In-Flight Weather / GPS

[Jonathan Goodish]

I've searched the threads on Google, but given the emerging technologies
involved, I'd be interested in any thoughts or recent experience that
anyone can provide regarding the in-flight satellite weather in
particular.

We have a Cherokee with StrikeFinder (which works to avoid the big
stuff) and a handheld Garmin GPSMAP 195 (which is a fine GPS), but we've
been considering the added benefit of in-flight weather uplink.

I see that the AnywhereMap folks have an iPaq 4700-based system that
uses Bluetooth for connectivity between the receivers (both XM and GPS)
and the iPaq, but I am unsure about whether the iPaq will be adequately
sized (though it is yoke-mountable). I am also concerned about the
practicality of this system due to the small size of the PDA and the
battery life of the units involved.

The other option that we were considering is WxWorx on a Tablet PC.
This route would be more expensive because of the Tablet PC, but the
advantage would be that we could use the Tablet PC for other things, and
it would provide a much larger screen and easier targets to hit with the
pen in flight. I am not sure if the AnywhereMap folks have software
that will work on a Tablet PC, but they only appear to sell the PocketPC
bundles. I'm unclear on what WxWorx can provide other than the weather,
and how the GPS mapping functionality compares to AnywhereMap.

Or, we could just bag the whole thing right now and land when we
encounter questionable conditions, and continue to rely on the GPSMAP
195 for situational awareness. I'm not sure how much improved the GPS
functions of a PDA-based system would be, or whether in-flight weather
is worth the investment at this point.



Thanks,
JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
> I'm unclear on what WxWorx can provide other than the weather,
> and how the GPS mapping functionality compares to AnywhereMap.

If you get the WxWorx premium map package and plug a USB gps into the
tablet pc, you get a very useful moving map with METARs, TAFs, cloud
tops, winds aloft, lightning strikes and NEXRAD. Fabulous.

> Or, we could just bag the whole thing right now and land when we
> encounter questionable conditions,

I used to do that. I'd sure hate to go back to flying weather-blind.

> I'm not sure how much improved the GPS
> functions of a PDA-based system would be, or whether in-flight weather
> is worth the investment at this point.

I'm sure you can guess what my recommendation would be.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> "Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
> > I'm unclear on what WxWorx can provide other than the weather,
> > and how the GPS mapping functionality compares to AnywhereMap.
>
> If you get the WxWorx premium map package and plug a USB gps into the
> tablet pc, you get a very useful moving map with METARs, TAFs, cloud
> tops, winds aloft, lightning strikes and NEXRAD. Fabulous.


Weather is the primary reason that we're considering this at all.
However, how does the WxWorx + map package compare to Control Vision's
AnywhereWX + AnywhereMap products? The latter seem to be focused
primarily on the PDA segment, although they do have a XP product that
presumably works on a TabletPC.

And, is their an approach plates option with the WxWorx system? If
we're going to do this, being able to ditch the paper subscriptions
would help with the justification.



Thanks,
JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
> Weather is the primary reason that we're considering this at all.
> However, how does the WxWorx + map package compare to Control Vision's
> AnywhereWX + AnywhereMap products?

I'm not familiar enough with Control Vision's stuff to offer you a
comparison.

> And, is their an approach plates option with the WxWorx system?

I think these folks put it all together:
http://flightdeck.aero/products.asp or
http://www.navaero.com/t_pad/software_access.asp

> If
> we're going to do this, being able to ditch the paper subscriptions
> would help with the justification.

If you use your airplane for travel, the weather features alone are
justification enough, IMO.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Denny]

If your hobby and interests are computers and electronic gadgets, then
these systems are probably fascinating - but you really need two
pilots, one to stare at the gadgets and the other to look outside and
fly the airplane... But, if you actually fly for the love of aviating
they add little to nothing to your trip(s) and will cost significant
amounts of money to buy and to operate... The clutter in the cockpit
will be considerable with power cords/data cords to the screen, GPS,
etc...

