View Full Version : Landout at Class C or D tower-controlled airport?
Charles Ethridge
May 30th 20, 08:47 PM
Hi all.
I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
Ben
Tony[_5_]
May 30th 20, 09:54 PM
I have transited several times and landed once at the local Class D airport.. I stopped at a taxiway turnoff then pushed the glider past the hold short line then contacted ground control and "taxied" to the ramp. This airport is a contract tower and they are happy for any action that increases their traffic count.
I haven't had a chance to land at the Class C airport nearby but have talked to approach control many times when soaring nearby. My glider is transponder equipped.
Most controllers will have a conniption if you spring this on them. At places like ELM, ITH, LAL they have an idea what you're up to. For sure, class C requires a transponder of you're going to be doing some 'splainin'.
I monitor the freq and get an idea what's happening before I get close. ATIS/ASOS earns you points. If there are multiple runways and you can plan to avoid tying things up and roll/push clear quickly that would be awesome - e..g. volunteer to use an inactive runway and hold short of active.
BOW controller told a glider pilot to land or go away when he called to say he wanted to struggle through the airspace. Group response the next day was "how dare he", etc., etc. But class D is reserved for aircraft arriving and departing. Read the reg. If a controller lets you grind around and escape they may really be bending over backwards...
Getting to the ramp - at LAL they sent an airport ops guy in a pickup. I had short towline with me - a good idea to carry - and he pulled me to the ramp. It was close enough to push, but hey, I made a new friend.
Hopefully your speaker is loud enough to hear standing outside the ship with the canopy closed. You can tell ground that you can follow taxi instructions but have to stop and get to the microphone to read them back. Handheld even better in this case.
If you're flying something too large to shove by yourself, ask them if they can contact FBO or airport staff to assist.
It's true class D tower operators don't have to let you transition, but its often in their best interest to do so. In a past life as a CFI (in a -172) we gave many sight seeing and introductory flights that required a Class D transition or lengthy detour.
One busy day I was denied access. What this new controller failed to realize was this forced me to fly around the airspace and through the final aproach course of her only ILS at a busy corporate airport. Out side of the airspace I could do what ever I wanted and didn't have to respond to radio calls. Had I been cleared directly over head or through a distant part of the airspace life would have been better for all.
Now, if you're trying to land they can't deny you for being a glider but they can ask you to standby for work load reasons (which for us is a non-starter of course). Airmanship would dictate that you had a plan once on the ground to not impede traffic and get to the FBO with out tower assistance. Landing a glider is busy enough with out trying to manage all that last minute. I'd need a serious reason to head for our of our local class D relief airports.
Glider pilots don't get much experience with radio etiquette. There's a bit of a dance you must do with controllers, behave professionally and they'll let you play, stumble in blathering all over and you'll get the cold shoulder.
Roy B.
May 31st 20, 01:36 AM
I have had lots of experience with this flying gliders in New England where there is much controlled airspace. I have found that a lot depends on whether you sound (on the radio) like you know what you are doing. If you do, they seem to take the glider traffic in stride. If you sound like you are in crisis mode they will help you - but you are not welcome there as they will likely disrupt all the other traffic to get you in.
A crisp professional initial call up indicating that you have the most recent ATIS information and a statement that you "can follow their traffic" (meaning you don't have to cut in front of somebody) goes a long way toward making you welcome.
Don't ask the tower for anything that might put them "on the spot" (like asking to land in the grass or on a taxi way) and do your utmost to roll clear of the active runway.
Transiting class C airspace with a transponder is now much easier because they will usually let you keep the 1202 code and you don't have to fumble with a new one.
My two favorite experiences were at Aspen CO being sandwiched between a Lear 35 ahead of me in the pattern and a Dash-8 behind me, and at Lebanon NH when we had to land on long distance ferry flight. Both the tug and the glider landed - and they let us launch again out of there.
Great guys in both places.
ROY
jfitch
May 31st 20, 02:02 AM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
I fly out of Truckee, which since 2017 is Class D with a tower active during normal soaring hours. Every glider operation is under tower control. Truckee has become a busy airport, with lots of biz jet traffic. We make it work, tower personnel are trained to deal with it mostly, and mostly because we were a "pre-existing nuisance". Part of the SOPs is to let the tower know as you enter the airspace that you are a glider with intentions to land. Sometimes we are asked to loiter and wait for jets or big twins in the pattern. Sometimes you have to tell them no, I can't do that. They *greatly* appreciate it if you manage to roll clear of the active runway (made much easier for me by the steerable tailwheel). If I was landing at a Class D unfamiliar with glider ops, I would remind them that I have a fixed decent rate, and may require assistance to clear the runway, specifically have a truck standing by with a rope. Even if they balk at the idea, you've warned them about what is going to happen.
