Standalone artificial horizon

[Richard Lancaster[_2_]]

Hi all,

I’m looking for a reliable, high quality, standalone artificial horizon that fits cleanly in a round hole (I’m not wanting a square barnacle that “fits� into a round hole).

Does anyone have any flight experience with either of these:

uAvionix AV-30:
https://uavionix.com/products/av-30/

RC Allen RCA2610:
https://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2610%20information.pdf

Any hands on info appreciated.

Many thanks,

Richard

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Richard Lancaster wrote on 5/28/2020 7:59 AM:
> Hi all,
>
> I’m looking for a reliable, high quality, standalone artificial horizon that fits cleanly in a round hole (I’m not wanting a square barnacle that “fits� into a round hole).
>
> Does anyone have any flight experience with either of these:
>
> uAvionix AV-30:
> https://uavionix.com/products/av-30/
>
> RC Allen RCA2610:
> https://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2610%20information.pdf
>
> Any hands on info appreciated.

Is this for a glider? If not, then maybe an airplane forum would yield better remarks.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Richard Lancaster[_2_]]

On Thursday, 28 May 2020 18:31:31 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Is this for a glider? If not, then maybe an airplane forum would yield better remarks.

Hi Eric, yup it's for a glider.

Best regards,

Richard

[2G]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:59:57 AM UTC-7, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I’m looking for a reliable, high quality, standalone artificial horizon that fits cleanly in a round hole (I’m not wanting a square barnacle that “fits� into a round hole).
>
> Does anyone have any flight experience with either of these:
>
> uAvionix AV-30:
> https://uavionix.com/products/av-30/
>
> RC Allen RCA2610:
> https://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2610%20information.pdf
>
> Any hands on info appreciated.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Richard

This video shows the AV-30 in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh9DiMPpKAA
Here is a pretty good review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8p3ncDYFiI
If all you want is an attitude indicator a better choice might be the AV-20..

I have the Garmin G5 PFD and love it. It differs from the AV-30 (besides being square) in that the airspeed and altitude displays are strips that move up and down. I use the altimeter as a vario for weak thermals. Also, you can very precisely control airspeed vs a steam gauge ASI. I also have the battery backup option on my G5 so it has a power source if the **** hits the fan, an important consideration for your PFD.

Tom

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:02:59 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:59:57 AM UTC-7, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I’m looking for a reliable, high quality, standalone artificial horizon that fits cleanly in a round hole (I’m not wanting a square barnacle that “fits� into a round hole).
> >
> > Does anyone have any flight experience with either of these:
> >
> > uAvionix AV-30:
> > https://uavionix.com/products/av-30/
> >
> > RC Allen RCA2610:
> > https://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2610%20information.pdf
> >
> > Any hands on info appreciated.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Richard
>
> This video shows the AV-30 in action:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh9DiMPpKAA
> Here is a pretty good review:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8p3ncDYFiI
> If all you want is an attitude indicator a better choice might be the AV-20.
>
> I have the Garmin G5 PFD and love it. It differs from the AV-30 (besides being square) in that the airspeed and altitude displays are strips that move up and down. I use the altimeter as a vario for weak thermals. Also, you can very precisely control airspeed vs a steam gauge ASI. I also have the battery backup option on my G5 so it has a power source if the **** hits the fan, an important consideration for your PFD.
>
> Tom

Is that battery backup built in to the G5 unit?

[Scott Williams[_2_]]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 1:45:04 PM UTC-5, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> On Thursday, 28 May 2020 18:31:31 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > Is this for a glider? If not, then maybe an airplane forum would yield better remarks.
>
> Hi Eric, yup it's for a glider.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Richard
I've a friend that has the g5 in a Texan, Great instrument! and if you get tired of it, resale will be very good.
Scott

[2G]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:39:27 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:02:59 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:59:57 AM UTC-7, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I’m looking for a reliable, high quality, standalone artificial horizon that fits cleanly in a round hole (I’m not wanting a square barnacle that “fits� into a round hole).
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any flight experience with either of these:
> > >
> > > uAvionix AV-30:
> > > https://uavionix.com/products/av-30/
> > >
> > > RC Allen RCA2610:
> > > https://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2610%20information.pdf
> > >
> > > Any hands on info appreciated.
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Richard
> >
> > This video shows the AV-30 in action:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh9DiMPpKAA
> > Here is a pretty good review:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8p3ncDYFiI
> > If all you want is an attitude indicator a better choice might be the AV-20.
> >
> > I have the Garmin G5 PFD and love it. It differs from the AV-30 (besides being square) in that the airspeed and altitude displays are strips that move up and down. I use the altimeter as a vario for weak thermals. Also, you can very precisely control airspeed vs a steam gauge ASI. I also have the battery backup option on my G5 so it has a power source if the **** hits the fan, an important consideration for your PFD.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Is that battery backup built in to the G5 unit?

