View Full Version : Private airport or small field for landout?
Charles Ethridge
May 25th 20, 10:35 PM
Hi all.
I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
Ben
There are stories of not being welcome at a private strip, but you'll be safer by far. Keep in mind that countless private strips are charted but have not been landable for decades. No substitute for local knowledge. Or overflying and snooping.
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
It might be useful to call or visit the airports you are considering.
Most airport owners are very welcoming.
You may also find that some are "Cessna" airports that are not wide enough for a glider. Others may be locked and not attended.
All that said, it is easier to apologize for landing on an airport than explain to the insurance adjuster why you broke your glider landing in a field next to a usable airport.
An airport tour on a non soarable day would be a useful exercise.
Good luck
UH
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
Go for the airports!
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 7:16:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
> >
> > If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
> >
> > Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
> >
> > Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
> >
> > Ben
>
> It might be useful to call or visit the airports you are considering.
> Most airport owners are very welcoming.
> You may also find that some are "Cessna" airports that are not wide enough for a glider. Others may be locked and not attended.
> All that said, it is easier to apologize for landing on an airport than explain to the insurance adjuster why you broke your glider landing in a field next to a usable airport.
> An airport tour on a non soarable day would be a useful exercise.
> Good luck
> UH
Yeah, Cessna (or Piper Cub) airstrips, watch out for them. If they only mow the middle 30-40 feet then a glider wingtip is likely to catch in the tall grass - bad! Research the facts in advance, and expect conditions (e.g., mowing) to change over time. If you have to land in an airstrip that looks iffy, plan the landing carefully. E.g., if narrowly mowed, land off-center and keep one wingtip high.
All landouts (other than at big wide public airports) are somewhat risky. Ag fields have their own risks, such as unseen rocks or ditches. But some are pretty clearly low risk: if it's a freshly mowed hay field with uniform pattern and color, for example.
Ideally, local XC glider pilots share the local knowledge about the available fields. To some extent this knowledge makes it into the downloadable waypoint files that you can get on the web, but don't count on that.
MNLou
May 26th 20, 01:01 AM
Having done both in my PW-5, I'd take the private airstrip every time.
The comments on runway width,especially in corn country, are valid.
However, you can probably stick a PW-5 in at about any private strip.
I use Google Earth to confirm private strips in my database whenever possible.
Lou
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 7:17:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
> >
> > If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
> >
> > Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
> >
> > Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
> >
> > Ben
>
> Go for the airports!
Please do some thorough recon before blindly sticking your glider into an unknown field! For years, we had a field south of our home base here in SC which was on the sectional, however, it was used to grow hay! Sometime during the summer, these large round bails would appear, making the field obviously unlandable but before that, the even vegetation made it look very inviting. The field was purchased by an aviation buff and is now safe to land on again at any time.
Uli
'AS'
jfitch
May 26th 20, 02:18 AM
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
One advantage of an airstrip is that it is less likely to have power lines on approach. An ag field may or may not, they are very difficult to see until too late.
Roy B.
May 26th 20, 02:19 AM
Ben:
While generally a private airstrip is better than a soft farm field, a good rule is to never set up a final glide to a private airfield that you have not seen recently - even if just from the air. There may be issues with width (especially in corn country), hay bales, mowing equipment, overgrowth, etc and sometimes it has simply vanished or been planted over. I've never been unwelcomed by a private airstrip owner but I have had some last minute surprises that would have been better to avoid.
ROY
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 26th 20, 02:51 AM
On Mon, 25 May 2020 17:01:29 -0700, MNLou wrote:
> I use Google Earth to confirm private strips in my database whenever
> possible.
>
I do exactly the same - its an easy and quick way to look over fields you
have the lat/lon for and decide whether its worth going to look at the
field.
You can zoom right in too, making it easy to use the ruler tool to
measure runway lengths and widths to +/- 3ft and to see what type of
surface the field has. Some Microlite strips are even narrower than light
aircraft strips.
Other suggestions:
- avoid landing in fields containing animals, both to avoid annoying
the farmer and because even a sheep or goat bolting across in front of
a landing glider could spoil your day
- a field with three straight edges and one meandering, possibly lush
edge probably slopes toward the meandering edge (could be a stream)
and you don't want to be landing along or toward the stream if there's
much slope on the field
- if a field changes colour along a straight line without an visible
fence line, beware: electric fence, which can take your head off if
you hit it.
- if a power line crosses a field you're more likely to see tufts of
grass round the poles than to line itself
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
You definitely want to check the photo date in Google Earth to determine whether the image is even remotely current. The last photo of Moriarty was taken March 26, 2016.
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
May 26th 20, 04:42 AM
Roy B. wrote on 5/25/2020 6:19 PM:
> Ben:
> While generally a private airstrip is better than a soft farm field, a good rule is to never set up a final glide to a private airfield that you have not seen recently - even if just from the air. There may be issues with width (especially in corn country), hay bales, mowing equipment, overgrowth, etc and sometimes it has simply vanished or been planted over. I've never been unwelcomed by a private airstrip owner but I have had some last minute surprises that would have been better to avoid.
> ROY
And then there was a local paved private strip that had about 40 cars parked on it
one nice spring day. A wedding, I assume, but not an airport again until the party
was over.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
John Cochrane[_3_]
May 26th 20, 04:52 AM
This is an interesting post. Where are you flying from that you seem to be totally alone? I've flown from many operations, all with an active cross country community. In any such operation, there is a vast amount of local experience with the nearby private airports. Most of the laudable ones will have been landed at. The unfriendly farmers will be known.
If you're trying to fly XC all alone in a PW5, I might suggest first of all moving to an operation where there is a good base of active cross country pilots. They will help you out with far more than just knowing which airports and fields are good to land at. If you are already at an active operation, for heaven's sake go talk to the experienced pilots and get the local briefing!
John Cochrane BB
Charles Ethridge
May 26th 20, 12:19 PM
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 11:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> This is an interesting post. Where are you flying from that you seem to be totally alone? I've flown from many operations, all with an active cross country community. In any such operation, there is a vast amount of local experience with the nearby private airports. Most of the laudable ones will have been landed at. The unfriendly farmers will be known.
>
> If you're trying to fly XC all alone in a PW5, I might suggest first of all moving to an operation where there is a good base of active cross country pilots. They will help you out with far more than just knowing which airports and fields are good to land at. If you are already at an active operation, for heaven's sake go talk to the experienced pilots and get the local briefing!
>
> John Cochrane BB
Tbanks.
I learned to fly gliders in Miami FL, where the is effectively no cross country due to the terrain (or lack of it :-)). After I got good enough to stay up thermaling for several hours at a time, I decided it was time to move the glider to a place where I could learn to fly cross country, so I moved it to Atlanta. Unfortunately, the coronavirus hit and all the clubs are effectively closed to me while I'm sheltering-in-place.
From reading soaring books and articles such as Kai Gersten's "Off-Airport Landings", I always just assumed that you could never RELY on local knowledge and that there is a good probability that one day you will need to simply pick a field or private airport, especially on long cross countries, or cross countries where bad weather has caused you to deviate far from the task line.