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
Many moons ago, I had to land out at the 'Wheeling-Ohio Co.' airport in WVa, which at the time was towered - god only knew why! The controller allowed me to try to climb out if I stayed in a particular sector but when that didn't work out, cleared me to land on the not active runway and asked to stop short of the intersection with the active one. After I stopped, he asked me to contact 'Ground' - which turned out to be the same guy - for further assistance. He sent a pickup truck with a rope to get me to the ramp. When I walked into the terminal building, I asked a guy with a mop and a bucket where the restrooms were and that voice sounded awfully familiar .... ;-)
When our club hosted the SSA convention in Greenville, SC, I flew rides in our transponder-equipped G103 out of GMU, right next to the convention center. GMU is located under the class C of GSP and is towered. It was kind of interesting to be sequenced in with the other traffic and cleared to land on the shorter cross-wind runway.
As others mentioned, if you come across like you know what you are doing and if you are not trying to land at LAX, the controllers will work with you.
Uli
'AS'
Back in the late 1970's, on Memorial Day weekend, a friend flew his Janus (with me in back) from Estrella, AZ to Gillespie Field outside San Diego. Last thermal was around Mt Laguna or so and I had loads of fun keeping track of our exact position with only a Sectional Chart, since it looked like we would just make it.
We arrived a bit above pattern altitude, and my professional airline pilot friend, just used his N-number to identify when making the initial call. Tower told us to report downwind abeam the tower, so we did. I think that as we turned base was when the controller realized we were a glider :-)
He told Tower that we'd roll to the far end of 27 so we could push the ship the few hundred feet to the FBO nearby. A complete non-event.
Flying from Minden around 1990, I got low west of Reno, so contacted the tower as I tried to get up and away. Couldn't find a thermal, so the controller cleared me to land on the taxiway parallel to 25. I think they were used to seeing gliders :-)
When landing at a big airport, whether with or without a tower, I try to scope it out before deciding where I'll land. If there's someone on the ground (or the tower), I'll ask about landing on the ramp or taxiway near tiedowns if it looks safe from above. Keeps me off the runway and simplifies parking the glider. Big airports may have several parking areas, but maybe only one has convenient trailer access.
Another option at many big airports is the high speed taxiway "off ramp" . Fly the first phase of the final approach along the edge opposite the turnoff. Then when lined up with the taxiway, make a small turn and touch down on the runway, then roll out down the taxiway to a place where I'll be out of the way once stopped. Or touch down 100' or so short of the turnoff while aligned with the runway, then turn while still carrying some energy to get clear of the runway. in either case, this provides a few seconds to take a look at the taxiway to confirm it's safe to turn. If there are obstructions, then get stopped ASAP, jump out and push the glider clear.
As pilot in command, you have the right to say "unable" to instructions you don't like, and offer an alternate plan. Be concise and professional on the radio, so know how to talk to ATC properly. Loads of online resources these days to listen and learn how to do it correctly.
A friend once declared an emergency so he could land at a military airport. Tower asked him to "state nature of the emergency".
His response: "Zero fuel". :-)
5Z
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
You shouldn't think twice about landing at a tower-controlled A/P, but you should contact them by radio FIRST. That said, there is a procedure to land there in the event of a radio failure. I am not going to discuss the procedure here, so look it up. BTW, I have done it. Bottom line: ATC's job is to support aviation of all sorts, but they EXPECT you to follow the rules and there are consequences for not doing so. Also, I am assuming that you are equipped with the required transponder for entering this airspace. Of course, you can always declare an emergency (by radio) and they WILL accommodate you.
Tom
If you ask to land on a taxiway, volunteer that it's "at my own risk". On an apron, too - that sounds especially dicey unléss you've got it all scoped out prior to the flight.
I've done it with an interested, adaptable controller at a not too busy class D.
Communicate. Try to give the controller a chance to work you in. If he's running patterns on the South side of the runway, I wonder if he'd let you come in close on the North side so you are close when he duck in to land. He's not going to be used to sequencing gliders, so you might get some latitude if you can provide a clear safe plan that works with his flow. He may ask, but he's not going to make you try to violate physics ('say unable') if there's a way.