It's an option that attaches to the back of the G5.

Tom

[2G]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 6:05:42 PM UTC-7, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 1:45:04 PM UTC-5, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> > On Thursday, 28 May 2020 18:31:31 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > Is this for a glider? If not, then maybe an airplane forum would yield better remarks.
> >
> > Hi Eric, yup it's for a glider.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Richard
> I've a friend that has the g5 in a Texan, Great instrument! and if you get tired of it, resale will be very good.
> Scott

LOL! It's my one and only PFD - can't get rid of it. However, I can highly recommend it.

Tom

[[email protected]]

https://www.kanardia.eu/product/horis/

[Dave Springford]

LX Navigation also produces what look to be good units in the AHRS field.

http://www.lxnavigation.com/iris-efis/

You can get either a 2 1/4 (57 mm) or 3 1/8 (80 mm) size for 990 Euro and 1090 Euro respectively.

These are completely stand-alone units with a back-up battery

They provide:
- a speed tape showing IAS, TAS and ground speed
- altitude tape also showing climb/descent rate
- heading indicator
- bearing to a selected destination
- QNH setting

All of these display options are user customizable to show as much or as little as you wish on the screen.

The full user manual can be downloaded here with all the details.

http://lxnavigation.com/downloads/manuals/LX_HUM_R1.pdf

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Richard Lancaster wrote on 5/28/2020 11:45 AM:
> On Thursday, 28 May 2020 18:31:31 UTC+1, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Is this for a glider? If not, then maybe an airplane forum would yield better remarks.
>
> Hi Eric, yup it's for a glider.

What are your plans that require such an excellent AH? And will there be a backup
for it?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Two things;

- You can advertise that you want to buy something glider related at glidersource.com.

- ClearNav has announced the release this year of a color vario with an AH.

[[email protected]]

> What are your plans that require such an excellent AH? And will there be a backup
> for it?

Why would anyone want an AHRS that is *not* high quality? That seems like the kind of instrument we either want to know we can trust or else it doesn't belong anywhere near our planes.

[[email protected]]

> https://www.kanardia.eu/product/horis/

FYI: I emailed the manufacturer and was quoted 990 Euros plus shipping.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 6/1/2020 4:46 AM:
>> What are your plans that require such an excellent AH? And will there be a backup
>> for it?
>
> Why would anyone want an AHRS that is *not* high quality? That seems like the kind of instrument we either want to know we can trust or else it doesn't belong anywhere near our planes.
>
Some of us would be happy with a $500 AH for emergency use that we might never
need, versus a $1000+ unit that we might never need. Richard appears to have far
more than emergency use in mind, so I think that story might be interesting to hear.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1

[Richard Lancaster[_2_]]

On Friday, 29 May 2020 00:02:59 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> I have the Garmin G5 PFD and love it. It differs from the AV-30 (besides being square) in that the airspeed and altitude displays are strips that move up and down. I use the altimeter as a vario for weak thermals. Also, you can very precisely control airspeed vs a steam gauge ASI.
>
> Tom

Interesting. I've never flown anything with that kind of strip/tape display, and have always looked at still images of such displays and thought they were unnecessarily confusing and failed to convey the big picture at a glance. You've enlightened me to their upside.

Cheers,

Richard

[2G]

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 2:05:46 PM UTC-7, Richard Lancaster wrote:
> On Friday, 29 May 2020 00:02:59 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > I have the Garmin G5 PFD and love it. It differs from the AV-30 (besides being square) in that the airspeed and altitude displays are strips that move up and down. I use the altimeter as a vario for weak thermals. Also, you can very precisely control airspeed vs a steam gauge ASI.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Interesting. I've never flown anything with that kind of strip/tape display, and have always looked at still images of such displays and thought they were unnecessarily confusing and failed to convey the big picture at a glance. You've enlightened me to their upside.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Richard

A PFD is a major paradigm shift on how information is presented to the pilot. A PFD really tightens the instrument scan, which is vital if you ever find yourself in actual IFR conditions. I encourage anyone considering putting an AHRS into their cockpit to take some instrument training. One of the best lessons I had while getting my power ticket was a night flight during overcast conditions (no Moon or stars or city lights to give you a hint of the horizon, and, just in case, the CFI put me under the hood). The CFI had me put the hood down so I couldn't see anything and he put the plane into an unusual attitude. He, then, gave control back to me and I had to recover from the unusual attitude using instruments alone. It went very well and definitely built my confidence that I could save myself from an unexpected IFR situation. Years ago, I actually had to during a wave flight (w/o any IFR instrumentation), but that's a story for another time.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Tomorrow is lift to 40k, pesky clouds at 4k.