In a few days we will air tour from Michigan to New Orleans, the gulf
coast of Florida down to Key West, then back up the atlantic coast to
the Carolinas and back to Michigan - in excess of 3000 air miles...
Weather briefings will had from Flight Service... Primary nav will be
Howie Keefe's Air Chart and MK-I eyeballs... Secondary nav will be
VOR/DME and 196/195 for avoiding restricted airspace; and if IFR/IMC is
encountered...... Works for me...

denny

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article om>,
"Denny" > wrote:
> If your hobby and interests are computers and electronic gadgets, then
> these systems are probably fascinating - but you really need two
> pilots, one to stare at the gadgets and the other to look outside and
> fly the airplane... But, if you actually fly for the love of aviating
> they add little to nothing to your trip(s) and will cost significant
> amounts of money to buy and to operate... The clutter in the cockpit
> will be considerable with power cords/data cords to the screen, GPS,
> etc...


I'm not looking for a toy, I'm looking for something that is worth the
money... because I'm ultra-cheap when it comes to this kind of stuff.
Obviously, I'm not convinced that it's worth it yet.

I will say that I think reliable weather service is worth a tremendous
amount if you fly IFR. I'm sorry, but in my experience flight service
is NOT reliable in the air. It took me 10 minutes on the right
frequency just to get a response from FSS/Fligh****ch on the radio, and
when I asked for winds aloft, I got surface winds... so then I had to
ask again. That all happened on a CAVU day; I can't imagine what kind
of service I would have received if the weather was down the tubes.

What I don't know is whether the XM weather on a PDA is practical enough
to warrant the money, because if I talk TabletPC, I'm talking a lot more
money for something that I probably don't need. Based on my research,
WxWorx on the Tablet looks more impressive than, say, AnywhereWx on the
PDA, but I doubt that an online photo does either product justice.



JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Denny" wrote:
> If your hobby and interests are computers and electronic gadgets, then
> these systems are probably fascinating - but you really need two
> pilots, one to stare at the gadgets and the other to look outside and
> fly the airplane... But, if you actually fly for the love of aviating
> they add little to nothing to your trip(s)

Nuts.

If you use a light airplane for regular travel down South, having live
NEXRAD aboard is the greatest thing since flaps.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Denny]

Jon and Dan, needs and wants are perceived items... So, your and my
needs and wants are likely to be different... Gadgets are nice... I was
an early adopter of GPS, buying the manufacturer's prototype unit, on
display at Oshkosh, the PRONAV 100 (later became the Garmin 100) the
year they came out... I used that unit (with help from MU2 Mike, Thanks
Mike!) until just recently when it died for the second and final
time... Currently I have a 195 and a 196 on the yokes... I have looked
at the various panel mount units up through the WAAS enabled stuff, but
I don't see enough improvement in-flight to justify the cost... A VFR
GPS and a VOR/ILS/DME gets me where I need to be 99% of the time, at
minimum expense... If they shut down Flight Service tomorrow then I
will buy the latest and greatest in in-flight WEATHER / WAAS GPS / COM
/ NAV / AUTOPILOT / COFFEE DISPENSER mounted in the panel...

cheers ... denny

BTW, Flight service is dependent upon the person and the work load...
If they are hammered then you will have to wait your turn... I have to
say that over some four decades of using them actively that they are
always there when I really need them...

[Dan Luke]

"Denny" wrote:
> your and my needs and wants are likely to be different...

Just so, Denny. But that's quite a different tone than "But, if you
actually fly for the love of aviating [weather displays] add little to
nothing to your trip."

> I have looked at the various panel mount units up through the
> WAAS enabled stuff, but I don't see enough improvement
> in-flight to justify the cost...

Your and my needs and wants are likely to be different.

For Angel Flight missions, I have found an approach certified GPS
necessary. On two occasions the missions simply couldn't have been
completed without it. As far as XM weather gear I use is concerned,
there have been missions I wouldn't even have attempted without it.

> BTW, Flight service is dependent upon the person and the work load...
> If they are hammered then you will have to wait your turn... I have to
> say that over some four decades of using them actively that they are
> always there when I really need them...

Same here (well, only 0.8 decades). But new technology has made trying
to find a way across 300 miles of blooming CBs using eyeballs and
Fligh****ch more challenging--and dangerous-- than necessary. It's
really no different than your use of GPS to stay out of R- areas: it's
just a better way than we used to have.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article . com>,
"Denny" > wrote:

> Jon and Dan, needs and wants are perceived items... So, your and my
> needs and wants are likely to be different... Gadgets are nice... I was
> an early adopter of GPS, buying the manufacturer's prototype unit, on
> display at Oshkosh, the PRONAV 100 (later became the Garmin 100) the
> year they came out... I used that unit (with help from MU2 Mike, Thanks
> Mike!) until just recently when it died for the second and final
> time... Currently I have a 195 and a 196 on the yokes... I have looked
> at the various panel mount units up through the WAAS enabled stuff, but
> I don't see enough improvement in-flight to justify the cost... A VFR
> GPS and a VOR/ILS/DME gets me where I need to be 99% of the time, at
> minimum expense... If they shut down Flight Service tomorrow then I
> will buy the latest and greatest in in-flight WEATHER / WAAS GPS / COM
> / NAV / AUTOPILOT / COFFEE DISPENSER mounted in the panel...