Once he gives you his runway, don't waste time, get down quick, and behind the hold short line. Once I figured out I had put 2 airplanes waiting, I came in at 100knots, landed at the chosen exit after he changed the exit while I was rolling, got out in 20 seconds and cleared the hold short in another 20. Still probably had the runway for 5 minutes which is a long time.
Be sure to say thank you and carry a short tow rope so you can clear the ramp with help.
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 8:36:57 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> I have had lots of experience with this flying gliders in New England where there is much controlled airspace. I have found that a lot depends on whether you sound (on the radio) like you know what you are doing. If you do, they seem to take the glider traffic in stride. If you sound like you are in crisis mode they will help you - but you are not welcome there as they will likely disrupt all the other traffic to get you in.
>
> A crisp professional initial call up indicating that you have the most recent ATIS information and a statement that you "can follow their traffic" (meaning you don't have to cut in front of somebody) goes a long way toward making you welcome.
>
> Don't ask the tower for anything that might put them "on the spot" (like asking to land in the grass or on a taxi way) and do your utmost to roll clear of the active runway.
>
> Transiting class C airspace with a transponder is now much easier because they will usually let you keep the 1202 code and you don't have to fumble with a new one.
>
> My two favorite experiences were at Aspen CO being sandwiched between a Lear 35 ahead of me in the pattern and a Dash-8 behind me, and at Lebanon NH when we had to land on long distance ferry flight. Both the tug and the glider landed - and they let us launch again out of there.
> Great guys in both places.
> ROY
Many years ago when I got my first glider, and before I had much XC experience, I landed out at a towered airport on my 3rd or 4th flight. A far-away thunderstorm, unbeknownst to me, shut down the lift over a wide area, and I didn't have the smarts to head back to home field while I still had the altitude (9000 AGL!). Instead I searched in vain for lift near this towered airport. As I descended down the "cone of confusion" closer to the airport, I called the tower on the radio. They heard me once, but afterwards the ancient radio (or battery?) died. Since they knew I was there, and there was no traffic, I kept on searching for lift (not in the approach path of the active runway), but eventually had to land. Chose the inactive runway to stay out of the way of the nonexistent traffic. Better yet, I thought, I can land on the grass along that runway, and really be out of their way. After touchdown, the intersection with the active runway, and lights alongside it, seemed to come up fast. With lots of wheel brake I stopped a few feet before those lights. Turned out that grass strip was 800 feet long, and I wasn't yet practiced in short landings in that glider. After that I walked to the tower and had a chat with the controllers, no problem. Later got an aero-retrieve out of there. Moral of the story: land on the runway!
Also moral of the story, learn to land your bird in 800 ft if it is capable.
Dan
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 31st 20, 07:44 PM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
It depends. Another pilot and I landed a N4D at Twin Falls International. They just asked us to back taxi (push) on the active to the taxiway and contact ground. Ground just had us push to the tie downs.
Most controllers are ignorant of what you are capable of. Consequently, if you can suggest a plan, they will likely usse it. This requires you to know your man/machine capabilities and what is transpiring in the airport environment.
.. Consult ASOS and monitor tower/approach to get the picture. Start listening and communicating early so you maximize your flexibility and to develop the best solution for everyone. If you are even remotely likely to land there, establish comm’s. Knowing the local winds may help you climb away.
As has been stated, when cleared to land, expedite and clear the active ASAP. Landing or taxiing on the grass infields is a poor choice. That level-appearing grass is likely to hide many hazards like ditches and runway markers. Wait at the hold-short for further instructions. Tell Tower/Ground what you need and are capable of. A tow rope is extremely valuable. Ensure that the rope longer than the ship’s wingspan! Don’t leave the ship unattended until secure.
Don’t be a burden and be good guest. Thank everyone repeatedly for their assistance.
> Ensure that the rope longer than the ship’s wingspan!
That's a good point, the nice ground guy driving the pickup has likely never towed a glider before. There was a scary moment which a longer rope would have helped.
Andrzej Kobus
June 1st 20, 01:09 AM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
Worth noting thing have changed in 2020:
The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:
Class A, B, and C airspace;
Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
Towing a glider with a rope less than the wingspan (plus some) is asking damage, even with experienced crew. Downhill, sudden stops, too fast. No room for error with a short rope.
son_of_flubber
June 1st 20, 04:40 AM
Seems like nowadays, the best place to land a glider at a Class B airport would be in the farther reaches of a long-term car parking lot. Would there be enough space between the light poles for a 15M ship?
Tango Whisky
June 1st 20, 07:15 AM
It's actually more than half wingspan.
> It's actually more than half wingspan.