Ben
Bruce C
May 26th 20, 12:53 PM
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
Ben
I am a former Miami boy as well. You may wish to check with a couple operations that are within a reasonable driving distance, assuming you have a trailer. Chilhowee in Benton TN is not too far from Atlanta. Sarah and Jason Arnold run the place and have a PW-5 that is available for rent.They are extremely knowledgeable. Bermuda High in South Carolina comes to mind check with Franklin Burbank, again very knowledgeable and helpful. Carolina Soaring Association in Spartanburg is a club with a strong cross country focus.
A long weekend spent at one of these operations may be what you need to kick off your first cross country efforts.
Bruce
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 26th 20, 12:56 PM
On Mon, 25 May 2020 20:39:35 -0700, markmocho53 wrote:
> You definitely want to check the photo date in Google Earth to determine
> whether the image is even remotely current. The last photo of Moriarty
> was taken March 26, 2016.
Agreed - and sometimes there's no obvious reason why the dates of nearby
places differ as much as they do, though sometimes obvious colour changes
make it clear that they were covered during different flights. This can
be quite obvious with your viewpoint at 5000-10000m (15,000 - 30,000 ft)
above ground level.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Justin Craig[_3_]
May 26th 20, 01:30 PM
You should not be relying on any prior knowledge of the strip.
Arrange to do some filed landing practice with an instructor in a motor
glider. Fly around, look at fields, learn what to look for and what to
avoid.
Practice some engine idol approaches and then power and fly away.
When yo start your xc career you can expect to land out. You should be
always looking at the general area you are over, when lower more of your
workload capacity will be diverted to this.
When you need to land, pick a field with sufficient time to overfly and
plan
your circuit. Once committed ... you are committed and need to land. Don't
get temped by weal lift in the circuit.
Flying in the UK with our lack of weather, we get pretty adept to field
landings!
Have fun, stay safe.
Just curious - would you really have to explain your decision-making to an insurance adjuster? Could they deny a claim due to a bad choice? I'd think that, as long as you weren't breaking any rules, they'd have to pay the claim.
Roy B.
May 26th 20, 01:40 PM
Just curious - would you really have to explain your decision-making to an insurance adjuster? Could they deny a claim due to a bad choice?
The answer is "No" - we buy insurance in part because we all make mistakes. Although sometimes they hold it against you at renewal time.
ROY
BobW
May 26th 20, 02:31 PM
On 5/26/2020 5:19 AM, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 11:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
>> This is an interesting post. Where are you flying from that you seem to
>> be totally alone? I've flown from many operations, all with an active
>> cross country community. In any such operation, there is a vast amount of
>> local experience with the nearby private airports. Most of the laudable
>> ones will have been landed at. The unfriendly farmers will be known.
>>
>> If you're trying to fly XC all alone in a PW5, I might suggest first of
>> all moving to an operation where there is a good base of active cross
>> country pilots. They will help you out with far more than just knowing
>> which airports and fields are good to land at. If you are already at an
>> active operation, for heaven's sake go talk to the experienced pilots and
>> get the local briefing!
>>
>> John Cochrane BB
>
> Tbanks.
>
> I learned to fly gliders in Miami FL, where the is effectively no cross
> country due to the terrain (or lack of it :-)). After I got good enough to
> stay up thermaling for several hours at a time, I decided it was time to
> move the glider to a place where I could learn to fly cross country, so I
> moved it to Atlanta. Unfortunately, the coronavirus hit and all the clubs
> are effectively closed to me while I'm sheltering-in-place.
>
> From reading soaring books and articles such as Kai Gersten's "Off-Airport
> Landings", I always just assumed that you could never RELY on local
> knowledge and that there is a good probability that one day you will need
> to simply pick a field or private airport, especially on long cross
> countries, or cross countries where bad weather has caused you to deviate
> far from the task line.
>
> Ben
Much experience-based sensible advice in this thread already, but - since no
one has yet mentioned "the obvious" - keep in mind that no matter how thorough
one's preparation for XC and off-field landings, Murphy is a powerful guy,
capable of throwing a wrench in the works at any time.
Point being Joe XC Glider Pilot should ALWAYS be prepared to assess, select
and land on a field he's had no chance to pre-review from the ground. (I
imagine you are, but "stuff can happen" on any XC flight and "airfield to
airfield preparation" may not always be in your cards.
Have fun!
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 8:33:49 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Just curious - would you really have to explain your decision-making to an insurance adjuster? Could they deny a claim due to a bad choice? I'd think that, as long as you weren't breaking any rules, they'd have to pay the claim.
Feel free to substitute partner, wife, or accident investigator. The point is the same.
UH
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
No substitute for setting foot on any possible landing area (open fields or private airports) first prior to considering it safe other than PUBLISHED PUBLIC airports...period
Tango Eight
May 26th 20, 04:20 PM
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 10:43:27 AM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
> >
> > If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
> >
> > Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
> >
> > Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
> >
> > Ben
>
> No substitute for setting foot on any possible landing area (open fields or private airports) first prior to considering it safe other than PUBLISHED PUBLIC airports...period
You have to be careful with public use airports, as well. You even have to be careful with notams.
A few years ago I checked notams on an early Saturday morning, there was over a page of them for Morrisville, VT. VASIs out of service (x2), runway lights out of service, taxiway lights out of service, runway end identifier lights out of service (x2), beacon out of service, on and on and ON. What do I care about any of that stuff? Later that afternoon as MVL came into view, I was astonished -- the freaking runway was GONE. Pulverised. Carted away. Big equipment all over the place. That evening I looked at Notams again. The significant bit was hiding in the middle of that page and a half of useless text. It was the shortest notam of the bunch. "arpt clsd". And I missed it. No serious concern in this case, there are landable fields in the area.
Any time you glide to a location that has only one place to land, you put yourself at heightened risk. Try not to do that unless you have known current, good intel. Arriving over the only good place to land within reach, then suddenly discovering that it isn't the good place to land you thought... is the wrong kind of exciting.
T8
Roy B.
May 26th 20, 05:13 PM
Amen to Evan's comments about airports. And - don't believe contest databases about what is an "airfield" either. Last year at the Hobbs 18m Nationals I was faced with a doubtful final glide into wind and diverted to the "private airfield" in the contest database called "Two Leggs". Guess what? Hadn't been there for 20 years. I landed in a newly planted cotton field. Nice farmer pulled me out.
ROY
>
> I learned to fly gliders in Miami FL, where the is effectively no cross country due to the terrain (or lack of it :-)). After I got good enough to stay up thermaling for several hours at a time, I decided it was time to move the glider to a place where I could learn to fly cross country, so I moved it to Atlanta. Unfortunately, the coronavirus hit and all the clubs are effectively closed to me while I'm sheltering-in-place.
>
> From reading soaring books and articles such as Kai Gersten's "Off-Airport Landings", I always just assumed that you could never RELY on local knowledge and that there is a good probability that one day you will need to simply pick a field or private airport, especially on long cross countries, or cross countries where bad weather has caused you to deviate far from the task line.