With all these fancy instruments (ADSB, Flarm, GPS, AHRS, Flux cap), ought the US figure out a way to do cloud flyng without an Instrument rating and a power plane to keep it current?

[[email protected]]

ought the US figure out a way to do cloud flyng without an Instrument rating and a power plane to keep it current?

Sure. Just ignore the regulations and go for it. If you get busted, you made the call. Unless your aircraft is approved for night flight, or instrument flight and you have the proper clearances, ratings and permission, you are taking your chances with the authorities. My glider is only approved for Day VFR. And that's fine with me. I've flown in clouds, both with and without AHRS, and I simply don't enjoy it. AHRS is nice to have, and I might opt for the LXNav upgrade sometime, but not right now.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 6:34:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> ought the US figure out a way to do cloud flyng without an Instrument rating and a power plane to keep it current?
>
> Sure. Just ignore the regs...

Was thinking adjust the regs to make a way to do it safely with the new gadgets.

Was expecting much hotter flames. Interesting.

[Stephen Struthers]

At 23:34 05 June 2020, wrote:
> ought the US figure out a way to do cloud flyng without an
Instrument
>rati=
>ng and a power plane to keep it current?
>
>Sure. Just ignore the regulations and go for it. If you get busted, you
>mad=
>e the call. Unless your aircraft is approved for night flight, or
>instrumen=
>t flight and you have the proper clearances, ratings and permission,
you
>ar=
>e taking your chances with the authorities. My glider is only approved
for
>=
>Day VFR. And that's fine with me. I've flown in clouds, both with and
>witho=
>ut AHRS, and I simply don't enjoy it. AHRS is nice to have, and I
might
>opt=
> for the LXNav upgrade sometime, but not right now.
>
>

So out of interest how do you manage to stick to VFR rules when
soaring? If you thermal to could base technically you break the rules, if

you are wave flying often you are closer to cloud than VFR rules
stipulate?

[[email protected]]

> So out of interest how do you manage to stick to VFR rules when
> soaring?

I don't know the best way to adjust the regs. Clearly not VFR in a cloud. But not IFR airport stuff either. Perhaps some sort of in-between rating without the airport stuff, but with block clearance in controlled, but not too busy areas.

Might be a case of be careful what you wish for and the FAA has better stuff to worry about?

[[email protected]]

> So out of interest how do you manage to stick to VFR rules when
> soaring?

I use a highly technical method developed over years of trial and error. I LOOK OUT THE WINDOW! If the clouds are getting close, I descend or go somewhere else.

[Stephen Struthers]

At 13:22 06 June 2020, wrote:
>> So out of interest how do you manage to stick to VFR rules when
>> soaring?
>
>I use a highly technical method developed over years of trial and
error. I
>LOOK OUT THE WINDOW! If the clouds are getting close, I descend or
go
>somewhere else.
>

So you never thermal to cloud base? or Dolphin fly a cloud street?

[[email protected]]

> So you never thermal to cloud base? or Dolphin fly a cloud street?

It depends. VFR regs and cloud clearance limits are spelled out quite exactly. I prefer to maintain my legal right to not incriminate myself.

You seem to be looking for a way to do something that is not allowed by current regulations simply because the equipment is available. I have a car that will do 120+ mph. The speed limit is 75. If I get caught speeding, I pay the penalty. Arguing that the vehicle is capable of going that fast does not change the fact that speeding is a violation of the law or regulations.

I am not telling you what to do, if you ask the FAA for permission to fly in clouds in an aircraft rated for Day VFR and not fully IFR equipped, and not holding a current IFR certificate, you will probably be disappointed with their answer.

And getting them to change the regulations to allow something like this shouldn't consume more than the rest of your life.

[Dan Marotta]

Quite the opposite, Mark.Â* The FAA does not ask if one is rated or
properly (legally) equipped.Â* They accept and process an IFR request.Â*
If one does not get into trouble following a clearance, who's the
wiser?Â* On the other hand, bail out because you weren't capable, and
watch the stuff hit the fan.

On 6/6/2020 8:06 AM, wrote:
>> So you never thermal to cloud base? or Dolphin fly a cloud street?
> It depends. VFR regs and cloud clearance limits are spelled out quite exactly. I prefer to maintain my legal right to not incriminate myself.
>
> You seem to be looking for a way to do something that is not allowed by current regulations simply because the equipment is available. I have a car that will do 120+ mph. The speed limit is 75. If I get caught speeding, I pay the penalty. Arguing that the vehicle is capable of going that fast does not change the fact that speeding is a violation of the law or regulations.
>
> I am not telling you what to do, if you ask the FAA for permission to fly in clouds in an aircraft rated for Day VFR and not fully IFR equipped, and not holding a current IFR certificate, you will probably be disappointed with their answer.
>
> And getting them to change the regulations to allow something like this shouldn't consume more than the rest of your life.