If you try to land between the poles, that distance will become your NEW wingspan.
Rob[_10_]
June 1st 20, 02:40 PM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
I just had this happen.
Me: "Tower, Glider Nxxxx"
Twr:"Glider Nxxxx, go ahead"
Me: "Glider Nxxxx, 7 miles SW of the field at x,xxx feet looking for lift. If I can't find any, I plan on landing there."
Twr: <they'll give you the weather> say runway requested.
Me: "Hopefully none, but will keep you posted and monitor tower frequency."
Twr: "Roger. Keep us posted."
About 10 minutes later...
Me: "Tower, glider Nxxxx is climbing out of x,xxx in good lift. Will be departing the area to <wherever>. Thanks for your help."
Twr: "Glider Nxxxxx, frequency change approved, have a nice flight."
It's as simple as that.
As for landing out, I landed out at an uncontrolled airport. I stopped right by a taxiway, got out of my glider and pushed it past the hold short line, turned it around and called for the aero retrieve. Again, nonevent. Takes a little coordination if there's traffic to get you onto the runway, hook up and go, but it's really a non-event.
Rob[_10_]
June 1st 20, 02:47 PM
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 5:09:12 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
> >
> > Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
> >
> > Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
> >
> > If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
> >
> > Ben
>
> Worth noting thing have changed in 2020:
>
> The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:
>
> Class A, B, and C airspace;
> Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
> Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
> Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
> Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
Gliders are exempt from ADS-B requirements.
Come on, guys! Land in the airport auto parking lot? You got to be kidding? They expect you to land on the runways and taxiways or maybe even on the ramp. If you land in the auto parking lot it will surely be reported as an aircraft accident with all that that implies, crash crew, security, etc.
I remember a guy that got low near George AFB, in the Mohave Desert. He figured that landing on the runway or ramp would cause a big disruption, so he landed on a road instead. Problem was, it was the road to the Bomb Dump! He was met by Security Police and they figured they had a apprehended a saboteur!
Land where your are expected to land, at least you’ll be greeted by fellow aviators!
JJ
A line of thunderstorms prevented a return to Moriarty a few years ago so I elected to land at Santa Fe (Class D). The tower cleared me on to RWY 20. On rollout, the Tower inquired whether I would need help to clear the runway. Simultaneously, I realized I had forgotten to dump my water ballast. I was familiar with the taxiways, having done an airshow with Bob Carlton some time before, so I replied that I would take Taxiway F to the ramp. Had plenty of energy, so I made the ramp and stopped a couple hundred feet from the Tower. As I was getting out of the cockpit, I realized I had a perfect opportunity.
I waved at the guys in the Tower, and they waved back. Then I turned around, pretended to fiddle with my zipper and stood there acting like I was just peeing on the ramp. Opening the dump valves, I could only imagine their outrage turning to consternation as 30 gallons made a quite impressive puddle on the concrete.
A few minutes later, two laughing Tower personnel came out to help me push the glider to a parking spot and tie it down. They thought the situation was hilarious.
The next year, I was overflying SAF at 16,000 and I gave the Tower a courtesy call on the radio. They acknowledged, and a few minutes later transmitted, "628 Charlie Alpha, did you land here last year?" I replied in the affirmative, and they said, "We still talk about that."
son_of_flubber
June 1st 20, 04:47 PM
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:50:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> If you land in the auto parking lot it will surely be reported as an aircraft accident with all that that implies, crash crew, security, etc.
Part of the plan would be to get a landing clearance from ATC for the long term parking lot.
jfitch
June 1st 20, 05:23 PM
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 6:47:52 AM UTC-7, Rob wrote:
> On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 5:09:12 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > > Hi all.
> > >
> > > I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
> > >
> > > Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
> > >
> > > Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
> > >
> > > If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
> > >
> > > Ben
> >
> > Worth noting thing have changed in 2020:
> >
> > The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:
> >
> > Class A, B, and C airspace;
> > Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
> > Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
> > Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
> > Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
>
> Gliders are exempt from ADS-B requirements.
It was my understanding that gliders are exempt from SOME ADS-B requirements. They are not exempt from the Class C airspace requirement.
Sean Franke
June 1st 20, 09:00 PM
On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 6:09:12 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
> >
> > Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
> >
> > Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
> >
> > If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
> >
> > Ben
>
> Worth noting thing have changed in 2020:
>
> The FAA requires ADS-B Out capability in the continental United States, in the ADS-B rule airspace designated by FAR 91.225:
>
> Class A, B, and C airspace;
> Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
> Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
> Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
> Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
In regards to class E airspace:
(4) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface
(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
This is the part that may exclude gliders.