>
> Ben
Hi Ben,
Mid Georgia Soaring Association (www.soar-mgsa.org) is 1 hour east of Atlanta, and they are operating again with special procedures. Last weekend they did training flights to get everyone current for the year. They are also an amazing club to learn cross country. They host a XC camp every year in Cordele, GA, and one the main reasons its held there is because its surrounded by a lot of landable fields, which gives people . I've landed out twice there in unknown fields. Its not encouraged to go land in random fields by any means, but the knowledge and skills needed to make a judgment to find a field and land in it are taught because it's assumed if you do any sort of cross country flying in the southeast, you'll probably find yourself needed to land in a field at some point.
Mike the Strike
May 26th 20, 06:21 PM
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 9:26:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> >
> > I learned to fly gliders in Miami FL, where the is effectively no cross country due to the terrain (or lack of it :-)). After I got good enough to stay up thermaling for several hours at a time, I decided it was time to move the glider to a place where I could learn to fly cross country, so I moved it to Atlanta. Unfortunately, the coronavirus hit and all the clubs are effectively closed to me while I'm sheltering-in-place.
> >
> > From reading soaring books and articles such as Kai Gersten's "Off-Airport Landings", I always just assumed that you could never RELY on local knowledge and that there is a good probability that one day you will need to simply pick a field or private airport, especially on long cross countries, or cross countries where bad weather has caused you to deviate far from the task line.
> >
> > Ben
>
> Hi Ben,
>
> Mid Georgia Soaring Association (www.soar-mgsa.org) is 1 hour east of Atlanta, and they are operating again with special procedures. Last weekend they did training flights to get everyone current for the year. They are also an amazing club to learn cross country. They host a XC camp every year in Cordele, GA, and one the main reasons its held there is because its surrounded by a lot of landable fields, which gives people . I've landed out twice there in unknown fields. Its not encouraged to go land in random fields by any means, but the knowledge and skills needed to make a judgment to find a field and land in it are taught because it's assumed if you do any sort of cross country flying in the southeast, you'll probably find yourself needed to land in a field at some point.
I've landed at a number of private airstrips - including some not far from Atlanta - and have always been welcomed. My best experience was landing at a residential airport community in a remote area of Arizona on May 5th - as I exited the runway onto a houses's front lawn, the owner came out with a cold beer and welcomed me to the Cinco de Mayo party - my crew joined me later! My worst experience was a farm strip close to the Mexican border that turned out to be a haven for smugglers.
Unless the strip is long-abandoned and overgrown, you're almost certain to be better off than landing in a field.
One final bit of advice - don't land in an asparagus field! It's an expensive crop and you will definitely **** off the farmer!
Mike
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
The general rule of thumb is "You can't get hurt in the dirt." The majority of private airstrips are unsuitable for gliders (maybe a PW5). If you do consider it, visit the strip and take photos and notes for reference. Over time you can build a database of suitable strips. At a minimum look at the strip with Google Earth. Just committing to a strip that is listed as R on the chart is a definite crap shoot. A plowed field is a safer choice (although you will have to clean the glider afterwards.
BTW, how "small" are you talking about?
Tom
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 10:43:27 AM UTC-4, 6PK wrote:
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 2:35:28 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
> >
> > If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
> >
> > Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
> >
> > Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
> >
> > Ben
>
> No substitute for setting foot on any possible landing area (open fields or private airports) first prior to considering it safe other than PUBLISHED PUBLIC airports...period
Amen to that! A good example is Estancia Municipal in NM, just a hop and a skip south of Moriarty. It was always advertised as landable for gliders by the locals. On a day with not so good weather (hard to imagine but they do exist in NM!), I took a drive down there to see it from the ground. I am glad I did! The runway is narrow and there is a berm on one side. A <=15m ship may be ok but a 20+m with low wings like mine may be in trouble.
Uli
'AS'
P.S.: the 'The Old Mill' restaurant on Rt.41 in Estancia has excellent Mexican food, which made the trip even worth more! :-)
Tango Eight
May 26th 20, 07:27 PM
On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 12:13:42 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> Amen to Evan's comments about airports. And - don't believe contest databases about what is an "airfield" either. Last year at the Hobbs 18m Nationals I was faced with a doubtful final glide into wind and diverted to the "private airfield" in the contest database called "Two Leggs". Guess what? Hadn't been there for 20 years. I landed in a newly planted cotton field. Nice farmer pulled me out.
> ROY
lol... You probably landed in the same field I did (in 2013) after the same search for the same non-existent, "No Leggs" airport.
T8
What some of us have been doing here in eastern Colorado is going on 'Adventure Tours'. On non fly days we drive around and scope out the private strips as well as strips we know of that aren't in any aeronautical database. What we've found is that many of the mapped airports and private airports are no longer usable. On the other hand we've found several very nice private strips. When possible we try to contact the owner to see if landing there is okay. The answer usually is 'Anytime!'. We're slowly working up a database of where to land as well as where NOT to land.
Mark
Black Forest Soaring Society
Hi Charles. I fly just west of you guys in sylacauga AL with central Alabama soaring assoc. Welcome to the fun world of low performance xc soaring! I fly a 1-26 which is even lower down the performance polar than your PW.
Before you work on field identification, there is a more important prerequisite imop. That is, take some time and invest in a bunch of pattern tows and get very very good at spot landings. Find out exactly how short you can land straight in and over obstacles. You need to know exactly what you and your ship are capable of. Also learn to identify this distance visually from 1,000ft. For me and my ship, at 1,000 ft I can land in a clearing that is the length of my index finger.
Once you get this down, the world of where you can put your bird down safely really opens up. I don’t real restrict myself anymore to established airstrips. I have found that landing out in property chosen fields has led to way less surprises than heading for a strip that really isn’t there anymore or turns out to be totally unmaintained and over grown.
I have more than 30 off field landings (not airstrips) and knock on wood, have never scratched a thing. But the bigger bonus has been the incredible folks I have met and the adventures that xc has been.
Good luck on your journey. If you need any tips on going far with low performance birds drop me a pm or swing over to sylacauga for a weekend and I would be happy to team fly some with you.
Dan
MNLou
May 27th 20, 01:16 AM
Charles -
I assume you have all your badges up to an including Silver Altitude and Duration. If not, I'd work on those as they are great training to get you ready for doing the spot landing as Dan suggested.
And XC soaring!
Lou
Charles Longley
May 27th 20, 04:22 AM
What’s worked really well for me is to buzz around with my Cub looking at land out options. If you have access to a power airplane go practice“ engine out landings” at possible land out sites.
George Haeh
May 28th 20, 03:44 AM
"Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
I spent 29 years with hang gliders, which have much better "short field" capabilities than sailplanes. After a LOT of outlandings in really questionable fields, I was amazed at he number of other pilots who looked at those same fields from the ground and said, "No Problem!"
Believe me, a field you are walking on looks a LOT bigger than it does from the air.