--
Dan, 5J

[krasw]

On Saturday, 6 June 2020 16:45:05 UTC+3, Stephen Struthers wrote:
>
> So you never thermal to cloud base? or Dolphin fly a cloud street?

VFR vertical distance to cloud limit is being violated by every single glider pilot I have flown with (as a student, flight instructor, competition pilot, you name it). Please let's not pretend that such pilots exists. Yes, you shouldn't do it. Yes, everyone does. No, of course YOU don't.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 3:48:31 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> On Saturday, 6 June 2020 16:45:05 UTC+3, Stephen Struthers wrote:
> >
> > So you never thermal to cloud base? or Dolphin fly a cloud street?
>
> VFR vertical distance to cloud limit is being violated by every single glider pilot I have flown with (as a student, flight instructor, competition pilot, you name it). Please let's not pretend that such pilots exists. Yes, you shouldn't do it. Yes, everyone does. No, of course YOU don't.

But I thought cloud base was nirvana for a glider pilot. Now I can't even be happy there, **** you 2020.

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

Don't worry Jonathan, ATC still can't see "cloud base". (yet).

[cdeerinck]

I flew with a very excellent to-remain-unnamed pilot, who once flew 1000' above me when I thought I was at cloud base. Afterward, he said he wasn't in the cloud, because he could still see the ground directly below him. My rule for cloud base was/is that if I can't see the horizon, I'm in the cloud.

I agree that damn near every glider pilot breaks the cloud separation rules unless posting on a forum, simply because the lift is strongest there. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but it certainly happens.

All that being said, what is the actual definition of cloud base, that we are supposed to stay 1000' from? I am not trying to be a smart-ass, I would really like to know.

And since I am high-jacking Richard's thread, I will add this: If you do put a stand-alone ADHRS in your glider, you will not be able to fly contests with it. As IGC regs require an ADHR activation to be logged in the file. Again, no judgment here, just passing along information.

[2G]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:22:26 PM UTC-7, cdeerinck wrote:
> I flew with a very excellent to-remain-unnamed pilot, who once flew 1000' above me when I thought I was at cloud base. Afterward, he said he wasn't in the cloud, because he could still see the ground directly below him. My rule for cloud base was/is that if I can't see the horizon, I'm in the cloud.
>
> I agree that damn near every glider pilot breaks the cloud separation rules unless posting on a forum, simply because the lift is strongest there. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but it certainly happens.
>
> All that being said, what is the actual definition of cloud base, that we are supposed to stay 1000' from? I am not trying to be a smart-ass, I would really like to know.
>
> And since I am high-jacking Richard's thread, I will add this: If you do put a stand-alone ADHRS in your glider, you will not be able to fly contests with it. As IGC regs require an ADHR activation to be logged in the file.. Again, no judgment here, just passing along information.

You are absolutely right: do not install an AHRS if you are a part of the 1-2% of glider pilots who fly contests (or be able to remove it). On the other hand, if you plan on flying in wave you should have an AHRS. I fly a motorglider, which really isn't competitive in contests, so I prefer the capability that a PFD gives me. At some point, the contest committee will see the safety benefits provided by an AHRS. If you did actual cloud flying in a contest it would be very obvious in the altitude traces.

Tom

[Mike N.]

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2001/july/flight-training-magazine/over-the-top

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

cdeerinck wrote on 6/9/2020 8:22 PM:
> I flew with a very excellent to-remain-unnamed pilot, who once flew 1000' above me when I thought I was at cloud base. Afterward, he said he wasn't in the cloud, because he could still see the ground directly below him. My rule for cloud base was/is that if I can't see the horizon, I'm in the cloud.
>
> I agree that damn near every glider pilot breaks the cloud separation rules unless posting on a forum, simply because the lift is strongest there. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but it certainly happens.
>
> All that being said, what is the actual definition of cloud base, that we are supposed to stay 1000' from? I am not trying to be a smart-ass, I would really like to know.
>
> And since I am high-jacking Richard's thread, I will add this: If you do put a stand-alone ADHRS in your glider, you will not be able to fly contests with it. As IGC regs require an ADHR activation to be logged in the file. Again, no judgment here, just passing along information.

A stand-along ADHRS is easily dealt with by contest pilots: remove it from the
panel. It's the integrated ADHRS (part of the flight computer) that may pose a
problem, as it must be rendered unusable to the contest director's satisfaction.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1