Sean Franke
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> > I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
> >
> > Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
> >
> > Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
> >
> > If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
> >
> > Ben
>
> I just had this happen.
>
> Me: "Tower, Glider Nxxxx"
> Twr:"Glider Nxxxx, go ahead"
> Me: "Glider Nxxxx, 7 miles SW of the field at x,xxx feet looking for lift.. If I can't find any, I plan on landing there."
> Twr: <they'll give you the weather> say runway requested.
> Me: "Hopefully none, but will keep you posted and monitor tower frequency.."
> Twr: "Roger. Keep us posted."
>
> About 10 minutes later...
>
> Me: "Tower, glider Nxxxx is climbing out of x,xxx in good lift. Will be departing the area to <wherever>. Thanks for your help."
> Twr: "Glider Nxxxxx, frequency change approved, have a nice flight."
>
> It's as simple as that.
>
> As for landing out, I landed out at an uncontrolled airport. I stopped right by a taxiway, got out of my glider and pushed it past the hold short line, turned it around and called for the aero retrieve. Again, nonevent. Takes a little coordination if there's traffic to get you onto the runway, hook up and go, but it's really a non-event.
I had this happen a couple of years ago: I was getting low, so headed to the small, uncontrolled, single-runway airport that we often land at when we can't make it back to our gliderport from the mountains. Saw that another glider has landed there already and was parked near the South end of the runway. There isn't a lot of room there to the side of the runway, so it was jutting into the runway a bit.
Then on the airport frequency I heard a powered plane, a Grumman Cheetah IIRC, announce they're in the pattern to land to the North. So I tell them on the radio to watch out for the glider parked on the South end of the runway.
Now the (light) wind was from the South, and it's a bit downhill to the North, and Cheetahs are fast but don't slow down well. So they approach too hot and go around. Meanwhile I am scratching at about 1200 AGL watching the show. They make a big pattern and several minutes later return for another try. Same result. And I am slowly getting lower.
On the third try they manage to stop at the North end of the runway, after a long ground roll. By then I'm at 800 AGL. So I say on the radio: Grumman xxxx, glider yyyyy will be landing to the South over your head, please stay where you are. So they do, and I do, landing long and joining the other glider pilot at the South end, waiting for aero-retrieve.
Another day at the airport...
Kristin Nowell
June 2nd 20, 01:48 PM
Gliders without adsb must conduct operations
(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area;
(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
You can request ATC permission to deviate from these requirements; " For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with ADS-B Out, the request must be made at least 1 hour before the proposed operation" (91.225g2).
I doubt that this one hour requirement would be strictly enforced in a land out situation!
On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 5:48:20 AM UTC-7, Kristin Nowell wrote:
> Gliders without adsb must conduct operations
>
> (1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area;
>
> (2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
>
> You can request ATC permission to deviate from these requirements; " For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with ADS-B Out, the request must be made at least 1 hour before the proposed operation" (91.225g2).
>
> I doubt that this one hour requirement would be strictly enforced in a land out situation!
You can get any of these restrictions waived by declaring an emergency, but you will likely have to explain to an FAA examiner how you got yourself into the emergency in the first place. The examiner probably will not have dealt with gliders before, so you will have to explain all of the basics, including what thermals are and how unpredictable they are.
Tom
Dan Marotta
June 2nd 20, 05:10 PM
Well done!
I had similar back in the 70s in my Air Force days.Â* I was flying a
contact check ride in a T-33a and my final maneuver was to be a short
field landing.Â* As I approached the base, the tower cleared an RC-135
for take off and he taxied out forgetting to release his parking brake
and resulting in several blown tires.Â* He shut down on the runway to
await maintenance and tower asked, "Muff 91, what are your intentions?"Â*
I replied, "Muff 91 will land opposite direction", to which I received a
"Stand by" from the tower.
As I watched, the entire crew of the 135 bailed out and ran for the
sidelines, after which I was cleared to land.Â* I landed on the numbers,
opposite direction, on the 13,500' runway and took the first taxiway to
clear.Â* Just one more "war story"...
On 6/1/2020 5:52 PM, wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:40:38 AM UTC-4, Rob wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 12:47:41 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
>>> Hi all.
>>>
>>> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>>>
>>> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>>>
>>> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>>>
>>> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>>>
>>> Ben
>> I just had this happen.
>>
>> Me: "Tower, Glider Nxxxx"
>> Twr:"Glider Nxxxx, go ahead"
>> Me: "Glider Nxxxx, 7 miles SW of the field at x,xxx feet looking for lift. If I can't find any, I plan on landing there."