Ask any newbie Naval Aviator looking down at the deck of an aircraft carrier for the first time.
> Amen to that! A good example is Estancia Municipal in NM, just a hop and a skip south of Moriarty. It was always advertised as landable for gliders by the locals. On a day with not so good weather (hard to imagine but they do exist in NM!), I took a drive down there to see it from the ground. I am glad I did! The runway is narrow and there is a berm on one side. A <=15m ship may be ok but a 20+m with low wings like mine may be in trouble.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
>
> P.S.: the 'The Old Mill' restaurant on Rt.41 in Estancia has excellent Mexican food, which made the trip even worth more! :-)
I've outlanded at Estancia three or four times when my final glide calculations simply did not agree with the weather. It isn't really a problem if you land on the centerline with your wings level, and then drift left or right on rollout to place one wingtip on the runway with the high wing above the berm, brush and runway reflectors. I wouldn't consider an aerotow out of the strip unless the wind was straight down the runway and I had a wing runner who knew what he was doing.
However, I second the "Old Mill" restaurant recommendation.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 28th 20, 01:40 PM
On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
>
> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
>
> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
>
> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
>
> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
BobW
May 28th 20, 02:47 PM
>> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
<Snip...>
>
> ...So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not
> a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
Heh. There's a difference between plowed(-only) and plowed-n-disked. This
"Duh!" moment was driven home to me on short final when - approaching a
plowed-only field - I belatedly realized the plowed-n-disked one adjacent,
with its (barely visible) furrows slightly catty-corner to the minimal breeze,
was the considerably better one. Moments later the plowed-only field had its
biggest-yet clod standing atop it...the new King of Clods!
Good thing I was flying a 1-26...torn fabric is a lot easier to fix than
broken gear, fuselage or (youch) coccyx!
Bob - never seen Elvis - W.
---
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Eric Greenwell[_4_]
May 28th 20, 06:24 PM
Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
> On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
>> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
>>
>> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
>>
>> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
>>
>> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
>>
>> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
>
> I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
>
"You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Soartech
May 28th 20, 10:43 PM
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 11:52:53 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> This is an interesting post. Where are you flying from that you seem to be totally alone? I've flown from many operations, all with an active cross country community. In any such operation, there is a vast amount of local experience with the nearby private airports. Most of the laudable ones will have been landed at. The unfriendly farmers will be known.
>
John then you are lucky. I live in one of the wealthiest states in the US but there are only about 4 active XC pilots in the entire state. And I think only 2 regularly fly in our state. Soaring is just not a popular thing here. Probably 9 sailplanes in the entire state. One small club on the opposite end.
Even the HG/PG pilots seem to be doing way less XC than they were 10 years ago.
Adventure has fallen out of favor.
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
> > On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> >> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me..
> >>
> >> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
> >>
> >> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
> >>
> >> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
> >>
> >> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
> >
> > I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
> >
> "You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
> where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
> kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
> more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.
I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case).. It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.
Tom
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 29th 20, 12:36 AM
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 3:28:55 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
> > > On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> > >> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
> > >>
> > >> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
> > >>
> > >> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
> > >>
> > >> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
> > >>
> > >> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
> > >
> > > I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
> > >
> > "You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
> > where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
> > kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
> > more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>
> No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.
>
> I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case). It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.
>
> Tom
Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen some beautiful fields.
Out here in the west (read "stinkin' desert") many "plowed fields" are crop circles, and while the sprinkler system is a hazard, at least it is visible. What will get your attention are the deep circular ruts left by said sprinkler system. That and the (often) circular furrows, although many farmers ("Agrarians," as Pez D. Spencer calls them) plow in parallel lines and let the sprinkler deal with making its own path. What can be annoying, if not downright dangerous, is having to land with the furrows, as opposed to at an angle, no matter what the crosswind component may be. Some crops need very deep furrows, and landing across the pattern is going to be extremely rough and potentially dangerous.
So far, in 20 years of sailplane XC and over 1,200 flights, I have "landed out" less than 10 times, and all but one were on a runway. Some were dirt, but they were all "real" runways. The only one that wasn't USED to be a runway, but it had degraded into just a rough dirt line in the weeds.
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:36:25 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 3:28:55 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:24:25 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > Jonathan St. Cloud wrote on 5/28/2020 5:40 AM:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:44:14 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> > > >> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
> > > >>
> > > >> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
> > > >>
> > > >> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
> > > >>
> > > >> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
> > > >
> > > > I fly in the mountains of the west. Very few fields where I fly, but where I grew up in Idaho, I would not want to land those lowed fields. I used to work pea harvest and there would be dirt clods, hard dirt clods that could take your landing gear out and break your back. So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule. Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not.
> > > >
> > > "You don't get hurt in the dirt" is best applied in eastern Washington State,
> > > where the dirt is more like face powder and sand, and plowing doesn't produce the
> > > kinds of clumps/clods you see in Kansas and other places with "real" dirt and lots
> > > more moisture. It's also a pretty good mantra in much of Idaho and eastern Oregon.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> >
> > No, I think applies virtually anywhere. A plowed field will be free of any large rocks (they damage farm equipment), is fairly uniform for proper irrigation, won't have deep drainage ditches, barbed wire fences, chunks of discarded metal, bushes, irrigation pipes, etc. Next on the list is a field with a low crop and dirt is visible between the crop rows. A much worse option is a pasture where all of the above is a possibility if not a likelihood.
> >
> > I once landed on what turned out to be an abandoned air stip south of Air Sailing in an ASW19. While in the pattern I could see that the air strip was narrow with high berms on both sides. I didn't think my wings would clear the berms so I landed on one of the berms (which turned out to be the case). It worked out ok, but it was an eye-opener on how deceiving these strips are at altitude.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen some beautiful fields.
Yes, it's called the NTSB. Broken gliders end up in their database. Another possibility are contest reports, where landouts are common. If a competitor withdraws after a landout it is pretty likely that he/she damaged the glider.
Tom
airport or small field? depends...
Scary question if it means you arrive at an unknown site without enough energy to provide some time to inspect and think through a landing.
If you don't have a known site/plan pre-chosen, how to land depends on which looks like a better plan when you get there. How big, how rough, slope, doable approach, how get a trailer to it. As a bonus, can I get a tow out of there. Double bonus if there is beer and BBQ on the ground. That needs some time to sort out.
Knock on wood, so far I've been able to get to each outlanding with enough energy to circle to inspect and if I can circle with zero sink, maybe extra inspect, move landing plan, or climb out.
I don't think this is so much a matter of luck as being willing to sometimes divert sideways or backwards from task early when low to get to a place more likely to work out.
Once this meant choosing between three equal fields. One with a locked gate, one with cows and one freshly harvested with empty rows pointing to a nice open gate. Retrieve was about 50 feet.
Once this meant zero sink circling/inspecting over a beautifully groomed site next to a road. A second circle showed it to be a horse farm behind locked gates with a equally good place outside the gates which became the new best place and a source of enough lift to finish the day's task.
