for not showing up, much less for
> cancelling very close to the proposed flight time. You can even
> schedule a plane for a week, then cancel at the last minute. Or you
> can schedule a 5 hour block and only use 1 hour of it.
>
> Can you institute policies that you must use some percentage of your
> scheduled time or face some charge for unused time? Does a
> non-refundable deposit make sense for extended schedule blocks? Can
> you really charge some fee to those who don't show up or cancel too
> late without alienating your customers?
>
> Appreciate any thoughts on what works and seems fair to all concerned.

[Greg Esres]

<<OTOH, if an instructor no-shows, he gives you the next lesson free.
If he does it again, he is likely to be fired.>>

Man, you guys are tough. But it does show a serious commitment to the
student. We have instructors who are habitually late or no shows. No
one does anything about it. It infuriates me to see a student hanging
around the lobby for hours waiting for his instructor.

<<The problem is, we don't want people who may be sick or otherwise
unprepared to fly to feel like they are being forced into flying
anyway.>>

Yep, that is a concern. I'm trying to figure out a way to respect
usage of the resources (the airplane and instructor), yet still allow
them to make the safe decision. The key may be to flag the abusers.

[Greg Esres]

<<One of the key issues is weather cancellations, of course. How much
can you as an FBO pressure pilots without making the whole thing
unsafe.>>

Yes, that's one area in which I was hoping for some suggestions. You
certainly don't want to compel someone to fly in conditions outside
their ability. Possibly setting some weather minimums that will allow
cancellation without penalty. Crosswind, vis, ceiling, etc, depending
on the nature of the flight.

One real problem is VFR pilots that reserve an airplane for a week or
weekend, then cancel because of low ceilings, or other mild weather
that would not be a problem for a more experienced pilot.

[Greg Esres]

<<Do you think we should try to make them more like car rental
agencies?>>

Maybe.

My thought is that an airplane is a resource to the FBO, and they
should try to achieve the highest utilization that they can. Renters
who reserve but don't use the aircraft are using the resource without
paying for it, which produces higher costs for everyone else.

There may be no safe solution to the problem; obviously, you could not
take your trip, so it's not your fault.

Maybe only rent to instrument-rated pilots? Maybe not rent out for
large blocks that increase the likelihood of weather cancellations?
Maybe charge a small penalty anyway to make someone *think* before
they reserve?

Some people cancel only when there's good reason to do so, but others
reserve on a whim just in case they might want to fly.

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:27:31 GMT, Greg Esres >
wrote:

>Our school doesn't charge people for not showing up, much less for
>cancelling very close to the proposed flight time. You can even
>schedule a plane for a week, then cancel at the last minute. Or you
>can schedule a 5 hour block and only use 1 hour of it.

That's true where I rent as well. I don't know about the 5-hour block,
however, and you certainly can't rent a plane for several days, unless
possibly in the fall or spring. But there are no penalties for mucking
about with the typical one, two, or three hour rentals.

I generally have a pretty good excuse, however, or else I am full of
apologies.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
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[G. Sylvester]

How does your FBO handle pilots who booked a plane a week earlier, show
up to the airport with passengers to find a squawk listed 2 weeks
earlier makes the plane unairworthy for your mission. I'm referring
to out of date GPS databases, no panel lighting for night flights, etc.
Can the pilot charge the owner/FBO for their time? Sure we can
boycott their plane but I just wasted about 3 hours of
my time scheduling the plane, checking weather, doing the flight
plan, filing flight plan, driving to the airport, walking out to
the plane, taking the cover off, doing part of the preflight
just to put the cover back on and drive home with disappointed
passengers. Just happened and I ****ed away my Saturday on
a very nice day. will I get anything for it? No. But
I'll sure spread the word around the club.

Gerald Sylvester



Greg Esres wrote:
> I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
> schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
> that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.
>
> Our school doesn't charge people for not showing up, much less for
> cancelling very close to the proposed flight time. You can even
> schedule a plane for a week, then cancel at the last minute. Or you
> can schedule a 5 hour block and only use 1 hour of it.
>
> Can you institute policies that you must use some percentage of your
> scheduled time or face some charge for unused time? Does a
> non-refundable deposit make sense for extended schedule blocks? Can
> you really charge some fee to those who don't show up or cancel too
> late without alienating your customers?
>
> Appreciate any thoughts on what works and seems fair to all concerned.

[Scott Skylane]

G. Sylvester wrote:
> How does your FBO handle pilots who booked a plane a week earlier, show
> up to the airport with passengers to find a squawk listed 2 weeks
> earlier makes the plane unairworthy for your mission. I'm referring
> to out of date GPS databases, no panel lighting for night flights, etc.
> Can the pilot charge the owner/FBO for their time? Sure we can
> boycott their plane but I just wasted about 3 hours of
> my time scheduling the plane, checking weather, doing the flight
> plan, filing flight plan, driving to the airport, walking out to
> the plane, taking the cover off, doing part of the preflight
> just to put the cover back on and drive home with disappointed
> passengers. Just happened and I ****ed away my Saturday on
> a very nice day. will I get anything for it? No. But
> I'll sure spread the word around the club.