>> Twr: <they'll give you the weather> say runway requested.
>> Me: "Hopefully none, but will keep you posted and monitor tower frequency."
>> Twr: "Roger. Keep us posted."
>>
>> About 10 minutes later...
>>
>> Me: "Tower, glider Nxxxx is climbing out of x,xxx in good lift. Will be departing the area to <wherever>. Thanks for your help."
>> Twr: "Glider Nxxxxx, frequency change approved, have a nice flight."
>>
>> It's as simple as that.
>>
>> As for landing out, I landed out at an uncontrolled airport. I stopped right by a taxiway, got out of my glider and pushed it past the hold short line, turned it around and called for the aero retrieve. Again, nonevent. Takes a little coordination if there's traffic to get you onto the runway, hook up and go, but it's really a non-event.
> I had this happen a couple of years ago: I was getting low, so headed to the small, uncontrolled, single-runway airport that we often land at when we can't make it back to our gliderport from the mountains. Saw that another glider has landed there already and was parked near the South end of the runway. There isn't a lot of room there to the side of the runway, so it was jutting into the runway a bit.
>
> Then on the airport frequency I heard a powered plane, a Grumman Cheetah IIRC, announce they're in the pattern to land to the North. So I tell them on the radio to watch out for the glider parked on the South end of the runway.
>
> Now the (light) wind was from the South, and it's a bit downhill to the North, and Cheetahs are fast but don't slow down well. So they approach too hot and go around. Meanwhile I am scratching at about 1200 AGL watching the show. They make a big pattern and several minutes later return for another try. Same result. And I am slowly getting lower.
>
> On the third try they manage to stop at the North end of the runway, after a long ground roll. By then I'm at 800 AGL. So I say on the radio: Grumman xxxx, glider yyyyy will be landing to the South over your head, please stay where you are. So they do, and I do, landing long and joining the other glider pilot at the South end, waiting for aero-retrieve.
>
> Another day at the airport...
--
Dan, 5J
John Silverberg
June 3rd 20, 02:38 AM
On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:47:41 PM UTC-4, Charles Ethridge wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I've done thousands of landings in all kinds of airplanes at tower-controlled airports (now called Class B, C and D), but I've never seen a glider land at one.
>
> Does ATC frown upon this (unless one declares an emergency in which case you have a new problem) or to they take this in stride and accommodate us gliders as an unusual but accepted part of their workday?
>
> Faced with the choice of this or a field, what would insurance say if I broke the glider landing in the field? Might insurance deny my claim since there was a perfectly good tower-controlled airport within gliding distance?
>
> If this is an accepted practice at tower-controlled fields, how do you get the glider off the taxiway? Do they have an FBO come out and tow you off?
>
> Ben
Hi,
I operate a self launch ship out of a Class D airport (Worcester, MA) which has class C and B airspace nearby. I totally agree with ROY's comments regarding operating in or around controlled airspace. Using proper phraseology, knowing what you need and having a plan before contacting ATC will make a huge difference when you need ATC's help or a possible landout at a C or D airport. Making the first radio call low, straight in to the primary runway with possible conflicting high speed traffic will make the pilot (and every glider pilot to follow) very unpopular. If possible, do some homework on the class C and D airports you might land out at or pass through near your home airport, knowing the airport layout could save lots of confusion at a critical time for you and ATC. Call ATC EARLY, let them know where you are and that you might need to land, expect a discreet transponder code. If possible use the secondary runway. At my airport nearly all traffic uses runway 29, I almost always land on runway 33 and make sure I roll through the intersection to the taxiway so I don't disrupt the normal traffic. Do not ask to land on the grass or a taxiway, ATC considers this a very abnormal or emergency operation. If you can't roll out to a taxiway consider getting out of the cockpit and moving your ship well back from the runway, the runway will be considered 'open' if you can get back beyond the 'safety area' (equivilent of the hold short lines). Expect airport authority or police to show up PROMPTLY, the FBO can usually get escorted to help. Many glider pilots have limited experience communicating with ATC and feel uncomfortable with it, the answer.. do it. Consider getting flight following for a while on your next flight it will sharpen your ATC comm skills and improve the soaring community's relationship with your local ATC. You might have to explain stopping to thermal, but they seem to appreciate gaining the knowledge. Overall I enjoy operating out of a Class D airport and always call about 20 minutes out to get an idea of traffic, ATC knows that once I'm in the pattern I'm committed to land and won't deploy the engine. I have yet to have a conflict in my 4th season and many flights although I have scurried in to land or found another thermal to delay my landing to accommodate other traffic.