I'm not sure if airport or field is answerable. Instead of asking, try to get there with enough energy to provide the time to choose.
Michael Opitz
May 29th 20, 03:50 AM
At 23:36 28 May 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud
>
>Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a
plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good
landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in
plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen
some beautiful fields.
>
Jon, that is exactly the point - Real World - The real world is very
different in different places. We had a ton of broken gliders from
landing in plowed fields during the 1985 WGC in Italy. Over there
the soil is clay, and that summer was dry. The clay was so
compacted that the farmers used bulldozers to pull the plows
because the tractors weren't strong enough. The furrows were
sometimes a foot to 1.5 feet deep, and the clods that were tilled up
were large and like boulders. During practice, I landed in one that
had only 6" furrows, but was hard as brick. The jarring caused the
gear handle on my Discus-b to come out of the down detent, and
the gear collapsed, so I wound up sliding on my belly for a short
ways. Klaus Holighaus spent most of the night fixing the small
belly hole himself, and I flew the rest of the contest with a ~1ft
green spot on the belly. Dick Brandt made me a hard rubber wedge
to place in the gear handle track after the gear was lowered in order
to keep the gear handle from popping out again. Our coach, Walter
Neubert, had loaned his brand new ASW-20 to Henri Stouffs of
Belgium. Hernri absolutely totaled it out landing in a plowed field
with deeper furrows and bigger clods. The damage list went on and
on. The bottom line is that not all plowed fields are alike or
landable. It all depends on the the local area, the kind of soil, the
moisture content, the farming methods, the wx, etc. To try and
give someone universal advice that all plowed fields are good off
field landing options is just being way too short sighted for me.
You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.
RO
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 29th 20, 04:14 AM
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 8:00:03 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 23:36 28 May 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud
> >
> >Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a
> plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good
> landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in
> plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen
> some beautiful fields.
> >
> Jon, that is exactly the point - Real World - The real world is very
> different in different places. We had a ton of broken gliders from
> landing in plowed fields during the 1985 WGC in Italy. Over there
> the soil is clay, and that summer was dry. The clay was so
> compacted that the farmers used bulldozers to pull the plows
> because the tractors weren't strong enough. The furrows were
> sometimes a foot to 1.5 feet deep, and the clods that were tilled up
> were large and like boulders. During practice, I landed in one that
> had only 6" furrows, but was hard as brick. The jarring caused the
> gear handle on my Discus-b to come out of the down detent, and
> the gear collapsed, so I wound up sliding on my belly for a short
> ways. Klaus Holighaus spent most of the night fixing the small
> belly hole himself, and I flew the rest of the contest with a ~1ft
> green spot on the belly. Dick Brandt made me a hard rubber wedge
> to place in the gear handle track after the gear was lowered in order
> to keep the gear handle from popping out again. Our coach, Walter
> Neubert, had loaned his brand new ASW-20 to Henri Stouffs of
> Belgium. Hernri absolutely totaled it out landing in a plowed field
> with deeper furrows and bigger clods. The damage list went on and
> on. The bottom line is that not all plowed fields are alike or
> landable. It all depends on the the local area, the kind of soil, the
> moisture content, the farming methods, the wx, etc. To try and
> give someone universal advice that all plowed fields are good off
> field landing options is just being way too short sighted for me.
> You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
> are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.
>
> RO
Well then I think that about settles it, as I posted 14 hours ago: "So "land in the dirt and you won't get hurt" is again, a guideline, not a rule." Lots of plowed fields are well plowed many are not. "
> > You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
> > are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.
A farmer's field could mean sod, hay, cultivated crop, livestock, plant nursery, orchard, tree farm, and lots of other stuff. Each type of crop has a different set of steps for farming. Depending on what the farmer and mother nature have been up to recently, it might be landable or to be avoided.
Choosing requires time for a careful look and some sense of what farmers do in your area in the current season. No fixed rules, but the above list is somewhat ordered from most to least likely landable. Most try to avoid getting to a situation where they have to land with 'the cows' and below on the list.
A known airport might be first on the list, but an unknown one might be a ways down, especially if it hasn't been used in a while.
Hal 1L
May 29th 20, 08:46 PM
Many folks who have their own landing strip will, if asked, not give you permission to land there. This is to protect themselves from legal liability.. The question to ask is something like "If a glider gets low and must land on your field, would you as the field owner cause a problem for the pilot?" Most private landing strip owners are helpful and friendly to glider pilots who land there, even if their field is listed as restricted or private..
On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
>
> If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
>
> Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
>
> Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
>
> Ben
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 29th 20, 09:21 PM
On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 12:46:15 PM UTC-7, Hal 1L wrote:
> Many folks who have their own landing strip will, if asked, not give you permission to land there. This is to protect themselves from legal liability. The question to ask is something like "If a glider gets low and must land on your field, would you as the field owner cause a problem for the pilot?" Most private landing strip owners are helpful and friendly to glider pilots who land there, even if their field is listed as restricted or private.
>
> On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:35:28 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I'm a former cfi-i/mei and commercial glider pilot, but I've never gone cross-country in my PW-5 glider. Training up for it though. A question:
> >
> > If you are in an area where the fields are small, but there are several private airfields around, which should be your priority?
> >
> > Seems to me that the private airport would be safer, assuming you have enough altitude to overfly it. Also I notice that my (new) Oudie2 shows all the private airstrips around as potential landout spots.
> >
> > Will you get in trouble (legal or financial) if you have to landout at a private airport (assuming you aren't declaring an emergency, of course)?
> >
> > Ben
Not all private strips are friendly as anyone that has landed at Pala airport in Southern CA can attest. I landed a helicopter there once to check a chip light, holly hell, you would have thought a black man landed there. Security car, with lights flashing, siren wailing came scratching to a halt, too close for comfort. They demanded to know why I was there, how soon I could leave and why I flew a non-standard pattern. I calmly explained that: a) I was there because of a chip light; b) I would be gone as soon as I checked the chip light and verified it was safe to fly; and c) helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic. I checked the chip detector, while another security guard came over to make me more uncomfortable. He loudly proclaimed "Those Goddamn Marine helicopters land here occasionally and we just hate that." I responded "so, did you just want them to die?" As I was getting back in the bird and going through the start up, yet another car with flashing lights comes up and said "wait here the president is coming", I responded "the president of the United States?", "no the president of the resort". That ****ed me off! I said, "great, if he is here in the next two minutes and can speak over the downwash." As I lifted off I could see yet another two security cars with full lights, running down the length of the runway to reach me. I assumed those cars contained rtes president and entourage. That seemed like a good direction to get my speed up in ground effect at about three feet AGL. Filed a NASA report, and put a black x by that airport in my mind. I have never experienced so much hate towards an aviator who just needed a place to check a problem. Never heard from them again but always made sure to do a non-standard approach and simulated touchdown every time I was in the hood. I was hoping to de-sensitize them to foreign aircraft and as a younger man, I behaved differently than now.