What was the squawk this time?

[Peter Duniho]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> One real problem is VFR pilots that reserve an airplane for a week or
> weekend, then cancel because of low ceilings, or other mild weather
> that would not be a problem for a more experienced pilot.

IMHO, that depends on what you mean by "mild weather". Different places
will set their standards differently, of course. But generally, I think the
pilot should be given the benefit of the doubt, and the rental outfit should
not worry too much that maybe there was another pilot who would have taken
the plane in those conditions.

The chances of such rules being abused are pretty minimal, IMHO. I'm sure
that once in awhile, someone will take unfair advantage of them. But the
goal should not be 100% honest compliance; it's not practical to attempt to
judge that. The downside of encouraging pilots to fly in weather they
aren't capable of handling far outweighs the minimal risk of pilots getting
off scot free when they really could have handled the conditions.

The FBO or club shouldn't be silly, of course. A pilot who says they can't
fly because the ceilings are down to 5000' and the visibility is only 10
miles doesn't have a legitimate claim. But if a pilot says they aren't
comfortable with a 2000' ceiling or 5 miles visibility (for
example...conditions that many experienced pilots would be fine with, but
which could be challenging or worrisome to a new pilot), that ought to be
just fine.

IMHO, it also depends on the situation. I'm assuming that the rules CJ
writes about are for planned flight lessons only. Especially when an
instructor is involved, it seems like weather should be less of a
consideration, at least when the instructor is comfortable flying in that
weather. When the pilot will be acting PIC, I think they ought to be given
more slack, and IMHO a single "get out of jail free" card isn't sufficient.
The "one free" should apply only for an egregious violation of the weather
cancellation policy.

I have had limited experience with cancellation policies; most of my flight
time is in my own airplane. But for the two places where I rented
regularly, I was never penalized for cancelling. I didn't cancel often, but
I'm sure I cancelled at least a half dozen times or so for weather over the
years, and I can remember at least one time I cancelled for health reasons
(sinus congestion). I was never penalized for any of those times, nor do I
think it would have been reasonable for me to have been.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> My thought is that an airplane is a resource to the FBO, and they
> should try to achieve the highest utilization that they can. Renters
> who reserve but don't use the aircraft are using the resource without
> paying for it, which produces higher costs for everyone else.

This is related to the "what happens when the plane breaks down" thread.
You might want to revisit that to see the varying opinions.

My opinion, of course (that is, if you read the other thread), is that the
whole point for renting is so that you don't have to deal with those issues.
That includes weather issues. There is some risk involved in owning an
airplane, with respect to maintenance, and with respect to not being able to
fly because of weather. One rents so as to not have to take those risks.
Someone else does, and spreads the cost of that risk across all of their
clients, in the form of an hourly rate for the airplane.

However, the FBO shouldn't have to tolerate people cancelling for no good
reason. A "one free" policy such as CJ describes would be more appropriate
for those situations. I just think the FBO or club needs to be careful to
only apply that sort of policy to situations that are clearly due only to
the pilot flaking out.

> [...]
> Some people cancel only when there's good reason to do so, but others
> reserve on a whim just in case they might want to fly.

IMHO, it's more important to not alienate those who cancel for a good reason
than it is to worry too much about those who cancel just because they had
reserved on a whim and then decided not to fly. There can't be that many of
the latter, but there are plenty of the former. In addition, those who
"reserve on a whim" won't take long to identify. If they are truly a
problem, even a half dozen foundless cancellations in a month wouldn't break
the bank at the FBO, but would certainly be enough to drop the guy as a
customer.

Pete

[Slick]

At my local club there is no charge for not showing up, unless you do it
repeatedly and **** off the owner of the airport. We have 20 150/152's and
when the weather is flyable most of them are always gone. If you don't show
up, your plane will most likely be flying within 15 minutes of your
appointment. It's such a friendly place here, there's always a few people in
the lobby just talking and a constant exchange of pilots checking in and
out. Thanks to online scheduling everything is a cinch.
"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
> schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
> that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.
>
> Our school doesn't charge people for not showing up, much less for
> cancelling very close to the proposed flight time. You can even
> schedule a plane for a week, then cancel at the last minute. Or you
> can schedule a 5 hour block and only use 1 hour of it.
>
> Can you institute policies that you must use some percentage of your
> scheduled time or face some charge for unused time? Does a
> non-refundable deposit make sense for extended schedule blocks? Can
> you really charge some fee to those who don't show up or cancel too
> late without alienating your customers?
>
> Appreciate any thoughts on what works and seems fair to all concerned.



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[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 21:08:44 GMT, Greg Esres >
wrote:

> Possibly setting some weather minimums that will allow
>cancellation without penalty. Crosswind, vis, ceiling, etc, depending
>on the nature of the flight.

What about personal minimums? I once canceled a flight after a
sleepless night.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On the whole, I've gone to the airport and found that the airplane was
canceled more often than I have canceled the airplane.

Earlier on, my instructor said to me: If you learn nothing else from
this process, you will learn patience.

The planes are old. I am old. Naturally we have our down days.