I agree that, so far that I've seen, there's nothing super-compelling
about the PDA or Tablet GPS capability over the GPSMAP 195 that I have
now. In fact, I'm more confident in the performance of the 195 than a
Windows-based software package.

The big deal for me is the weather. My wife and I are IFR pilots who
make every attempt to stay out of IMC, but sometimes it isn't possible.
When I need to know what's going on up ahead and make a decision on
where to go to get around it, request new clearances, etc., I don't have
10 minutes to wait on flight service to tell me what their
interpretation is, and then another 10 minutes for the controller who's
swamped to tell me whether he can give me the amended clearance or not.
If I get a new route that's different than the one that I requested, I
now may have to go back to flight service to find out what kind of fun
I'm in for on my new route.

I guess it comes down to what type of flying you do or intend to do. If
you can take your time, be extra-conservative, and relaxed in going from
point A to B, you probably don't need the weather. My wife and I find
it difficult to find time for vacation, so when we decide to go, we need
to go, as long as things are nuts. We won't make a flight unless we are
confident that we can make it safely, and the weather may equip us to
make a better decision one way or the other.

I also set out on this project to determine the practicality of giving
up paper charts and plates for something electronic. Even on a Tablet,
I'm not sure that the flight planning/electronic charting stuff is up to
snuff quite yet. I'm sure Jepp's package is great, but Jepp charges a
premium for perks that I just don't need. If I don't use the system for
GPS and I don't use it for charts, all of a sudden I end up with a very
expensive system for in-flight weather. Is it worth it? I don't yet
know. I think I'll have to bug some local pilots to see their
installations before I'm convinced.


JKG

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:
> Same here (well, only 0.8 decades). But new technology has made trying
> to find a way across 300 miles of blooming CBs using eyeballs and
> Fligh****ch more challenging--and dangerous-- than necessary. It's
> really no different than your use of GPS to stay out of R- areas: it's
> just a better way than we used to have.

Dan,

I take it you're running this on a Tablet. Have you had any altitude
problems with the Tablet? Do you have an opinion on the practicality of
the PDA solutions for weather?


Thanks,
JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I take it you're running this on a Tablet.

No, but that's what I'm going to change to. See this same thread in r.a.ifr.

Denny's point about the fuss and muss of portable NEXRAD weather displays is
valid, but it's still early days for the technology. I'm using a Sony
notebook with the Xbrite screen and a USB GPS. This setup works great but is
clunky to handle and has too many cables. I'm going to convert the whole
thing to Bluetooth and use a Fujitsu tablet PC for an MMI--totally wireless.

> Do you have an opinion on the practicality of
> the PDA solutions for weather?

Yes: they're too small to see or use easily. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by the
much larger, higher resolution screen of my Sony notebook.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[SeeAndAvoid]

Howdy,
I have the AnywhereWX setup, if you have any specific questions or
are in the CO area I'll show it to you. I've been extremely happy with it.
Just a couple comments on other comments...

It's not too small, anything bigger on the yoke would block too much,
and I can't imagine using it as much as I do being anywhere but on the
yoke - as in, easily within reach.

The wires, etc. I have the bluetooth gps, so only wire is if I want it
powered/charged. I use the satphone, bluetooth is an option for it but
I found it to be flakey and don't use that. I have a split wire coming out
of the yoke mount - one going to the satphone, one going to the cigarette
lighter. It's tucked away and not an issue. I use the ram mount for the
satphone on the left front window. I want to see the display on the
phone to make sure it's charging, it has some battery life, and what kind
of signal I'm getting. Also, and this is important as I pay by the minute,
is that if the Ipaq drops the signal or connection to the phone, the phone
may not actually hang-up, which can be costly if you're not paying
attention.