Papa3[_2_]
May 30th 20, 03:09 AM
Here in the Northeast, I've had good luck with "land in hay, make your day". Ideal is recently mown and/or raked. as the mowers and tedders/rakes are only used in hospitable terrain. Obviously, baled but not collected is a problem. Lots of fields here have the hay baled and stacked/stored alongside the field, including the large, round bales wrapped in white plastic that look like huge marshmallows. When you see that, it's a reasonable bet that the field is kept in hay and should be landable.
One of my favorite landouts happened near Seneca lake where I was hanging on in weak lift between 800 and 1000 feet while the farmer cut my "airport" as I was grinding away. It was a nice, 2000 foot field with fairly tall grass, and when I got there the first pass was probably only a semi-span wide. After 2 passes I was pretty sure it was plenty wide, and by the time I was ready to land he was halfway through pass #3.
He was surprised to find an "airplane" in his field when he turned around to start pass #4, but he warmed up when I offered to help with some of the other chores while I waited for crew. He finished up and met me at the barn where he opened the fridge stocked with Yeungling. I sent him an SSA calendar for Christmas, and we got a nice card from him for several years after that.
P3
on Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 10:44:14 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> "Land in the dirt, you won't get hurt" has, so far, worked well for me.
>
> Farmers don't get worked up about crop damage when it's not even an inch high.
>
> With private strips, width can be a deal/glider breaker. I passed up one in the book because the stated width looked a tight squeeze. And I once saw the green (corn) stains on the tips of an 18m self launcher. The owner had the look of a narrow escape on him. The private strips I have used were known to my local club as wide enough for gliders. The owners have been hospitable and happy to talk airplanes. There's the rare one that won't allow aerotow retrieve because of liability considerations.
>
> You can compare the width to power pole spacing.
>
> No matter how hard you study the local fields and airports, the day will likely come when you have to evaluate fields from the air. It's been recommended for aspiring XC pilots to evaluate possible fields from the air and drive over for a look.
On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 8:00:03 PM UTC-7, Michael Opitz wrote:
> At 23:36 28 May 2020, Jonathan St. Cloud
> >
> >Any real world data? How many of you have broken a glider in a
> plowed field? They can be very inviting and many are very good
> landing sites, but know your area. I have both seen and worked in
> plowed fields that I would not attempt to land in. And I have seen
> some beautiful fields.
> >
> Jon, that is exactly the point - Real World - The real world is very
> different in different places. We had a ton of broken gliders from
> landing in plowed fields during the 1985 WGC in Italy. Over there
> the soil is clay, and that summer was dry. The clay was so
> compacted that the farmers used bulldozers to pull the plows
> because the tractors weren't strong enough. The furrows were
> sometimes a foot to 1.5 feet deep, and the clods that were tilled up
> were large and like boulders. During practice, I landed in one that
> had only 6" furrows, but was hard as brick. The jarring caused the
> gear handle on my Discus-b to come out of the down detent, and
> the gear collapsed, so I wound up sliding on my belly for a short
> ways. Klaus Holighaus spent most of the night fixing the small
> belly hole himself, and I flew the rest of the contest with a ~1ft
> green spot on the belly. Dick Brandt made me a hard rubber wedge
> to place in the gear handle track after the gear was lowered in order
> to keep the gear handle from popping out again. Our coach, Walter
> Neubert, had loaned his brand new ASW-20 to Henri Stouffs of
> Belgium. Hernri absolutely totaled it out landing in a plowed field
> with deeper furrows and bigger clods. The damage list went on and
> on. The bottom line is that not all plowed fields are alike or
> landable. It all depends on the the local area, the kind of soil, the
> moisture content, the farming methods, the wx, etc. To try and
> give someone universal advice that all plowed fields are good off
> field landing options is just being way too short sighted for me.
> You have to know the local agriculture at the time of year that you
> are flying, and then qualify the off field landing options.
>
> RO
But did anybody get hurt? I said "If you land in the dirt you won't get hurt" - I didn't say a thing about the glider. Of course, the glider is usually better off it doesn't hit a fence post or drainage ditch. On the other hand, landing in a pasture with a barbed wire fence will do surprisingly little damage to the glider (like a broken canopy), but might very well decapitate the pilot. You're NOT going to find a barbed wire fence in the middle of a plowed field. Which would you chose?
Tom
Charles Ethridge
May 30th 20, 08:34 PM
Thanks for all your responses.
Reading them over, my take on this is that there is no truly "safe" way to landout in fields or unknown private airports. By "safe" I mean safe for you AND for the glider. I'm not rich enough to afford to keep having a broken glider fixed.
This got me wondering about a couple of things though:
1. Is there an area in the USA where there is a gliderport where pilots fly lots of cross country and which, at certain times of the year also has large, safe fields to land along the known cross country routes? Since I'm semi-retired perhaps I could move there for a summer, just to get my badges and cross country experience.
2. What about the concept I read about (forgot where) about thermaling over a KNOWN landable airport until gaining enough altitude to reasonably get to the next known landable airport? That seems like it might be doable here in north-central Georgia, where there are so many decent uncontrolled airports.
Ben
Charles, please don’t take the wrong perspective from our posts. Its not true to say there is no safe way to fly xc and that whatever you do carries a high chance of damage to yourself and-or your ship. That is simply not true.
If you do as recommended in learning to land your ship very efficiently, minimum and exact speed control, (your PW can land as short as our 1-26’s, Ive seen it done at the 1-26 Championship/Low Performance contest last year),AND pick routes which have a generous supply of open fields, you can very safely do lots of xc. You don’t need big wings and super high performance ships. In fact, a very good argument can be made that the small, slower speed ships are easier and safer to fly xc given that the availability of landable fields for us is much greater than the 18-20 meter ships.
As for an area where you can climb high enough to go from airport to airport, thats a pretty tall order for a low performance ship. The area you fly around central georgia is very landout-field friendly. You can easily work out a few courses starting with google earth, picking potential landout fields spaced if you like every 10 or even down to 5 mile spacing. Then take a weekend drive and check them out from the ground or get a power plane buddy and fly the route checking them out. Easy piesy, absolutely safe.
If you want to go somewhere to fly xc with an abundance of humongous landable fields, Sunflower aerodrome in KS would be a fine place, or Lawrenceburg IL.
I think you simply need to do a little homework finding out how far you can fly given 2,000 ft of altitude, plan a few simple triangles, practice your short field/spot landing skills, then go for it. You can over think this thing to the point where you end up too frightened to ever go anywhere. Many of us have had first xc/landout jitters but went, did a flight, maybe landed out successfully. And afterwards realized it not such a big scary deal after all.
Dan
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
May 30th 20, 11:38 PM
Charles Ethridge wrote on 5/30/2020 12:34 PM:
> Thanks for all your responses.
>
> Reading them over, my take on this is that there is no truly "safe" way to landout in fields or unknown private airports. By "safe" I mean safe for you AND for the glider. I'm not rich enough to afford to keep having a broken glider fixed.