Yesterday I went to the airport and found that Four One Victor idled
at 1000 rpm. I figured that was a complication I didn't need after a
three-month layoff, so I elected not to fly. I reckon that was the
plane's doing, not mine.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Grumman-581]

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
> IMHO, it's more important to not alienate those who cancel for a good
reason
> than it is to worry too much about those who cancel just because they had
> reserved on a whim and then decided not to fly. There can't be that many
of
> the latter, but there are plenty of the former. In addition, those who
> "reserve on a whim" won't take long to identify. If they are truly a
> problem, even a half dozen foundless cancellations in a month wouldn't
break
> the bank at the FBO, but would certainly be enough to drop the guy as a
> customer.

In many cases, it's not the FBO that owns the aircraft... I had made the
mistake of putting my aircraft on leaseback after I purchased it... It got
to the point where if I wanted to be able to take my own plane out for a
weekend trip, I had to reserve a month in advance (i.e. past where the
written log was allowing others to reserve)... Many times I would find
someone who had reserved for a couple of hours on the weekend having
cancelled and if it hadn't been for him, I would have been able to take it
out that weekend... Of course there was also the issue of students (and
instructors) damaging the plastics on the interior, stripping the gears on
the radios by turning them past their stops, and various other things, so I
took it off leaseback about 5 years ago and have been VERY happy with
knowing that the plane is always available...

[Michael]

I think there is no way to institute a policy at all. It will either
be so toothless as to make it trivial for an abuser to circumvent, or
it will inevitably catch people cancelling for legitimate reasons.
Here are a few:

Crosswinds too much for the individual (I actually flew with a private
pilot who had NEVER experienced more than 5 kts of crosswind component)
and, in the general case, weather that is too much for that individual
pilot but would be no big deal for a more capable pilot.

Weather crappy at destination. Many people rent airplanes to go
places. It might be just fine where you are, but 200 miles away where
the renter is going the weather is (or is forecast to be) beyond his
capabilities.

Personal illness, lack of sleep, etc. Impossible to disprove.

Then you have another problem. If you have policies that charge the
pilot for a cancellation, there will be an expectation of compensation
if the airplane is not ready and airworthy. In general, unless you are
prepared to pay cancellation fees if the plane isn't ready, don't
expect to collect any if the pilot isn't ready.

The real solution is that when you identify someone who abuses the
system, don't rent to him anymore. It's really that simple.

Michael

[Peter R.]

Greg wrote:

> I'm curious to know what sort of cancellation policies that flight
> schools and rental outfits have in place to make it highly probably
> that those who schedule airplanes will actually fly them.

The school where I trained doesn't do anything, most likely for all the
good reasons mentioned in this thread.

What I suggested to them was to have their web-based scheduling system,
which was written by a student of theirs, include a feature that allows
a "backup" renter to schedule an aircraft and then emails this person
if the first renter cancels.

Seems easy to do, but I guess they are getting what they payed for this
system.

--
Peter

[Glen Partridge]

The club I belong to (Edmonton Flying Club) has an automated reservation
system. You can cancel an aircraft booking up to 24 hours before the
rental, no questions asked. After that period, you get charged for 1 hour
if you don't show up or call in to cancel with the dispatcher. They do not
question judgements based on weather or illness. You are, after all, the
PIC. In fact, the last time I was going to go flying I got to the club and
then decided not to go up, because I had a nervous passenger, and it was a
gusty day with constant light to moderate turbulence reported (strong upper
winds, too). They accepted my decision with no problem, and even helped me
out by soliciting pireps from others who were aloft.

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Greg Esres" > wrote in message
> ...
>> [...]
>> My thought is that an airplane is a resource to the FBO, and they
>> should try to achieve the highest utilization that they can. Renters
>> who reserve but don't use the aircraft are using the resource without
>> paying for it, which produces higher costs for everyone else.
>
> This is related to the "what happens when the plane breaks down" thread.
> You might want to revisit that to see the varying opinions.
>
> My opinion, of course (that is, if you read the other thread), is that the
> whole point for renting is so that you don't have to deal with those
> issues. That includes weather issues. There is some risk involved in
> owning an airplane, with respect to maintenance, and with respect to not
> being able to fly because of weather. One rents so as to not have to take
> those risks. Someone else does, and spreads the cost of that risk across
> all of their clients, in the form of an hourly rate for the airplane.
>
> However, the FBO shouldn't have to tolerate people cancelling for no good
> reason. A "one free" policy such as CJ describes would be more
> appropriate for those situations. I just think the FBO or club needs to
> be careful to only apply that sort of policy to situations that are
> clearly due only to the pilot flaking out.
>
>> [...]
>> Some people cancel only when there's good reason to do so, but others
>> reserve on a whim just in case they might want to fly.
>
> IMHO, it's more important to not alienate those who cancel for a good
> reason than it is to worry too much about those who cancel just because
> they had reserved on a whim and then decided not to fly. There can't be
> that many of the latter, but there are plenty of the former. In addition,
> those who "reserve on a whim" won't take long to identify. If they are
> truly a problem, even a half dozen foundless cancellations in a month
> wouldn't break the bank at the FBO, but would certainly be enough to drop
> the guy as a customer.
>
> Pete
>