Satphone vs XM. XM wasn't an option when I got my setup, or was just
getting started. I liked the emergency backup of a satphone anyway, and
the satphone is a 2-way device, some things you can do with it that the
XM RECEIVER can't do, like airmail, which is something I use on
occasion. I think there are some other differences as well, some that may
matter to you, some that may not.

Cost. I wanted something bigger originally, but those sure are a lot more
money. In my house there is a little justification necessary on these kind
of expenses, and rightly so. I do use the PDA outside of aviation, so
that's
good. I already had a decent laptop, so a tablet would be a hard sell.

Approach plates. Those just looked too small on the PDA, where the
GPS/WX, to me anyway, was more than acceptable. The cost was
another issue. Bogging down the PDA with more stuff was another.
Trying to fly day/vfr most of the time, even though the airplane and I
are both IFR rated, was another factor. Just didnt seem worth it for
the amount of IFR I do.

The PDA is Windows, so sometimes it becomes a "hobby" compared
to a standalone GPS like a 195. I almost got a 195 years back, got
an Airmap300 instead. Neither hold a candle to AnywhereMap/PDA
option, except for that "hobby" thing I guess.

Useability/Usefulness. We just did a 5,000 mile trip last summer and I
used the hell out of this system. I called FSS once, and that was just to
verify what my PDA was showing me and I filed an IFR flight plan with
them. I had family tracking this huge trip, so the Airmail feature was used
often to send them a link to a map showing where we currently were. The
METARS helped in making changes to the trip. The Nexrad and lightning
of course was great, and I got to see that yellow is something worth
avoiding.
For this trip, and I'm sure future big ones, the weather display added
tons to the trip. Granted, missions are different, but I can't imagine
doing
that trip and making it successful without that weather system. We had
specific goals in mind and weren't going to be in those areas again any
time soon.

If weather really is the big deal for you, then any of the mentioned
products
should already be in your possession. If you're not sure of the accuracy,
don't worry, it's pretty darn accurate. When AnywhereWX's satellite
imagery showed clouds coming up (with tops information), it was right.
Where it showed lightning, there was lightning. The METARs matched
the AWOS's. The Nexrad was dead on. Now only if my TrafficScope
was that reliable....but that's another thread.

Chris

[Dan Luke]

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote:
> If you're not sure of the accuracy,
> don't worry, it's pretty darn accurate. When AnywhereWX's satellite
> imagery showed clouds coming up (with tops information), it was right.
> Where it showed lightning, there was lightning. The METARs matched
> the AWOS's. The Nexrad was dead on.

Gotta love it. It's cool to fly through light, scattered showers and see the
the rain shafts appear *exactly* where they're depicted on the screen. A
real confidence-builder for those times when truly nasty stuff is about.

Down here, t'storms are an almost daily pain in the butt 5 months out of the
year. They used to make any long trip iffy for me. Now, with NEXRAD, I know
where they are, where they've been, where they're going, whether they're
growing or fading, and where the "outs" are every minute I'm in the air.
Life is good.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[SeeAndAvoid]

And it makes you look pretty smart, or clairvoyant, to your non-pilot
passengers too! I wish I did something on that trip last summer: taking
comparison pictures of the pda and the actual weather. It was mid-June,
mid-day, from Athens to Orlando, there was a solid line of thunderstorms
from, well, Athens to Orlando, and beyond. We wanted to land in
Augusta coming down from D.C., but the combination of a huge
G5 Summit TFR and the weather and offshore special use airspace made
that impossible (AWX shows TFR's and updates them too, btw).
If we'd made Augusta, and we couldve without the TFR's, we'd been
east of the line and been good all the way to Orlando, but we couldnt
so we got into Athens quick and the storm moved in and flooded parts
of the city.

After it moved off we headed south but kept getting pushed west because
of not only what we were seeing with our eyes, but confirming with the
Nexrad/lightning strikes. So we were getting stuck on the west side
of this wall and I could hear everyone on freq struggling with it. But
the nexrad showed a gap around Ocala, sure enough I could see through
it and went for it, and made it through. A Delta jet wasnt so lucky
and tried to just punch through the wall and got hit by lightning. After
I reported that gap (atc saw it but wasn't sure if it really was a gap)
some others went for it as well. Without the pda, I'm not sure I wouldve
gone past South Carolina. That wouldve been a hard sell to the family
as we were Disneyworld bound. I did get some pics of the building storms
which we were able to outclimb for a while, then I just got tired of
climbing.
Thing is, someday I'll get an IFR GPS, not so sure I'd ditch this setup I
have now though. It does things that panel mounts 10x its price cant/wont.
And it's one hell of a backup in case of total electrical failure, and the
satphone will work in the boonies that cells wont, and you can legally
make phonecalls in the air with it, too.