>
> This got me wondering about a couple of things though:
>
> 1. Is there an area in the USA where there is a gliderport where pilots fly lots of cross country and which, at certain times of the year also has large, safe fields to land along the known cross country routes? Since I'm semi-retired perhaps I could move there for a summer, just to get my badges and cross country experience.
>
> 2. What about the concept I read about (forgot where) about thermaling over a KNOWN landable airport until gaining enough altitude to reasonably get to the next known landable airport? That seems like it might be doable here in north-central Georgia, where there are so many decent uncontrolled airports.
>
> Ben
>
What books have you read about XC flying?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
May 30th 20, 11:48 PM
On Sat, 30 May 2020 15:25:15 -0700, agcatflyr wrote:
> Charles, please don’t take the wrong perspective from our posts. Its not
> true to say there is no safe way to fly xc and that whatever you do
> carries a high chance of damage to yourself and-or your ship. That is
> simply not true.
>
> If you do as recommended in learning to land your ship very efficiently,
> minimum and exact speed control, (your PW can land as short as our
> 1-26’s, Ive seen it done at the 1-26 Championship/Low Performance
> contest last year),AND pick routes which have a generous supply of open
> fields, you can very safely do lots of xc. You don’t need big wings and
> super high performance ships. In fact, a very good argument can be made
> that the small, slower speed ships are easier and safer to fly xc given
> that the availability of landable fields for us is much greater than
> the 18-20 meter ships.
>
> As for an area where you can climb high enough to go from airport to
> airport, thats a pretty tall order for a low performance ship. The area
> you fly around central georgia is very landout-field friendly. You can
> easily work out a few courses starting with google earth, picking
> potential landout fields spaced if you like every 10 or even down to 5
> mile spacing. Then take a weekend drive and check them out from the
> ground or get a power plane buddy and fly the route checking them out.
> Easy piesy, absolutely safe.
>
> If you want to go somewhere to fly xc with an abundance of humongous
> landable fields, Sunflower aerodrome in KS would be a fine place, or
> Lawrenceburg IL.
>
> I think you simply need to do a little homework finding out how far you
> can fly given 2,000 ft of altitude, plan a few simple triangles,
> practice your short field/spot landing skills, then go for it. You can
> over think this thing to the point where you end up too frightened to
> ever go anywhere. Many of us have had first xc/landout jitters but went,
> did a flight, maybe landed out successfully. And afterwards realized it
> not such a big scary deal after all.
> Dan
>
Another way that might work for you is to do the height and duration legs
of silver C first: both can be done with local flying and should be
useful in convincing yourself that you CAN climb more than 3270 ft above
release height and that you can stay up for 5 hours. Then think about
setting a self-declared task of making a flight of more than 50km ending
at a known landable airfield. If you can set a 50km flight over mostly-
landable country and downwind as well, so much the better, and if you've
never visited the destination field that doesn't matter - in fact you'll
learn more if you haven't seen it but just been told is good.
This is exactly how Silver C was done on my club. I did the height and
duration legs soaring locally and then, after getting instructor signoffs
for field selection, field landing practise, and navigation (without GPS
- it was that long ago) I was told to map-read my way to a gliding club
about 65 km away that I had never visited, and land there so I got useful
practise landing at a previously unknown airfield - in fact I sat in a
thermal off to one side to work out the traffic pattern, joined the
circuit and landed there to be offered congratulations and a beer.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Dan Marotta
May 31st 20, 05:29 AM
You don't need to climb high enough to reach the next field.* A good way
to fly early cross country is to climb and go out on course. Keep the
field you left within reach as you climb and travel to the next field.*
When the next field is in reach, you can let go of the previous field
and proceed.* Repeat the process from field to field and before long,
you'll be stretching your wings.
Oh, and read Helmut Reichmann's book, "Streckensegelflug" (I hope I
spelled that correctly).* It translates to "Cross-Country Gliding". The
best book on soaring that I've ever read.
On 5/30/2020 4:48 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 30 May 2020 15:25:15 -0700, agcatflyr wrote:
>
>> Charles, please don’t take the wrong perspective from our posts. Its not
>> true to say there is no safe way to fly xc and that whatever you do
>> carries a high chance of damage to yourself and-or your ship. That is
>> simply not true.
>>
>> If you do as recommended in learning to land your ship very efficiently,
>> minimum and exact speed control, (your PW can land as short as our
>> 1-26’s, Ive seen it done at the 1-26 Championship/Low Performance
>> contest last year),AND pick routes which have a generous supply of open
>> fields, you can very safely do lots of xc. You don’t need big wings and
>> super high performance ships. In fact, a very good argument can be made
>> that the small, slower speed ships are easier and safer to fly xc given
>> that the availability of landable fields for us is much greater than
>> the 18-20 meter ships.
>>
>> As for an area where you can climb high enough to go from airport to
>> airport, thats a pretty tall order for a low performance ship. The area
>> you fly around central georgia is very landout-field friendly. You can
>> easily work out a few courses starting with google earth, picking
>> potential landout fields spaced if you like every 10 or even down to 5
>> mile spacing. Then take a weekend drive and check them out from the
>> ground or get a power plane buddy and fly the route checking them out.
>> Easy piesy, absolutely safe.
>>
>> If you want to go somewhere to fly xc with an abundance of humongous
>> landable fields, Sunflower aerodrome in KS would be a fine place, or
>> Lawrenceburg IL.
>>
>> I think you simply need to do a little homework finding out how far you
>> can fly given 2,000 ft of altitude, plan a few simple triangles,
>> practice your short field/spot landing skills, then go for it. You can
>> over think this thing to the point where you end up too frightened to
>> ever go anywhere. Many of us have had first xc/landout jitters but went,
>> did a flight, maybe landed out successfully. And afterwards realized it
>> not such a big scary deal after all.
>> Dan
>>
> Another way that might work for you is to do the height and duration legs
> of silver C first: both can be done with local flying and should be
> useful in convincing yourself that you CAN climb more than 3270 ft above
> release height and that you can stay up for 5 hours. Then think about
> setting a self-declared task of making a flight of more than 50km ending
> at a known landable airfield. If you can set a 50km flight over mostly-
> landable country and downwind as well, so much the better, and if you've
> never visited the destination field that doesn't matter - in fact you'll
> learn more if you haven't seen it but just been told is good.
>
> This is exactly how Silver C was done on my club. I did the height and
> duration legs soaring locally and then, after getting instructor signoffs
> for field selection, field landing practise, and navigation (without GPS
> - it was that long ago) I was told to map-read my way to a gliding club
> about 65 km away that I had never visited, and land there so I got useful
> practise landing at a previously unknown airfield - in fact I sat in a
> thermal off to one side to work out the traffic pattern, joined the
> circuit and landed there to be offered congratulations and a beer.
>
>
--
Dan, 5J
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:34:22 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Thanks for all your responses.
>
> Reading them over, my take on this is that there is no truly "safe" way to landout in fields or unknown private airports. By "safe" I mean safe for you AND for the glider. I'm not rich enough to afford to keep having a broken glider fixed.
>
> This got me wondering about a couple of things though:
>
> 1. Is there an area in the USA where there is a gliderport where pilots fly lots of cross country and which, at certain times of the year also has large, safe fields to land along the known cross country routes? Since I'm semi-retired perhaps I could move there for a summer, just to get my badges and cross country experience.
>
> 2. What about the concept I read about (forgot where) about thermaling over a KNOWN landable airport until gaining enough altitude to reasonably get to the next known landable airport? That seems like it might be doable here in north-central Georgia, where there are so many decent uncontrolled airports.
>
> Ben
The answer is actually pretty simple: you start out only flying cross country on the stronger days when you have an easy glide to known good airports or verified airstrips. Gradually you will build your confidence and will be willing to take more risks. The bottom line is, however, until you have actually landed in a field you will never be confident of your abilities to do so.
Part of the frustration of giving general advice in a forum like RAS somebody will nit-pick you to death. Like, are you expecting to fly gliders in Italy? REALLY?? So WTF does that have to do with what you are contemplating? Answer: NOTHING!
Tom
Charles Ethridge
May 31st 20, 02:34 PM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 6:38:56 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >
> What books have you read about XC flying?
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
Advanced Soaring Made Easy - Bernard Eckey
After Solo - Thomas Knauff
The Soaring Engine - G Dale
Landing Out - The Final Four Minutes - Bob Wander
Winning - George Moffat
That great landout booklet by Kai Gersten that I can't find on the internet anymore...
Just bought Reichmann's Cross-Country Soaring, so starting on that now.
Ben
Charles Ethridge
May 31st 20, 02:35 PM
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 12:29:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You don't need to climb high enough to reach the next field.* A good way
> to fly early cross country is to climb and go out on course. Keep the
> field you left within reach as you climb and travel to the next field.*
> When the next field is in reach, you can let go of the previous field
> and proceed.* Repeat the process from field to field and before long,
> you'll be stretching your wings.
>
> Oh, and read Helmut Reichmann's book, "Streckensegelflug" (I hope I
> spelled that correctly).* It translates to "Cross-Country Gliding". The
> best book on soaring that I've ever read.
> --
> Dan, 5J
Good point!
I just bought Reichmann's book (English version).
Ben
Charles,
The Soaring Club of Houston has an incredible cross-country soaring program.. We begin with the A, B, C and Bronze badges using both classroom and glider sessions. Each Saturday morning, we begin with a group class followed by flying. At the end of the day, we review IGC files using SeeYou on the big-screen tv for all to compare and learn from. From January through March, we have much more time for class and the soaring days are typically short. By this time of year, most will have passed their C or Bronze and are attempting their Silver badge. We require the Silver badge before you can race with us but once you have it, the days are similarly organized with daily weather briefings, task calls and racing in both FAI and Sports categories. We're lucky to have fantastic coaching and a highly-engaged group of cross-country race pilots who are willing to share everything they know to make you better. Each race day typically ends with a patio debriefing with a cold beverage followed by grilling and a community dinner.
Houston has good soaring year-round but it's best from July through September. The surrounding area is relatively flat with many nearby airports, open fields and nice people. The club is quite large with a fully-furnished clubhouse, 3 Pawnees, members can own hangars on the field and we even have an RV campground with full hookups on the 90 acres of land we own. This is a fantastic place to learn to fly cross-country! We also have two PW-5s who race with us every week and they fly competitively in the tasks we call so you would be very comfortable in this crowd.
We're hosting the Sports Class Nationals the first week of August, come on out and visit us this Summer, you'll be glad you did!
Chuck Werninger
LS-4 VL
Soaring Club of Houston
Rob[_10_]
May 31st 20, 04:20 PM
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 7:10:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Charles,
>
> The Soaring Club of Houston has an incredible cross-country soaring program. We begin with the A, B, C and Bronze badges using both classroom and glider sessions. Each Saturday morning, we begin with a group class followed by flying. At the end of the day, we review IGC files using SeeYou on the big-screen tv for all to compare and learn from. From January through March, we have much more time for class and the soaring days are typically short. By this time of year, most will have passed their C or Bronze and are attempting their Silver badge. We require the Silver badge before you can race with us but once you have it, the days are similarly organized with daily weather briefings, task calls and racing in both FAI and Sports categories. We're lucky to have fantastic coaching and a highly-engaged group of cross-country race pilots who are willing to share everything they know to make you better. Each race day typically ends with a patio debriefing with a cold beverage followed by grilling and a community dinner.
>
> Houston has good soaring year-round but it's best from July through September. The surrounding area is relatively flat with many nearby airports, open fields and nice people. The club is quite large with a fully-furnished clubhouse, 3 Pawnees, members can own hangars on the field and we even have an RV campground with full hookups on the 90 acres of land we own. This is a fantastic place to learn to fly cross-country! We also have two PW-5s who race with us every week and they fly competitively in the tasks we call so you would be very comfortable in this crowd.
>
> We're hosting the Sports Class Nationals the first week of August, come on out and visit us this Summer, you'll be glad you did!
>
> Chuck Werninger
> LS-4 VL
> Soaring Club of Houston
I will echo what Chuck said.
I'm a fellow PW-5 owner. I earned my Silver Badge in it a little over a week ago. I also have 4 landouts to my name as I've been flying it cross country: the first in a cow pasture, one at a strip that could be a dirt runway, the other 2 were at an airport. The first two required disassembly, the last two I got aero-retrieved.
I would totally recommend going through the ABC Bronze program and starting the cross country flying. The hardest thing will be peeling off from the home field. Yes, your Oudie will show you the landout spots in your database, but you should also configure your Mc & Alt and use something like McCready 3 to 5 depending on where you fly, and maybe even use bugs percentage as well and add more cushion for your altitude calculations. Using those will give you a pretty good picture of where you can reach safely. You just might be able to safely reach an airport where you can get aero retrieved and buy the tow pilot a beer vs. landing in pasture and have a half dozen of your closest friends come retrieve you with your trailer and dealing with disassembly and assembly of the glider + buying a good steak dinner for your half dozen closest friends. Better get used to it in the PW-5 by the way... :)
The nice thing about PW-5 is that it's a small glider, highly responsive and you can land almost anywhere since you have a small wing.
Enjoy it!!
Rob
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 31st 20, 06:46 PM
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 6:35:49 AM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 12:29:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > You don't need to climb high enough to reach the next field.* A good way
> > to fly early cross country is to climb and go out on course. Keep the
> > field you left within reach as you climb and travel to the next field.*
> > When the next field is in reach, you can let go of the previous field
> > and proceed.* Repeat the process from field to field and before long,
> > you'll be stretching your wings.
> >
> > Oh, and read Helmut Reichmann's book, "Streckensegelflug" (I hope I
> > spelled that correctly).* It translates to "Cross-Country Gliding".. The
> > best book on soaring that I've ever read.
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Good point!
>
> I just bought Reichmann's book (English version).
>
> Ben
This is well worth a look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXImj2rGkf8&list=WL&index=254&t=605s
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