Everyone seems to know that most accidents happen during the landing phase. However, did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings? That's really incredible when you consider how rarely we land off-airport.
Since off-airport landings are high-risk, I'll always land at a suitable airport if I have the choice. The tower will almost certainly be accomodating. If not, I'd rather declare an emergency, than make a completely avoidable landout.
By the way, someone mentioned keeping a tow rope in the glider. I think that's a great idea! I was just admiring how compact a length of 2mm Spectra is. I think I'm going to add some to my landout kit.
Roy B.
June 3rd 20, 01:10 PM
David:
What is the source or reference for this statement?
"did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings"
I've studied glider accidents for years and have not seen that - unless you are calling low level thermalling stall/spin ins, ridge terrain strikes, and similar accidents as "off airport landings"
Admittedly, a properly executed pattern,approach and landing into a soft field can cause glider damage - but a fatality? Those (in the hundreds of cases I have studied) are quite rare. What I have seen is that the real killer in our sport is low level thermalling - especially in wind/gusty conditions. But that's not a "landing accident".
ROY
But that's not a "landing accident".
Anymore than dying from cancer is a COVID death if you tested positive.
On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 11:47:33 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 9:50:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > If you land in the auto parking lot it will surely be reported as an aircraft accident with all that that implies, crash crew, security, etc.
>
> Part of the plan would be to get a landing clearance from ATC for the long term parking lot.
They would never clear you to land there. It is not their airspace.
Dumbest idea I have seen here in a while.
UH
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
June 3rd 20, 05:55 PM
wrote on 6/3/2020 5:31 AM:
> But that's not a "landing accident".
>
> Anymore than dying from cancer is a COVID death if you tested positive.
Not Washington State.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:10:30 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> David:
> What is the source or reference for this statement?
>
> "did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings"
>
> I've studied glider accidents for years and have not seen that - unless you are calling low level thermalling stall/spin ins, ridge terrain strikes, and similar accidents as "off airport landings"
>
> Admittedly, a properly executed pattern,approach and landing into a soft field can cause glider damage - but a fatality? Those (in the hundreds of cases I have studied) are quite rare. What I have seen is that the real killer in our sport is low level thermalling - especially in wind/gusty conditions. But that's not a "landing accident".
> ROY
My observation came from Soaring Safety Foundation Safety Reports. In most years, we have slightly more on-airport landing accidents than off-airport. In more recent times, there have been a few years where off-airport landing accidents actually exceeded on-airport accidents. For example in 2017/2018, the SSF reported that "more landing accidents occurred during off airport landings (62%) than landings at the home field (38%). https://www.soaringsafety.org/accidentprev/SSF_2018_annual_report.pdf
SSF statistics aside, I think it's pretty intuitive that landing at an airport is safer. Therefore, I'd always choose a suitable runway (wide enough!) over an off-airport landing.
I think that many glider pilots are unfamiliar and uncomfortable with towered airports. Please know that public airports are there for all pilots, even glider pilots, to use. You won't discover a ditch or fence on short final.... you won't damage any crops... you won't have any trouble getting the glider out.
Roy B.
June 3rd 20, 07:39 PM
David,
I agree with you that "intuitively, landing at an airport is safer than a land out" but the reason I challenged your statement that ""did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings?" is the risk that the new pilots in this forum may think that stretching a marginal glide to an airport is "safer" than a properly executed off field landing. And it's not safer at all.
What the data (and particularly the 2018 SSF data cited in your last post)shows is that most of the off field landing accidents were landings that were rushed: rushed because the pilot was thermalling low and made a last second effort to land, or rushed because at the last minute the pilot realized he was not going to make the home airport, rushed because the pilot changed field selection at the last minute, or rushed because the pilot got low and had no "plan B" . Two of the landings were on highways with resulting damage from road signs and barriers. 3 were tree strikes during botched rushed landings.
That's not an indictment of off field landings per se (which when properly planned and executed are quite safe). Rather its an indictment of poor and late aeronautical decision making.
Let's not give the newbies the impression that they should be scared of a well planned and carefully executed off field landing - in favor of an even scarier marginal glide back to the airport.
ROY
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 10:36:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:10:30 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > David:
> > What is the source or reference for this statement?
> >
> > "did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings"
> >
> > I've studied glider accidents for years and have not seen that - unless you are calling low level thermalling stall/spin ins, ridge terrain strikes, and similar accidents as "off airport landings"
> >
> > Admittedly, a properly executed pattern,approach and landing into a soft field can cause glider damage - but a fatality? Those (in the hundreds of cases I have studied) are quite rare. What I have seen is that the real killer in our sport is low level thermalling - especially in wind/gusty conditions. But that's not a "landing accident".
> > ROY
>
> My observation came from Soaring Safety Foundation Safety Reports. In most years, we have slightly more on-airport landing accidents than off-airport. In more recent times, there have been a few years where off-airport landing accidents actually exceeded on-airport accidents. For example in 2017/2018, the SSF reported that "more landing accidents occurred during off airport landings (62%) than landings at the home field (38%). https://www.soaringsafety.org/accidentprev/SSF_2018_annual_report.pdf
>
> SSF statistics aside, I think it's pretty intuitive that landing at an airport is safer. Therefore, I'd always choose a suitable runway (wide enough!) over an off-airport landing.
>
> I think that many glider pilots are unfamiliar and uncomfortable with towered airports. Please know that public airports are there for all pilots, even glider pilots, to use. You won't discover a ditch or fence on short final... you won't damage any crops... you won't have any trouble getting the glider out.
David, thanks, that's an interesting statistic. Is it for fatalities, or any accident? I suspect that a higher accident rate for off-field landing is not so much due to the unknown surface, than to the extra demands and stress on the pilot. In that case, a landing at a strange airport may induce a similar level of stress.
jfitch
June 3rd 20, 10:11 PM
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 1:51:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 10:36:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 5:10:30 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > David:
> > > What is the source or reference for this statement?
> > >
> > > "did you know that nearly 50% of glider landing fatalities happen during off-airport landings"
> > >
> > > I've studied glider accidents for years and have not seen that - unless you are calling low level thermalling stall/spin ins, ridge terrain strikes, and similar accidents as "off airport landings"
> > >
> > > Admittedly, a properly executed pattern,approach and landing into a soft field can cause glider damage - but a fatality? Those (in the hundreds of cases I have studied) are quite rare. What I have seen is that the real killer in our sport is low level thermalling - especially in wind/gusty conditions. But that's not a "landing accident".
> > > ROY
> >
> > My observation came from Soaring Safety Foundation Safety Reports. In most years, we have slightly more on-airport landing accidents than off-airport. In more recent times, there have been a few years where off-airport landing accidents actually exceeded on-airport accidents. For example in 2017/2018, the SSF reported that "more landing accidents occurred during off airport landings (62%) than landings at the home field (38%). https://www.soaringsafety.org/accidentprev/SSF_2018_annual_report.pdf
> >
> > SSF statistics aside, I think it's pretty intuitive that landing at an airport is safer. Therefore, I'd always choose a suitable runway (wide enough!) over an off-airport landing.
> >
> > I think that many glider pilots are unfamiliar and uncomfortable with towered airports. Please know that public airports are there for all pilots, even glider pilots, to use. You won't discover a ditch or fence on short final... you won't damage any crops... you won't have any trouble getting the glider out.
>
>
>
> David, thanks, that's an interesting statistic. Is it for fatalities, or any accident? I suspect that a higher accident rate for off-field landing is not so much due to the unknown surface, than to the extra demands and stress on the pilot. In that case, a landing at a strange airport may induce a similar level of stress.
The problem is, an off field landing is always going to involve extra stress and many unknowns, unless it is one you have landed at before (recently) or have at least walked. I've no doubt this contributes to failure count, but it is part and parcel of the process. The surface is only one of a miriad of unknowns: is it long enough? is there turbulence or wind shear? what direction is the wind? is it downhill or uphill or side hill? are there wires? is there berm or higher than expected vegetation? All of these concerns are absent or at least mitigated at an airport.
I'd agree that landing at a known field with known surroundings and known conditions should not be much more dangerous than an airport, even if the surface itself is suspect. But that is a small part of the difference. A new to you airport can generate a bit of stress, but nothing like a field you are about to see up close for the very first time.
George Haeh
June 4th 20, 02:39 AM
One of the undisclosed advantages of an off airport landing is the (usual) lack of conflicting traffic.
Another hidden advantage of an ancient IFR rating is knowing how to talk to ATC.
Most Class D towers are happy to know how to reach the blip on their radar repeater.
But ATC can get a headache when every glider within 20 miles starts reporting position when they mention an unknown glider in a certain sector. Same for the pilot of concern who is trying to get a word in edgewise.
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