Hey Dan, I think I told you this earlier, but I had originally planned on
going to BFM with a night or two in New Orleans. Instead we did
lunch in Monroeville (talk about close to nowhere) and made
a quick overnighter in Shreveport. Someday I want to check out
Dauphin Island, I bet you've been there. Did you get another airplane?

Chris

[Dan Luke]

"SeeAndAvoid" wrote:
>

> Thing is, someday I'll get an IFR GPS, not so sure I'd ditch this
> setup I
> have now though.

Oh, heck no!

> It does things that panel mounts 10x its price cant/wont.
> And it's one hell of a backup in case of total electrical failure, and
> the
> satphone will work in the boonies that cells wont, and you can legally
> make phonecalls in the air with it, too.

Yep. Certified GPS boxes are for flying approaches. For a lot less you
can keep up with the coolest technology using portable gear.

> Someday I want to check out
> Dauphin Island, I bet you've been there.

Yep. Nice little airstrip there that sticks right out into Mississippi
Sound. Like doing carrier landings if you use rwy 12.

> Did you get another airplane?

Working on it. I've got Bonanza fever again, and this time I think it's
for real.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Denny]

Working on it. I've got Bonanza fever again, and this time I think
it's
for real.
************************************************** ****************************

Bring your wallet!

Cheers ... Denny

[Roger]

On 14 Apr 2005 04:34:43 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:

>
>
>Working on it. I've got Bonanza fever again, and this time I think
>it's
>for real.

A36, B36TC, or maybe a nice F33-C?
IO550 conversion, 1/2 inch windshield .. If you go new, the 36s are
now available with the glass panel. Of course for about a quarter
million less you can have an SR22 that is faster at the lower
altitudes. (and you don't have to remember to put the gear down) OTOH
I think the operating cost of the 36 is actually a bit cheaper than
the SR-22.

Remember 84 and after 36s have the gear and flap switches like every
one else and dual yokes through the panel instead of that big cross
bar. F-33s did not change.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>************************************************** ****************************
>
>Bring your wallet!
>
>Cheers ... Denny

[Dan Luke]

"Denny" wrote:
> Working on it. I've got Bonanza fever again, and this time I think
> it's
> for real.
> ************************************************** ****************************
>
> Bring your wallet!

Hmmm, let's see: retirement...Bonanza...Bonanza...retirement.
Decisions,decisions.

[Roger]

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:28:23 -0400, Jonathan Goodish
> wrote:

>In article >,
> "Dan Luke" > wrote:
>
>> "Jonathan Goodish" wrote:
>> > I'm unclear on what WxWorx can provide other than the weather,
>> > and how the GPS mapping functionality compares to AnywhereMap.
>>
>> If you get the WxWorx premium map package and plug a USB gps into the
>> tablet pc, you get a very useful moving map with METARs, TAFs, cloud
>> tops, winds aloft, lightning strikes and NEXRAD. Fabulous.
>
>
>Weather is the primary reason that we're considering this at all.
>However, how does the WxWorx + map package compare to Control Vision's
>AnywhereWX + AnywhereMap products? The latter seem to be focused
>primarily on the PDA segment, although they do have a XP product that
>presumably works on a TabletPC.

I've been told they will shortly have a TabletPC version with Weather,
map, and approach charts. Bluetooth/WiFi to cut down cockpit clutter.
Just shy of $4 grand.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>And, is their an approach plates option with the WxWorx system? If
>we're going to do this, being able to ditch the paper subscriptions
>would help with the justification.
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Roger" wrote:
> A36, B36TC, or maybe a nice F33-C?

A 1984-'89 A36. That's when the modern panel and yokes appeared.

> Remember 84 and after 36s have the gear and flap switches like every
> one else and dual yokes through the panel instead of that big cross
> bar.

The panel change is the big thing. Older models have all the radios way
over on the right with the yoke bar in the way. Very awkward for me, as
I have limited use of my right hand.

> F-33s did not change.

Which is too bad, 'cause it takes them out of the running.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM